Quick Q n A's [Archive]

GroG

03-01-2007, 8:52 AM

A: Not sure about mass banshee, but mixing banshee's into your army works best vs. grunt raider, and so-so vs wyvern. AMS is good in a couple situations, mostly when you have ghoul/stat/shee and you can spam AMS on your ghouls to protect from chainwave. The other is good part about AMS is if you use it on gargs, it negates or reduces splash damage somehow (maybe GA will clarify this, I'm sure he knows). So, while the original garg will still die to the bat, it won't FUBAR up all your other gargs, too. AMS is also good on heroes, not so much vs. orc but usually human they go bolt+light nuke.

Also, possession is good vs tauren, obviously, but you have to hide your banshee tech. A good way to do this is to get the sacrificial skull, and put some blight on an out of the way place. I remember a game a friend of mine played where he put the blight on one of the isles of turtle rock (the 4 little mini-isles where you creep after your initial green turtle creep) and put a temple there, and voila!

Finally, curse is good if they don't get SW's. It basically makes the orc damage output way worse, so your army survives much longer. Add in statues, and your army hardly ever takes damage. I usually use curse last, since AMS is so much better, though.

edit: OK, I went and looked up both AMS and unstable concoction because I really wanted to understand how and why this works. Unstable concoction deals 600 damage to target, and 140 damage to nearby air within a radius of 20. AMS doesn't just negate spells, it "absorbs" 300 points of spell damage. Gargs have 410 hp. I'm going to assume the unstable concoction isn't spell damage when it targets the garg, but the splash damage is spell damage? That's my guess. Either that, or both are, and it blocks 300 damage of the original concoction and the garg still lives with 110 hp? I might have to test this crap out in a game (and probably lose). Sorry for this mis-info in the original part of this post.

Q: If I'm playing 2v2 and my ally has tauren, and I have SW with the tauren resurrection ability, can I resurrect his tauren in battle?

GenocideAlive

03-01-2007, 11:11 AM

AMS & Gargs:

Bat Unstable Concoction deals direct damage (DD) to its target.
This means that the amount of DD dealt can be reduced by armor.
Bat Unstable Concoction splash is spell damage.
This means that those units that Bats' splash hit can be protected by AMS.

Flying a Bat at a Garg will do terrific damage to the Garg. However, if all of the Garg's buddies have AMS, it won't damage them. Thus, if the Bat didn't kill the Garg, he won't be able to finish the job with splash (Bats' strong point). If you ever want to get this to work, you're still going to have to upgrade Garg armor, use armor scroll, and then split up your Gargs into groups of around 3-4 to prevent the Bats from instantly overloading AMS. But, the reward is that you will end up with a bunch of red Gargs that you can healscroll and Stone Form and he just wasted around 1.5k gold and 600W.

I wouldn't recommend it unless you're both at the end of your rope, and he's massed the terrible Wyv / ChainStomp army against your Banshees and you can't risk Fiends.

Personally, I don't know why UDs desperately hide their Banshees from Orc players. Orcs go Chainwave Rax/Best against UD all the time, and the solution is casters + AMS. They're going to have to stop, build a caster hut, get a SW, get the SW upgrade, and keep mana on him. That's a very expensive and time-consuming deviation down the tech tree and should be more than worth it for the UD player. Even if the Orc gets SWs, they're not going to prevent Possession, and they're pretty piss-poor at keeping dirt-cheap Curse off of their units. Master Shees have 400 mana for two food, enough to cast Curse 30 times for 6 food. Statues keep the Curse coming, with a buff of 3 mana/unit on top of their 1.2 mana/s regen. Adept SWs with their 450 mana, 3 food walkers can cast Disenchant 6 times with full mana and no way to regenerate it besides to wait for over a minute per cast. Skirmish, target as many SWs as you can, make the remainder waste all their mana, TP, heal up, and come back. GG Orc.

RedRagToAnOrc

03-01-2007, 12:36 PM

Q: If I'm playing 2v2 and my ally has tauren, and I have SW with the tauren resurrection ability, can I resurrect his tauren in battle?

Yes, AFAIK.

Q: I recently discovered while casting a game that Sentinel can be Disenchanted (or dispelled by any AoE dispel). Can the same be done to AMS?

GenocideAlive

03-01-2007, 1:46 PM

A: No. AMS is undispellable in any shape or form. It must wear off or be consumed by magic/spell damage.

Q: Does the armor upgrade for NE trees do anything besides movement + armor? I know it does something for KotG's Treants...

RedRagToAnOrc

03-01-2007, 2:13 PM

Q: Does the armor upgrade for NE trees do anything besides movement + armor? I know it does something for KotG's Treants...

A: Increases movement speed and armour for Treants. That's it, other than the same for Ancients.

Q: How many units is the Gyro's AoE attack capped at?

Anubis520

03-04-2007, 8:37 PM

A: AOE for gyro air is about 8-9 units

wut unit combo beats grunts/raiders?

Yoda

03-04-2007, 9:58 PM

Finally! A question I can actually answer!

Mass DOTTS, or bears + dyards, or just mass "heavy" melee from all races if you have enough of them. Adding some casters if you're human (especially 'slow') helps a lot as well. Mixing some banshees if you're undead could also help.

If I'm not playing as orc, what is the best (air) counter to mass gargs? The problem with ground units/heroes (e.g. Panda) is that they constantly harass my lumber workers/wisps, and just fly over the trees when some of my units reach them.

Prozerran

03-04-2007, 10:04 PM

If I'm not playing as orc, what is the best (air) counter to mass gargs? The problem with ground units/heroes (e.g. Panda) is that they constantly harass my lumber workers/wisps, and just fly over the trees when some of my units reach them.

A: With Human, you'll want either mass flying machines or a mixture of FM's and Hawks. With UD, obviously Gargs trade-off with Gargs, so get more of them. With NE, I'd only have to assume Hippo's.

Q: Does Warden's Blink range increase with each level? I'm too lazy to look it up and need to post a question.

Basan

03-05-2007, 6:32 AM

Q: Does Warden's Blink range increase with each level? I'm too lazy to look it up and need to post a question.

A: The Blink ability ranges a lil' further with each level increase, although the best asset of it's level 3 is the 1 second cooldown (compared to the 10 secs at level 1 and 2). ;)

Q: Since the BM is my fav' Hu hero, I'll try to make it a viable 1st choice but for that I assume that will have to play a lot more aggressively than usual Hu's (AKM solo'er style or not). Am I right or not? I also would like for a few more entails into making it a bit more less micro demanding match, if possible at all.

GenocideAlive

03-05-2007, 10:56 AM

A: The Blink ability ranges a lil' further with each level increase, although the best asset of it's level 3 is the 1 second cooldown (compared to the 10 secs at level 1 and 2).
Blink range increases about 3 inches on the first upgrade, and about 6 on the last. So your first Blink should get you about 4" in any dir, the next will get you about 7", and the last should get you pretty much a screen in any direction. Picking a good spot is way more important than the actual range; nohing will catch or outrun an L3 Blink Warden. A Flying Machine is just about your only decent contender.
Since the BM is my fav' Hu hero, I'll try to make it a viable 1st choice but for that I assume that will have to play a lot more aggressively than usual Hu's (AKM solo'er style or not).
Well, HUs tend to play pretty aggressively regardless. The tier 2 HU push usually constitutes the majority of play in ladder. The strategic principle behind AKM is to trade a Barracks for two towers. Doing this, the HU player gets way better protection from harassment and avoids offering up the shitty Footmen for experience. In tier 1, Militia provide the same relative function as Footmen, but are much faster and double as resource gatherers.

If you are going to go solo BM and try to imitate AKM, you have priorities thus: militia creep to L2. Clear a mine. Start an expo + towers. Tech. Get L3 on your BM. Harass (prevent expos + damage economy). Mass tier 3 army. Attack (expos first). L3 Flamestrike kills all workers. A full mana L3 BM can take out a mine of UD and NE pretty quick if ignored. So they either TP or risk losing their mine. A good idea is to put scout farms here and there so you can use your TP staff to pop around the map.

Q: Can you Cyclone a Steam Tank?

Basan

03-05-2007, 11:31 AM

Blink range increases about 3 inches on the first upgrade, and about 6 on the last. So your first Blink should get you about 4" in any dir, the next will get you about 7", and the last should get you pretty much a screen in any direction. Picking a good spot is way more important than the actual range; nohing will catch or outrun an L3 Blink Warden. A Flying Machine is just about your only decent contender.

Well, HUs tend to play pretty aggressively regardless. The tier 2 HU push usually constitutes the majority of play in ladder. The strategic principle behind AKM is to trade a Barracks for two towers. Doing this, the HU player gets way better protection from harassment and avoids offering up the shitty Footmen for experience. In tier 1, Militia provide the same relative function as Footmen, but are much faster and double as resource gatherers.

If you are going to go solo BM and try to imitate AKM, you have priorities thus: militia creep to L2. Clear a mine. Start an expo + towers. Tech. Get L3 on your BM. Harass (prevent expos + damage economy). Mass tier 3 army. Attack (expos first). L3 Flamestrike kills all workers. A full mana L3 BM can take out a mine of UD and NE pretty quick if ignored. So they either TP or risk losing their mine. A good idea is to put scout farms here and there so you can use your TP staff to pop around the map.

I don't usually play that aggressively, so maybe Orcs or even NE will suit my style better. Although I fair reasonably with UD... or so I think. :P

Q: Can you Cyclone a Steam Tank?

A: Nope, DotT's ability is limited to organic units.
Although I ain't sure about that Naga Witch cyclone spell. Since it's an ultimate I assume that it allows mechanical units to get trapped by it.

Q: I was thinking more to try out Blood Mage and Panda (eventually the PitLorda although not very tempting imho) for the tank meat along with mass AoE effect, although most likely would have to spend a few bucks to have'em at least with boots (or staffs). Is it doable? :concern:

RedRagToAnOrc

03-05-2007, 11:35 AM

Q: Can you Cyclone a Steam Tank?

A: No. A Steam Tank can be slowed, ensnared and staffed, but not cycloned - Cyclone affects only organic units.

Q: Does the AoE on a Lich's Nova increase with levels?

Basan

03-05-2007, 11:44 AM

Q: Does the AoE on a Lich's Nova increase with levels?

A: It's AoE effect range increases with level and that's for sure.

Q: Following my idea above with the Panda / Blood Mage, what are the best combos, spell pick and unit wise, considering the racial match ups? I can almost always see the Slow ho's employed but not much else. :confused:

GroG

03-06-2007, 11:06 PM

A: I'd probably only go panda first on small maps like echo isles or terenas stand, cause your gonna get outcreeped otherwise and it's easy to creepjack on those maps once you've played a bunch of games and understand creeping orders and timings.

