Heavy metal v z

[Siege_Commander]

Is heavy metal worth using in tvz? every time i play tvz, im sto frustrated losing so many infantry by being a bit careless and not scanning for lurks, or teching to sc vessels fast enough. when i think bout it, mines wud stop lurks, tanks PWN^^ and gols for support and anti muta. Thoughts, Bos, all appreciated:)

[AmigoConZerg]

Well, If you think it will work, go on ahead, I think that's a darn good way to go if you're asking me.

Try it, and then go tank and gols for offense.

You feelin' it?

[ShIhNe]

well, if your gonna go metal vs zerg, you might havea hard time in beginning if zerg 6pools or 4pools.

infrantry deals better w/ zerg cause of the medic and the firebat.
eventually, metal will even out, but the goliath wont stand up to mass mutas.
stimmed marines work much better because they survive longer w/ medics, atk rate is a bit faster so it does 12 dmg per second stimmed instead of 10 dmg per gol every 1 second.

thats one reason why most ppl use infrantry...
the other is because gosus use infrantry...

metal doesnt work too well vs mutaling but metal works ok vs ling/lurk, jsut make sure ur vult count is much higher and micro ur vults. avoid seiging tanks when there are mass lings nearby...tanks outrange lurks in tank mode anyways. but by then they will prolly switch tech to mutas

massed mutas own gols, cause of that extra splash dmg
then add lings to the mix and that force is done for

note: i think going metal requires you to micro a lot more to take advantage of ur range. microing marines vs lurks...well..all you need is 3 tanks to make them go away. from there, you can go SKTerran style or do a infrantry rush

[blupp74]

Yeah, it *can* be done, but will take more work and resources.
Metal really only fares better than infantry against lurkers. And you'll have tanks anyway.

I once beat a guy who said "Wow, mm...how original" as I killed him off.
Appearently winning is not enough. You have to be original too...by doing something that works less good, so your opponent wins instead of losing.
Or something...

[lammas]

Being orginal is good but being a winner is better. Anyways there isnt any practical openings for metal in tvz so youll be in huge disadventage if you try making metal. (unless its some tricksy rush)

well, if your gonna go metal vs zerg, you might havea hard time in beginning if zerg 6pools or 4pools.


Having 2 rax or 1 rax makes no diffrence vs 4 or 6 pool. If you have bunk ready in time you win, if you dont you lose and second rax will be built long after you have either won or lost the game.

[WickedImposter]

might work. against lurk ling, tanks and vults completely massacre. against muta ling, you can always have 1-2 valks to kill them off. ive seen it done.

[own3d0406]

You're at a disadvantage going heavy metal vs Zerg resource-wise. Maybe it might work if you contain, or if Z doesn't expand much?

[ShIhNe]

i find that the only time you go metal, is when..

you 2port fac vult/wraith rush
when the map has many cliffs and goliaths are needed to shoo away the fat overlords
when zerg is using guards/devourers

thats all i can think of...

[MatGeo]

Mines?? Pfft mines are easy to deal with just send speed ling in 1st. 1 speedling can make a lot of mines chase him before he dies. so they'd be useless and you'd end up having them brought within your tanks range and the zerg would know where to scout :D

Anyways ya it would be better but DS or plaue probably pwns that. Dunno give it try maybe it'll work :D

[Ahzz]

lemme explain some basic stuff.

Heavy metal can be very powerful against the zerg, especially a inexperienced one. Tho it's still risky.
It usually works only on one or if both the cases happen:
1) you get zerg by surprise, zerg doesn't get proper counter
2) You have a damn neat macro, you really haveto keep pushing because 50-50 fights or slightly for the zergs side should be a bit expected

You often happen to bee in deep crap if zerg starts off with mutas, especially if they're fast. Then it'll be alot harder, and you could seriously be delayed.

In a way making metal is safer for some people tho. The units have alot more hp and take more money, so keeping a good economy and sudden lurk attacks aren't usually too big of a problem.

The unit choise is very important too. You gotta keep eye on the zerg unit selection and the other way around. If terran does alot of tanks, zerg does alot of mutas and its gg. if terran does alot of goliaths, zerg makes upgraded hydra/muta combo and it suddenly becomes very hard for zerg.

