Question about APM

[Lancer]

how many apm is consider as standard and how many apm is pro class?

what is everyone's average apm here?

[h0bgawblin]

Pro apm ussually goes to about 200, i've seen 475. However, there are pros who have an apm of 65, such as axeslav. APM is not neccesarily a good thing to have a lot of. It is to be highly personalized and not compared to. The idea behind apm, is to have you phsycologically prepared to do the actions that YOU ussually do in the game, and not be over whelmed. I will say it again, this is for YOUR play style.

IE I need about 100 apm to do what I want to do through out the game, any more and I forget little things or screw up. Also, APM saps your thought (macro), which is as important as micro. There are times when I find myself needing a huge chill pill to think of a come back strat. Something i've learned here is that, strictly following pro plays means that if the cookie cutter goes wrong, you don't know what to do. Come backs are ussually done in 3 ways, recource advantage, hero pwnage, or unit selection advantage. Currently, my weakest is hero pwnage, but if you notice, so many undead players make big ass come backs for this reason. It is however, the easiest way to make a comback, and this takes a lot of focus.

Find out what apm is to your preference, and start being innovative in different situations. It's not because cookie cutters are lame, I use them all the damn time. However, innovation saves you more than micro will. WC3 does not need a huge amount of micro, you can get by with 100 to start. Also, never focus on random clicks in your game, EVER! I've caught myself thinking, I should click faster, and have payed the price for it.

Work on macro enough so that you have scouting, expoing, counter expoing, creeping, and even shopping down to a science. When thats done, you can learn to increase your micro from 100/150 apm, to any thing logical. That's what I've been doing, and i've improved wonders.

[RedRagToAnOrc]

how many apm is consider as standard and how many apm is pro class?

what is everyone's average apm here?

Largely what H0bgawblin said. There is no APM beyond which you could become "pro". I could spam click all my peons, never build anything, get 400 APM but lose in 3 minutes. Does that make me a "pro"? ;)

Generally, professional players can be seen on average to have an APM of about 250, plus or minus 50. I think the highest APM I've ever seen at any one moment was clipping the 500 barrier (I played someone on BNet who obviously spammed to the max in the first 2 minutes).

Also, generally, RT players have lower APM than solo players, and the same goes for arranged team players - in my experience, the more players on your team, the lower your APM will usually be. This is nothing to do with my perception of RT being n00bsport, I can't explain it, but almost every single person's APM that I've seen goes down when they have more people on their team.

Finally, I see so many people at WCR talk about how "Grubby's APM was below 200" [therefore he wasn't playing well]. It really infuriates me when I see that, because if there was a program that could record UAPM (Useful Actions per Minute) perhaps a lot more people would see sense.

As for my APM, I usually average somewhere between 150 and 200, and I peak at about 250, although I think I've broken the 300 mark in a couple of fights. But I'm most certainly not a professional. :)

Something i've learned here is that, strictly following pro plays means that if the cookie cutter goes wrong, you don't know what to do.

Completely off topic - I win at hiding text!

My brother, who hasn't played Warcraft since shortly after TFT came out, pointed that out to me at the weekend. I was trying to explain to him that the cookie cutter strategy is usually the easiest and best way to do something, because it's tried and tested, and it works. However, he mentioned that I seemed to have difficulty when something happened which I didn't expect, and that perhaps if you simply did the exact opposite of whatever your opponent expected, you'd have a little more success.

Therefore, I had fun over the weekend doing dual Barracks rushes with Human and the like. The theory behind it can be demonstrated pretty well in an Orc mirror where I did a Two Grunt Tech, waited until my opponent scouted me, then switched to Headhunters. He didn't get a Panda or similar AoE hero to counter, and I pushed him with a unit combination that completely dominated his.

A little something I'm working on. :)

[h0bgawblin]

Very true, cookie cutters work very well. However, cookie cutters have developed over time. You need to understand the easy counters to certain switches, which most people just don't know. Redrag's example is perfect, In addition, I have been trying mass air against ne. It works amazingly well, and it shouldn't. Most players who watch replays and simply copy strats without understanding the game. These players don't relize, that if they scouted me, mass hippos would have lawled my pants off. At that time, unless I had some tanks, I would be toast. Some players I see, mass archers in response, and I just laugh. Thier mass archers are dominated by my breakers or defended foots, and because they went DH/naga they cant do a damn thing against my foots. Cookie cutters are the safest way to beat an opponent, but by no means the "best" for the situation.

It really is a risk reward factor. I went all in, in a game of black jack, got black jack. Some other guy I was playing with was following an M.I.T. guide to black jack. Guess who made more money? Me, because I made the risk and it payed off. Sometimes, your not even basing a risk on the player's skill level. There are plenty of replays where pros are suprised by something totally different. In short, I find the best way to beat my opponent, is using my knowledge + my preference of play style against an opponent. That's why my UD match up is my strongest, and i'm a human player. (my ne match up is my worst:()

[PaganTheology]

apm doesnt matter but you need at least 100 apm to do the right actions. in warcraft 3 it doesnt matter. as long as you make the right decisions with your apm it doesnt matter at all.