Flamestrike is going to be incredibly hard to pull off without a stun. I'd probably only do that build by someone going mass tier 1 range, or if they fast expand and you want to BoF/FS his towers or peons. I'd probably go BoF/Brawler and FS/Siphon, although if they make a bunch of tier 1 units or something that you want to BoF, get BoF/Haze instead and use haze followed by BoF. Watch out though, it's incredibly mana intensive and you might want to buy a mana pot. I'd say this strat would work best vs. UD and HU, and worse vs NE and Orc.

Q: When you get the archer range upgrade at tier 2, does it effect mounted hippogryph riders as well?

Yoda

03-07-2007, 3:17 AM

Yes

Q: Are there any matchups in which POTM first is advisable? (plz add strats as well).

GenocideAlive

03-07-2007, 11:16 AM

A: NE, mass hunts + glaives. HU, mass tier 1 with a sprinkle of tier 2 at endgame.

Q: How to shut down harass with Orc, without choosing BM?

GroG

03-07-2007, 2:31 PM

You talking tier 1, tier 2, tier 3? You talking creep harass or base harass?

I'll assume for now you mean tier 1 creep harass with like a DK. If you went FarSeer, just keep the FarSeer out of the creeping process, and have him attack the DK, while the grunts/wolves creep. If you started with TC, run him ahead of DK and stomp, and FF with units a sec and make him run.

Or the easiest answer is to creep "out of order". Takes more time, but is usually much safer.

Q: If I Shadowstrike a hero, then attack it with a hero with venom orb, do these "venom damage" things that damage over time stack? If my orc ally has wyverns with venom upgrade, do those also stack (ie, if he has 4 wyvs, does each wyern attack do poison damage over time, plus SS damage over time, plus venom orb damage over time)? What about multiple venom orbs? Basically, please explain the venom system to me ;p

Prozerran

03-07-2007, 7:49 PM

Answer: As I understand it, venom damage is a negative buff that does not stack. If your ally and you both have the capability to inflict venom damage (i.e. venom orb and wyvs), the venom will not stack. However, each time venom is applied to a unit, the counter will reset. Shadowstrike is a different affect, and so it will stack with venom.

Question: When are mass MG's viable with NE? I remember threads about a year ago bitching about the mass MG strat, so I'm wondering what it was and what happened to it?

RedRagToAnOrc

03-09-2007, 12:08 PM

Question: When are mass MG's viable with NE? I remember threads about a year ago bitching about the mass MG strat, so I'm wondering what it was and what happened to it?

I believe it was FoH)Rider who did an audio on Mass MGs when he briefly started playing NE, and posted the AC on WCR. It was on TS against Human, and he simply got Tier 3, ordinary heroes, used the DH and a couple of Dryads to take care of air (Orb on DH) and got 3-3 MGs with both Skin Upgrades. That's the only matchup in which I know it to be viable.

Q: Has anyone seen the new BM/SH Headhunter (or Grunt) second Barracks Demolisher towering fad vs Undead? Why does it work?

There's a rep on frontpage WCR between lvl50DK, who many people believe is BoO, and some random USEast Orc who almost beats him with it.

cole

03-09-2007, 5:05 PM

I believe it was FoH)Rider who did an audio on Mass MGs when he briefly started playing NE, and posted the AC on WCR. It was on TS against Human, and he simply got Tier 3, ordinary heroes, used the DH and a couple of Dryads to take care of air (Orb on DH) and got 3-3 MGs with both Skin Upgrades. That's the only matchup in which I know it to be viable.

Q: Has anyone seen the new BM/SH Headhunter (or Grunt) second Barracks Demolisher towering fad vs Undead? Why does it work?

There's a rep on frontpage WCR between lvl50DK, who many people believe is BoO, and some random USEast Orc who almost beats him with it.

A: UD relies heavily on their base defense to keep them alive until t3, which theyre at their strongest. Simply put a BM picking off ud units/hero killing, and a SH healing units that already have 800 hp in the first place will provide more than enough match for ghouls or fiends. Normally this wouldnt matter though because ud could just simply hide behind their base defense and gain a edge, but thats where towers and demos come into play and force the ud out of their base into a sorta "do or die" micro battle. I dont personally use it but ive heard some orc pros do.

Q: Who has the bigger advantage, UD or NE, in ud vs ne? Or is it even?

GroG

03-19-2007, 2:02 PM

A: All the MU's are balanced!

Q: Do bats w/ Liquid Fire do the Liquid Fire attack on Siege tanks? What about Gyrocopters bomb upgrade, does that work on Siege tanks?

GenocideAlive

03-19-2007, 7:57 PM

A: Slight Advantage to NE. Staffs + AMS vastly outweigh the tier 3 shop items for UD.

A. Liquid Fire doesn't work on Steam Tanks. Not that you'd want to attack them with Bats--their Barrage upgrade is pretty much specialized for units like Bats. On top of that, Bats give L4 exp, so you'd basically be handing enemy heroes mass levels on a silver platter. Raiders are a one step counter available faster and cheaper.

Gyrocopters' Bomb upgrade works on everything on the ground.

Q: Do Goblin Shredders count as Mechanical units? Can they be Coiled? HL'd?

Prozerran

03-19-2007, 8:38 PM

A: Goblin Shredders count as mechanical units. To heal them, they must be repaired by workers. They cannot be coiled or healed, and they carry 200 lumber per trip.

Q: Let's test your knowledge, folks... In those rare instances (we all hope) that a hero emerges from the alter and is trapped between the alter and the trees, what heroes can escape without assistance from other units or items (meaning no TP scroll)?

Basan

03-20-2007, 9:02 PM

Q: Let's test your knowledge, folks... In those rare instances (we all hope) that a hero emerges from the alter and is trapped between the alter and the trees, what heroes can escape without assistance from other units or items (meaning no TP scroll)?

A: Warden (Blink), Blood Mage (Flame Strike), KotG (Treants), Pit Lord (RoF) and the BladeMaster (WW) if he can walk through buildings. And if we're throwing on ultimates to the mix as well, let's put in the Fire Lord and the Far Seer with their Volcano/Earthquake along with the Panda and it's 3 way split (hoping that the space where the Panda got caught was tiny).
Just ain't sure about the Naga and her Tornado, though. :P

Q: In which scenarios do you see the Dark Ranger feasible as initial hero (since I see it more as meat shield provider for NE mostly and eventually as a Hu anti-caster)? Match ups, spell pickings, other heroes used and racial synergy advantages in her use would be splendidly appreciated. ;)
And if in other position (2nd or even 3rd), please also add the hero group and racial usage along with match up.

GenocideAlive

03-20-2007, 9:36 PM

A: DR first works vs. HU, with great effect when sprinkling in Firelord. Creep her to L3 with her mad summons, then drag her to enemy base and zerg away using militia as fodder.

Q: What heroes counter the DH?

Yoda

03-20-2007, 11:03 PM

That question was obvious sarcastic, but I'll answer it anyway.

The Blademaster can equalise, but not counter, the DH. The MK can also stop him to an extent, however the DH is ultimately an anti-hero. POTM is somewhat "immune" to mana burn, because she doesn't have any decent spells, so in NE mirror you could use her.

Late game, hero stunners can keep him in check.

How can I defeat bear/dyrads with any Non-NE race, with the ability to have the counter at the same (approximate) time the bear/dyrads are out?

GenocideAlive

03-21-2007, 12:09 AM

That question was obvious sarcastic, but I'll answer it anyway.
Thanks, Yoda. I wasn't earnestly asking, I was "obvious sarcastic". I realize you have this picture of me with horns on it, but all I ask is that you entertain the idea that perhaps I have something to bring to the table that isn't immediately negative and anti-Yoda the WB Poster. I can appreciate your dislike of me, but it's trollish shit like this that really is uncalled for. Please at least try to use your brain to entertain something besides prejudice.

GroG

03-21-2007, 4:26 PM

A: Orc, mass wyv beats bear/dryad. Also, Kodo/Raider beats bear/dryad. Hu, Gryph/Breaker beats bear/dryad, also breaker/rifle/caster/summon beats with proper "spreadability" and healscrolls. Finally, UD, Wyrm/Garg, Garg/Destro, Abom/Wagon, and Fiend/Destro can all beat it. Unfortunately, how to actually play all 3 of the races in all these scenarios and since this is such a vague question, I can't answer it for you.

Q: If I have a spellbreaker, it can use control magic to steal a unit of "varying" hp (it says that 1 hp of unit = 1/2 mp of SB). SpellBreaker has 250 mp. So basically, I can steal a 500 hp unit. If there's a unit with say, 700 hp, and I take it down to under 500 hp, can I control it then, or does it use MAX hp to determine controllability? Also, can I control an air summon, such as hawk, I mean SB can't hit flying? Finally, I know I can control magic orc healing wards. What about serpent wards, stasis traps, the eyeball item drop ward (whatever it's called, supposing I can see it), ... I guess that's it.

Just wondering. Oh, and I didn't know SB's drain + damage an extra 20mp per hit! That's like little built in DH's. I can't believe human whine about DH all the time, I'm gonna start using those. Although, it get's reduced to 4 vs. heroes.. still, very good vs bear/dryad.

RedRagToAnOrc

03-21-2007, 4:52 PM

A: Orc, mass wyv beats bear/dryad.

I'd just like to mention that Bear/Dryad plus an Orbed DH beats mass Wyverns. And if you think that sounds silly, you've obviously never seen it happen. :)

GroG

03-21-2007, 4:57 PM

Basan

03-21-2007, 5:56 PM

Q: If I have a spellbreaker, it can use control magic to steal a unit of "varying" hp (it says that 1 hp of unit = 1/2 mp of SB). SpellBreaker has 250 mp. So basically, I can steal a 500 hp unit. If there's a unit with say, 700 hp, and I take it down to under 500 hp, can I control it then, or does it use MAX hp to determine controllability? Also, can I control an air summon, such as hawk, I mean SB can't hit flying? Finally, I know I can control magic orc healing wards. What about serpent wards, stasis traps, the eyeball item drop ward (whatever it's called, supposing I can see it), ... I guess that's it.

Just wondering. Oh, and I didn't know SB's drain + damage an extra 20mp per hit! That's like little built in DH's. I can't believe human whine about DH all the time, I'm gonna start using those. Although, it get's reduced to 4 vs. heroes.. still, very good vs bear/dryad.

A: I believe it can steal a unit with a tad more (http://www.battle.net/war3/human/units/spellbreaker.shtml) than 500 HP. Although I didn't bothered to make it's Math', providing that 5% plus factor it's still correct after so many patches.
And the control magic works in air, ground and organic (maybe a couple more), if not mistaken. Mech' summons (like Pocket Factory 'bots) aren't controllable.