Overall I'd say you're getting off easier with infantry. metal will really usually work only if you get zerg by surprise and/or he starts off with like ling/lurk

Mines?? Pfft mines are easy to deal with just send speed ling in 1st. 1 speedling can make a lot of mines chase him before he dies.

That would be if you're in front of the terran base or know exact mine position. but the thing is, if you started hydra lurk, and you have to rely on something like running one speedling ahead, it really does slow you down, seriously, since you don't know where the mines are. Even if you got through with minor damage the terran will still beat the crap outta your lurks

[lammas]

But ahzz how do you do metal in tvz? If you dont do some early attack there is pretty much no way of having as good economy as z while making metal. (island maps is whole other story ofc. But in tvz on island map you can do whatever shit you like and still win)

[Ahzz]

you should know that better, you've made metal against me a few times and won a few too
though, it would probably be something like wraith harass early on, so he wont quite have spire yet and kill a few ovies. Now you also see his tech. You gotta make a fairly fast expand, and keep checking those expoes with vulture patrols (just 1-2 vultures, concentrate on gols). Then you just macro like no other day and balance your unit choise right and attack while trying to get expo or something. If you got worse upgrades than z, it's pretty much gg

[lammas]

I believe when I see.

[Ahzz]

it seems you don't remember your own games. A pity. :D

[lammas]

oo
lets try today

[GroG]

Didn't Yosh used to metal TvZ like every game and do fairly well with it, even against pros?

Also, metal's strength is that their units are more effective than the opponents. Vults > lings, mines are good vs most ground (although not as good as vs toss), and tanks are good. In the case of gols vs muta, that's simply not true (although gols are very good vs guardians). Much, much better off with valks or cloak wraiths.

Then it comes down to producing out of factories and starports (not just raxes or facts), and vult/wraith harass->tank/valk/gol.

Once finals are over I'll start doing that crap if you want. It's pretty strong on LT, especially if you do the 1scv/3rine/1tank drop on cliff vs early expo zerg... gg!

[Ahzz]

you still need a few science vessels to irradiate bigger groups of mutas. pure gols cant fight mutas, in that I agree

[lammas]

Maybe its good once you get big army and economy. But living that long is diffrent thing.

[ShIhNe]

Vults > lings, mines are good vs most ground (although not as good as vs toss), and tanks are good.

Grog, mines are actually more useful vs toss because they only have 2 ranged ground unit, and one of them is the freakin slow reaver, which will probably be used more often in drops than being allowed to walk around. the goon takes two *slow* shots to kill a mine, and when 4 vults atk a goon, the shields are gone, the mine kills in 1 hit. everything else is melee dmg, and i believe the miens explode be4 a dt or a few zlots have a chance to atk
zerg has hydras, lurks, plus plenty of ovies to kill the mines
plus, zerg can go mutas and screw mines over. toss rarely goes scouts, and 1 carrier isnt gonna help toss that much (6+ will though)

[own3d0406]

Grog, mines are actually more useful vs toss because they only have 2 ranged ground unit, and one of them is the freakin slow reaver, which will probably be used more often in drops than being allowed to walk around. the goon takes two *slow* shots to kill a mine, and when 4 vults atk a goon, the shields are gone, the mine kills in 1 hit. everything else is melee dmg, and i believe the miens explode be4 a dt or a few zlots have a chance to atk
zerg has hydras, lurks, plus plenty of ovies to kill the mines
plus, zerg can go mutas and screw mines over. toss rarely goes scouts, and 1 carrier isnt gonna help toss that much (6+ will though)

Oh boy, where to begin? First off, 2 "slow" shots are enough to kill a mine. Add 5+ goons, an observer, and longer range, and mines are pretty obsolete vs. goons.

Secondly, who the hell is going to take aa overlord and scout for mines with it? Too time concuming. Plus, splash damage kills more units than protoss units.

[WickedImposter]

ya. against single goons without observers mines are useful, but after a while vults are only around for zlots, as goons can take out mines. however, 150/150 is a good investment for mines.

[GroG]

Clearly you misread my post. I said mines are a bit better vs. toss than vs. zerg.

