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Prozerran
02-18-2007, 5:48 PM
I believe this deserves an article, just because I've been a fan of this player for a while now and this has been discussed to some length in the Town Hall. AKM (aka Angry_Korea_Man) is what I like to think of as a controversial player. Some say, "Unless you're AKM, don't try this strategy because you'll lose." It's true. Unless you understand the intricacies of the strategy, don't use it. I've taken some time to study some of his replays, and with some common sense, I want to give you a thorough understanding of the strategy and its use in each match-up.

The Build Order

Alter (Queue to Tower)
Farm (Queue to 2nd Farm, then Tower)
Lumber Mill
Upgrade towers to Guard
Begin Masonry Upgrade
Clear Expo and begin towers there (4-5)
Add 3rd farm and Vault as resources allow

You'll produce peasants to about 28-30 control.

Bloodmage Skill Point Assignment and Usage

This will vary somewhat depending on the match-up and the strategy of the opponent, but for the most part you'll go with:

Flamestrike, Siphon Mana, Flamestrike, Siphon Mana, Flamestrike, Phoenix, Siphon, Banish, Banish, Banish

The Bloodmage is very effective at level 2. At this point, he can Siphon enemy mana to feed more Flamestrikes. He is slow, so he needs boots, and his Flamestrike does carry a one second delay before going off. So, it's important to know when to cast Flamestrike. You should always be siphoning mana in a battle, if nothing else to prevent your opponent from casting dangerous spells against your weaker units. In almost all cases, you want FS and Siphon to be your primary skills.

That being said, he is a great solo hero, and at Tiers 2 & 3, he receives an experience bonus for being the only hero. This will come in extremely handy later in the game when you're at level 5 and you kill a couple of units for level 6. His ultimate is the best summon, hands-down, in the game. When the phoenix comes out, most players quit. In some situations, however, it is better to put that 6th point into Siphon to deny opponents of important spells. This is the case in the UD match-up, and the NE can also be considered if your opponent solo's a Warden or DH.

You want your Bloodmage working at all times. Granted, there are times you have to concern yourself with production buildings, macro, farms, and towers, but you do not want your Bloodmage cowering in your base through the whole game. He's not as vulnerable as you think, and lvl 2 Flamestrike is absolutely deadly to workers. A level 3 BM should always be harassing enemy workers to disrupt your opponent's economy. Don't make it harder than it is. Be stubborn and persistent and you'll win a majority of your games.

The Strategy in Three Parts

Step 1. Tech or Expand, get to Level 2. Use between 6-8 militia and your BM to clear your natural expansion for a quick level 2 - do this as soon as the BM comes out, DON'T WAIT! Try to micro red peasants out and back in to the fight if possible, but don't get upset if you lose some. Not all of them may survive, so keep production up back at base. Once cleared, start towering (between 4-5 towers) the mine before starting the Hall. Back at base, set up about 2 more guard towers. If you don't expand (I.E. if you're on TR spawned next to your opponent), tech when your BM is at least to level 3 and you have enough peasants (again, this is approximately 30 control).

Step 2. Tech straight to Tier 3. Don't pass go. Don't collect $200.00. Go straight to Tier 3 adding buildings as you go. To keep your opponent slightly distracted, keep leveling your BM until level 3, so you can use lvl 2 FS on goldmining Peasants, Peons, Aco's, and Lumber Harvesting Wisps. Use Invis potions from the goblin lab along with Boots of Speed, an invuln potion, and a Tele Staff for easier entry and exit from the base. Empty your mana pool with FS. The more damage you do at this stage while your opponent is upgrading, the easier your game will become.

Step 3. Counter. Yes, this is a counter game, and as such, you'll find yourself playing catch-up for about 1-2 minutes. This doesn't mean you're losing. Your opponent has about 10-20 towers to work through to take down 2-3 bases, and this buys you a good deal of time. Let's look at the match-ups.

VS Mirror

Let's start here. Your opponent probably went with a standard AM, WE, Foots build. He will undoubtedly harass you at your base, and your towers will hold them back. Don't get anxious to militia all your peasants... yet. Send a few out at first to attack the AM. When they're in the yellow, start running them back into base. If your opponent is stupid (most of them are), they'll follow you in. Call to Arms and get some surrounds. You'll force an immediate TP and take minimal losses. 24-25 Militia will keep you alive and relatively unscathed. If your opponent doesn't take the bait at first, militia a fresh set of 8-9 Peasants and send the injured ones back to harvest.