In fact, spell breakers are one of my fav' units when playing Hu vs. NE. That Roar is so 'wuvable' and if they don't aim the dryads right they're venom magic does squat to'em. ;)

Q: When vs. de DH and having somewhat slow heroes (like the Blood Mage and DR) is always advisable to get some boots of speed, right? (Frankly, I didn't recall of something else to ask. :P)

h0bgawblin

03-21-2007, 6:14 PM

A:From what I understand, versus the demon hunter, you always need boots. Also helps against dryads.

Q: Is it ever worthet to tavern ressurect your hero? if so, when are the few times? I had this game once where I had so much more recources than my opponent. That I kept rezzing my heroes and that won me the game. However, that was a LONG time ago, where huge mistakes were forgivable because people sucked.

GenocideAlive

03-22-2007, 12:49 AM

The answer to your questions, GroG:

If you damage a summon to the appropriate number of HPs, you can then steal it. It is determined by summon current HP, not total.
SBs can steal the BM's Hawk, because it's a spell (Panda can hit air with BoF, right?).
Stasis traps and Observer Wards are stealable.
Serpent Wards (which are magic immune) are not stealable.

Side Note: If your opponent roars his Bears out of mana before engaging, SBs are relatively quickly defeated. You will need FF and crazy AoE to win, but Staff saves will start piling up. It's not an outright winning proposition.

GroG

03-22-2007, 8:33 AM

Q: Is it ever worthet to tavern ressurect your hero? if so, when are the few times? I had this game once where I had so much more recources than my opponent. That I kept rezzing my heroes and that won me the game. However, that was a LONG time ago, where huge mistakes were forgivable because people sucked.

A: I usually only tavern revive my hero against nuking, whether it be against UD, NE (entangle+ss), Hu (banish+bolt), or Orc (BM+hex). At the very beginning of a battle, if my hero instantly dies I need it back very badly to 1) gain exp 2)influence the battle w/ spells and items 3) do damage. But if my hero dies at the end of a battle or during harass or something, usually I'll just resurrect her at my own altar because something HUGE isn't going down without my hero at the helm (although if it's the end of a battle and it was a close and intense battle, maybe I can tavern-buy her and gain the upper hand), she'll probably come out before anything happens battle-wise. Make sense?

Q: Do you get experience for killing a TC at L6 who is resurrecting directly after his death? What about heroes with ankh's? And finally, what about Tauren who die and get resurrected by SW's master ability, and do you get exp for killing the revived Taurens also?

RedRagToAnOrc

03-22-2007, 1:40 PM

Nope, I have, and Orc heroes can *gasp* play a role in battle too. FF dryads, then FF bears. I actually had a neat rep of solo TC/grunt->2 beast expand wyv on TR vs. solo DH bear/dryad. I harassed his wisps with wyvs, creeped, and in battles I just stomped/weaved with my TC while wyvs FF dryads, then bears, then DH.

You've obviously lost to it recently and decided to whine though, so kudos to you I guess. What else "solves" then? Got a new fad strat to enlighten us with? Surely you could tower at tier 1 before he makes units I suppose.

Some simple Dryad micro and DH focusing takes down Wyverns in seconds. No, I have not lost to that recently, because I use Gruntapult every game. There is a reason why most professionals don't use Wyverns against Night-Elf, and... well, that's the reason.

Q: Is it ever worthet to tavern ressurect your hero? if so, when are the few times? I had this game once where I had so much more recources than my opponent. That I kept rezzing my heroes and that won me the game. However, that was a LONG time ago, where huge mistakes were forgivable because people sucked.

Yes. There's a replay from 1.20 between ReMinD and ToD where Remind beats ToD's entire army plus towers with a single Panda, which levels up over the course of the game to ten. Remind still has no units when ToD kills it... so he revives it from the Tavern and wins. It's considered one of the best games ever, along with Axslav's PotM game.

GroG

03-22-2007, 7:45 PM

I have a couple questions for you then, RedRag.
1) Which professional is telling you this stuff? Cause as far as I know, Cole hasn't earned any money from playing WC3.
2) You actually base your strategy off the hero they get at tier 1? Wow.
3) You do realize DH is referred to as "Superman". He does lots of damage to everything. He neutralizes heroes. To say that a unit is weak against him is about redundant, don't you think? I mean, honestly, all units are, doesn't really matter what unit you get.
4) Learn how to control an NE's wood with wyverns. Look up dryads wood costs. Come back to me and we'll chat.

You do know not everything is attack move with summons or towering, some people do use different playstyles. I guess what I'm saying is I reject your statement as 100% false. I also think you are lying about the pro thing, you would have told me the name of the pro if it wasn't just some guy you knew that you thought was good. BTW, the only Orc "Professional" I know of is Grubby, he's really the only one who's made enough money to support himself off the game for a year, and even then it's sketchy if you could call him that. So basically unless you have a link to Grubby saying "Getting wyverns vs. NE sucks 'cause of DH and venom orb" I don't think your statement is correct, plus your argument is flawed.

I also like how we are arguing about a vague situation that didn't even specify the hero, which is what you are arguing with me about. Oh well, your simple-mindedness to this game continues to astound me.

cole

03-23-2007, 3:58 PM

I earned eight dollars from playing actually. Guess that makes me a professional after all. Redrag you know a professional, bet that makes you hard right now.

Basan

03-23-2007, 4:49 PM

I earned eight dollars from playing actually. Guess that makes me a professional after all. ...

Stupid bets in which you conned others don't count. :P

GenocideAlive

03-24-2007, 11:39 PM

Stupid bets in which you conned others don't count. :P
lol pwned.

GroG

03-25-2007, 2:06 PM

In addition to my question about Tauren exp and all that.. Can you resurrect other players that aren't yours or your allies Tauren with SW's revive as well?

Basan

03-25-2007, 5:49 PM

In addition to my question about Tauren exp and all that.. Can you resurrect other players that aren't yours or your allies Tauren with SW's revive as well?

A: Alas, it doesn't revive ally Taurens. Only (same) player units. :(

Q: I never understood the FireLord's Lava spawn critter ability. Can anyone thoroughly explain how that minion self split happens and when?

cole

03-25-2007, 6:08 PM

A: Happens after a certain amount of attacks made by the lava spawn. Not sure on the exact number, hardly use FL unless orc mirror. But essentially you can average 6-7 spawn easily with a FL that has full mana.

Q: Why is the aclhemist pretty much useless unless your a godly pro?

GroG

03-26-2007, 1:46 PM

Well I went and looked up the Tauren thing myself. I guess you don't get experience for killing the TC with Resurrection, you only do if he doesn't resurrect. You can only resurrect friendly taurens, not enemy ones. And I'm not sure about the exp for taurens, but I'm assuming you get exp for killing both the original and the resurrected tauren?

Basan, it takes 15 attacks to split a Lava Spawn.

A: Cole, try Bomber/Rage against low-hp units and heroes. Like vs. HU or UD, use him against footies then later casters, or ghouls then later casters or heroes. As for the healing spray, I could see that working with mass air that stacks, such as wyvs or gryphs. But you gotta play him like a blademaster, run him around into casters with Chem. Rage and then use bomber to "nuke" stuff. Then late game just run around and own units with transmute. But he isn't overpowered, so it isn't easy to win with him. Gotta play the creepjacking game with him.

Q: If 2 allied firelords are casting incinerate on a unit, is it stacking damage+attacks of both, or just 1?

Basan

03-26-2007, 3:23 PM

Well I went and looked up the Tauren thing myself. I guess you don't get experience for killing the TC with Resurrection, you only do if he doesn't resurrect. You can only resurrect friendly taurens, not enemy ones. And I'm not sure about the exp for taurens, but I'm assuming you get exp for killing both the original and the resurrected tauren?

Basan, it takes 15 attacks to split a Lava Spawn.

I'm pretty sure that reviving Taurens only works for your own units. Am I'm mentioning the default ability (although through mapping you can make it revive allied taurens as well). ;)

And also am sure that only when you kill the Tauren and no resurrection is available you'll then get the exp for the kill. Not before that. Alas, I recall a game in which to get my ultimate for the Hu hero that kill would suffice and it was denied to me because of the TC's ultimate (he popped a teleport scroll has soon as he revived because I had the tombstone surrounded). :P

GenocideAlive

03-26-2007, 4:54 PM

For TC with Ressurection, you get no exp if Ressurrection procs.

For Tauren with Spirit Walkers, you get exp every time you kill a Tauren.

Allied Tauren can be revived by friendly SWs.

Incinerate does not stack between two FLs, similar to how SS poison does not stack between two Wardens, it just resets the timer.

FL spawns split after a specific number of attacks, darken, and heal 50% of remaining HP when they do so. So if you knock a spawn down to 50% life when it splits, it'll darken a bit and both spawns will start with +50% of 50% remaining health, or +25% = 75% health.

And the Alchemist is useless unless you're NE, as usual. Throwing venom orb on him + acid + Faerie Fire + Entangle/SS on INT heroes is functionally slaughter.

Basan

03-27-2007, 3:50 PM

...
Allied Tauren can be revived by friendly SWs.
...

Only if it's due to recent patch. :angel: I still recall to play a friendly game in which an ally tried to revive one of my fallen Taurens and failed.
That and WE still supporting my opinion.

GenocideAlive

03-27-2007, 11:31 PM

Well, I have no way to prove this particular point. I always share control with my teammates, so there exists a possibility that I confused my SWs with his. I still am inclined to believe that it is so.

h0bgawblin

03-28-2007, 3:39 PM

Question: This more regards to play style, however I think I play better with music on. Interestingly enough, when it's booming I lawlo apm focus and suck. However, when I play with music at a decent level, and listen to ska or blues ect, I play great. I read an interview with tod, he said that listening to music can potentially hurt ones game play. Regardless, do you guys use music or just enjoy playing with music.

Question 2: What's the most viable human harass strat in a 4v4.

PsychoPath

03-31-2007, 5:02 PM

A1: IMO I agree with TOD on this, however I listen to music regardless. Music can be a distraction to macro and/or micro but moreso to macro. Also takes away from the in game sound giving warnings, though relying on those too much can be a bad thing.

A2: teching to mortars IMO is best strat 4v4 in AT. In RT more likely teching to mass gryphs is the better strat.

Basan

03-31-2007, 7:37 PM

And that's why I always have the game music lower than it's sounds. Around 80% for the first and 100% for the later.

Prozerran

03-31-2007, 8:23 PM

A1: IMO I agree with TOD on this, however I listen to music regardless. Music can be a distraction to macro and/or micro but moreso to macro. Also takes away from the in game sound giving warnings, though relying on those too much can be a bad thing.

I dunno, I think there are benefits to having music with your gaming. It helps me with my rhythm and timing. Kind of like using nightfall as a means of keeping track of your in-game progress (i.e., it's daybreak and I haven't teched, I might be behind), it's a way to sort of create a sense of timing, lining up some of my actions with the music as it intensifies or dies down. I know it sounds dumb, but it works, sometimes.