[ShadeZ]

Oh boy, where to begin? First off, 2 "slow" shots are enough to kill a mine. Add 5+ goons, an observer, and longer range, and mines are pretty obsolete vs. goons.
First off hydralisks work perfectly well against mines, and so do mutalisks. Second off, zerglings make much better decoys then zealots, because they can move faster

As for protoss, if there are tanks on the other side of the mines, then they'll be getting hit as they shoot the mines will they not?

Secondly, who the hell is going to take aa overlord and scout for mines with it? A good player.

Plus, splash damage kills more units than protoss units
If they are sent en masse, sure but if a zergling or two is sent ahead, then no, not at all.

[lammas]

This is the ultimate proof. Now noone can argue for metal in tvz anymore. GG no re.

[WickedImposter]

who was playing? i cant dl rep right now.

[GroG]

eh, i played a random pubby before class, the guy talked in some foreign language i didnt understand. he tried 2 hat speedling->lurk, but speedvult > him

probably doesnt count as metal per se, but it would have been metal if this guy didnt just leave

[IrishDutchman]

Oh boy, where to begin? First off, 2 "slow" shots are enough to kill a mine. Add 5+ goons, an observer, and longer range, and mines are pretty obsolete vs. goons.

If you send goons to kill mines, they might just get roasted by tanks that are usually nearby. Placing mines close to your tanks isn't smart vs speedlots, but against goons+obs it really hinders me. That's why I usually get speedlots. :P
You see, you're either gonna lose goons to tank fire while sniping mines, or get your goons blown up by mines when attacking the tanks. The first option is better in most cases, but it still ain't the best thing since sliced bread.

[lammas]

me vs ahzz. As I said this is the final and absolute proof.

[blupp74]

If you send goons to kill mines, they might just get roasted by tanks that are usually nearby. Placing mines close to your tanks isn't smart vs speedlots, but against goons+obs it really hinders me. That's why I usually get speedlots. :P
You see, you're either gonna lose goons to tank fire while sniping mines, or get your goons blown up by mines when attacking the tanks. The first option is better in most cases, but it still ain't the best thing since sliced bread.

Well, if you use your observer to scout ahead, you'll see if there are tanks there or not. If not, blow mines away at your perusal. If there are, kill mines out of tank range (if any), then back off and wait for the speedlots and/or shuttle.

With your goons and observer in place, you've also got him "contained". If he goes for a break out, he'll probably move out his vultures first, to scout and maybe lay more mines. Kill them off with your goons. This is probably where he sieges his tanks, at which point you back off further. When (if) he unsieges, move in and start killing the tanks. If he still has enough tanks sieged to mow you down, back off again and wait (where is that shuttle anyway???).

[IrishDutchman]

Well, if you use your observer to scout ahead, you'll see if there are tanks there or not. If not, blow mines away at your perusal. If there are, kill mines out of tank range (if any), then back off and wait for the speedlots and/or shuttle.

With your goons and observer in place, you've also got him "contained". If he goes for a break out, he'll probably move out his vultures first, to scout and maybe lay more mines. Kill them off with your goons. This is probably where he sieges his tanks, at which point you back off further. When (if) he unsieges, move in and start killing the tanks. If he still has enough tanks sieged to mow you down, back off again and wait (where is that shuttle anyway???).

Conclusion: You have a hard time attacking tanks with mines in the vicinity with pure goons + an observer or two. How did we stray on to this subject anyway? going all out goons is quite daft.

[WickedImposter]

me vs ahzz. As I said this is the final and absolute proof.

is it supporting or kiling the metal v zerg>

[GroG]

lammas is against metal, i'm somewhat for it

[Ahzz]

.... Me Zerg, lammas Terran, lammas went metal and I counter it without too much trouble, that proved it somewhat

[blupp74]

.... Me Zerg, lammas Terran, lammas went metal and I counter it without too much trouble, that proved it somewhat

Well, I don't know about that...since you went almost all mutaling, and he went gol/tank. We all know gols suck against muta. Mix in lings, and they REALLY suck, since they focus on the mutas and get raped by the lings.

I didn't see a single wraith, valkyrie or science vessel in that game. Aside from that, I think he handled it well. So I'm thinking if he'd put some air into the mix, then maybe it would have worked a little better.

