What kind of build is that?!

[h0bgawblin]

This thread is for posting your builds that make people confused. here's mine

use all 5 starting peasants for this build in human mirror

4 speed build alter
1 farm
que 1 to gold mine
Shift 3 of the alter to gold mine and 1 to speed build the farm
Shift farm to wood
Que 1 to wood
3rd out of hall build barracks
continue the 4k.tod build from there.

The idea is to have an archmage IN his base on a small map before he even has a footy out. Blizzard harrass for the lawl

[Schwitzer]

But this puts you behind in both resources and tech. Can you really dish out enough damage with a level 1 Archmage to justify it?

[RedRagToAnOrc]

I have a couple of funny ones;

Speed Headhunter w/ Tavern Hero

All 5 to gold, first back to wood

First out of main to gold

Second out of main to Burrow

Peon that was on wood builds War Mill at 130 wood

Third peon out of main to Barracks

Fourth peon out of main to wood

Fifth peon out of main to Altar

Remaining peons to wood (7 in total on wood)

Burrow at 160 gold

First Headhunter to Tavern, hire hero

Shop after second Headhunter

Tech at 23 food.

Dual Barracks Tavern Hero (w/ Optional Burrow Rush)

All 5 to gold

First peon out of main builds Burrow

Rally all peons to wood (total of 7 on wood)

Peon that finishes Burrow builds Altar

Barracks goes up at same time as Altar

Second Barracks goes up as soon as resources allow afterwards

Send peon to Tavern when Altar is at about 400HP

Second Burrow asap after

Pump Grunts to 29 food then optional Burrow/Tower rush

--

Funny builds are usually quite enjoyable but never really get you anywhere, because most non-cookie builds have rather large flaws in them. Take the speed Headhunter build, you get a late hero and not much opportunity to scout. The second build doesn't get you a first Grunt out until after your Tavern hero reaches your base.

Still, they're fun to use for novelty purposes. :)

[h0bgawblin]

But this puts you behind in both resources and tech. Can you really dish out enough damage with a level 1 Archmage to justify it?

It depends, I can delay thier tech REALLY well because I deprive them of gold. Also, the tech isn't that much slower(I sacrifice footies and build extra peasants. teching with 24 food). The harrass is NASTY, if I remember correctly, insane computer handels the harrass better than any opponent i've faced. Also it gives me a chance to use the blood mage 2nd. However, realisticly, it's not as good as the cookie cutter. It's way more fun though!

This build is called, is this guy high or something?

It takes after the AKM, however it's not actually as good. I use this against people who suck royally.

4k.tod build
replace barracks with a lumber mill
blood mage
zeplin
burn a hole in the back of his base and build towers there. Then burn the trees down and let the towers do thier thing. It's priceless.

[Blacker]

Here's mine,maybe not confused,but pretty strange...I'm always playing with Undead:

3 acolytes and 1 ghoul:
1st acolyte to harvest gold and ghoul to trees.
2nd acolyte to build Altar and 3rd to build Ziggurat and than both to Gold Mine.
In Necropolis I train 1 more acolyte and immediately to GM (gold mine).
Than I wait few seconds to gain gold for Crypt.
After Crypt,I train 1 more acolyte.
(In interim I train in Altar Dreadlord)
Then,when I've learned 215 gold here's a Graveyard
Now,when Crypt is built,I spending gold ONLY for ghouls.
After some time,I trained 6 ghouls and researched Cannibalize
Now I build 1 more ziggurat, Tomb of Relics and going to attack creeps
In base,now I'm spending all gold and lumber to train 4 Crypt Fiends.When they are trained,I order ghouls to harvest lumber and with DL and 4 CF...to gain lvls.
Now all gold and lumbers I'll use for ziggurats when food is = 100.
Again,I'm going to train 6 ghouls for combats
And I Upgrate Necro. to Halls of the Dead. :D

[GenocideAlive]

It depends, I can delay thier tech REALLY well because I deprive them of gold. Also, the tech isn't that much slower(I sacrifice footies and build extra peasants. teching with 24 food). The harrass is NASTY, if I remember correctly, insane computer handels the harrass better than any opponent i've faced.
Unfortunately, one well-placed Arcane hoses your entire idea. Since you need to channel to get effect from Blizzard, you'll have to stand still while the Arcane burns your entire mana pool. You'll get two if you're lucky. Bloodmage is far superior, because he can cast and get away.

[h0bgawblin]

Blood mage doesn't get to thier base as fast. Also, arcane tower takes time to build. With that amount of speed, I can get to thier base and expend half of my mana before they get it up. I think bloodmage can only get 2 flamestrikes off before he is oom. However, my archmage can get about 4 well placed blizzards off. I would be focusing the gold mine, so I wouldn't stay there for the whole duration of blizzard.

If he knows what I am going to do before I do it, then he would most likely build the arcane tower. However, who would see this coming? Most people assume that they are safe for 1 minute.