At Tiers 2 & 3, you'll want to put up a Barracks, 2 Sanctums, and a Workshop. Use the BM to harass while you pump out Priests, Mortars, and Knights. If your opponent goes Mass Air, you'll want Barrage Tanks and FM's, so put up another Workshop. If your opponent managed to expand, use Mortars (Invisible Mortars if necessary) to take down the expo before you push your opponent. If this doesn't win you the game and you're forced out, creep the map to gain items from high level creeps and level 5.

VS Orc

Your opponent has two very obnoxious tactics here, Gruntapult & Fast Wyvs, and you will want to tech faster than your opponent in order to have units before you are thoroughly thrashed. This is wrong, and you will lose. The key to this match-up is the expo. If possible, always expo against Orc. When they come to gruntapult, this is their "one chance" to end the game. If you properly position towers beforehand, you won't lose to Gruntapult. Mortars > Catas in range, so if you have a Workshop up, Mortars are a great solution.

Once your expo is up, begin your tech. Start a Blacksmith, then two Barracks. While these are building, you need to take your BM and scout. Of course, try to take down burrows with Flamestrike if your opponent is off creeping or preparing to push you, and prepare yourself for anything (most likely Wyvs). This point of the game is crucial, since your Orc opponent is going to try and end the game before you reach Tier 3. Don't panic. This is why we're making Rifles, because the effect of the first few wyvs that come along will set the pace for the rest of this match-up. When Tier 2 hits, you'll throw down two Sanctums and a Workshop. You want Priests to heal Rifles and FM's to chase down Wyvs trying to use trees as cover.

If your opponent opts for Grunt/Raider, Rifle/Caster creates an interesting macro scenario. You see, Raiders + Speed Scroll = Dead Casters, which makes Grunts + Raiders = Dead Rifles. Priest Dispel is your friend, however, this negates slow as well and wastes mana. So, to get around this, your rule of thumb vs Grunt/Raider is: DON'T ENGAGE until your BM has level 4 for level 1 Banish. Why? Raider Ensnare. Raiders ensnare casters, surround them, and kill them. To counter, you'll focus Rifles on Raiders, let priests get ensnared and surrounded, then Banish them essentially giving you free pop-shots on Raiders.

More to come...

VS UD

This brings us to the origins of AKM's strategy. Long ago on www.warcraftstrategy.com, someone you've probably never heard of posted an article, "Bloodmage in Hu vs UD", or some equivalent. The article highlighted AKM's use of a zepplin on LT, using Flamestrike to make a clearing behind the enemy goldmine to get a group of peasants building guard towers behind that goldmine. This no longer works as well, because the zepplin is no longer available so soon. Regardless, this is where AKM's strategy was first made known to me, and as far as I know, to War3 players in general as a collective group. This is also where a lot of players stereotyped this strategy as unworkable, and they were right at the time. Seeing this strategy evolve, however, has given me some insight into the potential for solving the menace of some of the match-ups human players face. UD is one of those match-ups that Human players tend to dread facing, so keep this in mind when playing UD.

UD will tech straight to Tier 3 using a small group of Ghouls, Fiends, or both to harass you while you're expanding. Militia generally holds off Ghouls, so concentrate your Flamestrike on Fiends focusing your Towers on the DK. In between Flamestrikes, be sure you're constantly siphoning mana from the DK. A few siphons will render the DK useless, he won't be able to coil his Fiends, and you can earn yourself some kills and a possible level 3 for level 2 Flamestrike. Immediately go to a shop, get an invis potion, invuln potion, and a Telestaff. Flamestrike aco's relentlessly, chase them down, and kill them.

During your Tech to T2, throw up a Blacksmith and 2 Rax for Rifles. When you hit T2, add a couple of Sanctums for Priests and Workshops for FM's. UD will have two options for you to consider. Fast Destros -> Aboms or Mass Fiends - > Aboms. This means a macro chain of Rifle/Priest -> Knight/Priest/Mortar when you see Aboms. FM's become essential here, as you don't want to see Destro's once you have Master Priests that can cast Inner Fire. AKM never lets Destro's get away. Chase them down, kill 'em all. Don't let UD combine Destro's and Aboms or you'll get hosed. Disease cloud will kill your Knights while Destro's go to work on your Mortars and Priests. Tip the scales by taking out Destros, and you'll be in the clear if you plan on splashing sorcs and sticking with Rifle/Caster.

