Naga sea witch, and mana

[h0bgawblin]

One thing i've been wondering about the naga sea witch is the use of forked lightning. I have heard it's used to stack damage on bears and such. However, it seems to me that the only reason you would get frost arrow over this is because when you first get the sea witch, you are not facing many units. With that said, is it wise to pick level 2 arrow>forked lightning. In addition, unless you plan to kill the NE at tier 2, I am thinking blood mage first is the better decision.

Now on to the second topic, as a human player, mana has never really been much of a concern. However, now that I see other hero combos that do not involve the AM, I am begining to consider this thing other races call mana as a factor in my strategies. I believe I am going to consider the policy of see it, shoot it, to be a luxury. I will be switching my views to, thats juicy, boom. This thread is made to consider the use of the sea witch(for my personal understanding) in any match up, but namely night elf.

As well as hero mana limitations, and how much they should be considered, especially as a human player, denying the brilliance arua. Because of that luxury, I have had trouble doing anything but AM first.

[Yoda]

The Naga Sea witch isn't an excellent hero, IMO. She can't creep brilliantly, and runs out of mana pretty quickly. Not to mention that she'll be owned by the DH the elf will probably be using. I have never used her when playing seriously. :shiftyr:

Here's (http://www.wcreplays.com/replays.php?get=10252&R=2) a "pro" replay in which both players take the NSW as a secondary hero.

[h0bgawblin]

I actually like the naga sea witch for the forked lightning, otherwise, the staff of imba becomes impossible. Stacking forks on those bears really helps out, also, the DH has a hell of a time countering naga because of her range and mana pool. Her spells also have a low mana cost, which helps a lot. Naga is a great hero, however, she takes a certain mentality to use her. Simply because she plays differently than most heros.

I also don't know of a better hero in the NE match up, that has reasonable synergy with either the archmage or blood mage. mana burn creates a difficult situation as far as hero selection goes. Hence the second part of the topic, when the DH is or is not in place, what is the preference for mana usage and conserving energy. IE the freedom in which a human uses a pandas aoe, is much different from how a night elf would use it.

[RedRagToAnOrc]

The Naga Sea witch isn't an excellent hero, IMO. She can't creep brilliantly, and runs out of mana pretty quickly. Not to mention that she'll be owned by the DH the elf will probably be using. I have never used her when playing seriously. :shiftyr:

Here's (http://www.wcreplays.com/replays.php?get=10252&R=2) a "pro" replay in which both players take the NSW as a secondary hero.

NSW is a great secondary hero and is the weapon of choice for both players in NE vs Hu until recently (when NE started using DR/Panda), but as a first hero, is pretty bad as a general rule. I'd advise against it, to be honest, mainly for the reasons Yoda suggested.

[h0bgawblin]

I'm thinking more of a Blood mage, and naga sea witch aoe combo. Simply because I find water elementals don't do jack unless your tier 2 pushing. Thusly, this way you have a strong aoe against bears. Also, redrag, could you give me some ideas on the timing of the forked lightning.

Here is a video of someone using mk storm bolt with amazing timing. Check this shit out, it's fantastic, this was what I meant in the mana part of the topic. http://youtube.com/watch?v=YJAv19VUqko I don't know who swain is, but I like his hero use.

[RedRagToAnOrc]

I'm thinking more of a Blood mage, and naga sea witch aoe combo. Simply because I find water elementals don't do jack unless your tier 2 pushing. Thusly, this way you have a strong aoe against bears. Also, redrag, could you give me some ideas on the timing of the forked lightning.

Here is a video of someone using mk storm bolt with amazing timing. Check this shit out, it's fantastic, this was what I meant in the mana part of the topic. http://youtube.com/watch?v=YJAv19VUqko I don't know who swain is, but I like his hero use.

Ewww! Sorry to burst the balloon, good sir, but that ain't going to work. :cry:

Firstly, Water Elementals are nicknamed "Water Tauren" by quite a few players, simply because that's basically what they are at Tier 1 - you can tank an entire creep camp, fend off early rushes, and tower rush an opponent with these things! A Human player saying that Water Elementals are useless at Tier 1 is like a Night-Elf player saying that a Demon Hunter is useless at Level 6.

Back on topic, Bloodmage with towers is obviously a potential strategy, edging down the same precarious tightrope as ANGRY_KOREA_MAN, but Bloodmage with Footmen means you don't really have anything early on to help out those fragile Footmen.

