Community problem.

[Merovingians]

Here's the problem :

Starcraft UMS map making has become an art through years of testing. It has taken countless hours by many mapmakers to discover some of the tricks that are done in maps. We know this, but the sad part comes in when the map makers refuse to share the information. We need to -share-. People unlock the maps to -look- at the triggers and learn, but they are shunned for that. I remember a particular and very popular moderator posting over at BlizzForums about not sharing a particular map making trick.

It's horrible, horrible practice. This is technology, and not everyone has as much time to spend testing different things. I am sure there are hundreds and hundreds of map makers that are just as intelligent as others, but who do not have the time to sit with an editor and test triggers for hours to see what new things they can do. Share.

Keeping technology secret and hoarding it all for yourself is very very greedy and it is against the philosophy of collective progression. It's like learning how to use electricity, and then never telling anyone how. Imagine where we, as the human race, would be if every scientist refused to share their discoveries. They just make their own medicine (aka map) and refuse to share. It would very well be 100% probable that you are preventing someone else from learning from your work and taking it a step further.

All of this, in essence, creating a smarter community which will in turn come out producing an infinite amount of quality maps. Let's get to sharing everything we learn.
Let the WarBoards community flourish as a whole and let us surpass all previous and existing communities. This is a great opportunity, we are just beginning to shape this community. Let's make sure it's done right.



-Mero

[Doom_Dragoon]

Now what trick are you saying I didn't want to share? If you mean griding, I eventually revealed how griding works, other than that I have no idea what you're talking about.

The reason people don't reveal their secrets is because they don't like good techniques falling into the hands of crappy map makers. If a handfull of people know a certain trick, it's that much more fun to finally learn it without people telling you how to do it. We had to learn the things we know the hard way, I for one did. Everything I learned, in exception of interceptor trick I learned through study and testing. Although some people like myself learn a trick and keep it secret, as with griding, which I'll admit I unlocked one of Bolts maps to study. I didn't pass out the map and I told him I did it though. He didn't mind as long as I didn't give out the map. I studied that map for about a week when everything finally came together. When I finally figured it out, I felt so proud of myself. That alone is the main reason secrets aren't revealed. People are proud of what they learned and want anyone else who wishes to learn to learn the same way they did. It's just unfair for people to just blurt out secrets that took some of us some quality time to actually learn and master.

[Merovingians]

I never said any name at all, Doom_Dragoon ;/

As with sharing techniques, I don't see how a "crappy" map maker could do anything 'unworthy' with it....and like I said in the post, not everyone can learn "the hard way" because everyone doesn't have the same amount of time to sit with an editor and starcraft and test them out.

No disrespect to anyone, if you noticed, the intent of the post was a good-natured effort in progressing the map making community as a whole.

By the way, Doom, I am working on an RPG and I admire and respect your knowledge, do you think you can help me with a small problem? It's something I have seen in some maps and I need it to further the storyline...but it's just not working. I've tried many methods if you want to hear them....could you take a look at the map or help in any way?

Thanks.

[Nozomu]

You know, it's sort of a source of pride for a map-maker to have developed their bag of tricks. It's taken me years to come up with my specialized techniques, organizational methods, and ways of critical thinking that allow me to use some of these tricks. To a triggester at Doom's, Bolt's, BST's, Omega's, or my level, we just see these tricks as part of the flow of making the map - they're not "tricks" per se, as much as they are efficient methods of accomplishing difficult tasks within the limits of StarEdit and the trigger system. As long as it's not a hex-editing trick, any trick can be figured out with enough practice and a detailed understanding of how StarCraft works. If you're trying to be a good map-maker, cutting corners (like asking people to tell you how to do tricks) will only set you back. The real challenge (and fun) of map-making is developing the techniques, not necessarily using them. If you can't figure out a trick and want help, usually Doom or I will hint at how it's done without giving it away, to allow you to think the process through yourself. In the long run, the overall quality of your maps will be higher because you will be a more well-rounded map-maker. Also, learning the critical thinking process of developing tricks will allow you to adapt to other tricks much more easily, and develop your own that much more easily. You can't have a real map-making "style" unless you figure these things out for yourself.