[adidas343]

i think metal really doesnt work well becuase of muta-ling. by the time you can get goliaths running from two gas zerg woul have more mutas than you can handle. I dont know...maybe not. XP

[blupp74]

i think metal really doesnt work well becuase of muta-ling. by the time you can get goliaths running from two gas zerg woul have more mutas than you can handle. I dont know...maybe not. XP

Well, when I watched the replay I focused mostly on the T player (lammas) because I was curious how he'd handle it. So I don't know how Z's (Ahzz) BO looked...I do remember him making 2 expos early though...but when the mutas came, T had a good number of Goliaths, that forced the mutas away. Actually all attacks from Mutalisks only in the base were fended off.

It was the mixed muta/ling when T went out to attack that didn't work.

[lammas]

I didn't see a single wraith, valkyrie or science vessel in that game. Aside from that, I think he handled it well. So I'm thinking if he'd put some air into the mix, then maybe it would have worked a little better.

Vessel irra upgrade gol tank isnt easy to manage with 2 gas. About air see http://www8.rapidupload.com/d.php?file=dl&filepath=30330.

T had a good number of Goliaths, that forced the mutas away. Actually all attacks from Mutalisks only in the base were fended off.

When they first came I was a bit short in gols and turrets. He might have done much more than was able to do in that game. Also he made late muta instead of fast 2 hat muta.

[blupp74]

Vessel irra upgrade gol tank isnt easy to manage with 2 gas. About air see http://www8.rapidupload.com/d.php?file=dl&filepath=30330.



When they first came I was a bit short in gols and turrets. He might have done much more than was able to do in that game. Also he made late muta instead of fast 2 hat muta.

I'm at work now...will watch the rep tonight.
Feel free to give away the contents before that if you want.

And no, maybe it wouldn't be easy. But my thought was that with a few walks as support to the gols, you wouldn't need as many gols, and maybe you could defend your 2nd expo better that way.

His mutas DID feel a little late, but as I said, aside from seeing him make 2 quick expos, I didn't really pay much attention to what he did.
I had my eyes on YOU!

[GroG]

1) lammas barely used vults
2) lammas went FE, why? you just double expoed. 2 fact vult speedvult gogogogogog
3) gols suck, dont use them except to mix a few of them in to your army to allow flexibility, or to beat guards
4) I highly sugguest you try 2 fact vult build, then take advantage of cloak wraith to expansion control (forces them to get ovie speed), then get valk/tank/vult
5) why would your 1 game imply that discussion is over? your not the sheriff and this isnt the wild west

metal isn't awesome, but it isnt just not viable.

[lammas]

1) lammas barely used vults

yea that was a mistake.

) lammas went FE, why? you just double expoed. 2 fact vult speedvult gogogogogog


My point was that you cant use metal in tvz unless you go for build fight (2 fac vultu 2 port wrait 2 fac tank push).

3) gols suck, dont use them except to mix a few of them in to your army to allow flexibility, or to beat guards

Then its gg vs muta. Unless I mass turret before valks in which case I say gg to 2lings or maybe hydras.

4) I highly sugguest you try 2 fact vult build, then take advantage of cloak wraith to expansion control (forces them to get ovie speed), then get valk/tank/vult

If I do 2fac vultu I either kill him or then I lose. If I kill him I dont need valks and If I lose no build will save me.I dont see what exactly you would like me to do so please give exact build order and or replay. btw if I want my valks not to die vs muta scourge I need 10 of them. And its rather expensive to keep 10 valks chilling around if he doesnt make muta after all. (but I still have to make those valks cause Its so easy for zerg to surprise with fast massive air)

5) why would your 1 game imply that discussion is over? your not the sheriff and this isnt the wild west

you clearly missed my humour attemps t.t

your not the sheriff and this isnt the wild west

This is my village.

[WickedImposter]

lol. its your village but his country :o

anyways, if you didnt use valks then it wasent exactly fair. the valks can clear out mutas extremely well.

[Siege_Commander]

i belive that mutas cost more and have a range of 3right? gols have range of 8 when upped... so thats like 2 hits in before muts can attack. FFed, thats like 2 down depending on numbers of course. so. Will equal nmber of gols win v mutas?

