What's so bad about wood?

[h0bgawblin]

I've been trying to tech faster by dropping wood workers, and i've been having great success(from my games against the computer and comparing those games with my old replays). I don't build a third farm and sometimes not even an arcane tower. However, in pro replays I notice no one ever goes more than 7 wood workers(human), why? and when people harrass human, they never go for the wood workers, why? Why is gold so much more important than wood? I keep running into a problem in my orc mu, not enough wood to build 2 sanctums, get 3 ivories and my beast master. Also, I have to power build those suckers. But I ALWAYS have enough gold, so wouldn't it make sense to ditch some gold priority?

The reason this comes up, is that in my games before I took a break. My tech's were slower than the return of christ. So I dropped my ussual 8-9 wood workers and went for 7. I have found that i've needed to manage my wood better, other than that, it's been a plus. I also noticed my militia timing in my old replays sucked, and were off by sometimes 3 seconds. However, my biggest concern is that, since the comp doesn't harrass. I am getting way too used to a false sense of security and thusly sacrificing even the priceless arcane tower.

[GenocideAlive]

Generally people don't harass wood workers because they're too difficult to pin down. They have such a large area and arbitrary movement that it becomes far too hard to place a spell properly or physically attack them. Generally, the 5 peasants on gold are much easier to nail down because they have a very fine line they walk constantly. Just by parking a hero in their path or throwing down a spell, you're guaranteed 5 victims. That's not to say that I never go after wood workers (which are often inadequately defended), but that gold workers tend to be better targets.

In terms of pro human replays, I really don't know what to say. I don't watch a lot of replays and 7 peasants doesn't really seem like a whole hell of a lot. Generally you can skip the arcane if you build your base properly, but then you always take the risk of invis / nuke heroes getting in there with a TP staff. When that happens you've pretty much hit disaster, because they'll rip your shit to shreds without having to burn their scroll.

I tend to play more like ToD or AKM, though, because I really don't like HU tier 1. Their footies are the shittiest units in the game vs. everything but NE, in which they can be used for a tower rush. Yes, their creeping is omfg great, but everybody is waiting for the HUs to creep so they can harass with their BM/FS/DK/DH.

[GroG]

If I'm harassing with air, I'll almost always go after the wood peons (wyvs, gargs, destros, etc)

If I'm harassing with AOE like blizz/clap or FOK or something, I'll go after gold peons.

[Prozerran]

Pro Hu players usually don't tech until 30 control. There's a great reason for this too. If you build 3 farms, 5 foots, and a hero, that leaves you with 15 peasants, 10 being on lumber. This leaves you freedom to use 3 peasants as militia while defending from a harass without sacrificing resources. Some use a control group of 4 peasants to militia, leaving 6 on wood. However, if you're only going with 7 peasants on wood, when you're harassed and your opponent is skilled, you will find yourself severely crippled by the time you reach Tier 2. Get in the habit of going to 30 control before you upgrade to Keep. It's just a smarter way to play, and it will save you grievance later on.

[h0bgawblin]

This list of questions is going to be almost as large as my first post here.

Hmm, I have been hard pressed to find a quicker way to tech in my orc mu. without sacrificing wood.

Also, I get 3-4 foots, so It would only make sense to get more peasants on wood, no?

Is it unwise to build an arcane tower during the tech for a quicker tech? What are the risks, especially against orc.

when is the arcane vault ganna get the love(be built)?

what time is the most Ideal to start building a third farm, and should it always be a scout farm? (there is a vod of tod doing this really well, but youtube is down)

Even with a number like 8-9 peasants, I have found that militia creeping any more than two creeps is a damn waste of wood.

Last question that plagues me the most (I don't expect anyone to have an answer to this) why the hell doesn't any pro get more than 7 wood, there has to be a reason why one freakin pro does not do it with the cookie cutters.

[cole]

I actually used to harrass wood peasants alot with a L2 fs and grunts since a HU t2 push is wood reliant. Speed scroll in, ff and chain wood peasants.