VS NE

From reviewing the replays, I find that Mortar/Caster is almost taylor made for the NE match-up. Towers, Casters, and Mortars are all great against NE, and Tanks with Barrage coupled with Flying Machines seal the deal against Chims. Virtually every unit from the Workshop is applicable, so you should be set with dual Sanctuaries and Dual Workshops. Caster/Mortar is sufficient vs Bear/Dryad. Breakers tend to lose to Bears nowadays since NE players empty Bear mana before attacking casting Roar and Rejuv. Your strategy against NE is to use invisi-mortar to take down expo's and avoid the NE army until they charge your base. At that point, focus towers, casters, and flamestrike on Bears while focusing Mortars on Dryads. When you hit level 5, push your opponent for level 6 and end the game with the Phoenix. NE has no answer to Phoenix, and without expo's and economy, the game should end then and there.

Another option for this match-up is mass Hawks. Get a Rax up during tech, then 3 Aviaries at T2. At T3, be sure to upgrade Animal War-Training for additional HP on the Hawks. This is a tactic that involves a bit of secrecy, so try to prevent your opponent from seeing your Hawks until you go in for the kill. By the time you begin your attack, your opponent won't have enough time to produce enough hippo's to counter. Dryads don't stand up to Mass Hawks, and since you can count on Bear/Dryad in most games, if you see it during your harass, this can be a viable option for you.

EDIT: A Word on Building/Tower Placement

It is important to cover as much space as possible in your area, while taking care not to build 999,999 towers side by side like a noob. In the Orc replay vs Midlake on TS, you will notice that AKM's tower positioning single-handedly stopped the towering/gruntapult tactic in its tracks. I've found a better method to maximize the effect. Begin by tucking 3-4 towers near your Hall behind farms. After your tech to T2 is underway, place a tower in the center of your spawn area, and build 2 towers to support it. If you're so inclined, you probably should repeat this process again on your newly built towers to support them. From there, scatter farms in close proximity (not bulked together, but within the range of towers leaving about 1-2 clicks of space between each) focusing primarily on choke points of your base (4 Farms per choke should be plenty). This upsets pathing, giving your base more coverage and room to battle harass. Your opponent will find it extremely difficult to reach your units without sacrificing a large portion of his army while navigating a labyrinth of farms in the process. This means more volleys from Mortars, additional time to Flamestrike, and more efficiency out of your towers. When I get a chance, I'll see if I can upload a screenshot for demonstration.

Here are some AKM replays:

GenocideAlive
02-19-2007, 11:47 AM
AKM's play can be really good esp if you can avoid detection for the second minute or so. But I really have to wonder how effective it is when your opponent can predict what you plan to do. If he in turn proceeds to expand like a crazy person at 2 points, AKM breaks down. He can harass the main, or try to prevent an expansion from going up, but he can't do all three. And if they get one going, he's pretty much boned. But honestly, I've seen him do some incredible harass.

And by the way, Ghouls counter Steam Tanks pretty effectively. I'm not sure why you'd want to skip Flying Machines (which Ghouls can't hit) for Tanks, which Ghouls can surround.

You also claim that Steam Tanks' barrage beats Chims. Uh, no? If he gets 2-3 Chims and FF's tanks, the Chims will probably beat the Tanks pretty handily. They can outmanuever the Tanks to use trees as cover.

Barrage does pretty piss poor damage to low numbers of targets. It's pretty heavily reliant on splash damage to kill things--things like masses of Faerie Dragons would get unbelieveably hosed by Barrage, whereas a couple of Chims could pretty much blast all day without much problem.

So, your advice is pretty much blatantly backwards. Get Flying Machines for Chims, whose slow speed and inability to hit air make them sitting ducks for the fast, manueverable flying machines, and get Tanks for Faerie Dragons, Hippogryphs, and Talons.

I'm a little dubious all around on that section, I don't really see how your suggested strategy beats mass Bears. Flamestrike and mortars will do damage, sure--but where is your front lines? Casters won't hold the lines against Bear/Dryad and neither will a couple Breakers if they Roar them out of mana. Using up all that food on Tanks will deprive you, especially since Bears do just fine against them.

GroG
02-19-2007, 5:04 PM
Wouldn't you rather want Dragonhawks vs. Chims then Gyros? Or is it because you are only producing out of workshops..?