[lammas]

anyways, if you didnt use valks then it wasent exactly fair. the valks can clear out mutas extremely well.
please see the other rep where I did use valks.

[Ahzz]

yea, lammy had done valks, I'd have done hydras and gg. some scourge to kill valks if they come for ovies

[Siege_Commander]

So im guessing not worth it?

[Ahzz]

metal is not worth it unless you can rush zerg somehow. If you can't, or you decide to go fastexpo metal or something, everyrthing is leaning for the zerg basically. It's very hard against a player with some experience.

[blupp74]

Aside from tanks (and SV), would you say there's any advantage at all MIXING infantry with some metal? Just throw in a few occasional vults and gols in the mix...totally not worth it?

[ShIhNe]

isnt the reason you go up one tech tree is because of upgrades...

eventually you will have to decide on which class your gonna up...
unless you have like 5 expos and lots of money to upgrade both tech trees

[blupp74]

isnt the reason you go up one tech tree is because of upgrades...

eventually you will have to decide on which class your gonna up...
unless you have like 5 expos and lots of money to upgrade both tech trees

"Both tech trees"? I didn't know T had 2 trees, aside from choosing if you wanna go ghost or BC when you build the Science Facility.
If you want upgrades for metal then you have to get the armory, which will grant you both Goliaths and Valkyires.

[Ahzz]

if you'd throw in a mix then you'd get less tanks and vessels and such. also you need more factories and upgrades too later on. I've not experimented it further, but it could JUST work the first attack, kind of a fast attack btw, and if you can't do much, no good.

[ShIhNe]

wat i sorta meant was that since terran, you either go bio or metal, and you mass those structures to fight with. you also either get e-bay or dual armories to upgrade them with

like...

fighting zerg, you mass MnM w/ vessels and tanks

you get E-bay for infrantry, and maybe an armory or two for the tanks

but you focus on MnM, not on tanks

[DragonPaladin]

M&M is effective because it is very flexible. It is easy to macro, very little gas cost, and only 20 second unit build time. Also, raxes cost 150 mins. M&M is very very flexible and effective.
M&M can handle lings, hydras, mutas, ultras (ehh....not so much....), lurkers (ehhh...not so much either...)...just about anything Zerg throws at you...to protect against lurkers, you usually throw in tanks. If they go guard, you can try switching tanks -> gols instead. I don't know. I find M&M effective because if microed right, it can absorb enormous amounts of damage. Also, i find that Zerg deal very little damage outright, but they swarm. For instance, it's much easier to go M&M vs zlings because you can take a zling pileup easy than a zlot pileup (16 damage ftw). Also toss have reavers and psi storm, which deal a huge load of damage and completely owns M&M.

I was rambling..

[WickedImposter]

ya your right. its much more cost effective to go MnM against zerg, because terran and toss have effective counters for MnM (i.e terran has metal, which completly rapes mm, and toss has storm, reaver, etc.)

[GroG]

How is it easy to macro MM? I can barely keep my gold under 1000 when I'm going MM/Tank/Vessel.

Lies. All lies.

[blupp74]

How is it easy to macro MM? I can barely keep my gold under 1000 when I'm going MM/Tank/Vessel.

Lies. All lies.

Yeah...to keep production up with income, you need like 8 raxes or more. That's a lot of clicking. And you need 3 marines (6 clicks/key taps) to spend 150 minerals, while a tank only takes 2.

So I wouldn't say it's easier to macro.

My question about mixing metal into MnM was because I've gotten the impression that the AI goes for the most powerful units, or the units that fire first. And having a few gols in the mix should then attract some heat, while the marines get free shots. But maybe I'm wrong in this?

[Ahzz]

I can barely keep my gold under 1000 when I'm going MM/Tank/Vessel.
sry, it's widely known sc doesn't use gold, and since you forgot it it's obvious that you're a wc3 player and therefore, have bad macro :D

[ShIhNe]

sry, it's widely known sc doesn't use gold, and since you forgot it it's obvious that you're a wc3 player and therefore, have bad macro :D


rofl

but yea having that gol w/ the mnm sounds good
sorta sounds like ultraling
only problem is that most terran units have a rather low health count than some other toss or zerg units
ultraling is better than say gol/rine cause ultras can keep up w. lings, and gols fall behind stimmed rines
toss just lets zlots rip and goons do everything else

[lammas]

How can you claim that the size of american penises is "off topic"?