[Geno]

I never said any name at all, Doom_Dragoon ;/

As with sharing techniques, I don't see how a "crappy" map maker could do anything 'unworthy' with it....and like I said in the post, not everyone can learn "the hard way" because everyone doesn't have the same amount of time to sit with an editor and starcraft and test them out.

No disrespect to anyone, if you noticed, the intent of the post was a good-natured effort in progressing the map making community as a whole.

By the way, Doom, I am working on an RPG and I admire and respect your knowledge, do you think you can help me with a small problem? It's something I have seen in some maps and I need it to further the storyline...but it's just not working. I've tried many methods if you want to hear them....could you take a look at the map or help in any way?

Thanks.

The last time anyone really said a big trick, was back when BSTRhino told everyone about hyper triggers on a board... Last I remember, everyone used them. Not to say it's being misuesed, but it was in a few maps.

Also, another trick... Cloaked units... It gets old now. Every new map I have seen uses them. I am officially tired of cloaking things, unless of course, it's an older map, where it was done properly.

Yet another trick, fast maps, DD told everyone how to do it on BF, and now I have seen two or three maps that SUCK use it... I deleted both maps, mostly because of the suxxorness of them...

I am not trying to be rude, but in my opinion, share if you want. My maps always go protected now, because I will release new versions when I WANT to. If you want a copy of any of my future maps, ask, and lastly, if I don't give a map out, it's because I want it to be MY map forver. If I used a new cool trigger in it, I might tell someone after a few months. Until then, I can say "I did that! I made that trigger happen! That was all me!" Once that feeling is done, sure, I will tell people, but until I feel ready to say anything on my maps, I don't release info.

Of course, that is my logic. No rudeness intended.

~Larry "Geno" Meyers

[Doom_Dragoon]

You know, it's sort of a source of pride for a map-maker to have developed their bag of tricks. It's taken me years to come up with my specialized techniques, organizational methods, and ways of critical thinking that allow me to use some of these tricks. To a triggester at Doom's, Bolt's, BST's, Omega's, or my level, we just see these tricks as part of the flow of making the map - they're not "tricks" per se, as much as they are efficient methods of accomplishing difficult tasks within the limits of StarEdit and the trigger system. As long as it's not a hex-editing trick, any trick can be figured out with enough practice and a detailed understanding of how StarCraft works. If you're trying to be a good map-maker, cutting corners (like asking people to tell you how to do tricks) will only set you back. The real challenge (and fun) of map-making is developing the techniques, not necessarily using them. If you can't figure out a trick and want help, usually Doom or I will hint at how it's done without giving it away, to allow you to think the process through yourself. In the long run, the overall quality of your maps will be higher because you will be a more well-rounded map-maker. Also, learning the critical thinking process of developing tricks will allow you to adapt to other tricks much more easily, and develop your own that much more easily. You can't have a real map-making "style" unless you figure these things out for yourself.You're exactly right. If you don't have the time to learn certain tricks, maybe you don't need to learn them.

I only gave away the 2x speed trick for a personal experiment, and from what Geno says, I was right to think people would use the little 'trick' to make crappy maps.

[Merovingians]

Wow, a flow of greedy "It's mine and you can't have it!" posts. Grow up, people. How does it hurt you if someone who is obviously less intelligent than you are (the 'crappy map maker') used it for his 'crappy' map....sounds like glory hogging to me. You will always be the one to invent the trick. If you don't enjoy the map they made using your trick, then don't play it, but remember you made those people happy by helping them create that map. They are enjoying starcraft. Isn't that what it's all about?

With that mode of thinking, you don't 'deserve' to use your computer. Why are you online? Did you discover how to make computer's communicate within each other all over the world on your own? Did you figure it out for yourself?
Geno - I agree, if you decide after a few months, it's time to release it, then thank you. Letting it die with you would just be silly.

How old are you people, really? Did you see Thomas Edison say, "It's MINE, you can't have it!"....sounds like childish greediness. Not to be rude.


And also, Doom, you sound very angry. I noticed you didn't read my posts or you just ignored my request for help from you. Thanks anyways.