I always was under the impression barrage was good vs gargs, hipps, etc, ie: small air.

Also, on the NE thing GA, you probably don't have to "beat" the NE, just defend with towers/units and run around stopping expos with invis BM and tanks (multitasking).

Proz, I think you are going to lose a lot vs. UD and Orcs if you try that on ladder. I am assuming the reps are of AKM doing the strat? How have others faired doing it themselves? If I was playing as orc, I would just do Ratty's style FS/TC grunt/raider and expo/creep deny you hard, and then later expand and add wyvs vs gryphs. With UD, I would probably just go DK/Lich->creep->destro/wyrm. I would also think about getting DL 3rd and just park him in my base and whenever BM came to FS I'd just sleep him (if I was fast enough ;x). Anything with fiend will probably lose to this build unless you are really good with burrow, and I highly doubt anyone here is good.

overall nice, like to see some user reps as opposed to AKM reps tho

Prozerran
02-19-2007, 10:52 PM
GA: You're right, Flying Machines are a better counter to Chims, however, Hippo's often accompany them along with Dryads and Archers that make mincemeat of FM's, so Tanks are almost always necessary regardless. See the attached replays. AKM expands. DH harasses. The NE player expands. Still, once AKM reaches 6-8 Mortars and Casters, he takes down expo after expo. He doesn't suffer as much as you seem to think you will from a DH harass on his peasants, and it gets the job done.

Grog: I think AKM's replays will suffice to prove the point. I'm sure he's lost, no strategy is unbeatable. I also think that this is an extremely viable strategy if people understand how it works. If you think it's as simple as solo bloodmage, tech, and win, you'll lose with it over and over again.

I know RR posted an AKM wannabe in the replays thread, and I'll get you a replay of someone else using the strategy. However, I don't think it really proves much to say this strategy loses to [enter some strategy you use when you see this strategy here] every time when AKM clearly demonstrates this not to be the case. Once you have time to review the replays and see it for yourself, maybe you'll have more insight to offer.

GenocideAlive
02-20-2007, 10:51 AM
I'm not sure I'd call that ace-of-spades guy "good". His rep was a bit disappointing. I will also add that I was underwhelmed by AKM's entire playstyle. He just masses towers--BM doesn't seem uniquely fit to harm anyone. I think Tinker would be a better choice. Or Panda. BM doesn't fit any strategy particularly well from what I can see, it's just what AKM uses.

GroG
02-20-2007, 2:43 PM
Oh also, use meat wagons to beat tanks, not ghouls ;p

GenocideAlive
02-20-2007, 2:54 PM
Meat Wagons get WTFPWNED too fast to be attractive to me. They move slowly, they fire slowly, and they don't actually do anything to stop the tanks. Then after you buy them to beat the Tanks, GJ, they're useless.

Ghouls, on the other hand, are cheap, interrupt their pathing, deal terrific damage, can surround, and are useful for things other than defending a base from Steam Tanks.

GroG
02-20-2007, 4:07 PM
they can surround tank if you use them properly. but getting 6 ghouls or so per tank which can easily be sent to different areas is not practical.

if you expand , just park a few meat wagons there plus a spirit/nerub tower, as opposed to needing 12 ghouls there to protect from tanks.

also, ghouls get owned much faster if they surround a tank that gets a L3 firestrike cast on it ;/

once you play vs a good multitasker its very very hard to use ghouls to beat tanks, and thats why ud complain about them being imba, cause meatwagons suck but they are the only decent viable answer

GenocideAlive
02-21-2007, 4:00 PM
Well, just as an FYI, don't get Spirit Towers vs. Tanks. They're a complete and total waste. I demolished I don't know how many UD players that built 20 Spirit Towers thinking it was going to kill off the Tanks. Piercing does miserable damage to Fortified armor, and it takes like 3 waves from all of their towers to put down a tank. In the meantime, I have like 6 Tanks taking out 1 tower per volley.

Otherwise, 3 Meat Wagons worth of food is a control group's worth of Ghouls. While you may not be able to surround all of the tanks that are attacking, you sure as hell can get some good blocks in while you finish them. I don't quite get your "Tanks that may attack elsewhere" comment, because 350 speed Frenzy Ghouls are about, oh, 90 times more mobile than your Meat Wagons. They also don't get used like cheap hookers when facing ranged support.

