PvT: How To Stop Tanks (Money Map Strat)...

[Black.Ice]

Alright, so my little annoying cousin challenges me to a StarCraft game. I brush off the layer of dust and start playing it. He plays the money maps, Fastest to be particular.

Me, taking advantage of the plentiful resources, rush his sorry ass and kill him every time. Now, he's switched to Terran and began turtling his choke with tanks, bunkers, supply depots and rax. Later in the game, he supports his choke with with Battlecruisers. Being completely walled off, he obviously goes capital ships and goes air.

I usually go ground, and no matter what I've tried, I can't seem to break through his defense. I've rushed it with zealots, and it doesn't work, gone quick goons, and that didn't work either. I tried web with Corsairs then storm with templars.... doesn't work to well. I've tried reavers, but yeah, they're out ranged. I've tried stasis field but that didn't work either.

I think the way to go is with web, but I can't pull it off right. Anyone have any tips of how to break through this so I can continue to pwn him?

Mucho thanks.

[Siege_Commander]

carriers FTW

[ShIhNe]

ok, well, i really hate money maps because they give ya bad habits of turtling and not knowing how to expo....

i play "real" maps to bring my skill up a notch

just challenge ur cuz to a real map

if he doesnt atk you asap, and clogs his choke, heres my extreamly noob strat.
i dont play toss but...

1.build pylon at home
2.build forge
3.build pylon where it wont be seen by him, but still close enough so you can warp some cannons in to annoy him ( by now you should have around 200 minerals unused due to money map....)
4.build cannons in his base, and contain him there. usualyl at this stage, noobs get really pissed and leave
5.tech to goons or w.e you think nessacary to kill him

if you find his base and its already walled....
build pylon outside his choke, but cant be reached by tanks and is unseeable
build a few cannons to make sure there wont be any rine rushes....
tech to goons, arbs, and high templars...
research hallucination
research goon up
research recall
send 4-5 arbs(w/ about 10 decoys, send decoys in first, put real ones in the middle) into his peon line
recall all ur goons
rinse and repeat

Note: im not sure if you can recall arbs, but if you can, every arb that recalls, make it recall an arb+15 goons or something. that way you can keep recalling

now im gonna get flamed...

[Cpt.Chronic]

If he builds up his choke like that just tech to shuttle. Put either reavers or high templars in it and drop his worker line. 1 storm or 1/2 scarabs can kill almost all of his workers. After this, I'd say get arbiters or carriers. If you go arbiters just recall in his base. Since you killed his workers, if the recall doesn't finish him, just start pounding his choke cause he will be so low on units he won't be able to hold it.

[McNewgin]

As already state since he builds the defence up in his choke use either a shuttle drop or an arbiter recall to get inside his base. If you wanna have some fun with him after u do this attack his choke at the same time. Watch as he panics trying to figure out how to handle an outside and inside attack. Odds are he's a noob from playing fastest maps only and won't be able to counter.

[bloodbane]

Try mind controlling a Scv and recall it out and expand or options if u still have trouble.

[WickedImposter]

you can always stasis his units at choke and rush in to kill everything. btw money maps ftl

[ShIhNe]

kill him the way pros kill noobs

challenge him to a real map and he will die

[Black.Ice]

I'm not a SC regular, and I used to play regular maps. However, I solely play with cousins and my entire SC gaming includes money maps because that's all they play. I could care less, because my goal is to kill them, not become an SC gosu.

I usually do the drop thing on him, yet I can't get through his choke. I think I'm going to have to use my disruption web more effectively.

Anyways, I don't think I'm a noob nor do I think he's a noob. Granted, if we switched to normal maps we'd suck ass, but yea, I know the basics of how to play and get around SC. Maybe I should get back to normal maps and see how I do...

Anyways, thanks for the suggestions. I think I'm going to try a drop on him or something. I'll post a replay some time...

[own3d0406]

I usually do the drop thing on him, yet I can't get through his choke. I think I'm going to have to use my disruption web more effectively.

How do you not get past his choke? The only anti-air defense he has is bunkers (with marines I'm assuming), and he doesn't even have turrets. Arbiters+shuttles.

[WickedImposter]

hmm there are different counters for this.