Yoda

03-31-2007, 9:38 PM

Although it's a distraction from one perspective, I actually enjoy listening to the music. And you need to hear "Our Sacred Grove is being desecrated!" :P (Yes, I know that's distinct from 'music').

Edit:

Here's a potentially stupid-sounding question. Apparently, undead can't beat mass Wyverns. Why don't gargs beat wyverns when they're considered to be the best air anti-air unit?

RedRagToAnOrc

04-01-2007, 5:33 PM

Also takes away from the in game sound giving warnings, though relying on those too much can be a bad thing.

I listen to music and never hear those. I just... don't learn. :(

GroG

04-02-2007, 4:38 PM

Here's a potentially stupid-sounding question. Apparently, undead can't beat mass Wyverns. Why don't gargs beat wyverns when they're considered to be the best air anti-air unit?

A: Because of batriders. They don't require an extra building, no extra tech, nothing. So basically, you mix 1-2 batriders in to your army of wyvs when you suspect gargs, and explode them on gargs, instantly raping him. If they manage to heal scroll or pull off something where all their gargs aren't instantly dead, use chain to finish, if still a few are standing use wyvs to FF them, if there are a ton left somehow, just tp away. Then rebuild a few bats. Basically, bats require little investment, little micro, and give huge results. Add to that the fact that gargs stack easily, low-hp, etc.. You get the picture.

So yes, gargs > wyvs, but bats > gargs. The only response is to nuke bats or web them.. but thats incredibly hard, especially if they are mixed into wyvs so you can't see them, plus they get that huge speed bonus when "homing in" to unstable concoction.

Q: If I banish a unit and then transmute it, do I get more gold?

Blacker

04-02-2007, 5:39 PM

Q:For what serves Girycopters,they're really weak...

Prozerran

04-02-2007, 7:53 PM

Q: If I banish a unit and then transmute it, do I get more gold?

No. Banish extra-effects only apply to Damage based on magic damage and movement speed.

Banish: Turns a unit ethereal and slows its movement speed by 50% for 18 seconds (at level 3). Ethereal units cannot attack, but they can cast spells and will take 66% more damage from Magic attacks and spells.

Damn good question, though.

PsychoPath

04-02-2007, 9:08 PM

Q:For what serves Girycopters,they're really weak...

Often in Hu vs UD you'll see gyrocopters used to counter destroyers. People also mass them occasionally in both FFA and 4v4. Not sure what implications they have other than in the previously mentioned scenarios though

Blacker

04-03-2007, 1:33 AM

Yeah,but 3 frost wyrms can destroy 12 and maybe more gyrocopters,I'm sure in that...

Prozerran

04-03-2007, 10:35 AM

Yeah,but 3 frost wyrms can destroy 12 and maybe more gyrocopters,I'm sure in that...

If the Flying Machines are upgraded with the Flak Cannon ability, 3 Frost Wyrms won't kill 12 FM's. The DPS of Frost Wyrms loses to the DPS of FM's, since FM's deal more damage and that damage has an area of effect. You target one FW, and you're essentially damaging the other two FW's in the process. I doubt you've seen 3 Frost Wyrms take out 12 Flying Machines, but if you have, the explanation probably has to do with either the addition of Gargs to the UD army, or the Flying Machines weren't upgraded.

GenocideAlive

04-03-2007, 7:19 PM

The trick behind Flying Machines is equal food. Whatever* you put in the air, if you put equal food of Flying Machines up there**, the Flying Machines (with Flak Cannon) will win***. The reason being is that Flying Machines have max move (400), deal great splash damage, and have a large AoE on that splash damage. Nothing will be able to get away or prevent the stacking splash from hitting all their units.

* Bats are a definite exception.
** Starting with around 10 food.
*** Hero support is not accounted for, since that leads to endless scenarios.

Why UD can't beat mass wyv:

As GroG stated, centralized production from the Beastiary with Bats, and the fact that they have no ground-based unit that can hit air. Fiends cannot hit air, they simply bring it to the ground so that they can use their ground-based attack. This means with wyvern's superior mobility and damage output, the Orc player can dictate the battlefield.

On top of that, Wyverns are a mere +50G for a +1 food unit that flies and has way better DPS. Thus, the UD player has a slight food advantage and a slight gold advantage in exchange for the Orc player's far superior mobility, focus-fire ability, and DPS. When you add in Orc heroes, the numbers get far worse for the UD. Now they have better creeping, better instant damage from AoE, and more centralized production.

Nuking offers little respite, since most Orc players look for their UD counterparts to make such attempts. Not to mention that using Coil offensively greatly lowers its effectiveness in battle, and leaves fiends WIDE OPEN to wyv focus-fire to stack with Chainwave. It doesn't help that UD has poor healing outside of the DK, Orcs usually have better levels at tier 2, and that Shockwave hits Statues.

Blacker

04-04-2007, 12:58 AM

Actualy,I din't saw but when I'm plying with comp' player 3 FW destroy 1 gyro' at only one hit by each W.

Smarty one,GA!

Prozerran

04-04-2007, 4:06 PM

Actualy,I din't saw but when I'm plying with comp' player 3 FW destroy 1 gyro' at only one hit by each W.

Smarty one,GA!
Maybe so, but the great thing about Flying Machines is that by the time 3 Frost Wyrms attack 12 times, you'll have 6-8 more FM's right there to exact revenge for the death of 12 of their comrades. FW's don't build fast at all, so losing 12 FM's pales in comparison to losing 3 Wyrms.

GenocideAlive

04-04-2007, 10:05 PM

Unfortunately, there is no way to compare to a 600HP Coil every seconds from a DK.

Dragonhawks are far better for the giant wyrms.

Morkeliph

04-05-2007, 11:45 AM

Dragonhawks are far better for the giant wyrms.This is a point I was hoping would be made. Why would you ever consider using FM against wyrms in the first place? For air to air combat, nothing beats dragonhawks, wind riders or firebats, IMO. Dragonhawks are my personal pick because of aerial shackles, which pretty much renders its target useless, and is a great counter to firebats as well.

As I see it, FM are only really useful for scouting, and maybe a pesky hit and fade attack against buildings when they have bombs.

GroG

04-05-2007, 1:21 PM

But you don't account for nuking with the UD against hawks, which is negated by gyros being mechanical. I'm not saying dragonhawks suck, but in my opinion the longer a game goes, the better gyro's get, especially en masse.

Blacker

04-05-2007, 2:45 PM

Here's a test.I made a new map,set up the upgrades (everything is researched for both Human and UD) and placed 3 FW and 12 GC's.I played with FW's and I won.You really should test that.What do you think?

btw,sorry for incorrect spelling in this post :concern:

Morkeliph

04-05-2007, 2:48 PM

A smart player will have spell breakers FF the Undead heroes, particularly the lich, so that they don't have as much mana to perform a nuke. Additionally, if you micro your Dhawks well they won't be clumped up in a bunch and a blast from frost nova wont be nearly as damning. While I agree with you that since FM are mech they are a good way of avoiding the nuke problems associate with playing against Undead, i personally feel that you shouldn't adjust your entire strategy out of fear of the undead Nuke. Particularly in the case that humans vs undead have a nuke of their own (banish/bolt/light), you would hope that the two should even each other out a bit.

Of course, the best strategy is to hit the undead hard early so as to prevent them from ever reaching Tier 3 and getting wyrms. Since the undead become incredibly stronger between tiers 2 and 3, you should always do what you can to prevent them from reaching tier 3 where possible.

GroG

04-05-2007, 6:51 PM

Hahaha.. alright, sure.

I'll believe you when you play a L30+ UD and post a rep of it working, Morkeliph. Until then, I'll just use the gyros.

GenocideAlive

04-05-2007, 8:16 PM

Of course, Mork gains a little credibility when you take into account UDs / NEs that toss in a Panda third for their nukes. The far more hardy Dragonhawks' Shackle is unaffected by Drunken Haze (other than to take extra damage from Breath of Fire); you couldn't solo 12 Dragonhawks with a Panda. Not to mention that you can use Priests to Heal them or use a healing scroll or Holy Light. None of those options are available for Flying Machines. OFC, the tradeoff is that Dragonhawks can in turn be hit with the other UD nukes.

I'm going to hedge a little here and say that it depends whether or not you brought workshops into your build. If you went up the caster tech tree, odds are you'd be better off with the Hawks for Slow + Heal + Inner Fire. If you went mostly Workshop for either Tanks, FMs, or Mortars, you're probably better off with FMs assuming you don't see any Wyrms being made. Most good AoE splash on Wyrms is negated by their huge collision size.

Prozerran

04-06-2007, 11:05 AM

I agree with GA. Most, but not all, UD's go for Destro's to counter Hu Casters early, then maybe add in Wyrms later. It doesn't make much sense, if you've already massed Gyro's, to throw up two Aviaries and abandon production of FM's to invest more resources only into Hawks... especially when UD doubles up on Crypts and can spend fewer resources to counter with Gargs. Sure, in a perfect macro situation, you'd want Hawks against Wyrms, but there are too many uncertainties to say in effect, "Hawks will always work better." Rifle/Caster to Knight/Priest/Mortar is a very effective strategy against UD, and it doesn't require an Aviary at all so why bother when you can splash FM's to counter the first couple of Wyrms that come out?

On the other hand, if you start massing hawks when you hit Tier 2, it may be worth it to stick with some kind of Knight/Priest/Hawk/Gryph madness, but it usually only works well if your opponent goes for Fiends/Stats/Aboms. Just look out for a Fiend build or a Ghoul build at the start. I generally stay clear of the Aviary against UD. The Workshop counters just about everything UD can throw at you accept Aboms, and I can work through the Fiend/Aboms with Knights and Priests with some good positioning.

Blacker

05-19-2007, 5:42 AM

OK,ppl,let's revive this thread...

I was tomorrow in game-room and I played with some guy 1v1.I was UD and he was NE.He was on very quick tier2 and he started to mass Dryads and M.giants.He had around 6 dryads and 5 MGs.I massed CF and few gouls.When I attacked him,I destroyed him in once.He was on DH and Warden,me on CL and DK.Game finished after 15 mins.

So,I got question:
It was very easy to kill those MG,soo,for what in most situations SERVES MGs?

h0bgawblin

05-19-2007, 12:57 PM

I have been using both FM's and hawks against undead as of late. I REALLY think that using about 3-4 hawks with 12 or more gyros is super effective. Then again, late game against ud I prefer mass air because I'll be harassing with my pally. Air is simply easier to harass with.

To blacker, I had a game where I faced MG's and he was using the warden. He would chase down my archmage, then use taunt to nail my running heros/units. Other than that, thier food count and cost makes them hardly viable in my opinion. I used to play NE, and I found mg's really hard to throw into the mix of things because of thier build time. I could have 3 dryads or 1.5 bears out by the time the giant came out (that's sort of a guestimate).