Prozerran
02-21-2007, 4:56 PM
Grog, don't you go Fiends against Human? GA, don't you go ghouls against Hu? See, it makes more sense to me that if you're massing Fiends, you wouldn't want to weaken your macro switching to Ghouls. It doesn't seem practical for a Fiends builder to go to ghouls when Wagons might easily splash in and counter the tanks. Similarly, it doesn't make sense for someone to add wagons and disrupt production of stats when they have an abundance of ghouls at their disposal to disrupt Tank pathing, etc...

RedRagToAnOrc
02-22-2007, 7:27 AM
Three things. Firstly, after having finally had the time to read the entire article, it's very well written, and as GA said, it's nice to have an AKM afficionado on the boards.

Secondy, I've noticed that in a lot of AKM's games, he tends to put his towers out in seemingly random places where they can be easily focused down, instead of nestled behind a Farm, as I tend to do when I'm playing Human. Is there a reason for this?

Thirdly, I decided to try it out on solo ladder (don't worry Yoda, the "serious" account is still going - and I have an icon!) and got a smurfer in my first game. He wasn't fantastic, but is the 30-supply Peasants with lots of Militia/Militia creeping in this replay what usually goes on in an AKM game, or is there something I'd need to improve on?

Call to Arms and get some surrounds. You'll force an immediate TP and take minimal losses.

Couple of pretty funny surrounds, as well - I thought your "you will force a TP" attitude was a little optimistic, but I was obviously wrong. Either that, or my opponent sucked. :)

Prozerran
02-22-2007, 1:43 PM
Three things. Firstly, after having finally had the time to read the entire article, it's very well written, and as GA said, it's nice to have an AKM afficionado on the boards.

Hey, thanks! You know, I like the strategy, I think I've spent enough time looking at his replays, and it's just a nice break from the typical "AM, WE's, Foots" game that you see again and again... and again... and again... ugh... and again. Oh, AM Foots again? Yay... so, I'd like to thank the Academy. "You love me! You really love me!" - Sally Fields when she accepted an Academy Award back in the '80s.

Secondy, I've noticed that in a lot of AKM's games, he tends to put his towers out in seemingly random places where they can be easily focused down, instead of nestled behind a Farm, as I tend to do when I'm playing Human. Is there a reason for this?

There's a great reason for this. When you tuck towers in close to your base, your opponent has more room to work inside your base and pin you down. Flamestrike becomes a risk to your buildings when the opponent moves in and out, hitting and running. By building towers out from your base, you cover more area and give yourself room to militia, flamestrike, or whatever, and with even level 1 masonry upgrades you'll have enough time to get a kill out of a group of towers while one is being focused. Mortar Teams do a lot more damage as well, since they get more time for volleys. In the Orc replay on TS in the original article (vs Midlake), you'll notice the area AKM covers with his towers stops the Gruntapult in its tracks.

Thirdly, I decided to try it out on solo ladder (don't worry Yoda, the "serious" account is still going - and I have an icon!) and got a smurfer in my first game. He wasn't fantastic, but is the 30-supply Peasants with lots of Militia/Militia creeping in this replay what usually goes on in an AKM game, or is there something I'd need to improve on?

I don't know why you didn't immediately go for the expo. You creeped the green creeps for the level 2 (level 2 is important), but you could have creeped those anytime. Also, 5 militia for those green turtle creeps? Not necessary. I would have taken my BM over to the spawn to see if your opponent was beside you. If so, take your BM and militia to the Goblin Shop and creep to level 2. Expect a harass on your base, make the DH leave to go heal up, and creep the yellow camp. If you're not side by side, clear the expo FIRST for level 2. Don't waste your time early on with green creeps unless you're almost to another level. It's just not worth it if you get jacked and lose peasants while creeping a green camp.

Couple of pretty funny surrounds, as well - I thought your "you will force a TP" attitude was a little optimistic, but I was obviously wrong. Either that, or my opponent sucked. :)

Nah, I think the surround that actually killed the DH was a big fuck-up on your opponent's part, he probably wasn't paying any attention to his DH and was working in his base. Next thing he knows, his DH is surrounded and killed. The first surround forcing the TP, that's exactly what happens again and again with AKM vs NE. It's not so easy against a Blademaster vs Orc because of WW, which makes getting Siphon and an Arcane tower that much more crucial in the beginning, lest you lose a peasant every time you go to creep.