ZERG: you could swarming front of choke and coming in with lurk/ling. bcs might be a problem, you could plague them. you could always mix it up, like attack choke with swarm while killing side with guardians

PROTOSS: easy enough, stasis the shit out of everything, rush in arbiters, and recall. cant get much simpler than that.

TERRAN: well, seeing as this is money maps, you could just mass bcs and attack from the side, where there are no bunks and tanks. you could also nuke.

[Superiorwolf]

Air, carriers, drops, arbiters.

Turrets can't stop carriers, and frozen tanks can't stop zealots until they are right next to them.

[Black.Ice]

How do you not get past his choke? The only anti-air defense he has is bunkers (with marines I'm assuming), and he doesn't even have turrets. Arbiters+shuttles.

He usually has turrets and goliaths, along with a few bc's for air defense. It's pretty tough to get through.

hmm there are different counters for this.

ZERG: you could swarming front of choke and coming in with lurk/ling. bcs might be a problem, you could plague them. you could always mix it up, like attack choke with swarm while killing side with guardians


I don't have a problem getting in with Zerg. I just use Guardians and slowly advance with swarm and hydras + lurks. They take out the bc's, and a few lurks take out any ground units.


PROTOSS: easy enough, stasis the shit out of everything, rush in arbiters, and recall. cant get much simpler than that.


That was my first attempt, but usually he gets a damned EMP or some crap off like that. The only way I've gotten it to work is send in a couple of hallucinations, have them EMP'ed, and then stasis the shit out of everything. I think my problem was bad timing; I'll work on that and try it again.


TERRAN: well, seeing as this is money maps, you could just mass bcs and attack from the side, where there are no bunks and tanks. you could also nuke.

I suck with Terran, so I won't even say anything.

Air, carriers, drops, arbiters.

Turrets can't stop carriers, and frozen tanks can't stop zealots until they are right next to them.

Thanks. I've got a bunch of stuff to try the next time I play him.

But, I did play him today and I creamed him. 3 times in a row, so he wont be talking for a week.

I don't know if you guys care to hear the details, but here they are anyway: The first game, I knew he was going to wall himself in, so I pretty much teched to reavers and did a quick drop. I threw in a few DT's just for fun, and it worked like a charm.

Second game, I used reavers + zealots. he started building rax infront of his depots, bunkers and tanks. Reavers took out rax, and the zealots just charged in. I was gonna throw in an arbiter or two for good measure, but it was gg by then.

Third game he tried a crazy M&M + firebat crap. I just owned him with zealot / goon mix.

My problem was letting him live until he got to BC's. If it does get to the late endgame like that, I'm just going to stasis and recall. I don't know why I didn't think of that earlier, it seems foolproof.

[WickedImposter]

kk. think youve got it.

[own3d0406]

He usually has turrets and goliaths, along with a few bc's for air defense. It's pretty tough to get through

If he's turtling and massing, use nukes or use my mass firebat strat.

[Black.Ice]

It was P v T

[Anoiktos]

The basic idea is that tanks are useless against air. So shuttles+anything and/or scouts will work quite well.

The second problem is that if you try to tech to carriers, he will have battlecruisers, and battlecruisers are better than carriers in general. (also, terran have stronger air in general than protoss, in my opinion: yamato half your carriers and kill the rest with focus fire, use valkyries to deal with massed anything)

I would also submit corsairs: Though difficult to control due to their gung-ho attitude, one or two of them should be able to disruption web his tank line. They're also low enough on the tech tree that you should be able to get them without disrupting your normal attack chain/build order too much.

Once the tanks are disrupted, march in and annihilate his base. The corsairs will help you if he decides to try to 'fly his buildings away'.

[own3d0406]

It was P v T

Mind control a worker or something, I dont know.

[Black.Ice]

The basic idea is that tanks are useless against air. So shuttles+anything and/or scouts will work quite well.

The second problem is that if you try to tech to carriers, he will have battlecruisers, and battlecruisers are better than carriers in general. (also, terran have stronger air in general than protoss, in my opinion: yamato half your carriers and kill the rest with focus fire, use valkyries to deal with massed anything)

I would also submit corsairs: Though difficult to control due to their gung-ho attitude, one or two of them should be able to disruption web his tank line. They're also low enough on the tech tree that you should be able to get them without disrupting your normal attack chain/build order too much.

Once the tanks are disrupted, march in and annihilate his base. The corsairs will help you if he decides to try to 'fly his buildings away'.