Prozerran

05-19-2007, 12:58 PM

I imagine mass MG's are to NE what mass Tanks are to Human. If NE expo's and goes for the longer game, mass MG's might be viable. If your opponent tried to win a fight with MG/Dryad, I'd say you should have won regardless. To my knowledge, MG's are best used as siege units. When your opponent comes to stop your MG's from destroying your base, you use taunt to keep your opponent's units confused from attacking one MG to another. It's actually quite micro-intensive.

Blacker

05-19-2007, 6:27 PM

Oh,yeah,sure it's siege unit somehow...

But why would someone mass DR and MG?

h0bgawblin

05-19-2007, 7:49 PM

Question: How would you counter dark ranger/archers when your human. I've come up with AM/pally which is GREAT, until bears, which owns me.

Question 2: How does one best practise timing. IE tier 2 expoing, tier 2 pushing, 80 food push, ect ect.

Statement 1: I played 3 hours of warcraft 3 today, and was able to get up and walk away from it like it was nothing. I am enjoying swimming far more, and hopefully I will get to enjoy life outside of solitude again. 3 cheers for me!

Question 3: "You still play like a homo" "your the gayest human ever, but I'm still going to win" Who is that, and guess what tactic I used.

Prozerran

05-20-2007, 5:34 PM

Q3 Answer: A replay would be helpful. I'm guessing it's Cole because he always bitches about Human and any strategy that beats him is "the gayest" ever. He's also cocky, so it is no surprise he still believes he will win. I have no idea what tactic you used. It could have been T1 towering against NE. Cole bitched about that a lot for a while.

h0bgawblin

05-20-2007, 10:08 PM

Wow proz, closer than I thought, but I think cole actually had grounds for complaining in this game. I tried to tier 1 tower him, but the map was far too big (he went hunts). After the tier 1 tower push failed, I decided that the only way to stay in the game was to get an expo and tower. After getting that expo up, I got to tier 2 and attempted to make another expo. Cole creep jacked me and killed my archmage. I responded by simply teching to tier 3 and trying to creep my mk while my AM ressurected. Thats when I saw cole trying to take out my expo, long story short, he lost some units. He would have done much better, but he decided not to counter expo. So the whole game consisted of me expoing and massing units to counter his. It was the day after his graduation and he said before playing that he stayed up till 6 am (he was tired and it did show in his micro). The game was saved, and pos-poned for another day.

xodkrm

05-23-2007, 8:12 PM

Q: How to counter UD's ghoul/garg dk/lich mid-T2 push, as night elf?

Prozerran

05-23-2007, 10:38 PM

A: Archer/Chippo.

cole

05-26-2007, 8:31 AM

A: Archer/Chippo.

I wasnt aware NE had chims at t2. But id say archer/a few hunt/ and a shitload of dryads would work fine along with dh panda.

RedRagToAnOrc

05-26-2007, 10:36 AM

Q: How to counter UD's ghoul/garg dk/lich mid-T2 push, as night elf?

DH/Panda, Archers, Dryads and put up a tower or two in your base to deter Gargoyle harrassment. Alternatively, spread your Wisps around the map in obscure places so the Gargoyles can't get to them. After that, just hide behind your Ancients and Mana Burn the DK/BoF nuke the Gargoyles if he chooses to walk in.

h0bgawblin

05-28-2007, 2:32 AM

I thought the beast master was the preference in this match up. By using the beast master, you can create enough front line fodder so the night elf army doesn't get owned. Does it depend on the map?

Prozerran

05-28-2007, 9:24 PM

I always thought hippo's countered Gargs at Tier 2, then Chims come out at Tier 3 and it's gg. How silly of me...

Blacker

05-28-2007, 11:53 PM

Q:How to stop NE's Chimeras with UD's?They realy harm me around...

h0bgawblin

05-29-2007, 3:55 AM

Gargs are the best AA in the game (in certain situations, gyros might be better). Gargs are generally a good idea to use in the night elf match up as undead. Using gargs counters air, drayds, and allows for the undead to harass the night elf from the skies. You can kill archers with your death knight, lich, and a crypt lord extremely easily. If the person decides to go hippos, let him, and make more gargs. If he decides to go bears, through in frosties. The only thing you'll have to worry about is a panda, but heal scrolls take care of that.

Blacker

05-29-2007, 6:09 AM

Yeah,I should try that with gargs,but I don't play them with,I oftenly run FMs,one of the most strongest AA units in entire wc3(as I think so).

Q:What UD army should I use against NE army,using Huntress/Archer/MG/Ch with DH/PotM and Warden?

Prozerran

05-29-2007, 8:46 AM

If you use MG's, I can't see how you plan to get around a large number of ghouls. Essentially, and GA and I have discussed this in another thread (I don't remember which), it doesn't make sense to use up your control on MG's against UD. I like mass air (Archer/Hippo/Mount) with DH or Warden adding Chims at Tier 3. Adding Panda slows your levels. It seems that it's better to stick with soloing a hero vs adding one for the sole purpose of countering one unit, Gargs. But bluh, I'm no pro NE player.

Blacker

05-29-2007, 11:05 AM

Sorry,but I hadn't undrstood you...:(

GenocideAlive

06-01-2007, 6:58 PM

NEs usually win in mass air contests for two reasons:

1. Hippos > Gargs
2. Panda

The only choice for the UD player is to get a good Nova off and try to use Vamp and Stone Form to gain an advantage. The tri-hero nuke here can do them a lot of good, especially in hit-and-run situations. If they can tag with their heroes and run off before the NEs can get over there to fight back, their hippos are very expensive and take a long time to build.

Long story short, if you go gargs, hit early and hit hard. Cut their wood out from under them and try to make sure that you keep them from teching safely. Once you've forced them into getting hippos, switch over to Fiend/Ghoul mid-tier 3 and creep hard. Hit after Frenzy and Web are researched. If you see a Bear tech, stick with your Gargs, and make tons of them. Add stats and get ready for a Chainmorph.

Blacker

06-01-2007, 7:12 PM

Looks good.I'll try that and soon I'll give you description of the game,maybe replay...

h0bgawblin

06-01-2007, 10:33 PM

Christ ga, how long have you been playing wc3?

wa123

06-02-2007, 9:52 PM

Did war3 reset and delete unactive player during feb 2007 - Jun 2007?
I notice my account was gone today, after now playing for a few months.

GenocideAlive

06-02-2007, 11:20 PM

Christ ga, how long have you been playing wc3?
5 years? 6? I lost count. But I guess that's it. I stopped playing when I stopped running into surprises and started seeing more abuse than strategy. For instance, tree-eating to creep camps is retardedly overpowered. If you get caught, you're in trouble, but honestly who harasses a DH?

cole

06-03-2007, 3:07 PM

I always thought hippo's countered Gargs at Tier 2, then Chims come out at Tier 3 and it's gg. How silly of me...

Notice he said "Tier 2 push"

Prozerran

06-03-2007, 6:57 PM

Point taken.

h0bgawblin

06-05-2007, 7:22 PM

"who harasses a dh?" true story...

Blacker

06-09-2007, 5:59 AM

Q:Are Meat Wagons realy usefull in combat?

h0bgawblin

06-10-2007, 11:47 AM

Meat wagons are pretty bad, but they do have some uses. Siege, necrowagon strat, they can be viable against siege tanks, but some prefure ghouls for that. However, siege does an amazing amount of damage, so I would try massing something like mortars against an easy computer. Wait until thier army size is substantial, then use the morts (with 2 black powder upgrades). You'll see how much damage those things do when there are a lot of them, it's fucking nutts. Siege in wc3 has a glass cannon concept to it.

Blacker

06-10-2007, 6:33 PM

Fine then...

GroG

06-10-2007, 9:45 PM

-Abomb/Wagon is good late game vs. NE (get desease cloud for abombs, and make sure wagons are FF dryads while abombs hold line and heroes are nuking)
-Wagon is good against a siege tank using human, both for breaking expos and for parking a few at expos
-necrowagon can sometimes be a solid tier 2 push strat vs. a tier 2 expo player (you won't get both of necros upgrades to execute this)
-wagons can be good vs caster human

glgl

GroG

07-24-2007, 12:11 AM

Can I charm a Mountain Giant with both skin upgrades?

GenocideAlive

07-29-2007, 1:13 PM

Yes.

The first skin upgrade is irrelevant, it just reduces damage.

The second classifies the MG as a hero for spell effects (not spell damage!).

But it doesn't matter, Charm overrides all spell immunity.

Chone

08-12-2007, 8:40 PM

How do you tell when to use DragonHawk Riders or go Flying Machines.? What is the mentalitity to go for which one?

Phenomenon

08-13-2007, 5:36 AM

How do you tell when to use DragonHawk Riders or go Flying Machines.? What is the mentalitity to go for which one?

Dragonhawks vs Heavy air like Chims and Wyrms.

Flying machines are best against massed air due to their splash damage.

Chone

08-13-2007, 2:32 PM

So let me get this right?

Dragonhawk - Wyrms, Chimys, Gryphon Riders

Flying Machines - Destoriers, Wyvren, and Hippos
Right?

What do you go for agansit the Chippo??

Phenomenon

08-13-2007, 3:10 PM

Then flying machines would make more sense because you actually get to take advantage of the splash damage.

Prozerran

08-13-2007, 4:49 PM

Here's a better idea. When you see a Panda, don't go Flying Machines.

FMs are GREAT against Chims and Frosties, but suck against Gryphs. Why? Gryphs have a faster attack speed. They'll get more than a few volleys off against your FMs where Chims and Frosties get maybe 2 off before they die. Hawks are easily countered by Fiends, who will more than likely be present if you're facing a uD going Frosties, and against NE, you're looking at heavy focus from Archers/Dryads and probably hippo abuse as well. Don't count on Hawks to save the day against NE. FM's are naturally the better answer in those situations.

Simply put, get Workshops and FMs against NE and uD. Get aviaries and Hawks against HU and Orc. Bats and Gryphs make this necessary most of the time.

cole

08-13-2007, 10:07 PM

If your in a HU mirror and hes massing gryphs i wouldnt even bother making hawks or FMs. Just do typical am/mk/pal rifle caster with poly and hell get shitfaced raped between slow/poly and rifle focus fire, along with WEs and bolt. But dhawks>FMs vs gryphs because youll be losing FMs so rapidly vs gryphs that it wouldnt be worth it.

h0bgawblin

08-17-2007, 11:06 AM

I prefer FM's in this scenario if it's available for mainly 1 reason. FM's counter gryphs AND hawks, as well as the fact that he isn't going to make FM's to counter your hawks because you already have FM's.