Very well played, RR. Since your opponent made all the wrong moves, I assume he didn't know how to react, but that happens a lot. He should have concentrated on expanding and levelling his DH. He DID do well preventing your expo with his Priestess (why PotM??, Panda is much better against this). NE players often try massing Chippo and treating it like FFA. Tanks and FM's counter, so it's still a toss up as to whether you should cookie-cut against AKM or not as NE.

GenocideAlive
02-22-2007, 4:44 PM
Well, Chippo is Bad vs. Orc, OK vs. HU, and game-winner vs. UD. Generally getting Chippo is a great idea if you can pin them down in their base and do the deed that way. But generally if HU gets two workshops, you've basically got to pull out your entire arsenal to find a counter. Bear-Chim-archer-Hippo is just about the only clean counter to it. That, and the freaking all-purpose Panda.

GroG
02-22-2007, 5:41 PM
I personally think Chippo is good vs orc's that race to tier 3, it's almost the only way to beat their fortified burrows and crap. It's also good vs HH/SW based orc, but is also hero dependant, of course, you don't see that too often so whatever.

Prozerran
02-27-2007, 3:52 AM
Updated: 2-27-07.

GenocideAlive
03-01-2007, 2:02 PM
I just think Chippo is a bad idea against Orcs because of large vulnerability of Chims to splash. Bats are extremely inefficient against (especially upgraded) Chims, and the more targets you give them, the more efficiency they gain. They can suicide 4 Bats per Chim and kill them, but then they just spent 640G 240W on killing a 330G 80W unit. That's if you can't staff out your Chim between Bats 2-4, at which point they just completely wasted that gold.

But if you've got a Hippo escort, when he starts smashing Hippos with his Bats, he's going to kill the Hippos AND the Chims fairly quickly. If you just get mass Chim / Hunt / Archer / Talon, you should be much better off. That centralizes your production from tiers 1-3 and gives you a finisher.

He's going to be backpedaling from the start vs. Hunts, then you mix in archers at tier 2 with a quickie burrow push and some Talons on your way to tier 3. At tier 3 you throw down your Roosts and get Cyclone. I don't know how it'd all exactly fit together yet. But maps like that one where every spawn is on an island hill, NE has a pretty unassailable position. HU is probably a close second, but they can't move buildings to let units in and then to keep units out. I got an L9 Panda on that map vs. UD once. He crept most of the map, including a Doom Guard and a scroll of Ressurrection and still lost. He couldn't push my base without the dreaded Haze+BoF combo tearing his shit apart.

Prozerran
03-01-2007, 8:19 PM
SO, since this thread is dedicated to AKM, I figure I'll keep posting his replays as I find them. Here are some pretty decent games, mostly NE and Mirror. Enjoy!

Argolman On Tirisfal Glades - AKM masses Hawks against Bears/Dryads.

Fturnip On Turtle Rock - Hu vs Hu... Turnip just gets outplayed.

Revangeliz & World Both decent Hu vs NE games. Classic AKM.

Prozerran
03-04-2007, 1:38 PM
More replays folks.

Bigmike (UD) Echo Isles. Classic AKM vs UD. Interesting match.

Instinc (OR) Gnoll Wood. Close game. Mass Wyvs... Bats... lots of death and destruction.

SK.Ninjastyle (HU) Gnoll Wood. AKM uses a slightly different build to add foots. Eventually ends up with Knight/Priest/Mortar against Mortar/Caster.

Nothingbutsolo (NE) Terenas Stand. Not so close game. Bloodmage/Pitlord/Panda mass AoE harass.

Nedech
03-04-2007, 6:46 PM
Those are some great replays Prozerran, i've almost watched them all.
You don't happend to have one that shows his mirror strategy on LT? He goes dual rax footmens with defend and pushs the fastexpand. I've seen him beting Fire_de, Xyligan and Sunshine with it (Back when sunshine played as human).

I tried to use the AKM tactic in one of my own games. Give me some feedback. It's a fun tactic.

I'll make sure to learn the BO and design my basebuild a bit better next time.

Prozerran
03-05-2007, 12:03 AM
Nedech:

Excellent use of the Bloodmage. As you probably figured out toward the end of the game, you needed that early expo to make a strong finish. Also, Mortar Teams have a longer range than Meatwagons. Instead of keeping them in the back of your base, you should use them to counter the meatwagons and fend off the push. Your opponent would have come in with Destros and his heroes, but you would have the advantage with towers.

