My new system

[DaDaimon]

I've always been a little bit against democracy, but it was the best kind of system we had (or systems derrived from it). However I have done some thinking and during my latin class I came up with the following system:

You could say it is partially derrived from democracy, however I have limited the influence from voters on each other so to say. It is basically a limited version of what the majority can decide for the minority, you could say it is an extension of civil liberties.

With further ado I present to you, my system, yet without a name:

We have five groups in this system, we have the congress, senate, goverment, the people and the parties.
Now the people choose the congress and the senate and the goverment, but they will be limited in their power. Especially in taxation and goverment programs. Every citizen will be member of a party or will not (duh). Every citizen member of a party or not, will pay a minimal amount of money in taxes let's say 10% of their income (the exact amount will depend on how high the spending will be). Those taxes, let's call them Basic Taxes, will pay for defense, justice, police, foreign affairs, internal affairs education and finance. Everyone will use those services so there everyone will pay for them.

Then you are also member of a party if these services are not sufficient for you. For instance if you are member of a socialist party you will get healthcare, social security, welfare etc as extra services, however the party will then recieve income tax from you, based on the tax brackets they want in their program, which you will pay in order to be a member of that party and to recieve those services.

Basically I'll let everyone choose wheter they want to pay for welfare and decide wheter they need it. The current system allows the majority to decide what the minority needs. (well with the electoral system not always, but the fact remains A decides for B what he needs, wheter he wants it or not, he will be forced to cough it up).


Do ask questions if something isn't clear.

[MacG]

Basicly, no one wants to pay for welfare, ultimately, the collaspe of the welfar system and the raise of military parties and your system is PWN!

When you say congress, you do mean House of Representatives do you? And you forgot about the justice system. What about taxation on Businesses and Corporations?

[DaDaimon]

Taxation on business and corperation will fall under the minimum income tax, basically businesses will be seen as persons, tax-wise.
Surely people want to pay for welfare there are a lot of democrats.
Justice is mentioned there under basic.

[Cygnus]

I'm sorry to say DaDaimon but your government has a few problems I can find right off the bat. First, there's the slight difficult thing of knowing what services (and thus their taxes) they need to manage all the people. Imagine the bureaucracy that you would need to manage everything?

Next, by the basic idea of your government I'd have to say that political parties should not exist. For what if the only political party that has some of your ideas does not have all of them? Then in turn do you get your views repressed? What happens then?

Then, how do you expect the government to get anything done with a huge amount of political parties with conflicting aims? Not much. Unless of course, some of the parties would ally to get atleast some of their views on the agenda. What happens then?

Finally, your government still has a lot of kinks in it. Senate and a Congress? Why would you need two of them, since of course your nation should not even be bothering with states rights... Then how do you propose what the other part known as the "government" do? What is that? Or will it be subdivided it even more?

[OboeGuru]

What does the government do, anyways? It doesn't seem to be defined at all.

Seems a lot like a confederation, and look how that worked out for the South during the "Civil War." It screwed them over majorly.

[Cygnus]

It wasn't exactly the idea of a confederation that screwed them over royally, it was more the precedent of sucession and states rights which they had to fear. The Confederate government always had problems of curbing the govenors who might have their own ideas of what their portion of the nation. During the latter have of the war the state of Georgia acted more like an independent nation than that of the Confederacy States, as it's neighbors floundered...

Let's led DaDaimon though explain what the government is before we begin to assume that it's a confederacy though.

[OboeGuru]

I meant from what he's said so far that it seems a bit like a Confederation, which he's more than welcome to shoot down with all force and say it's Facism or whatever is the opposite of that or a more "neutral" form of government. In a way it was the idea of Confederation that was at fault, the degree of disunity that's inherent under a Confederation led to a weaker Southern army. If it weren't for that natural flaw in Confederations (as practiced in the States), we could very well be still calling people the N-word. *shudder* Thank goodness the South screwed up.