Prozerran

08-17-2007, 11:34 AM

Mass Gryphs will destroy mass FM's. It's sick. Healing scrolls make it worse, and Pally heal just hurts FFing. Meanwhile, your FM's are dying to Gryph AoE with storm hammer upgrade. Against Hawks, FM's will work fine, but not against Gryphs.

cole

08-17-2007, 11:59 AM

If you had 100 food mass gryphs vs 100 food mass FMs, id bet on the FMs anyday. If they had flak cannons upgrade.

h0bgawblin

08-17-2007, 1:47 PM

I'm with ronaldo on this one proz. I saw this play out when sky played insomnia. Insomnia scouted dual sanctums and teched to tier 3 for morts, while sky did his ussual towering thing. The morts forced sky back, and insomnia predicted the counter of gryphons, so he built fm's in prep. 12 fms beat back a fair number of gryphons. I'm no insomnia fan (mainly because I think there are better players out there now) but I had to give mad props to the dude.

Chone

08-17-2007, 3:03 PM

Prozerran

08-17-2007, 5:05 PM

http://www.warboards.org/showthread.php?t=29046

If you're using a router, this should solve your problem. If not, consult the Tech Annex on WB for more detailed help.

RedRagToAnOrc

08-17-2007, 5:26 PM

No matter how hard I try I can't play arranged team. Why?
Simply because if my friends invite me and I accpect it says that it couldn't start or something like that. Samething goes for if I invite them, also this happens to all the friends I try to invite not just one person, same when all my friends try to invite me. I even tried shutting down my firewall temporarily so it would work. has this happaned to anyone else and if it has, whats the solution.

This is to do with forwarding ports on your router or firewall or whatever. It's a common problem that about a third to half (in my experience of things) of BNet players experience at some point. Open ports 6112 to 6117 on your router firewall or other firewall.

http://www.warboards.org/showthread.php?t=24411

Damn, Proz, you got there first. :D

Chone

08-27-2007, 4:09 PM

Just got into 4v4 and I have some questions.

What is "CC"?

What the difference between "CC and rush"?

GenocideAlive

08-28-2007, 12:18 PM

(C)reep and (C)ounter. Basically the idea behind the strategy is to build units, creep, scout your opponent, and win with superior hero levels and unit counters. It's usually a fairly disastrous strat from what I've seen in RT, because it relies on communication and game knowledge to win. Both are pretty lacking in RT games.

"Rush" is pretty salient. You build units and get in your opponent's face ASAP. It's really good in team games against UD players, because they invariably go fiends. If you start riding him at the very start with two armies + heroes, it's extremely difficult for him to get rolling. You can delay his tech and pretty much hose his early game if you play right. Same with Night Elf, since their base defense is so pitiful.

Against Orc and HU players, it's pretty ineffective. Burrows and peasant micro + arcane can trash your armies in a hurry. You can end up burning a TP with no mana and all units in the red.

cole

08-29-2007, 2:46 PM

Actually in team games the hu/orc is often more targeted then the HU/UD. Nerub tower plus ghoul micro and a incoming dk can easily force a tp. And in 2v2 a good ancient/well setup is really deadly. With orc its easy to pick of grunts with things like dh/bm kotg/fs etc and that really sets the orc back. With ud they can keep their fiends alive with coil and such for the most part. Ne can also dispel t1 which helps vs fs/am. And even arcane tower doesnt necessarily fully counter harrass, you can get 1-2 peasants with a bm even if he has a arcane tower usually. Not to mention l2 farseer peasant rape (Which i showed hob) can be devastating vs hu.

RedRagToAnOrc

08-29-2007, 2:50 PM

Actually in team games the hu/orc is often more targeted then the HU/UD.

That's in AT. In RT, they just go for whatever base they feel like.

GenocideAlive

08-29-2007, 3:23 PM

Phenomenon

08-29-2007, 8:01 PM

Thing is though, they don't wander in while your peons are already inside the burrows. So when he runs in to harass your peons whatever, you only notice when he starts attacking and you get the alert.

So its not 25DPS right away, its 25 DPS when you get your peons in, and burrows are stupidly easy to kill.

I'd dance around an Orc or NE base long before I'd go near UD or HU (provided they were reasonably intelligent about base build).

cole

08-29-2007, 9:23 PM

Actually, a UD that's attempting to get fiends won't really "rape" anything with 3 ghouls, a fiend, and a late hero. You can have Moon micro, but you can't make ghouls beat 2 grunts, 2 wolves, a FS, and whatever else may be running around. Even if you manage to beat them back, you have lumber problems afterwards. NEs are equally ineffective, since you can't build ancients until you've got a Hunter's Hall, which requires the very expensive 100W and a ridiculous build time. There's little either a fiends-UD or a NE can do to make DPS that isn't there.

On the other side of the coin, it's very difficult for opponents to chase grunts into 25DPS towers sitting around the Orc base. Additionally, running into an arcane may be dandy for a BM to take out 2 peasants, but it really fucks him on the back end when you build a farm or use unit-plugs to close your base. Then the HU uses Call to Arms and you force a TP. Not too many people are dumb enough to wander into HU/Orc bases, considering the speed with which they can bring a ton of DPS bearing down.

If the orc has fs and two grunts then the ud should already have dk and 2-3 fiends along with ghouls and a tower which would easily beat a l1 farseer back. Granted if he speed scroll and was l2 then he could aco rape and speed scroll out. And you have to know how to play bm vs hu, you always watch your mana and save enough for a quick getaway. Though farm blocking is annoying, but if were talking about RT then how many RT players have the brains to do that? Not many. Even in AT its rare. Solo its alot more common.

Also with my l2 farseer harrass i can roughly kill around 5-8 peasants easily if all he has is a arcane tower up. Phenom, i should show that to you. Youll like it. It gives you a nice lil advantage vs hu. Which is rare in itself.

h0bgawblin

08-29-2007, 10:03 PM

This might have been asked before, but if you possess a kodo with a unit in it, what happens to the unit inside?

BTW, I can't resist saying this in the context of RT. You want to win in 4v4 rt? Here is the answer for your victory unless you have a bser (like me). http://youtube.com/watch?v=DiHcL3KwcLA

GenocideAlive

08-30-2007, 10:33 AM

Thing is though, they don't wander in while your peons are already inside the burrows. So when he runs in to harass your peons whatever, you only notice when he starts attacking and you get the alert.
I guess we're on different playing levels. I don't need an alert to know someone's attacking, and my in-range burrows tend to stay stocked with 2-3 wood peons during early skirmishes at my base. If they're going to be following a retreating grunt in, I just burrow-B click and amp it up. I don't see too many games with people trying to push Orcs.
So its not 25DPS right away, its 25 DPS when you get your peons in, and burrows are stupidly easy to kill.
They're stupidly easy to kill if left undefended--which is kind of the point. It'd be stupidly difficult to siege or harass an Orc early if his burrows were hard to kill. They already present plenty of problem if you load with peons and repair.

And frankly I don't know why you're so petrified of an early UD base going fiend build. Unless you're scared that 3 ghouls and a fiend are going to take out your hero and units. The cold tower will help with FF, sure, but when you've got two armies bearing down it's not nearly as useful. You'll have to come out and fight to take advantage of the FF, and that's a bad idea when you've got half the DPS of your opponent's army and freezing your wood economy on top of that.

I keep getting the impression that you two are discussing attacking a UD base that's been permitted to build fiends and DK for about 2 minutes. Sure, that's a hell of a problem--he's been allowed to take advantage of his build. But if you doublteam before he can do anything (eg, creep a green and go straight for his base), you're in great shape to totally fuck him over. A cold tower isn't going to change much with that many units, and if you're stupid enough to put a ranged INT hero next to the tower, you deserve to lose your TP.

Phenomenon

08-30-2007, 11:16 AM

If you can reliably notice someone running into your base on the minimap while your attention is elsewhere, then well nice, I rarely do (and I am pretty sure that I am far from alone in this) :P

The main problem with burrows as defense though, as I see it, are that you are basically delaying your t2 units because you are cutting off the lumber supply which you really need as quickly as possible at the stage where you are going from t1 -> t2.

Two completely full burrows dont do a whole lot against a melee hero or defended foots. A lvl1/2 blademaster can stand outside two full borrows long enough to kill one if its not repaired, and then if you repair your peons will all be in the red. Which means after running out and salving up its going to be one hit each. I'm pretty sure a DK and DH can do similarly.

And AFAIK, Peons repair a lot slower than peasants do, and its pretty easy to kill a burrow even with 3/4 peons repairing it. And while the peons are repairing your burrow isn't doing anything to damage the opponent. Would be nice if Orc can receive some burrow love, either in a faster repair rate or more HP/Armour, just anything to not make burrow rape so easy.

But yes I am talking beyond the really early harassment now.

cole

08-30-2007, 12:43 PM

Footmen with defend along with WEs and fiends will easily demolish burrows. You have to take in consideration pathing and such when it comes to the ud base and if you do in fact keep your fs out of the range of a tower then that means he wont be doing anything at all besides summoning free exp wolves for a dk. I rarely even kill 1 aco if i harrass a ud early game with fs/grunt(level 1 fs) unless the UD sucks, tbh.Its alot harder then it seems. And aco regen on blight isnt bad at all. With hu you can guarantee a peasant kill or two, and fs harrass can be good vs them if used right because theres no slow to delay wolves from picking off peasants. And youd have to be stupid to let a arcane tower focus your fs for 30 seconds.

Sure burrows are good early game defense but past that point they become nothing more then targets until you get fortified. So many things can easily rape them. Even so its possible to lose a peon or two to carelessness and persistent harrassing.

Harrassing a NE is often pretty ineffective, walled in wisps, ancients, wells, wisps in goldmine. Makes it rather pointless to a degree unless you harrass a ne in 2s at least with something like dh/bm where you can drain his wells fast.

