RedRagToAnOrc
02-23-2007, 9:43 AM
Another article originally posted by myself at WCR.
--------------------------------
Disclaimer: For those who will instantly reply and say "this is just theorycraft", I have a rather conclusive replay against a Level 34 Human player.
I know the title sucks, but what's the opposite of literal cookie cutting?
Orc vs Human has often been a trouble area for many players, myself included. For a good year or more, this matchup has been my worst. As I get better in the other matchups, I struggle to progress in this one, and I've always been under the impression that it's dragging my level and ELL down by 1 or 2 levels.
Despite watching replays of professionals playing the matchup, I was mystified. Where were they winning? The victories always seemed to happen when the Human player made a huge mistake, like letting their hero get surrounded, or didn't carry any Healing Scrolls with him against 5/5 Orc Chainwave.
So, as with other matchups in the past, I chose to see what I could find from an innovation point of view. Now, I'm not lying when I say that many of my past "innovational" strategies have fallen flat on their face (FS/Panda, Lusted Wyverns with TC First, et cetera), but this one is a little different.
As with all matchups where I try to innovate, I tried to think about what Human players were weak against, and what type of units my race had that could counter it. This is where my UD vs Orc strat (BM/FL Fiend/Nec/Shee) strategy originally came from, as well the Gruntapult vs NE, which has almost come to be my trademark.
So, what are Human players weak against? Answer instantly thought of, Area of Effect. High level Chainwave will destroy a Human army, but that's the very point - it needs to be high level to work efficiently, and only once you get 4/3 or 5/5 heroes will you really be able to push home the advantage when a Human player has Healing Scrolls.
An early game damage-dealer right from Level 1? Pandaren Brewmaster.
Now, why has no professional Orc ever really incorporated Panda first into their repetoire? Well, Orc doesn't really have a lot of synergy with Tavern heroes. Grunts provide a good meat shield for most of the game, so that's heroes like the Panda and Beastmaster straight out of the window. Heroes like the Naga are fragile and easily killed early on. And as for summon heroes, the Far Seer pretty much provides everything you're looking for.
So, if a Panda first doesn't synergise well with Grunts, why not try it with Headhunters? Having recently posted my One-Barracks Speed Headhunter build for Tavern heroes, which appears to have been received rather well so far, I decided to try it out.
The first few Human players I faced of my standard on varying accounts all followed the same pattern. They scouted my base and thinking "OMG what a n00b" immediately either attacked or tower rushed me. All except for the one Firelord tower rusher were pushed back (and he had to work pretty damn hard, because Headhunters > upgrading towers).
So, I powercrept the Panda as soon as they realise their mistake, and can usually reach Level 3 by Tier 2, especially with maps where there's a good route to Level 3.
My second hero? The Tauren Chieftain. In much the same vein as FS/TC, I creep him seperately to 2 once the Panda reaches 3, and then creep them both to 4/3. The Haze/BoF/Wave combo outdamages a Healing Scroll pretty easily, and is rather spammable with Mana Potions.
Ah, but what about a Tier 2 push, I hear you cry! Well, a Level 3 (even Level 2) Panda against Footmen, with Spirit Walkers at Tier 2 on the way, and Headhunters against towers. Oh, and that Tauren Chieftain that's just arrived. I find this self-explanatory, and indeed in the replay I'm posting as evidence, my opponent pushes me a few minutes into Tier 2 and... well, dies.
Shadow Hunter third once you've teched to Tier 3 (for Zerkers) works quite well once your other heroes are 4/3 or over on larger maps, giving you a sort of FFA style army with the addition of Tauren and Walkers. An expansion is advisable before you jump to 80 food, but I find that's not necessary, just a bonus.
As for units - well, the Headhunters and Spirit Walkers don't need to do work early on, as that honour falls to the Panda and TC, which demolsh almost anything a Human player can throw at you. The one real problem is Spell Breakers, and this is why you should really tech to Tier 3 and get a Pulverising Tauren or two out pretty quickly if your opponent chooses to do this.
So, the strategy in a nutshell;
Panda first with Headhunters, creep to 3. Check out my Speed Headhunter build.