[Dayoh]

when i first started playing the game, one of my friends who was a good player,told me 7 on wood, so thats how i do it, its just been like that ever since.

You also have the upgrades from your lumber mill that increases the amount of wood carried per peasent, i ussually invest in those.

Arcane towers are ussualy one of the first buildings to be constructed, the way i tech with human, I would go altar, Farm, Tower (Arcane), barracks.

If you feel urself short of wood build a mill early, this is the build i use for rifles and then whatever. Farm-Smith-Mill-Altar-Dual Rax. That works for me and i end up with enough wood from the get go, so incorperate an early mill in your build if need be.

EDIT: as you can tell from that i only played 2v2 and some solo.

[h0bgawblin]

Ah, this was the post you refered to the early mill, I missed it. However, I don't like losing the second farm, so i'm trying a more tod oriented build. I have found that, I am neither aggressive enough, nor do I creep as little, for sky's play style to work for me. (though I am trying to be more aggressive)

[Dayoh]

Aggressive play is good but one shouldnt stick to it for every game.
Prolly the best way to learn, i find is to not watch replays but get on Bnet and play, the only replays i used to watch were the big final of the big comps.

[cole]

Aggressive play is good but one shouldnt stick to it for every game.
Prolly the best way to learn, i find is to not watch replays but get on Bnet and play, the only replays i used to watch were the big final of the big comps.
depends on how the game plays out. Players like Sky and AKM often play aggresively because how the game tends to develope. And akm relies on it for his strat.

[h0bgawblin]

Sky is rediculiously offensive. I havn't seen his huVSud, but once he gets level 2, he's off. Forget creeping, this guy has got some balls, and is REALLY fun to watch. I saw him (get this) get almost to level 2 against grubby. Instead of finishing level 2, he goes for grubbies grunts instead of risking a creep jack. Gets a grunt, recieves level 2, and is content till he got his beast master. I was like, WTF, because he was REALLY putting his archmage out there (in between grubbies army and his base).

It's not that I want to be a mindless, ZOMG must attack all zee time player. I simply play too safe for most situations. I need to break my bad habbit of, when in doubt, don't scout, just creep and do your thing. It's a habbit that has lost me many many many games. I need to decide, what my thing is earlier, and that thing is, getting my prefered tier 2 stance and attacking. This mentality helps me for several reasons, I don't have to scout if i'm on the attack as much as I normally would. I also have the luxury of all the offensive control of the game.

However, the reason I like what proz said, is because it reminded me alot of something phreak said. "The one who has the advantage, is the one who forces his opponent to addapt to him". Very well put imo, and what better way to force someone, when you FE. Other than practicing macro and micro(which I can't do very well) I am trying to find a certain mentality in which to live by. When I say mentality, I am reffering to the thing that will be the basis of my playstyle.

In every other game, I am about killing first, and I consider survivability ussually around(hmm, he's fending me off). The reason it is so different, is because in WC3 I ated with a friend and ONLY massed chims. We simply hoped the other guys would not attack. That tore my game to shreds. In response, I wanted to change race because "night elf tier 1 blows, but human seems sorta interesting. I've seen a lot of players do some crazy shit". I still laugh at that reason, NE tier 1 blows, so let's switch to human lol.

I will list my strats in order of how I used them(almost every game)
BM,AM,PL (aoe)
to AM,BM,PL (aoe with mana)
to AM,BM (aoe with no lawlo reign and faster levels)
to solo pally(my mass armor knights strat which was super fun, no one ever died, EVER!)
to solo AM (mass casters)
to am/mk rifle caster.
to present.