Ill put here something about metal tvz too so they cant cencore this cause of "off topic" (which its not) (btw iam cunning like a fox).

Metal is a nono, it sux and if you get bashed with marines youll lose with metal too.

[WickedImposter]

[quote=lammas.DwMT;407508]How can you claim that the size of american penises is "off topic"?[quote]

im suddenly glad that ktan deleted that post. anyways, back on topic, on the gol/rine thing, ive seen a similar strategy done. It was TvT, one t went metal and another went bc/rine. Bcs soaked up lots of dmg from gols and ffed on tanks, while rines took out the gols.

[ShIhNe]

oops sorry

wrong replay
disregard this post completely...

[lammas]

Why do you post old tvp game here?

[ShIhNe]

sorry.....wrong replay

heres the right one

[lammas]

I think that nada rushed his opponent who didnt defend correctly. (i cant understand what the zerg was thinking when he went 2 hat on that map) I never said that you wouldnt be able to rush with metal.

Btw boxer often did metal tvz on nostalgia but that totally diffrent thing cause zerg cant counter properly with 1 gas.

[Siege_Commander]

Hey guys, lammy, do you know any wraith builds for tvt/tvz?

[blupp74]

Hey guys, lammy, do you know any wraith builds for tvt/tvz?

Atleast against Z, you'll want the wraith out as soon as possible, to go ovie hunting.

So that'd be

8-9 depot
11 barracks
12 gas
15 factory
...and here I don't know supply by heart, but as soon as fac is done, you should have enough resources to make fac addon while starting a starport.
And as soon as the starport is done you should have enough resources to make a wraith. of course you make sure you have enough supply.

Personally, I've never used wraith for anything but ovie hunting against Z, so I only make 2 wraiths (sometimes only 1), then make addon, for dropship/vessel.

[lammas]

I dont like wraith build at all... doesnt work unless zerg fucks up. Anyways build order goes as blupp told. Make wall if you can with 1suply and rax.

[Siege_Commander]

Any specifics? LIke Fact 15.... port 22 or something...

[blupp74]

Any specifics? LIke Fact 15.... port 22 or something...

How specific do you need it? Just go with the flow.
You'll be making the gas at 10-11, send 3 scv's to mine as soon as it's done, then fac as soon as you have 200/100. When fac is done, make addon and start starport. (You should have the resources for both at that time).

Don't get too hung up on when to make what. Just do everything as soon as you can. The importance is the order (of course, you CAN'T make port before fac, or fac beforegas and barracks, so there's no mystery there)

[Siege_Commander]

Okay.. and do you know the Bo for vults with double ups?

[blupp74]

Okay.. and do you know the Bo for vults with double ups?

"Vults with double ups" isn't very specifik. It depends on what you're after. Remember, there's dozens of variations to each strategy.

If you want double ups, you need to choose what you prioritize: Getting vults out very fast, getting vults out semi fast with 1 up at a time, and getting vults out not so fast, but both ups asap. The latter would include making 2 facs with addons, which would seriously delay the 1st vultures coming out. Not recommended, I guess.

I'd say 1st fac asap (started at 14 supply, somewhere?), addon as soon as it's done, start fac no 2 while addon is building. When addon is complete, start 1st vulture, then start research for 1st up (which is usually mines, I guess. Maybe speed, if you see mass zealots or something).

But I'm not really playing like that. Don't think I've ever started a game thinking "ok, i'm gonna do THIS strategy this game". It just sort of turns into whatever it turns into. I try to respond to the info I get from scouting, but haven't really gotten very good at that either.

...and to be honest, I've never gone for fast vults with ups. Against T or P I always go for the tanks first. Sometimes fast mass tanks with no siege, but mostly tech to siege straight away, then pump from 1 fac into expo.

[Siege_Commander]

I played a real tvp yesterday. I researched both mines and speed before ever getting a tank, and it delayed his expo alot. Enough for me to get ebay, expo and acad while he did nothing:) I figured out im not aggressive enough in melee.