Tech at 23 food, third Burrow at 27 food, get Headhunters up to 29 food.
Tech straight to Tier 3 and hire a TC when you reach Tier 2. You should have just enough gold to do this with no Tier 2 buildings.
Put up a Spirit Lodge asap, get Walkers and Mercs (optional) to 50 food.
Don't go above No Upkeep yet.
Optional expansion, Tauren Totem and Zerker upgrade at Tier 3. Jump to 80 food. Horde Healing Scrolls and mass creep until the Human player attacks you. Make sure you have Pulverise, 3 Tauren, and at least 3 Master Walkers.
The rest of the 80 food is taken up by your 2 or 3 heroes and Zerkers.
On to the replay. This is me a replay from my vast library of me against a Level 34 Human player. Pff, I hear you say, Level 34 sucks. Well, for the majority of people looking for a new strategy in OvH, it doesn't, and for me - I couldn't even hold my own against Level 32s before this strategy came along.
He does pretty much everything he should to counter the strategy. He attempts to keep the Panda below Level 3 at Tier 1 by harrassing my Burrows and Shop, making me repair and use up valuable resources. At Tier 2, he techs to Tier 3 and continues to keep me under the cosh, until a disastrous push where he kills my Panda at the expense of virtually his entire army (Panda = winnar!). He creeps and masses Caster/Mortar with a view to getting Knights, but I'm already there stopping him before he manages it.
Replay added to thread.
I hope you have good luck with this strategy should you choose to attempt it. The Speed Headhunter build can be found in the Article Altar.
Kindest regards,
-- Red
P.S. 28 units produced, 70 units killed, 4/4 heroes. Conclusive or what? :happy:
EDIT: For those who say "your opponent didn't play like he was Level 34" - just think about it for a second. The beauty of strategies like this, as I remember Noconce saying in an Audio once, is that although the best in the world will have a counter for everything, everyone else will wonder what the hell you're doing. I think my opponent probably got a little confused here until he realised that AoE owned him. :)
SECOND EDIT: Second replay added. This is me beating an ex-Level 39 for 8-0 solo. I'm telling you, this strategy is good.
--------------------------------
Disclaimer: For those who will instantly reply and say "this is just theorycraft", I have a rather conclusive replay against a Level 34 Human player.
I know the title sucks, but what's the opposite of literal cookie cutting?
Orc vs Human has often been a trouble area for many players, myself included. For a good year or more, this matchup has been my worst. As I get better in the other matchups, I struggle to progress in this one, and I've always been under the impression that it's dragging my level and ELL down by 1 or 2 levels.
Despite watching replays of professionals playing the matchup, I was mystified. Where were they winning? The victories always seemed to happen when the Human player made a huge mistake, like letting their hero get surrounded, or didn't carry any Healing Scrolls with him against 5/5 Orc Chainwave.
So, as with other matchups in the past, I chose to see what I could find from an innovation point of view. Now, I'm not lying when I say that many of my past "innovational" strategies have fallen flat on their face (FS/Panda, Lusted Wyverns with TC First, et cetera), but this one is a little different.
As with all matchups where I try to innovate, I tried to think about what Human players were weak against, and what type of units my race had that could counter it. This is where my UD vs Orc strat (BM/FL Fiend/Nec/Shee) strategy originally came from, as well the Gruntapult vs NE, which has almost come to be my trademark.
So, what are Human players weak against? Answer instantly thought of, Area of Effect. High level Chainwave will destroy a Human army, but that's the very point - it needs to be high level to work efficiently, and only once you get 4/3 or 5/5 heroes will you really be able to push home the advantage when a Human player has Healing Scrolls.
An early game damage-dealer right from Level 1? Pandaren Brewmaster.
Now, why has no professional Orc ever really incorporated Panda first into their repetoire? Well, Orc doesn't really have a lot of synergy with Tavern heroes. Grunts provide a good meat shield for most of the game, so that's heroes like the Panda and Beastmaster straight out of the window. Heroes like the Naga are fragile and easily killed early on. And as for summon heroes, the Far Seer pretty much provides everything you're looking for.