[Doom_Dragoon]

Actually, I did read it, but I completely forgot to reply to it. Just tell me what the problem is and I'll see what I can do.

On you saying I sound angry:
I only speak like this because I know how it feels to learn things the hard way, and I'd have it no other way. Some things take blood and tears to do, so why should you just up and give it up?

[Merovingians]

Allright, thanks. I really appreciate your help, you are a seasoned veteran and your skills are worthy of admiration.

I'll explain the situation :

I have an island, (it's a pirate RPG, real sea pirates) and I have the sequence set up to further my storyline, an introduction of a character. All players are center-viewed on the moving location (dropship) which is supposed to be a pirate (an important character) coming into the dock from voyage at sea. The ship docks and a Dark Templar for Player 2 is created (the character)...

The problem is, Player 2 has no other units until this point, when his character finally is introduced in this RPG, but when his Dark Templar is produced, it goes on a rampage. It's not allied with anyone, at all. I have checked and re-checked the triggers, I have done them manually for each player and have done it by forces. I have arranged them in different ways (ally trigger being at the very top of trigger listing) and still, he decides he must kill everyone.

Also, to note, this problem happened when I opened StarForge to use the terrain editor. When I was done and went back to using SC-XE, I went to test it, and he is Mr.Rebellious. Another problem, is no matter how many or what type of unit I place on the map for Player 2, when you test it in game, the units are not there. I have placed ghosts, goliaths, all in different spots just to see if they will show up in game, and they dont.

What happened to Player 2???

[Doom_Dragoon]

lol, Player 2 doesn't exist in your map. You either set him to human and the human isn't present, or SF set him to inactive because you forgot to place a start location for him. What's happening is that SC is creating a unit for a non-existant player, and when this happens, that unit is an enemy to every other player.

Go in and change him to human control.

[Neo]

Someone, I believe, suggest we do Tutorials on the BlizzSCUM site, maybe we could do "private" tutorials? At least for this group -- make sure that those who have access wont use it for something stupid (which isnt hard)

-Neo

[UED77]

Lol, yeah, we can do that. Does each former BS member have an access ID?

But the problem is since this is not a tight-knit team, how can we trust that new members (here) would have the expertise to use those tutorials effectively?
How are we gonna differentiate b/w a good and an average mapmaker?

Reviews? Doesn't that take away the "free traders" feeling?

UED77

[Neo]

Lol, yeah, we can do that. Does each former BS member have an access ID?

But the problem is since this is not a tight-knit team, how can we trust that new members (here) would have the expertise to use those tutorials effectively?
How are we gonna differentiate b/w a good and an average mapmaker?

Reviews? Doesn't that take away the "free traders" feeling?

UED77

Maybe, but you get the idea? We could have a private area, or maybe ask AJ for a private forum here to discuss things, post things, etc... and only allow BST/Doom to allow people access.

-Neo

[UED77]

Hmmm... we can have a private forum?!?!

Like the staff forum?

Cool, why didn't we think of this for BF/BS... well too late now, let's do it here, if AJ lets us.

UED77

[Doom_Dragoon]

It's kinda possible, but you would have to create a user-group and if one group gets a user-group, others want one, wherein the problem lied back at BF, but with less people over here...

[UED77]

I'd say others don't have such important matters to discuss as we would have...

But yeah you're right. Humans are envious creatures. Mine!

UED77

[EdvardMunch]

How hard would it be to put up a forum on our website Mr. Moogle?

[Neo]

Ok but you dont get the point.

Others may want usergroups, but we are the only ones who need one.

And technically you can specify each user to have access to a specific forum, it doesnt always have to be done through usergroups (I think? -- its a few versions since Ive admined a vB)

The problem at BF was that no one in Administration cared. I cant imagine why we cant get a private forum here. I mean how hard?

And if usergroups are that "big a problem" we could jsut hide the profile field.

-Neo

EDIT: Not hard, but id prefer not to, it seems to defeat the purpose of these forums ;)

[UED77]

Let's try persuading our dear friend Rhino about that... hopefully he can use his connections to get us a private forum.