Don't sweat the small stuff. Get that expo early and don't worry about getting to T2 so fast. Also, when you send your Bloodmage to harass, always try to path him so he scouts your opponent's expo positions. On TS, for instance, take him south, then east on the first harass. On the next, take him to the northeast corner. All the while, you're getting a strong sense of what your opponent is doing while utterly raping him with Flamestrike.

Great job!

GenocideAlive
03-05-2007, 11:54 AM
Why use the BM to scout when you can build one FM and find out while making an earlier (and thus more effective) harass?

Prozerran
03-05-2007, 2:08 PM
At the point when you're teching to T2, you don't have FM's, so if you run by a building expo, you can make an even more effective harass by stopping it. It depends, I suppose, on what you classify as an effective harass. Nedech did nothing wrong, but there's nothing wrong with covering those expo spots en route. In the end, by not doing it you only save yourself 3-4 seconds, which really doesn't help you that much.

GroG
03-05-2007, 3:35 PM
I don't think I could ever do this strat or anything similar, I pretty much refuse to use staff of teleportation.

Nedech
03-06-2007, 5:12 AM
Prozerran, i tried fast expanding on terenas strand a few hours ago. I lost to many damn peasants due to the strong creeps, and the DK was there to harras me aswell.


How should i go around this? Should i wait until my BM is lvl 3? That way i can take down the creeps much easier. Or, fast expand some of the other mines, even though they're far away? Going for a later expand?

Prozerran
03-06-2007, 12:45 PM
When the DK shows up, take about 3-4 peasants away from creeping and target the DK. Back at base, you should have 3-4 peasants available there, and you should be producing them in your hall rallying them to wood. Militia your wood peasants and bring them over. If the DK hasn't left, send them to attack him (even if you're not done with the creep). You can always go back with more peasants once the DK leaves to go heal and get the expo up. If none of what I'm saying makes any sense, post your replay and I'll look at it.

If you learn to take the risks early and adapt to your opponent, you'll reap the rewards throughout the game. The longer you wait, the more your opponent will be able to do to prevent you from expanding.

h0bgawblin
03-11-2007, 11:00 PM
I really want to watch these, I can't wait till I get my laptop tomorrow. Good job proz, it's really a good variation.

Prozerran
03-22-2007, 1:38 AM
3-22-07: Updated Orc, UD, and NE match-ups. Please advise on these if you have time. If I haven't explained something well enough, or perhaps it's too redundant, please post. I want this to be thorough while also concise. Thanks all!

-Proz

GenocideAlive
03-28-2007, 10:12 PM
I've been playing the BM, but I don't use Siphon as a second skill. I consider it a waste of mana and completely shitty when dealing with late-game dual hero. Banish, on the other hand, amps up the damage from Flamestrike as well as the Phoenix and gives you a finisher with Gryphs. Makes creeping slightly slower and I definitely spend more money on clarities, but it pays off as can be seen in the reps.

I also dislike the tier 1 expo, because you are far too easily cut apart by a decent harass. 3-4 Grunts / Hunts and a vigilant hero will wreck your stuff a couple of times, and by the time you zerg down their stuff to make them leave, you're still stuck with nothing to defend yourself besides towers. They nab a second hero, expand, start harassing your base, etc. They can keep you stalled indefinitely while doubling your levels.

And I can't stress the importance of a Shredder, that fucking thing is imba.

Prozerran
03-29-2007, 9:07 AM
I've been playing the BM, but I don't use Siphon as a second skill. I consider it a waste of mana and completely shitty when dealing with late-game dual hero. Banish, on the other hand, amps up the damage from Flamestrike as well as the Phoenix and gives you a finisher with Gryphs. Makes creeping slightly slower and I definitely spend more money on clarities, but it pays off as can be seen in the reps.

All I can say is this: Siphon Mana isn't a waste of mana because it doesn't cost you mana. It absorbs mana from other heroes and feeds it to your BM, or it channels mana into another of your units (if you went, say, MK first). I can see the rationale for Banish when talking about Gryphs, but I hardly ever bother with Gryphs. By the time you have Gryphs your opponent will have a way to counter them fairly easily. I'd rather beef my numbers up earlier with Hawks if I'm massing air. Rifle/caster also works if you start a couple of Rax during your tech to T2. Essentially, I'd splash Banish in around level 4 if I were going to use it - it does very little for you when your BM is at lvl 2 and you're harassing with FS. Ironically, Banish is just a waste of mana at that point, not Siphon.