I usually build corsairs for backups to help against drops or any type air. I need to work on using my disruption web more effectively.

Mind control a worker or something, I dont know.

Nah, too much trouble and I want to kill him before stealing a worker. It'd take forever to tech up for the Terrans. I guess I should do that more often when I'm toying with him, haha.

[own3d0406]

Nah, too much trouble and I want to kill him before stealing a worker. It'd take forever to tech up for the Terrans. I guess I should do that more often when I'm toying with him, haha.

It was a joke :P. But my mass firebat strat did work once against zerg.

Damn I should've saved that replay.

[adidas343]

Wow dude.

Heres a hint.
On fastest maps, Terran is very weak in the beginning. Terran don't have scan in early game, GO DT... If it doesnt kill him, it will at least hold him at bay until he gets scan. During that time, you do whatever you want and mass up whatever units you want to. DT buys you time against Terran on fastest maps. They hold them at bay. Honestly, me on fastest maps when I do play, I just go Zealot/Dragoon and maybe add some HTs.

And your cousin? Just tech to Dragoons right away and blast his choke... DONT TURTLE!! As soon as you get 2-3 dragoons go to his choke and attack his supply depot or w/e it is thats there while, reinforcing your dragoons. If you break choke? send the DTs :D.

[apostolos]

If there is only 1 tank then go and recall archons near it so they can't be hit from there.The same time send forces to don't allow their army to reach the archons.If you find another tank try mind contolling it and take to a place that your cousin couldn't find it.Mind control and hide more tanks until you get an army of them.If you can't change their mode 'cause it needs the research mind control an scv and build a terran city until you recearch it.(i don't have brood war and don't know if you can build with enemy workers by controlling it:twak::bonk::worship:

[blupp74]

If there is only 1 tank then go and recall archons near it so they can't be hit from there.The same time send forces to don't allow their army to reach the archons.If you find another tank try mind contolling it and take to a place that your cousin couldn't find it.Mind control and hide more tanks until you get an army of them.If you can't change their mode 'cause it needs the research mind control an scv and build a terran city until you recearch it.(i don't have brood war and don't know if you can build with enemy workers by controlling it:twak::bonk::worship:

If his opponent only has 1 tank by the time he has researched recall, then he might as well attack with probes, because his opponent is probably afk.

Mind controlling SCV's works, but is only viable on fastmaps, and only in about 20% of the games (if even that).

Mind controlling 1 tank at a time won't be possible, because he'll have other tanks nearby, and the only thing that will accomplish is make the tank dead when it gets controlled. Time and resources is better spent on massing goons and zealots and templars, making sure the T player isn't going anywhere, then research stasis and/or recall, and attack.

But then again, fastmaps are boring, because above options is pretty much all there is. Play normal maps instead.

[Black.Ice]

Wow dude.

Heres a hint.
On fastest maps, Terran is very weak in the beginning. Terran don't have scan in early game, GO DT... If it doesnt kill him, it will at least hold him at bay until he gets scan. During that time, you do whatever you want and mass up whatever units you want to. DT buys you time against Terran on fastest maps. They hold them at bay. Honestly, me on fastest maps when I do play, I just go Zealot/Dragoon and maybe add some HTs.

And your cousin? Just tech to Dragoons right away and blast his choke... DONT TURTLE!! As soon as you get 2-3 dragoons go to his choke and attack his supply depot or w/e it is thats there while, reinforcing your dragoons. If you break choke? send the DTs :D.

DT's are nice, but you cant honestly expect me to get to DT's before he gets a bay and puts up a turret. DT's are about the same level as science vessels, and I'm sure he'll have them by now.

Nexus > Gateway > Cybernetics Core > Citadel > Templar Archives > 20 seconds for DT or whatever

CC > Rax > Engy Bay > Turret
or

CC > Rax > Factory > Starport > Sci Facility > 20 seconds for vessel or whatever.

A trick I like to use on fastest is using the advantage of no comsat. Because they can't build it on there first base, they usually build comsat on second station. If he doesn't have turrets, I just do the corsair + dt trick on him and that usually kills him off.

