Any Trigger FAQs (or masters...) out there?

[winterglaive]

Hey everyone, I'm new to the boards.

After restarting SC/BW out of the blue and finishing the story mode, I've got the urge to develop a sequel campaign to pick up where the story left off. Back when I played the game (several years ago) frequently, I made a number of UMS maps, so I'm experienced with map-making in general.

After I had finished a fully-functional first mission of this project, I ran into some trigger issues that I hadn't planned on because I honestly thought they'd be easy to do... little did I know! I guess I'm wondering if there's a good trigger guide out there, or at least someone who might have an idea how to do some of these things.

First off, I downloaded both the X-tra Editor and ScmDraft2 to work with. Both are great, but don't really offer me any solutions in the trigger area (unless I'm missing something, which is totally possible). I'm mainly using X-tra, but there doesn't appear to be any compatibility issues between the two so it doesn't really matter which one I use if it comes to that. Other concerns I have may not even be trigger-related. Let me throw out some stuff I'm trying to do:

Having a defined unit attack another defined unit, regardless of ally status. I'm trying to get two "ally" units of different colors to fight. The only Action event I can find that's close is the Order event, which lets you issue a command to move, patrol, or attack... but doesn't let you specify a particular unit, just a general location. One way I figured to get around it was to just make the unit I want attacked be on an enemy team. But is that necessary? I don't want to do it that way, because then any of the player units nearby will attack as well. I could simply isolate this little scene as was done in the Brood War campaign so that no player units could be there in the first place, but only if I have to.

Next thing. I create a map revealer in a location, then remove it in the same trigger after some dialogue. But the 'remove' part doesn't work (i.e., that area is still without fog of war even when no units are there). I have no clue about this one.

Last thing (for now...) is insanely frustrating: how do you make Zerg units rescueable when they're burrowed? I can't figure this out. Or, if I have to get around this, how do I order burrowed units to unburrow as is so frequently seen in the game's official campaign?

I think the main issue that takes priority right now is having an Action event that lets you issue any command to any unit (within ability, obviously) with any unit as a target. I'm hoping this doesn't require advanced stuff (advanced meaning actual scripting), unless it's easy to install and relatively safe.

Thanks for anyone that can field any of my many problems. :p

EDIT: OK, there is a FAQ. At least I got the map revealer thing resolved.

[Morth]

Fight regardless of ally status? I don't think that's possible... You can just have a location follow the unit, and then change that specific unit to a different faction that have ally status set to enemy when you want them to fight.

[NpnArbiter]

Having a defined unit attack another defined unit, regardless of ally status. I'm trying to get two "ally" units of different colors to fight. The only Action event I can find that's close is the Order event, which lets you issue a command to move, patrol, or attack... but doesn't let you specify a particular unit, just a general location. One way I figured to get around it was to just make the unit I want attacked be on an enemy team. But is that necessary? I don't want to do it that way, because then any of the player units nearby will attack as well. I could simply isolate this little scene as was done in the Brood War campaign so that no player units could be there in the first place, but only if I have to.
You could give the attacking units to computers that are allied to everyone except eachother and all the other teams are allied to them (Set Ally Status)

[NpnArbiter]

Also I was about to ask a trigger question. I wouldn't want to waste a thread so...

Is there any way to make a previous scenario effect the next? You know that one campaign where if you infest a certain number of command centers you get them in the next scenario? (basically what the trigger would look like)
^READ ME SO I DON'T WASTE A THREAD^

[winterglaive]

Also I was about to ask a trigger question. I wouldn't want to waste a thread so...

Is there any way to make a previous scenario effect the next? You know that one campaign where if you infest a certain number of command centers you get them in the next scenario? (basically what the trigger would look like)
^READ ME SO I DON'T WASTE A THREAD^

I've wondered about that too. The only thing I can come up with is to make multiple copies of the same scenario and make the adjustments that concern the previous scenario manually. Then just change the "Next Scenario" trigger to switch to the appropriate map. So for that one Zerg level you mentioned, you'd have five copies of the same map: one with 1 infested CC, the next with 2 CCs, 3 CCs, 4 CCs, and the last copy with none. But that seems a bit impractical...