With Siphon at lvl 2, your BM becomes three things: AoE Harasser, an AM w/ Brilliance (on himself), and a DH (without the burn). You can FS your opponent's workers and REMAIN there when his hero comes back to stop you, feeding your BM more mana for potentially 4 Flamestrikes. That's not just good, that's great - and it doesn't cost you additional mana like Banish does, but instead drains your opponent's mana pool.

You make an interesting case for Banish, but I just have to say the case for Siphon is just all around better.

I also dislike the tier 1 expo, because you are far too easily cut apart by a decent harass. 3-4 Grunts / Hunts and a vigilant hero will wreck your stuff a couple of times, and by the time you zerg down their stuff to make them leave, you're still stuck with nothing to defend yourself besides towers. They nab a second hero, expand, start harassing your base, etc. They can keep you stalled indefinitely while doubling your levels.

And I can't stress the importance of a Shredder, that fucking thing is imba.

I agree with the Shredder. If you watch the replays, you'll see that towers go up before the expo. Back at base, you're making up in the range of 20-25 peasants. Really, if your first attempt at "securing" the expo fails due to harassment, you can just go back again once you force your opponent to retreat. Sure, they may keep you in Tier 1 for a bit longer than you'd like, but there's little to nothing your opponent can do at Tiers 1 & 2 that can end the game if you are resourceful and use your militia.

And they can't keep your shit stalled indefinitely if you have Siphon to empty your opponent's mana pool.

GenocideAlive
03-29-2007, 11:06 PM
Siphon mana at L1 is near useless. Sure, you can steal mana from their weak heroes, but the problem is that even if you get the full effect, you get something like a shitty 80 mana. Whoop-dee-doo. At L4, you can Siphon much more effectively--but then you'll have 600 mana and 10HP after standing there while their army beats on your face, and will have to TP out anyway. You'll get your shit ruined by their hero and units while you're channeling Siphon, and you'd be lucky to get away alive, much less with an extra Flamestrike.

With Banish, however, you get Synergy from Gryphs and from the Phoenix. As you can see from the second game I posted, without Banish I would have lost, and Siphon + Flamestrike would have been worse than useless. The DR would have Drain Life'd my BM while he Siphon'd and he would have dropped dead.

If you can manage your mana with clarities, there's no need for Siphon. You can't control their hero mana pool like Mana Burn because it takes too long to Siphon away the mana and by the time you get it you don't have enough HP to use it. The AKM is good for hit-and-run guerilla tactics--you don't really have the ability to stand around for 6s waiting for an opportunity to cast a spell. Transferring the mana is worthless unless you nab a second hero at tier 2, which I am not a fan of doing.

Prozerran
03-30-2007, 8:06 PM
To each their own, my friend. I'll give it another go and play it for myself. I haven't reviewed your replays either, so I'll take a look and get back to you. If it's really as good as you say it is, I'll use it.

EDIT:

Check out this Orc replay of AKM harassing the piss out of this guy. It's a decent game, with Orc getting an early expo AKM actually doesn't find until halfway through the game and the destruction of many burrows. On Terenas Stand.

EDIT Number 2:

I watched the three replays, and the only thing that really impressed me was how you managed to macromanage your way out of a loss. Really, man, against NE your shit gets countered by Dryads. Your better bet, if you want to go mass air, is Mass Hawks, which is pretty effective anyway against NE. Your UD replay was nice, especially when you banish/FFed his heroes into oblivion. It was sick. At the same time though, my point was made. Banish from levels 2-5 wasn't even worth it. You can pull off the same strategy splashing the spell in at level 4 or 5 if you want, but I'd stick with Siphon for endless flamestrikes in skirmishes. I only say all of this if you were indeed serious about this strategy... if you're just fucking around then I guess I don't have much to say.

Oh, and this exchange was pretty funny...

"MiC12O: Mass Gryphs vs Fiends?
GA: Easy win for you, eh?"

Skirmish ensues, battle slightly favors GA

"GA: That did not go well for you"
No reply from MiC12O

GA Banish/FF's all 3 UD Heroes to end the game

"MiC12O: Do you really like doing this gay ass shit?
GA: Guess not such an easy win for you afterall."

I lol'd.