UED77

[EdvardMunch]

It does defeat the purpose, but then again, what purpose do we have for these ones? If we have a private forum here, no one besides us will be able to read our messages, so there's really no difference between a private forum here and a private forum at our home site, besides more bandwidth gobbling.

[Nozomu]

"Blood, sweat and tears"... A good phrase, Doom. That's exactly the point. Learning the tricks won't make you a better map-maker. Only through practice and determination will you understand the process, and we like to encourage that rather than see tons of crappy maps with "uber-1337" tricks floating around. The fact is, no matter how many tricks you know, only the core skills matter. But, with a good understanding of the core skills, the tricks will just be a minor part of your style. If you don't have the time to practice, that's too bad. That's what it takes to become a good map-maker. I wouldn't hesitate at all to give any trick to Doom, because he knows actual practical applications and uses of such things. Whereas some who joins the forum and says, "Yoo guys know ho to make units clak? Im makin a defense that will :pwn: all oth dfenses, and I need clak to make it look cooler. OOK?" will have a much harder time eliciting help. However, if all he wanted was, say, a detailed explanation of the Transmission action, we would readily help him as it would improve his map and his map-making skills.

[Neo]

It does defeat the purpose, but then again, what purpose do we have for these ones? If we have a private forum here, no one besides us will be able to read our messages, so there's really no difference between a private forum here and a private forum at our home site, besides more bandwidth gobbling.

Ahh, but where one can offord bandwidth, another cant ;)

I have alot -- granted more then I currently will use for at least a year, but I dont want to risk it.

Sides some people dont like signing up five different places ;)

-Neo

[UED77]

That's right. Neo is kind enough to provide a place where we can privately host our maps, and a quick homepage, so let's don't abuse his kindness.

People, we transferred to WB, so let's use the resources at our disposal.

UED77

[EdvardMunch]

I know... I could only inquire.

[Neo]

I know... I could only inquire.

Edvard, please dont feel bad, I didnt even post correctly last time >_> Its just that the bandwidth addition to a forum even this size for a private area for us would be so negligable... But on the other hand, I dont like setting up five different forums on my site -- I already lost my main one 2 months ago, and the only one up now isnt even really for me anymore... It was in the plans but meh... never worked out :(

Oh well. If there is still a problem/or interest in this, I am sure I would be willing to host a private forum on my forums -- whenever I set them up and re-skin them ;)

I am considering, soon when my 6 months are up, moving hosts to a new one that offers alot more bandwidth/service.

So maybe at that time I can help out more, but currently I want to get my own stuff going :)

Hell, I just finished, I think, my website design site -- but its been so hard becuase I can NOT web-write professionally, I can code, design, etc... just not write ;)

-Neo

[Merovingians]

Yes I did that. It was "Inactive", I tried this already before I asked for help. It's set to Human controlled, everything is the way it's supposed to be.

What happened to PLayer 2?

[Doom_Dragoon]

Mero, if you set the trigger owned by Player 2 to create a unit for Player 2 rather than a trigger owned by Player 2 to create for Current Player, you get the rebel units.

Neo, we don't need any private forums. If we want something to be private, we have pms for that.

[MacG]

I don't see any need to hide your "tricks" since SC is so old. You should share to allow the maps to advance at a better medium.

[AJ]

I wish you guys wouldn't go through BST so much.. I mean, I am.. right here.
Anyhow first off, what reasoning do you have for not wishing to post these tutorials publically?
It seems a good way to attract people here, to see our amazing group of map-makers and their tutorials explaining things.. if the only purpose of a private forum is for you guys to post tutorials for each other, than i see no justification for it, on a community scale.

as to the technical aspects of setting one up, it doesn't involve usergroups, it's quite easy, and you need not worry about it, if it comes to that.

[Merovingians]

If that's so, what about me placing units on the map in Editor for Player 2 but when going in-game, they are not there at all? I've tried just testing a random trigger for Player 2, and it won't even fire when in game. It's almost as if Player 2 is dead in the map, inactive.

What did Starforge do to him!! ;/ I've made sure everything is the way it's supposed to be...can you look at the map?