[GenocideAlive]

I'm at maybe 100? 125 if things get a little crazy?

But I don't spam click (ever) and I don't believe in beating the shit out of a mouse or keyboard to get a unit somewhere. If I didn't click the right spot the first time, it's not worth clicking again. But you must realize, I want to play like AxSlav, where strategy is paramount. I don't want to play like Moon, where I can run / staff my DH away with 2HP. I'm sure it's a real advantage to be able to abuse heroes to their utmost, but I find it boring.

[h0bgawblin]

I spam click mainly because i'm used to it, however, as i've been getting more comfortable with my gameplay, its been going down. As far as clicking to "make sure" the unit is doing whats right. I have been practicing clicking unit pathing. It's a really harsh reality, but the units in wc3 are retarded when it comes to going from point A to point B.

[Prozerran]

Sometimes, your not even basing a risk on the player's skill level. There are plenty of replays where pros are suprised by something totally different. In short, I find the best way to beat my opponent, is using my knowledge + my preference of play style against an opponent. That's why my UD match up is my strongest, and i'm a human player. (my ne match up is my worst:()

Good pro-players know every intricacy of the game and have a much better sense of measuring risk and reward on a thin red line in a matter of a second or less. Just because pro's cookie-cut doesn't mean they don't know the game enough to adapt to something totally different. Often, these "off-the-wall" strategies implemented are designed to capitalize on the weakness(es) of the race the opponent is using.

Pro-players lose for one or all of three reasons: being outplayed (playing flawlessly, but losing to an opponent that plays equally so), simple mistakes that are capitalized upon, or by specific strategies designed to capitalize on the weaknesses of the race being used. NE's don't lose to Hu Mass Tanks because they don't know how to react. Mass Tanks pwn NE. If NE cannot win in the opening 10 minutes of the game, they're fighting an uphill battle from then on. If a pro-NE loses to pro-HU Mass Tanks, it's because he was beaten by a specific strategy designed to exploit the weakness of NE ranged attacks and was outplayed. NE could have played perfectly, but if the HU expo went up successfully, there's not much NE can do to stop Tanks from there except suicide army after army into towers and try to out-expo the HU at that point. It's not a total loss, but the strategy is the point. You don't see mass tanks against Orc or HU because those races aren't as weak to tanks.

Just wanted to make it all clear for everyone...

[h0bgawblin]

Hmm, good points proz, but I still think that suprise is an element even in pro level gaming. Not to say you were argueing otherwise. Anywho, I was not argueing that pros don't know what to do on the fly, however, mass tanks is also a risk. So basicly, just feeling the need to say, I was not argueing that suprises work just because thier suprises. As well as to say, that there are multiple viable strats against any race, not just one.

[Prozerran]

I was not argueing that pros don't know what to do on the fly, however, mass tanks is also a risk.

I'm not arguing, I'm discussing. :P

At any rate, I disagree with Mass Tanks being a risk. Following the flow of any game, the NE has a very, VERY narrow window to stop HU from massing Tanks. Watch some 4k.Todd replays vs NE. You'll see NE players struggle relentlessly to come up with a solution, and there really isn't a great one.

At best, (I already mentioned keeping the HU expo down) catching the tanks on the move and surrounding them is a good start, and protecting choke points with AoW's and protectors couldn't hurt (on TS, for instance). As far as unit options are concerned, you can consider at each Tier, HU has the advantage. Defend > Archers, Towers > Hunts, Breakers > Bears, Mortars > Dryads (with significant micro, Dryads can hold up against Mortars, but it's an uphill battle), and Barrage > Chims.

What's funny is that most pro HU's that don't perform this strategy lose to NE. Todd is the only pro I know using the Tank strat against NE, and since he worked on it for Racewars, he's managed to end most of his games within 18-28 minutes.

[RedRagToAnOrc]

I casted a Hu vs NE game recently on Lost Temple between srs.Dollar and the Flying Finn, Satiini. Sats massed Ancients at every expansion and his main base, and when Dollar's tanks came along, he uprooted all the Ancients and used them to focus down the Tanks along with the rest of his army. Satiini wins.

It's certainly not unbeatable.

[h0bgawblin]

LOL, you musta been laughing your ass off at that one redrag. that's flipping halarious, if I were that human player I would have cried. NE's have some crazy BS up thier sleaves when it comes to thier damn trees. I've watched some moon games recently, he abuses ToL+creep=expo so much it's obsene.

[Basan]

RedRag', can you (or anyone else) please direct me towards that cast or replay? I tried searching for it at WCReplays.com but wasn't able to find it. :(