So, if a Panda first doesn't synergise well with Grunts, why not try it with Headhunters? Having recently posted my One-Barracks Speed Headhunter build for Tavern heroes, which appears to have been received rather well so far, I decided to try it out.
The first few Human players I faced of my standard on varying accounts all followed the same pattern. They scouted my base and thinking "OMG what a n00b" immediately either attacked or tower rushed me. All except for the one Firelord tower rusher were pushed back (and he had to work pretty damn hard, because Headhunters > upgrading towers).
So, I powercrept the Panda as soon as they realise their mistake, and can usually reach Level 3 by Tier 2, especially with maps where there's a good route to Level 3.
My second hero? The Tauren Chieftain. In much the same vein as FS/TC, I creep him seperately to 2 once the Panda reaches 3, and then creep them both to 4/3. The Haze/BoF/Wave combo outdamages a Healing Scroll pretty easily, and is rather spammable with Mana Potions.
Ah, but what about a Tier 2 push, I hear you cry! Well, a Level 3 (even Level 2) Panda against Footmen, with Spirit Walkers at Tier 2 on the way, and Headhunters against towers. Oh, and that Tauren Chieftain that's just arrived. I find this self-explanatory, and indeed in the replay I'm posting as evidence, my opponent pushes me a few minutes into Tier 2 and... well, dies.
Shadow Hunter third once you've teched to Tier 3 (for Zerkers) works quite well once your other heroes are 4/3 or over on larger maps, giving you a sort of FFA style army with the addition of Tauren and Walkers. An expansion is advisable before you jump to 80 food, but I find that's not necessary, just a bonus.
As for units - well, the Headhunters and Spirit Walkers don't need to do work early on, as that honour falls to the Panda and TC, which demolsh almost anything a Human player can throw at you. The one real problem is Spell Breakers, and this is why you should really tech to Tier 3 and get a Pulverising Tauren or two out pretty quickly if your opponent chooses to do this.
So, the strategy in a nutshell;
Panda first with Headhunters, creep to 3. Check out my Speed Headhunter build.
Tech at 23 food, third Burrow at 27 food, get Headhunters up to 29 food.
Tech straight to Tier 3 and hire a TC when you reach Tier 2. You should have just enough gold to do this with no Tier 2 buildings.
Put up a Spirit Lodge asap, get Walkers and Mercs (optional) to 50 food.
Don't go above No Upkeep yet.
Optional expansion, Tauren Totem and Zerker upgrade at Tier 3. Jump to 80 food. Horde Healing Scrolls and mass creep until the Human player attacks you. Make sure you have Pulverise, 3 Tauren, and at least 3 Master Walkers.
The rest of the 80 food is taken up by your 2 or 3 heroes and Zerkers.
On to the replay. This is me a replay from my vast library of me against a Level 34 Human player. Pff, I hear you say, Level 34 sucks. Well, for the majority of people looking for a new strategy in OvH, it doesn't, and for me - I couldn't even hold my own against Level 32s before this strategy came along.
He does pretty much everything he should to counter the strategy. He attempts to keep the Panda below Level 3 at Tier 1 by harrassing my Burrows and Shop, making me repair and use up valuable resources. At Tier 2, he techs to Tier 3 and continues to keep me under the cosh, until a disastrous push where he kills my Panda at the expense of virtually his entire army (Panda = winnar!). He creeps and masses Caster/Mortar with a view to getting Knights, but I'm already there stopping him before he manages it.
Replay added to thread.
I hope you have good luck with this strategy should you choose to attempt it. The Speed Headhunter build can be found in the Article Altar.
Kindest regards,
-- Red
P.S. 28 units produced, 70 units killed, 4/4 heroes. Conclusive or what? :happy:
EDIT: For those who say "your opponent didn't play like he was Level 34" - just think about it for a second. The beauty of strategies like this, as I remember Noconce saying in an Audio once, is that although the best in the world will have a counter for everything, everyone else will wonder what the hell you're doing. I think my opponent probably got a little confused here until he realised that AoE owned him. :)
SECOND EDIT: Second replay added. This is me beating an ex-Level 39 for 8-0 solo. I'm telling you, this strategy is good.