Anyway, thanks for your suggestion! :)

[SilverCrusader]

Last thing (for now...) is insanely frustrating: how do you make Zerg units rescueable when they're burrowed? I can't figure this out. Or, if I have to get around this, how do I order burrowed units to unburrow as is so frequently seen in the game's official campaign?
Two words: You can't.
The bastards at Blizzard have their own special editor and we got the downgraded version. We are limited to alot of the cool stuff. For instance, heroes are always teal, unlike the rest of your troops. And they have much better AI Scripts.
I'm still harrassing them for it...
If you want an easy way to make them "burrow", just create units that are burrowed and remove the ones that aren't (if you could create sprites you could make it seem flawless).

Is there any way to make a previous scenario effect the next? You know that one campaign where if you infest a certain number of command centers you get them in the next scenario? (basically what the trigger would look like)
Sadly, no, there isn't, you can't effect different maps, another side effect of our downgraded editor... even though I'm pretty sure SCM Draft 2 comes close, it has a long way to go.

[NpnArbiter]

*sighs* Ok I was going to do this rebel troop that started the next level with they're old units and whatever civilians they persuaded to join (An scv needs 1 civ, a tank needs 2, etc)

[SilverCrusader]

your trying to do some pretty advanced stuff there.

I'll be glad to help you on how you might be able to do this.

Alright, so you can't directly affect the next map... but you can affect what map you go to next. (have you caught on yet?)
So just change where if they have exactly 1 civ left have them go to map1, and if they have exactly 2 civs go to map2. These maps can be totally identical, but have the adjustments you need in each one. It shouldn't take more than renaming the map.

[NpnArbiter]

Hmmm.... sounds time consuming but I guess it I made a few hundred copies I would be good witha few changes. Maybe I can make some out of scenario "battles" that make the units a diffrent combonation. I made the ten missions already, maybe a good 2 months of trig edit would do it.


On a side note, If you place a neutral zerg unit, double click it, check burrow, you will have a burrowed unit.
Now the triggers part, make something like this for them to be "rescued"

Condition:
-Bring atleast 1 men to "Burrowed Zerglings"
Action:
-Give all zerglings owned by (neutral player) at "Burrowed Zerglings" to (you)
-Run AI Script Junkyard Dog

The AI script part might unburrow them, I know it makes them go crazy. Experiment. Maybe remove them and then remake them?

[DarkMirror]

Oh, and for the ally attack...
Try using AI script at location(set units at location to enemy)

[Basan]

Hey everyone, I'm new to the boards.

Fist of all WinterGlaive, welcome to WB's. I hope that you enjoy your stay enough to keep it merry and plentiful. Zen sounding I know, but it's kinda my trademark while others may use lolz. :D
And it's such a huge post that I'm gonna slice it into tiny bits so it can be easily diggested. :)

After restarting SC/BW out of the blue and finishing the story mode, I've got the urge to develop a sequel campaign to pick up where the story left off. Back when I played the game (several years ago) frequently, I made a number of UMS maps, so I'm experienced with map-making in general.

Don't judge me harshly and don't take offence by my words but if you're an experienced mapper some of these (like the map revealers thingy) would be easy as pie. Around here we don't mind to assist others from scratch if they're willing to give the effort for it (as you seem to be) and they're humble to admit it. ;)

After I had finished a fully-functional first mission of this project, I ran into some trigger issues that I hadn't planned on because I honestly thought they'd be easy to do... little did I know! I guess I'm wondering if there's a good trigger guide out there, or at least someone who might have an idea how to do some of these things.