[Prozerran]

It's not that an Arcane Tower alone will stop this, Hob. Against HU, there are quite a few issues you'll run into. First and foremost, militia. 3-4 can easily take the AM's HP down by half during the casting of Blizzard. While the AM channels this spell, Militia have free reign to surround your AM forcing you to TP or cancel Blizzard. This prevents you from leveling, since you won't get nearly as much exp from doing this as you would, say, from creeping with WE's and Foots.

Next is building placement. Good opponents will leave 1, maybe 2 openings in their base (we're not talking about pro's or gozu's, we're talking about people who know what they're doing - so quite a few). If you're targeting the goldmine, your AM may be forced to enter your opponent's base. All your opponent needs to do is take a single peasant and partially build a farm at each entrance to stop you from leaving. With all peasants militia'd at that point and a fresh AM coming out, you'll either TP out or let him die giving your opponent instant exp. It's a bigger risk than you think, and anyone who plays Human should have a good response to it. I never assume I'm safe.

Of course, then we have the Arcane Tower, which will significantly affect your harass. You are forced to wait until you can invis your AM to get around the Arcane Tower to pull off the tactic. You're still at lower levels, your opponent has been creeping the map all this time and probably established an expo. The potency of your tactics is diminished and you're quickly on the way to a loss.

The strategy you're talking about has been used in the past, but you have to understand how it works. The AM doesn't level easily, and you have to put constant pressure on your opponent while keeping your AM alive. Scouting is essential, because you need to know exactly where your opponent is and what they are doing. Your sense of timing, then, becomes extremely important. You have to get to Tier 2 immediately for casters and keep constant pressure on your opponent's resources throughout. At Tier 2, you clear an expo with a second hero and continue pressuring your opponent. More than likely, you'll use a Bloodmage or a Panda. You'll stay in Tier 2 for a while during your expanding as your opponent will most likely go straight to Tier 3. If your harass drops at that point, your opponent will easily gain an advantage at Tier 3 with Knights, Breakers, and Griffins. So you understand, it's not just about harassing at Tier 1. You have to effectively harass this way through the whole course of the game or you lose.

Good luck with that. Let me know how it works out for you.

[h0bgawblin]

I understand how the blizzard harass works. However, the AM's blizzard hits all the 5 peasants on the gold mine and you don't have to ENTER the base to cast it. Unless you plan to pick off peasants. If i'm wrong, I wanna know that base build.

secondly, I didn't realise the idea of how much pressure you had to put on your opponent. However, I did that anyway when I was doing a blizzard harrass because it's fun to use and abuse. Besides that, if he militias 4 peasants to attack me, or tries to get a surround on my archmage(and fails) doesn't that mean the blizzard was useful?

The one thing I can understand is that the archmage coming out so soon for the cost of all the gold/wood defeats the purpose for the blizzard harrass. It doesn't change the fact that the reaction my opponents has is priceless. How many games do you get attacked before you even have a footy out?

[GroG]

A lot of times you are better off blizz harassing his creeping, you can potentially get creep kills and footmen kills, low hp footmen that are clumping together to FF a creep = good target. Also, Proz, there's basically no way in hell militia are gonna damage an archmage, you can stop casting blizz any time and run away. A nicely placed arcane is nice, but just Blizz it, and on the second time he needs to come repair it, blizz it again and you'll net several peasant kills due to clumping.

If blizz harass was weak in HuvHu Sky wouldn't use it in practically every game of his.

[GenocideAlive]

A nicely placed arcane is nice, but just Blizz it, and on the second time he needs to come repair it, blizz it again and you'll net several peasant kills due to clumping.
If you cast Blizzard on my arcane tower, I would let you and watch it drain all your mana. To hell with repairing it, you won't have mana left to do dick.
If blizz harass was weak in HuvHu Sky wouldn't use it in practically every game of his.
I don't think that we have comparable skills to Sky.

[h0bgawblin]

Not to mention, sky's play style is extremely aggressive. I have NEVER seen him expand. In addition to that, sky only blizz harrasses (from what I have seen) when the other player is militia creeping.

also, I agree with GA. attack my arcane please:)

[Prozerran]

Proz, there's basically no way in hell militia are gonna damage an archmage, you can stop casting blizz any time and run away. A nicely placed arcane is nice, but just Blizz it, and on the second time he needs to come repair it, blizz it again and you'll net several peasant kills due to clumping.

Wrong. Target the AM with militia and let the Arcane do what it does best, drain mana. Start repairs once blizz is over, not during. The AM will have no mana and low health (Arcane Tower + Militia), you'll lose no peasants, and your Arcane will survive. 4 or so militia will do some damage to the AM, especially since he must channel the spell and stand still. Otherwise, he may cast half a blizz and waste mana anyway when he has to cancel blizz to reposition or retreat. Even if you don't have an Arcane up yet, it's not difficult to counter this tactic once it's discovered.