Against NE, the BM gets mercilessly Mana Burned, or aganst a DR has nothing to fend off a Tier 2 DR/Panda push with (Flamestrike forces Archers to reposition briefly, but only briefly). Bearing in mind Flamestrike hurts your own units too, when the Footmen are focusing down the Archers, Flamestrike is going to be damned difficult to aim, and with a little repositioning, the NE can force you to either walk through the flames with your Footmen, or take damage running away. It's a double edged sword, and the edge facing you is a little more sharp. ;)

As for timing on the NSW, that's a little easier to talk about. Basically, if you're against Bears, you're usually going to be screwed unless you have a vastly superior army, Tier 3 with lots of Gryphons, or wonderful micro. However, when you do time it, aim it for when the Bear is at perhaps 150 HP. Watch a replay with a NE who has good Bear micro, and he'll staff those things the second they're about to die. You, therefore, take advantage of that. After a few bear kills, a good NE player will realise you're doing this, however, so you need to be cautious with your mana usage.

Summary: If you can get this to work, you're a god.

[h0bgawblin]

I was trying to ask also about the general use on her forked lightning. Because spell timing is a terrible part of my game play. So I was thinking about her, and the panda. If you could get a replay or vod with that information, it would help. Also, I meant that W.E.'s are useless at tier 2/3 because of dispell. Tier 1 is beastly, but I don't think I fully understand the implications of spells in general. which is partly why I made this thread. Would be much easier if I could get you on vent RR:)

[GroG]

If you get naga 2nd for push, get arrows to pick off units while you are pushing so they can't just micro in and out of their base.

If you get naga 3rd for nuking, get Forked Lightning and use it much like UD nukes with DK/Lich/CL. But instead go something like stormbolt + forked, or bolt (or stomp) + flamestrike + forked (use it for the last direct damage on something).

As for vs. bears using flamestrike, you are probably going to need a stun or else the bears will just run past your meat or flamestrike while it's being cast and own you. I sugguest MK + stomp. I had some success using stomp + blizz vs lategame NE, it's very very good if you have the proper mentality. So just stomp + flamestrike + forked lightning, then use rifles or gryphs to FF bears. just don't leave mk in there to be surrounded + ff

Personally I only used flamestrike in humor mirror. I used BM + MK quite a lot because AM + footie + creep is very common, this is strong vs that. you can either creep harass with flamestrike, or you can just go and flamestrike peasants while he is creeping, very good. then at tier 2 pick up mk and go stomp/bolt, and if you can you can usually kill all of his mining peasants with stomp + flamestrike. TP, come back, and you will usually have enough edge right there to win. if not, just use stomp vs footies and stun will give you time to aim flamestrikes. works very well. defend is good here vs towers, etc.

understanding that people will always micro out of your flamestrike unless you really fuck them up creeping (flamestrike/blizz creep harass is soo good, you nab creep kills and unit kills). you NEED something to stun his units and give you time to get the strike or blizz off, it by itself usually never gets kills. try out strike + stomp, you'll like it.

just some food for thought

[h0bgawblin]

Thanks grog, I'm still trying am/panda, but this is a nice spin on it. I truly grow tired of the archmage. I like him a lot, but I really want to try to throw in more mk and BM. That's actually why I made this post, to get some ideas about mana conservation.

[GenocideAlive]

I've had a lot of success with MK first as HU vs NE. I usually go for the quickie tier 1 sexpo and then hard tech with towers. Invisimortar works good as a midgame thing if you just want to be a total asshole. I usually go Bolt/Bash so that I can try to stunlock heroes like the DH early game. It causes most NEs fits to have their heroes nuked.

It's important to switch away from the DH after that, though. He'll just pot/staff him up and it becomes pretty wasteful to try to do anything to him. Focus on army counters and early game pressure.

This, of course, assuming that you dont' do anything like tower rush the NE, which is fabulously successful. ^^

[h0bgawblin]

Amen to that, i've also given heavy consideration to double racks tier 1 human rushing/harassing against NE. The fact of the matter is, if they don't have the aoe for it, they are boned. 4 archers, meet mass foots!

[PsychoPath]

I'm thinking more of a Blood mage, and naga sea witch aoe combo. Simply because I find water elementals don't do jack unless your tier 2 pushing. Thusly, this way you have a strong aoe against bears. Also, redrag, could you give me some ideas on the timing of the forked lightning.

Here is a video of someone using mk storm bolt with amazing timing. Check this shit out, it's fantastic, this was what I meant in the mana part of the topic. http://youtube.com/watch?v=YJAv19VUqko I don't know who swain is, but I like his hero use.

Swain has been an upper tier human player since some time in RoC. One of the best human players in RoC on any server, but not as dominant in TFT. Still a very good player and a former member of clan Pooh

[GroG]

Clan Pooh, I used to play with those guys back in the day. Me, Piglet, and Tigger used to hang all day making fun of how girly Christopher Robin and Winnie were together.