First off, I downloaded both the X-tra Editor and ScmDraft2 to work with. Both are great, but don't really offer me any solutions in the trigger area (unless I'm missing something, which is totally possible). I'm mainly using X-tra, but there doesn't appear to be any compatibility issues between the two so it doesn't really matter which one I use if it comes to that. Other concerns I have may not even be trigger-related. Let me throw out some stuff I'm trying to do:

Both those are excellent choices, if I may so myself. But imho you should start with SCXE because it's easier to get acquainted to due to similarities between it and StarEdit, in which it was based upon.
Leave SCMDraft 2 for later and/or those finishing extra touches you might need to do.

Having a defined unit attack another defined unit, regardless of ally status. I'm trying to get two "ally" units of different colors to fight. The only Action event I can find that's close is the Order event, which lets you issue a command to move, patrol, or attack... but doesn't let you specify a particular unit, just a general location. One way I figured to get around it was to just make the unit I want attacked be on an enemy team. But is that necessary? I don't want to do it that way, because then any of the player units nearby will attack as well. I could simply isolate this little scene as was done in the Brood War campaign so that no player units could be there in the first place, but only if I have to.

Well, for this one I need a few more details because there is a wide myriad of ways to do this.

1st - Are both those units heroes? Being so, can solve this easier (see answer to 2nd point).
If not, I'll have to think of something along the lines of colouring other AI players the same so they look like from the same forces as the two that are fighting one another.

2nd - Are those two units AI controlled even if apparently allies?
If so, we can easily set a couple of stalking locations and triggers. Then, through the order script to make one hunt after the other.

3rd - Do you want one to always kill the other (thus easily being able to trigger it through a cinematic)?
If that is the case, we can establish an arena area and go easy on the triggers and also save locations.

Next thing. I create a map revealer in a location, then remove it in the same trigger after some dialogue. But the 'remove' part doesn't work (i.e., that area is still without fog of war even when no units are there). I have no clue about this one.

Question solved it seems. *Does huge satisfying grin*

Last thing (for now...) is insanely frustrating: how do you make Zerg units rescueable when they're burrowed? I can't figure this out. Or, if I have to get around this, how do I order burrowed units to unburrow as is so frequently seen in the game's official campaign?

To the best of my knowledge that is one of the things that are harder to do, if not impossible. But we can always swindle the game into doing your bidding. :smirk:

For that you'll need to have two players (one rescuable and the other foe) and both to have the same colour. You place on the map the foe one and make sure that they have the Burrow ability enabled by default. Then you place a slightly wider location than the space they occupy over it. Next, you'll have to make a trigger that when you enter in the area and those foe units start to attack you they'll be given to the rescuable player. It's not the same I know, but that's the best idea I could make of it.

That or make'm allied with ya instead (same player colour still) and to follow you around when you enter the area. As soon as they're all out of the ground make the trigger I said above to give'em to the rescuable player.

I think the main issue that takes priority right now is having an Action event that lets you issue any command to any unit (within ability, obviously) with any unit as a target. I'm hoping this doesn't require advanced stuff (advanced meaning actual scripting), unless it's easy to install and relatively safe.

You mean like similarly to WC3-TFT? If that's so, it can't be done in SC-BW. Alas, it's a far older game than that one and hence that the game engine wasn't as advanced as the WC3-TFT one. :P

[SilverCrusader]

Basan hit the nail right on.

The AI script part might unburrow them, I know it makes them go crazy. Experiment. Maybe remove them and then remake them?

Experimenting is fun, you should try it, you might find something new.

[NpnArbiter]

Oh, and for the ally attack...
Try using AI script at location(set units at location to enemy)
:/ I am sorry to say that setting units at a location to enemies will just unally you completely. As I said before you have to change ownership of the units to two unallied coms that are allied and allied back by everyone else, or you could give all your OTHER units to a neutral computer. You get it?