[GroG]

I'm not just talking about standing there blizzing a solo arcane tower until it dies. Use a couple of seconds of blizz-harass on his tower+close by targets (sometimes, depending on how they place the tower you can hit peasants mining gold + tower). Run away after the initial couple of hits. Since his arcane tower is the weakest building and he NEEDS it so you can't harass him all game, he basically has to repair it. So, when he goes to repair the tower, blizz the tower + peasants, you should have enough mana if you ran quick enough earlier. Another good option is to bring a footmen or two with you, and have them lead before the AM, even if they target the AM with the tower you should waste a few shots on footmen. The down part of this is if you only go with the AM, they probably won't TP, whereas if you go with AM+foots they will definitely TP. So yeah.

[h0bgawblin]

6 sec. cast duration. 6 waves at 30 damage each, 150 max damage. Tell me honestly proz, can 4 militia get to the archmage in that 6 seconds to talk out a healthy chunk of hp before he walks away. And isn't removing those peasants from wood hurting your tech?

Are your gold peasants staying on the mine? If they are, then I will run away from your 4, then return to cast it again. At that point, your gold peasants will be dead, and my archmage will most likely only be at half health.

No matter HOW you slice it. I rob you of recources, thusly delay your tech and get my priests/breakers out faster than you. Now the debate goes to this. Is the creeping sacrifice worthet? Will your level advantage out do me? This depends on how much faster I delayed your tech. If I have enough priests to despell your water elementals, then your leveling is for nuaght. Thusly, your leveling does nothing but give me experience.

[Prozerran]

Is the creeping sacrifice worthet? Will your level advantage out do me?
That's the first, smart question you've asked, and the one point I was about to bring up... I was sort of trying to lead into it with my last post.

At any rate, the small tech delay does not negate the level advantage your opponent will have... if your opponent's smart he'll clear an expo and fast expand if at all possible while putting towers up. Since militia/arcane singlehandedly stop this tactic (minus footmen - which is the presumption here assuming the build you've posted, Hob), your opponent can only lose by not taking advantage of the fact that low level blizzard is not a significant threat. If, however, your opponent creeps to level 3 for level 2 blizzard, you may be in for more of a game, but you have to figure out how to make that happen without relying on your opponent's ignorance in dealing with this tactic. How do you keep the pressure on, gain levels, and prevent your opponent from coming back at Tier 2 countering your AoE with Breakers/Higher Level Summons/MK Stun (which negates Blizzard)?

[cole]

I think i have comparable skills to sky. But yea um anyways, blizz harrassing a hu is still effective, but why the fuck would you aim it at the tower? You just blizz, wait for him to move his peasants or miltia, blizz again and you should be able to get at least 2 blizzs off even WITH arcane tower hitting you which will do significant dmg. Then you just use your clarity pot and most hus arent smart enough to heal their peasants anyways. And if his base setup is good then just buy a tele staff he wont ever be able to kill your am while you harrass.

Yes and the creeping sacrifice is worth it often if you can gain a significant tech advantage and resource advantage.

[Prozerran]

4k.tod build
replace barracks with a lumber mill
blood mage
zeplin
burn a hole in the back of his base and build towers there. Then burn the trees down and let the towers do thier thing. It's priceless.

I saw this and chuckled. This is the AKM build in a nutshell, and this tactic put him on the map. However... you don't "burn the trees down and let the towers do their thing." The towers fire over the trees with help from tower range and Zepplin sight range. This put AKM on the map in the Hu vs UD match-up back when everyone seemed to be losing to UD.

@ Hob: Sorry to dredge, here, but I was reading through this thread and thought I'd point it out. I know I look like I'm trolling, Hob, and let me assure you that's not the case. You're definitely developing a sense of strategy and innovation using Human, and I think it's great so I want to make sure my comments don't discourage you. I hope you're realizing that I'm trying to attack strategy from different angles (sometimes playing Devil's Advocate) to help us all think about what you're posting. Just want to make sure you don't think I'm just being an asshole over here...

Anyways, that being said, there are merits to the AM Blizz tactic in the mirror. If I were able to play (I just moved, donated my old Monitor, ordered a 19" Flatscreen Monitor* WOOT!!, and so my comp is down until next week), I'd post some replays implementing this strategy. Hob, this would make a great opportunity for you to write up a guide on this strategy for the Human Mirror in the Article Alter since it's been thoroughly discussed here. Be sure and include replays of Sky if you mention him in the article (if you write one)... I think it's important to give due credit to players that are well-known for these strategies.

Go for it!

-Proz

[h0bgawblin]

I'll give it a shot, however I cannot upload replays atm. My computer is STILL being worked on. He wants me to try windows media blah blah blah. Also, I have paper cuts on 2 of my fingers, so the writing will have to wait... ouch.