GenocideAlive

08-30-2007, 6:30 PM

Wow. OK, so I've addressed each of your points multiple times a piece, yet you continue to spout the same weasel words and reiterate the same failed arguments. I am unsure as to why this is even continuing, other than my own asinine persistence. It's asinine, because I should just be content that I know what I'm talking about and move on.
The main problem with burrows as defense though, as I see it, are that you are basically delaying your t2 units because you are cutting off the lumber supply which you really need as quickly as possible at the stage where you are going from t1 -> t2.
I note you fail to address the fact that lumber ghouls bring this same problem, as well as peasants. Everybody's economy suffers during the use of workers for DPS (save Elf, whose production suffers). It's no contributor to any sort of "proof" that Orcs are better harassment targets.
Two completely full burrows dont do a whole lot against a melee hero or defended foots. A lvl1/2 blademaster can stand outside two full borrows long enough to kill one if its not repaired, and then if you repair your peons will all be in the red. Which means after running out and salving up its going to be one hit each. I'm pretty sure a DK and DH can do similarly.
First of all, the BM is one of the absolute worst harassing heroes to attempt to take on an Orc base. Spiked Barricades, repairing peons, and invincible peons in burrows while repairing are all fantastic against melee heroes.
Second of all, the DK has the worst DPS of all the melee heroes in the game.
Third of all, 50DPS in piercing damage against the Blademaster's ~20DPS in normal is going to beat the Blademaster easily. Especially considering that if the Blademaster stops attacking the burrow to attack peons, you can put the peon immediately in the burrow (WELL BEFORE RED) and save it. Then the Blademaster still has the problem of not having any kills and not having any HPs. If he sticks around to harass workers and still manages any number of kills, you've got serious problems. How long are you simply going to leave an enemy hero at your base to jack around?
Fourth, how the hell did they get defended foots at early harassment? How many foots do they have, 2? It's not until almost tier 2 that defended Foots pose any problem to Burrows, and even then, Grunts and pretty much any Orc hero are a HUGE problem for Foots.
And AFAIK, Peons repair a lot slower than peasants do, and its pretty easy to kill a burrow even with 3/4 peons repairing it. And while the peons are repairing your burrow isn't doing anything to damage the opponent. Would be nice if Orc can receive some burrow love, either in a faster repair rate or more HP/Armour, just anything to not make burrow rape so easy.
You should really look up "weasel words". Peons don't repair slower than Peasants, and if you've only got 4 peons involved in base defense, that might be why you're having such difficulty with base defense. Burrows are plenty strong--they're not meant to be stand-alone defenses for Orc to ignore harassment. If burrows took 30s to take out with a full army, Orcs wouldn't even have to bother TPing back, they could walk every game. 25DPS farms and invincible workers is plenty. If you're still having problems, switch to UD and try to manage with them.
Footmen with defend along with WEs and fiends will easily demolish burrows. You have to take in consideration pathing and such when it comes to the ud base and if you do in fact keep your fs out of the range of a tower then that means he wont be doing anything at all besides summoning free exp wolves for a dk. I rarely even kill 1 aco if i harrass a ud early game with fs/grunt(level 1 fs) unless the UD sucks, tbh.Its alot harder then it seems. And aco regen on blight isnt bad at all. With hu you can guarantee a peasant kill or two, and fs harrass can be good vs them if used right because theres no slow to delay wolves from picking off peasants. And youd have to be stupid to let a arcane tower focus your fs for 30 seconds.
Wow, where to begin. Aco regen on blight is 2/s. Nothing that's going to save them. Wolves are not "free exp wolves for DK" because of a slow tower--if he's focusing your Wolves, you and your partner shouldn't have too much trouble focusing his ghouls and getting easy exp. He can kill all the free summons he wants, Ghouls cost money and damage his economy. Either way, L1 Coil at tier 1 isn't going to be saving badly out-DPS'd ghouls vs. two armies. Additionally, running your wolves into peasants won't work very well if he uses them in groups of 4. Arcane deals bonus damage to the already-low HP wolves, and it may not slow, but it kills them quickly when peasants turn around and immediately change to militia. On top of that, once you cast wolves with your FS you're running 75 mana shorter, and it takes about 10s of Arcane focus (not 30) before he's running on empty with mana. Then what? Basic peasant micro of militia then running with the focus'd peasant while letting other peasants and tower get free hits rapes harass over and over.

Meanwhile, a tier 1.0 DK that's going fiends in a team game has a low-dmg, low-output tower and three lumber ghouls to try to hold off two armies. Oh, and 2hp/s regen for his acos. Orc has 50DPS in burrows sitting there and a hero + grunt(s) to back it up. Don't sit there and tell me that poor, poor Orc is a better target than big, bad UD.

cole

08-30-2007, 7:00 PM

Wow, where to begin. Aco regen on blight is 2/s. Nothing that's going to save them. Wolves are not "free exp wolves for DK" because of a slow tower--if he's focusing your Wolves, you and your partner shouldn't have too much trouble focusing his ghouls and getting easy exp. He can kill all the free summons he wants, Ghouls cost money and damage his economy. Either way, L1 Coil at tier 1 isn't going to be saving badly out-DPS'd ghouls vs. two armies. Additionally, running your wolves into peasants won't work very well if he uses them in groups of 4. Arcane deals bonus damage to the already-low HP wolves, and it may not slow, but it kills them quickly when peasants turn around and immediately change to militia. On top of that, once you cast wolves with your FS you're running 75 mana shorter, and it takes about 10s of Arcane focus (not 30) before he's running on empty with mana. Then what? Basic peasant micro of militia then running with the focus'd peasant while letting other peasants and tower get free hits rapes harass over and over.

Well one minute you go from talking about early game orc harrass vs ud now you change it to two armys. Its like were comparing apples and carrots. If its just a orc and farseer one grunt all you have to do is use cold tower to ff grunt and attack it with skellys/dk/ghoul/fiend and that orc will almost defiantly be down 200 g from losing a grunt if he goes in with a grunt. Compared to MAYBE 75 g from losing a aco. And l1 coil is still effective vs harrass, i dunno what your talking about there. If they already have two decent armys then the UD should have a sizeable number of fiends which will make things hard for those two armys because of pathing which you even admitted earlier so its like your contradicting yourself.

And you make countering fs harrass with HU sound alot simpler then it is. The fact is youll be having to do alot of serious multitasking to prevent from losing a peasant or two.

Blacker

08-31-2007, 9:53 PM

I got one nice question for you:

Q:Why are 5 ghouls at Tier3 stronger than 6 CFs on tier3 too?

Chone

09-01-2007, 6:39 PM

I got one nice question for you:

Q:Why are 5 ghouls at Tier3 stronger than 6 CFs on tier3 too?
Not always true, majority of land units (if not all) deal normal damage, crypt fiends have medium armor. Normal Damages inflicttes extra damage to mediom armor. If the opponent goes air, fiends will shine, also some air units deal magic damage, an ghouls have heavy armor, so there magic attacks do extra damage to the ghouls. **Also ghouls have freny.** So it really depends on the situation.

GenocideAlive

09-02-2007, 1:12 PM

If you're losing with 6 fiends vs. 5 ghouls, you've got problems. The only way that Ghouls should logically win is if he has some sort of gross hero advantage or he's got a high level DL that can Sleep your DK.

Blacker

09-03-2007, 6:04 PM

thx for that guys (i was with ghouls,and true,i was put dk in dreams with dl)

Chone

09-07-2007, 9:02 PM

Why do people use Panda second in human mirror?

h0bgawblin

09-07-2007, 9:21 PM

This was asked in wcr, and the answer was interesting.

If they pick MK, you can just go tier3 and beat them that way. MK can't push you the way a panda can, so they will also have to go tier3, and in that case, panda wins.

GenocideAlive

09-08-2007, 3:47 AM

Because AoE hoses HU units, and the Panda's AoE has many advantages over others--mostly in that it's instant and the affected units are slowed. So not only do they have no way to avoid damage, they also struggle to run away to avoid the finish. Additionally, he can damage towers, Tanks, and Gyros with Fire Breath.

h0bgawblin

09-08-2007, 1:09 PM

Chone

09-08-2007, 1:36 PM

Ok thanks for the advice, now for another question, I'm having difficulties against Night elf. Hunts are just simply destroying me in tier 1. I hate using rifleman so I just make three guard towers or should I just make 2424242 footmen and get some mercenaries if there are any on the certain map I'm playing on? I don't rely on tower rushing because sometimes it fails, and its not really fun to do. If I make it to tier 2, how many breakers, sorceress and preistshould I get, also should I get adept upgrades for them. If I reach tier 3 should I add knights...? Gryphon's aren't an option simply because of dryads focus firing. What do I also do if they get faerie dragons, should I get hawks or what?

Prozerran

09-08-2007, 11:06 PM

What GA says is also very true, and most of those things show up in late game as well. An mk late game simply doesn't have the versatility and dps that a panda does at that point. And the breakers, which own panda, will lose to knights late game (if you use priests to dispell). Additionally, should he go knights, your aoe will OWN his knights pretty hard. If he goes gryphons, he won't be able to counter gyros/hawks. However, and I learned this the hard way yesterday, don't try to contend with the mk during tier 2. Just creep that panda to the high levels and stop him from expanding.

Are you kidding? High level Storm Bolt gives you ALL the versatility you could ever WANT, not to mention ridiculous dps AND stun for surrounds. The best thing about Panda in the late game is his Ultimate, and he needs level 6. MK is dangerous at lvls 4 & up. If anything, I would argue that the MK is MORE versatile the later you get into the game.

xodkrm

09-09-2007, 12:59 AM

Panda's fire and haze skill combo is more useful than his ulti.
You can just run away from the ulti - thats what i do.

Prozerran

09-09-2007, 4:33 AM

Panda's fire and haze skill combo is more useful than his ulti.
You can just run away from the ulti - thats what i do.

Bleh, on the surface, the Haze/BoF combo seems strong, but in the late game it's mostly a Dota fest of losing units while battling in hero micro wars. Storm Bolt ruins Panda's day. Losing a hero in the late game usually turns the tide in your favor.

h0bgawblin

09-11-2007, 6:50 PM

Bleh, on the surface, the Haze/BoF combo seems strong, but in the late game it's mostly a Dota fest of losing units while battling in hero micro wars. Storm Bolt ruins Panda's day. Losing a hero in the late game usually turns the tide in your favor.

staff of teli, staff of sanctuary, potion of invulerabilitiy, potion of healing, potion of invisability, invisability, the list goes on. What can your peasants do when a panda walks in, what can they do to counter gryphon/priest/knight with some gyros in the mix? That aoe cuts your options into squat, it's just too lethal. What's he going to do, use breakers against your knights? If he goes knights vs your knights, your up an advantage even if you decide to respec blizz/clap. Mk is powerfull, but the panda owns human in the face. And with brilliance aura to boot, your asking for a whoopin if you go anything else (that's an exageration, but a panda limits your options at tier 3, which is why it's more versatile). That doesn't stop me though!

As for countering hunts you have 2 options. Tower rush the night elf, or make a fast expansion with towers. Hunts come out VERY late, use that to your advantage and get a leg up before they come in with anything else. Additionally, I wouldn't recommend rifles vs hunts. The hunts still do a fair amount of damage, and if you get too many rifles you get WTF PWN SAUCED by bears. Instead, if you fast expanded, go dual sanctums with mortars. It will own anything he has to offer.

However, tower rushing is the safer bet, but I often times don't feel like cheesing.

Chone

09-16-2007, 3:29 PM

Time for another question, in human mirror wouldn't be good to add the goblin alchemist as a third hero? He does amazing damage at level 1 and his chemical rage goes really well with that high damage output. Also his acid bomb is like an Undead orb. Thoughts?