And I think the "advanced editor" Blizzard has is called making the game and knowing every single piece of coding. Whatever they can do is probally like an ingame mod.

-----
On a side note if you want to give burrowed lurkers, I figured out a little piece of information, try making two locations (One is half of the entrance area and one is the other) and telling the units to move to the opposite location (I wishs you could create/remove sprites because alot of burrowing dust could cover all of the movement)

[winterglaive]

Basan, thank you very much for the comprehensive reply!

In regards to the map revealer thing, in my maps years ago I never actually needed to remove them. They were mostly RPGs. :p

I decided to take NpnArbiter's suggestion about alliance status--have the Player allied to two different computers, but making those computers enemies. That little cutscene works perfectly now.

As for the burrowing thing, I'll just have to experiment as suggested. It's not terribly crucial, just an aesthetic thing.

It's unfortunate there's no comprehensive "Command" event in the triggers, but as you said Basan, there's often a way around it (to either trick the game or the player!).

Thanks again for everyone's assistance. I'll be back with more sometime, I'm sure. :)

[Basan]

Basan, thank you very much for the comprehensive reply!
...
I decided to take NpnArbiter's suggestion about alliance status--have the Player allied to two different computers, but making those computers enemies. That little cutscene works perfectly now.

Not a problem at all. Afterall, we're here to help one another when we can... or so I think and try to do. ;)

And I thought to have forgotten something in my reply and the ally/foe status triggers were it. It was to set the foe status between AI players (just not to mention the obvious ally one with the human that you alluded to).

As for the burrowing thing, I'll just have to experiment as suggested. It's not terribly crucial, just an aesthetic thing.

Try that with AI allied units that unburrow when you reach location and then quickly setting'em to rescuable. Both being the same colour will cover the aesthetic aspect thing of it, I think. :)

It's unfortunate there's no comprehensive "Command" event in the triggers, but as you said Basan, there's often a way around it (to either trick the game or the player!).

The conditions are what sets up the trigger to do what they're told in the actions, so that's pretty much easier to grasp (particularly when compared to WC3-TFT editing :P).

Thanks again for everyone's assistance. I'll be back with more sometime, I'm sure. :)

And I believe that we'll be here for it. *Wink, wink* :D

[SilverCrusader]

don't try anything too fancy.. it might not work out well... maps tend to do that alot...

[Obscura]

I figured out a great solution for the 2 units fighting each other. Try making a large(8x8ish) location around "unit a" and A move location trigger to the unit then have a cinematic trigger go off when the other enters it. And if you want "unit B" to hunt "unit A" down just add a patrol to trigger.

Tell me if thats what you were looking for.

[winterglaive]

I figured out a great solution for the 2 units fighting each other. Try making a large(8x8ish) location around "unit a" and A move location trigger to the unit then have a cinematic trigger go off when the other enters it. And if you want "unit B" to hunt "unit A" down just add a patrol to trigger.

Tell me if thats what you were looking for.
That sounds reasonable, although having the alliance status set correctly between the (opposing) computers and the Player works perfectly for this scene. Basically Computer A's unit gets killed by Computer B's unit. They are set to enemies, and both are allied with the Player as NpnArbiter and Basan suggested.

But who knows... could have a scene later on that this might be more appropriate. I'm trying to keep the cutscenes as straightforward (but still interesting and fun to watch) as possible.

[MidnightGladius]

To rescue a burrowed Zerg unit:

Like everyone else has said, there is no simple way to do it, but this simulates the effect fairly well and simply.

(Do this if there are only a few Z units to be rescued:)

- Create a 1x1 location over each of the units to be rescued (or, if they're in clumps, one larger location over the clump), and make it so that when some player brings units to that location, give the units to the player and play a transmission with the rescue sound (found under sound/misc). This will also create the "beeping-circle" effect automatically.

Tedious, but it works if you don't have upwards of ~12 units to rescue.