[MacG]

Weak Central Government and Strong State Government is what our founding fathers didn't want and what exactly screwed over the former Confederate States of America.

But his party system is something that would put political parties into free for all. Factions that would split the central government and it's citzens, allowing any foreign nation to take advantage. From Instigation of factions to taking sides and promising greater power.

[DaDaimon]

My appologies for not replying any sooner, however I live a couple of time zones away.

Cygnus you wanted to know what a goverment is according to me.

A goverment in the most basic sense of the word to me is, citizens united to control a certain geographical area. Protecting it from the outside, keeping order on the inside.

You have asked a fair share of questions cygnus, which I apparently haven't properly explained, nor explained at all.

Firstly I would like to say that the goverment will still be chosen the old fashioned way, political parties competing for the favours of the voters. Those parties can decide how exactly they would like to manage the tasks assigned to the goverment, however they will not be allowed to enlarge the goverment in any sense.
The goverment will only be able to manage the internal affairs, like the law, traffic jams etc external affairs like foreign policy, defense spending and education. (naturally there will be a Financial/treasury department for taxes etc).

Things like welfare, food stamps, social security, or healthcare will be cancelled as goverment programs. They will become the task of either insurance companies or your political party which will function as one in those cases. You will pay a certain amount of your income to that party, if you want social security, healthcare, welfare etc. Different parties will have different views on it. For instance you'll have republican healthcare or democratic healthcare etc or you can choose to have none at all and decide how to spent your money yourself.

So in short a lot of things will stay the same, however things like social security, welfare etc will become voluntary.

As for the congress (house of representatives) and senate, I tried to apply it to your american system, because I doubt alot of you would now the dutch system, however we do have a house of representatives and the equal, well not exactly, of your senate. First and Second chamber.

I now however have to go, since I have a prior engagement in Amsterdam.

Cheers.

[Kahuzal]

I have a system too... but it requires the genoside of the mexican-eskimos...

Actually, DD your's is good but it's compleatly off-base from what my system is like in my mind (and should actually bring peace and not death [even to mexican-eskimos]).

[MacG]

Kahuzal, you may have just discriminated against 3 people in the world.

[Cygnus]

Thanks for explaining some more, but I have to more questions:

First, would not your government cause more loyalty to the parties then not the government? Then you end up going full circle and up having more internal divisions and your nation might dissolve into chaos.

Secondly -

As for the congress (house of representatives) and senate, I tried to apply it to your american system, because I doubt alot of you would now the dutch system, however we do have a house of representatives and the equal, well not exactly, of your senate. First and Second chamber.
I'd like to hear more on the Dutch system because I have no clue what it is and it might improve your ideas.

[DaDaimon]

Well as for your first question, isn't there already more loyalty to the parties than to the goverment? Just take a look at america for instance. A republican is loyal to a republican goverment, he or she (damn political correctness) or it, will still not be against a democratic goverment, but will attack it. Same goes for the democrats, in the past four years how many times was Bush attacked on his policies and by whom?
However I am guessing you mean loyalty in an extreme form, when the party dictates everything kind of loyalty and the members follow, though I don't think that could possibly happen. That would be far too extreme. Still I can be blind for it.

As for the dutch system:

Well basically we have two chambers and a goverment. The first chamber is comparable to the senate in the US, it is indirectly chosen by the people, it are basically the 'states' sending their representatives to the first chamber. This is because the netherlands used to be somewhat of a federation of states. Called the seven united Netherlands.
The Second Chamber is directly chosen by the people in the national elections. They control the Goverment, while the second chamber is controlled by the first chamber. Or they are supposed to control the goverment. In theory there is supposed to be a duality between the goverment and the parties in the second chamber. To keep the powers seperated.
I hope that explains it sufficiently. I can't go to deep on it and there could be some inaccuracy however very very small ones to keep it simplified.

[MacG]

All governments sounds great, it is just the people who uses them will determine the success.

[RelinaIonna]

TN: Bah screw all government.