Also, AoE spells doesn't seem to have any affect on spell immune units, so if its a breaker war, the pandas bof/drunken haze won't really shine and he'll be usless.

cole

09-16-2007, 9:45 PM

No, alchemist isnt really that good at all. So what if he can reduce armor, its effect is mediocre at best, the only ability i find useful is his ult which is actually pretty good, heal spray can be decent at times but hard to use, and the rest is kinda shitty. A paladin third would be alot more useful. And if its a breaker war then you add morts and eventually the other player adds morts and panda shines again. Adaptation. And i find MK alot more dangerous then panda. Pandas ult isnt really that great. Well thats considering i play Orc though. But level 2 and 3 bolt is ridiculous and a bolt/clap combo+some focus fire is basically a dead orc hero. Even with pots its hard to counter, i faced it on a bad day but axslav still demonstrated this to me.

h0bgawblin

09-20-2007, 6:49 PM

Prozerran

09-20-2007, 7:39 PM

The problem with mk is that he doesn't do well in tier 3. However, in a pure breaker wars, mk shines like you wouldn't believe. A panda can wtf own foots, and while your teching to tier 3 in response to the mk, you'll be able to use your foots while owning his. Mk cannot touch a human base, where as if he went panda or fl it would be much more difficult to safely tech. When you reach tier 3, add morts to counter his mass caster. Ask yourself this, what's he going to do to counter your morts?

He COULD go morts, but chances are he will go gryphons, and what owns gryphons? gyro copters decimate gryphons. What in gods name is he going to do against a high level panda? The gyros will explode. Secondly, if he goes dragon hawk riders, YOU can go gyro copters, and what will he do vs those without BoF.

These are some of the reasons why the panda shines in human mirror vs mk.

I like the Panda, don't get me wrong, but here's the problem with your view of Gryphs. Take it for what it's worth.

First, you have these infamous breaker wars that deplete heroes of mana. So, Panda can probably get off two, maybe three BoFs before he's completely out of mana. So, when you get morts to tip the scales and your opponent gets Gryphs, your response is not FM's, it's Hawks, which build faster than Gryphs so you'll never be outproduced by your opponent. Hawks can survive two BoF's and more with Healing Scrolls, which don't do shit for FM's. If you're going FM's against an opponent going Panda, you're just not using sound judgment.

Second, the counter in the mirror to Morts is Knights, which quickly run through the front lines to kill your slow moving Morts. So, if you're getting Gryphs against Morts, you're going to lose to an opponent that knows Hawks build faster and can manage shackling effectively. Gryphs counter Foots and Knights, and a lot of the Hu mirror from my hay day was to get Morts and Gryphs, then Knights and Hawks. This way, you stick it to your opponent ahead of time so he has no answer. If he gets Morts, Knights kill them. If he gets Gryphs, Hawks solve. FM's are NOT a counter to Gryphs. At 975 HP, the only counter to Gryphons is merely to disable them, not immediately kill them.

MK comes into play here, because when you get Gryphs down to low HP levels you can simply bolt and focus them down. I like the Panda and all, but most games I see where one player goes Panda and the other MK, the player with the MK usually wins. That's just simple observation.

h0bgawblin

09-20-2007, 8:47 PM

panda vs mk if the mk user gets gryphons, you can respond with fm's and he won't do crap. Panda vs mk panda has gryphs and mk tries to counter with hawks, hawks will be countered by fm's and mk user will not be able to stop the fm's. The way human mirror works is one giant game of rocks paper scissors. When you add the panda you can't use rock. When you opt to NOT use the panda, your fighting rock paper scissors with paper and scissor. Knights won't be able to get through the breakers to the morts as easily as that. So you'll be able to fight off the knights till your gryphons show up.

Oh and just to add to this, I found this really cool video that's getting me hot for sc2.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Jen46qkZVNI

GroG

09-20-2007, 11:02 PM

Why don't you get gryphs and 3-4 tanks w/ barrage, then run around your gryphs vs gyros? If he runs gyros he loses his casters to gryph, if he fights he loses his gyros to barrage, plus it wouldn't require the large amounts of micro of other combinations. Also, if you go MK/BM, you can banish/bolt Panda and also siphon his mana. The nuke would mix perfectly with the gryphs stacking+ff as well as magic damage.

Tanks would also help break his expo or pick off buildings to gain an advantage, especially with gryph ff tower flying away, rinse repeat.

Just a suggestion.

h0bgawblin

09-22-2007, 12:47 PM

Impressive points grog, these are things I didn't think about. I'm glad your around to think outside the box, I was very fixated on the cookie cutter human MU. This also makes my mk first strat more viable, wippy.

GroG

09-22-2007, 2:55 PM

If you do that build, you might want to consider getting an arcane tower at tier 1, and when teching to tier 2 get a guard tower because you'll really only want hero+4 footies until you get to tier 3 (unless you build 4-5 dhawks to harass lumber peons while you creep or pick off mortars when they push you), and if they push you it might be a bit rough.

glgl let me know how it works for ya

GenocideAlive

09-26-2007, 12:04 PM

Prozerran, I can agree with your analysis to some extent. However, saying that someone could go Mortar/Hawk and win a game is rather difficult to process. Frankly, I don't even bother getting a counter for mortars until they have 4+ mortars. Hero attention on Mortars is devastating, they have no mechanical status, low HP, and shitty move.

Getting 3-4 Gryphs to counter them is a worthy investment, because they can outmanuever the mortars quite easily. If your opponent brings in Hawks, you can look at it like this: 4 food in Mortars = 12 food, 4 Hawks = 12 food. 4 Gryphs = 16 food. You now have a 8 food differential that you can use to do whatever you want, even buy 2 more Gryphs. Hawks roll up and Shackle 4 Gryphs, you Bolt one to cancel Shackles and that leaves you with 3 Gryphs vs. 3 immobile Hawks and 1 moving Hawk. Certainly winnable.

In order to win like this, the "countering" mortar/hawk player needs to outfood the Gryphs rather badly. Bolt cancels Shackles and without Shackles to remove Gryph DPS and deal that rather neat 40dmg/s, Hawks will get annihilated. The problem is, mortars are rather one-dimensional and are generally worthless without some kind of significant meatshield.

Thus, the mortar/hawk player has a significant dilemma. How to counter basic combat units? 3 WEs / Blizz, an MK, and a Pally are already a huge problem. They can pick off Mortars and Hawks basically at their leisure, as indirect mortar damage and Hawk piercing damage won't tip the scales fast enough. You're going to need excellent army cohesion and a lot of attention to basic army unity in movement, as any type of encounter with enemy heroes that features less-than-optimal placement is going to have costly results.

Of course, if you encounter an army of pure Gryphs, you should do OK assuming you didn't go wild with mortars. But then, if he picks up a Dark Ranger instead of a Pally third, he can AoE jank your Shackle. It's not an easy scenario.

Prozerran

09-26-2007, 6:55 PM

GA:

True. I think in the context of the discussion I was thinking that Mortar/Hawk would work if your opponent didn't go MK and chose Panda instead. Therefore, Bolt isn't going to be a big issue. Also, since Hawks build slightly faster than Gryphs, they can serve as a suitable counter to the Gryphs instead of FM's, which will all lose to BoF and Gryph damage. But then, we get into a stark reality that FM's counter Hawks rather brutally, which is why you'll need to retrain to Blizz if you don't win just to keep FM's from ruining your day.

And heroes do great damage against Morts. Hopefully, you won't let Breakers die, but anything can happen at that point. I dunno, the Morts tend to tip the scales in most of my games, especially when pushing hard late in Tier 2 on your way to Tier 3.

Chone

10-05-2007, 7:00 PM

I was wondering, I've been having difficulty with the hu/ne match up I was wondering if any of you are willing to train with me to get good at it. Now I'm also wondering how do you choose the specific opponent to play against on b-net. Also in the replay thread I thought I read something about nedech map hacking, how do you map hack, also aren't you not able to preform any sort of cheats on b-net or there be know point in playing?

GenocideAlive

10-05-2007, 7:24 PM

Are you talking about playing as HU vs NE, or are you talking about playing as NE vs. HU? You need to specify. Additionally, there are some pointers that people can give you if you explain a bit of your problem, and you'll probably be far more likely to get help that way since you probably play on Kalimdor.

Chone

10-05-2007, 10:57 PM

Yes I've received some pointers already and I would like to test them on sombody before I go no b-net, also I meant I'm hu vs a ne and I play on Azeroth.

Dayoh

10-06-2007, 6:22 AM

Ill play with u, im going to fucos on Nelf, add me on msn so we can easily organise some games (EMail in profile)

Chone

10-08-2007, 4:36 PM

How do you choose the specific opponents you want to play on battle-net example your friends...?

GenocideAlive

10-08-2007, 6:11 PM

You have to make custom games. It doesn't work on ladder games.

GroG

10-10-2007, 10:36 PM

Can a kodo devour an ethereal spiritwalker or a unit that has been banished by the Bloodmage?

h0bgawblin

10-11-2007, 7:12 AM

To add to grogs question, does kodo devour do magic damage (implying that it might do extra damage versus etheral or banished units)?

Chone

10-12-2007, 3:21 PM

How the hell do you counter imba dotts?

Reasons:
- Dott has long range attack / SW has short range attack
- Cyclone has quick cast time / Dispel has long cast time
- Mana burn has quick cast time / Shockwave has long cast time

Cyclone makes a hero not able to use ANY items or ANY abilities, give me a break. Ensnare you can pop a invun to break it, u can use any potion or item and still attack and use all your abilities. Cyclone lasts 6 seconds on a hero and can be spammed from all the talons so you have a hero that does nothing all fight its true it can dispelled but guess what? 150 mana cost 400 mana from a talon 20 talons, 40 cyclones = 40x6, oh haha i have units that can disable your hero for 240 seconds, only 4 minutes thats all? most my games only last 8-14 minutes. so i guess having a possibility of a total amount of 30% of a entire length of a game where my hero does nothing is balanced yea!!

dispell doesn't help when you have 20 dots 40 cyclones, dispell doesn't help when your walkers get hit by 5 wisps and all there mana is gone, dispell doesn't help when dots do magic damage and can focus spirit walkers easily in etheral form, dispell doesn't help when the dh uses his mana burn as a nuke on your spirit walkers, dispell doesn't help when you have 4 spirit walkers only able to dispell the cyclone on your hero 12 times and if you spam dispell on you ur heroes all ur mana on your walkers are gone, dispell doesnt help when you do dispell your hero they can instantly get cycloned again becuase since there is 20 dots there is no cool down on cyclone, dispell doesn't help. Have a perma cycloned hero = having a dead hero = lose game becuase of army of no army vs army + 3 heroes. Cyclone makes ur hero to be considered dead in the battle.

Conclusion: orc can't do shit vs mass dotts.