Sorry, but that was the simplest way I could think of doing it. Basan's also works, but can look kind of quirky, and the two both use up a location, so it's basically up to you.

[Basan]

To rescue a burrowed Zerg unit:

Like everyone else has said, there is no simple way to do it, but this simulates the effect fairly well and simply.

(Do this if there are only a few Z units to be rescued:)

- Create a 1x1 location over each of the units to be rescued (or, if they're in clumps, one larger location over the clump), and make it so that when some player brings units to that location, give the units to the player and play a transmission with the rescue sound (found under sound/misc). This will also create the "beeping-circle" effect automatically.

Tedious, but it works if you don't have upwards of ~12 units to rescue.
...

How on Earth didn't I thought of that? :P And, as always, am glad to see ya around again, Middy'. :)

[MidnightGladius]

Heh, the eye of an outsider brings with it perception. And it's good to see you, too, Basan.

[targetgamer]

As said before, you cant order unit X to attack unit Y if both are allied. I think the above reasoning is great as it is with having different comps ally status etc.

One thing you might want to consider, if this is a movie sequence, is to do like the BW sequences. Give all units to computers, so no players can interrupt. You can set ally/unally status as you wish, and all players that was nearby can still stand there, either as a comp player, or as neutral players until teh sequence is over. Remember that you should change colors on players, so the players dont see the player ownerships change.

For the rescue part, I didnt know there was problems rescuing burrowed units. Are you sure it isnt just a matter of lack of detectors?

If not, and you want the lings to pop up the ground, you could start by having them owned by a hostile comp, and when certain switchest etc is set and they come close to your X unit, you turn their ownership to the rescuable player. That would make them pop up, run towards your guy, become rescuable, and rescued, the *real* way. They will also retain the color that the rescuable player had, if you want to use different colors.

If you just pretend they are rescued, they will have your colors.

Someone mentioned that Blizz have an ultra editor that can do anything. Well, they probably does, but all the things that exist in the maps they released have been, and can be duplicated. So any secret maps they never released, we can perhaps not dupicate that, but everthing that IS released, CAN be duplicated. All the AI scripts and triggers got to exist in the game, right? ;) And the more advanced tools we have today uses all the resources that is available to the released game.

[Basan]

For the rescue part, I didnt know there was problems rescuing burrowed units. Are you sure it isnt just a matter of lack of detectors?

If not, and you want the lings to pop up the ground, you could start by having them owned by a hostile comp, and when certain switchest etc is set and they come close to your X unit, you turn their ownership to the rescuable player. That would make them pop up, run towards your guy, become rescuable, and rescued, the *real* way. They will also retain the color that the rescuable player had, if you want to use different colors.

Yes, there is a problem with it, being the probable exception the rescue of their main building (Hatchery, Lair or Hive). No matter how many detectors you might bring along it still won't work. Hence that, the suggestions we already spoke of.

Someone mentioned that Blizz have an ultra editor that can do anything. Well, they probably does, but all the things that exist in the maps they released have been, and can be duplicated. So any secret maps they never released, we can perhaps not dupicate that, but everthing that IS released, CAN be duplicated. All the AI scripts and triggers got to exist in the game, right? ;) And the more advanced tools we have today uses all the resources that is available to the released game.

And no, we still can't replicate all of their stuff to the best of my knowledge. The known exception is in the "Deception" map, in which at some point of play the doodads change from alright to busted. And, if recall it right, then some foe units appear at that location in an ambush. I still haven't found a trigger script or whatever tool that can do that replacement, even though I've tried because have liked to do it in an installation map of mine.
Although I must acknowledge that initially it was that map who made me look for other editors and that was because of the low energy that Ghost abilities use in that map. ;)

[SilverCrusader]

their editor can do alot, but we can't do 1/4 of what they can.
They have AI Scripts we don't (yes level-specific ones), and can edit virtually anypart of the game they want, because their editor is open code, so yes, they can do anything.