[Nozomu]

Merovingians, does Player 2 have a Start Location? Also, any units placed for a human player who is not present when the game starts won't be there.

AJ, we don't need a private forum to post "secrets". I think the private forum thing was for private projects that we don't want stolen. We've never hoarded anything. If you read some of my posts up above I give some very good explanations for our behavior regarding tricks.

[Merovingians]

Yeah, Player 2 has a start location, hehe...as I said, everything is how it's supposed to be ;/ Arg! Do you know of any bugs that StarForge might create? I just noticed it also removed all of my sound files in the map...I made backups before I went in Starforge again, but arg!


There must be a bug or something? Is that possible? SF permamently screwing a map up?

[Nozomu]

Nothing that would cause your problem. Double-check your alliance triggers, and make sure Player 2 is a Computer player.

[Doom_Dragoon]

Well, if you still can't solve the problem, email me at DoomDragoon666@hotmail.com and I'll see what I can do.

[Neo]

Merovingians, does Player 2 have a Start Location? Also, any units placed for a human player who is not present when the game starts won't be there.

AJ, we don't need a private forum to post "secrets". I think the private forum thing was for private projects that we don't want stolen. We've never hoarded anything. If you read some of my posts up above I give some very good explanations for our behavior regarding tricks.

AJ this was the main reason for a private forum :P

Its not just for "private tutorials" which honestly I would want to go public, it would help attract people. But private projects forum would be interesting, but its not really that big a deal anymore since we dont do so many team projects here.

Oh and btw, last i knew you couldnt attach stuff in PMs :(

-Neo

[Battlecruiser]

see I don't make maps. I play them. haha I am lazy and I never will try making maps which is where people like doom dragoon and geno come in. They make maps, I play them. I think it is fair for them to hold their secrets to themselves. They are right becuse then there are too many maps which have the same triggers as their map did and their map that used it originally loses it's individuality. Also I want to comment on that anology between Thomas Edison and starcarft map makers. Thomas Edison made money from telling how electricity works and how people can use it. Mapmakers on the other hand do not make money from their maps. They do it for fun and the only physical reward they recieve from it? nothing. But they do get the pride and honor of making their own map and some of the tricks used in making the map were original ideas. So I don't think mapmakers have to share their secrets if they don't want to.

[Merovingians]

Edison made royalties for his work....the recognition of his achievements, but did not keep it for himself. Why? To further the progression of technology and sciene, for humanity as a whole. Better way of living, better understanding of our world, for -everyone-.

Get it?

[BSTRhino]

I completely agree. Inventions need to be shared. But people won't invent if they don't get any incentive to do it. And that incentive is recognition.

I have often found that people are more compelled to avoid pain than they are to gain pleasure. I believe that is what's going on here.

The way I think gets the best of both worlds is to release reference maps to show people how a specific technique is done, without having to give them the source to the rest of your map.

Edit: If you want to talk to AJ about -anything- then just talk to him. You don't have to go through me. He's not like the old BF admins.

[Battlecruiser]

Edison made royalties for his work....the recognition of his achievements, but did not keep it for himself. Why? To further the progression of technology and sciene, for humanity as a whole. Better way of living, better understanding of our world, for -everyone-.

Get it?

Yeah I understand why Edison did it but the anology does not work for map makers. The difference was money and that is a huge difference. Edison got money pride and fame. What does a map maker get if he makes a map without telling his secrets? He does not get money but he gets pride from using a new idea and he may become famous (sort of) because a lot of people will play his game. What does a mapmaker who reveals his secrets about a trigger in his game and how to do it, get? He get no money, he does not become famous because other's will use his triggers and his game will not be better than his impersonator's versions of the map.He also loses his pride because now his map is the same as other peoples and he gained nothing out of it.

Maybe you should be asking yourself what would make a mapmaker tell you his secrets. In other words what are the incentives for him to give you a trigger that took him a long time to find out how it worked.

[Merovingians]

The way I think gets the best of both worlds is to release reference maps to show people how a specific technique is done, without having to give them the source to the rest of your map.
That's a great way to put it, BSTRhino. That's exactly what I meant~! Thank you.

[Battlecruiser]

ahhh I see. ok