From here, I am trying to develop my own sense of play style. My second hero will be what I feel like going. IE huVSud, I will go panda if he goes ghouls. I see no reason to do otherwise, otherwise my rifles are pwnt.
It's difficult to do however. I am having a lot of trouble getting this idea of what I should do out of my head. Versus what I want to do. What's helped the most is facing players that wtfpwn me(cole, and redrag). I can't think fast enough if I think about, "what should I do here". Instead I MUST think on my feet, or I WILL lose. My crowning moment of this is when I was fighting redrag's BM on a creep jack in the left merc camp of echo isles. Instead of running, I bought mercs to fight him off and went straight for his base after. The mercs more than made up for my foots not being present, and I was fairing pretty well. I still don't know how that game woulda ended(redrag left) he probably would have won, but I really enjoyed the thought of the possability.

The rush is what I play video games for, I like to run in there, do what I can and then run out. My "rush" comes from trying to litterally out play my opponent, in most cases micro, when the situation is dire. My play style will be tailored to what I enjoy, thusly I desire to set that situation up. How I would do that is my dilema. Don't get me wrong, I highly appreciate any and ALL feed back on my game. However, when working on my play style, it is more helpfull to me to hear how other people play. It gets me thinking, IE proz's obsession with AKM, if I had my replay folder up. I would watch that crap in a heart beat. So please, if you would all just say, what goes through your mind when you play? Why do you play wc3? and what is it that you feel when your A game is on the table. Of course, feedback is encouraged:)

[GroG]

If you just sit around and creep/expand, you are fine on bigger maps. But on small ones, what really defines the game is aggressiveness and creepjacking. Creepjacking not only exploits your opponents mistakes HEAVILY, being aggressive allows you to make more mistakes. Even if you don't get kills, it messes their timing up, it makes them realize they can't just do whatever they want, they have to deal with you. Your opponent can't just watch 12 reps of Grubby and expect to do the exact creeping pattern, the exact same unit production and timings as Grubby. You are changing the flow of the game using the creepjacking or pressure, he must adapt.

On the same note, if you aren't playing perfectly, but are doing good creepjacks and nice pressure, it allows those holes to not be as exposed whereas if you were just creeping and say, you missed a burrow and your supply is low or you aren't macroing perfectly, when you come home to fight you will be out-macroed plus your units will be damaged to creeps. But your opponent won't readily notice this when he's trying to fight for position vs. not only you, but also vs creeps. Or, he won't fully take in account in numbers if you are harassing his peons while he's FEing, he'll have to think whats more important, getting those creeps killed or saving some peons? Should I send my whole force home or just a few units to stop ghouls raping my peasants? etc etc.

What goes through my mind when I play? Several things, although it usually depends on who I'm playing and if I actually care about this game. If you watch my reps, you can usually tell my mentality when I'm playing. Usually when I play, I try shit out a lot. I mean, usually I don't play stupid, I still try to harass or creepjack, play with the same mentality. But I try to incorporate different heroes into the roles I usually fill with DK/Lich, BM/TC, etc. So in one game the KotG will be my BM, harassing acos or "jacking", and the PoTM will be my TC, creeping with my army and powerleveling. I also try to use unit combos that will benefit me in a battle, ie: shees vs. direct damage heroes for ams, kodos vs bears, stuff like that.

I like to watch pro reps, but only for the pro rep fun of it, to see perfect play. In SC, I try to pull off strats like in pro reps, but in WC3 I rarely do. The units have so many more abilities and so do heroes, it really allows you to be creative and do what you want with them. Throw in creeps, creepjacking, and items, and every game is so much more different than any pro game you can watch.

But, if it helps you out, I do know what strat I'm going to try when I spawn. It usually ends up different than what I want, but I at least know what build order and hero I'm going when I send my peons to gold. Then, as the game progresses, I usually make different stuff than I intended.

Hope that helps.

[h0bgawblin]

Helps a lot, as a matter of fact, it's exactly what i'm looking for. A perfect example of a play style that is tempered to the individuals needs. I am starting to do the same on the load menu. What do I want to do, and how am I going to make it work. It's much better than deciding in game on a whim. It's how axslav does it, and frankly, I like that idea for increasing my play style and skill awareness.