If there is only 1 tank then go and recall archons near it so they can't be hit from there.The same time send forces to don't allow their army to reach the archons.If you find another tank try mind contolling it and take to a place that your cousin couldn't find it.Mind control and hide more tanks until you get an army of them.If you can't change their mode 'cause it needs the research mind control an scv and build a terran city until you recearch it.(i don't have brood war and don't know if you can build with enemy workers by controlling it:twak::bonk::worship:

Thanks for the idea, but I don't think it'll work. I'll have to start using mind control more often though.

If his opponent only has 1 tank by the time he has researched recall, then he might as well attack with probes, because his opponent is probably afk.

Mind controlling SCV's works, but is only viable on fastmaps, and only in about 20% of the games (if even that).

Mind controlling 1 tank at a time won't be possible, because he'll have other tanks nearby, and the only thing that will accomplish is make the tank dead when it gets controlled. Time and resources is better spent on massing goons and zealots and templars, making sure the T player isn't going anywhere, then research stasis and/or recall, and attack.

But then again, fastmaps are boring, because above options is pretty much all there is. Play normal maps instead.

Again, thanks. I'll try a few MC strategies and let you know how they work.

[own3d0406]

Thanks for the idea, but I don't think it'll work. I'll have to start using mind control more often though.


I believe a korean pro coined the idea of using mass Dark Archons, as they always do.

Mass Dark Archons>tanks.

Basicaly, do whatever the hell you feel like, it's fastest map.

Ramble ramble ramble. Weeeee!

[Cpt.Chronic]

Mass Dark Archons>tanks.

idiots>you

[Black.Ice]

I believe a korean pro coined the idea of using mass Dark Archons, as they always do.

Mass Dark Archons>tanks.

Basicaly, do whatever the hell you feel like, it's fastest map.

Ramble ramble ramble. Weeeee!

That might work. Dark archons have such a strong attack. :rolleyes:

[adidas343]

DT's are nice, but you cant honestly expect me to get to DT's before he gets a bay and puts up a turret. DT's are about the same level as science vessels, and I'm sure he'll have them by now.

Nexus > Gateway > Cybernetics Core > Citadel > Templar Archives > 20 seconds for DT or whatever

CC > Rax > Engy Bay > Turret
or

CC > Rax > Factory > Starport > Sci Facility > 20 seconds for vessel or whatever.


dude even if he does get ebay he cant come out becuase he doesnt have detection. like i said, DTs can hold them at bay until they can get scan or like you suggested, Science vessels. Dude getting a science vessel takes way longer than getting DTs and untill he does get enough scan or vessels he wont be able to come out or in your cousin's case, he goes BCs right? so while your DTs are lurking in his base or w/e you can mass up your men and just go in with mass zealot/dragoons or whatever you use to kill people. I think you think of late game way too much bro. If i play your cousin I can end him at most 13 minutes.

[lammas]

I agree that dt is fine counter to fast push but it is possible to build ebay quickly and make 10 turrets into his push so that your dts wont get him back to his base and youll lose.

[own3d0406]

That might work. Dark archons have such a strong attack.

Eh, I meant use mind control "-_-"

[Black.Ice]

Eh, I meant use mind control "-_-"

haha, I know. We're all being way too sarcastic.

dude even if he does get ebay he cant come out becuase he doesnt have detection. like i said, DTs can hold them at bay until they can get scan or like you suggested, Science vessels. Dude getting a science vessel takes way longer than getting DTs and untill he does get enough scan or vessels he wont be able to come out or in your cousin's case, he goes BCs right? so while your DTs are lurking in his base or w/e you can mass up your men and just go in with mass zealot/dragoons or whatever you use to kill people. I think you think of late game way too much bro. If i play your cousin I can end him at most 13 minutes.

You're right about one thing, I'm worrying way too much about the late game. Like I said, I've beaten him plenty of times now (we're planning a whole bunch of games tonight, actually). I pretty much don't let him wall his sorry ass in, and overpower him.

On a really funny note, when I was Zerg, just to mess with him I did a quick burrow upgrade and burrowed lings around his choke. He thought the game glitched out, lol

[Black.Ice]

If I yell, "DONT PLAY NORMAL" maps will it have any effect on you? Probably not.

I play for fun, not to fit a societal norm where people shun fastest. If people don't like fastest, that's cool by me but I don't understand why people feel inclined to force their beliefs on other people. If a recreational gamer like me plays fastest, let me play. I'm not here to become an uber SC gosu, I'm just playing SC to kill some time.

(I'm not targeting you specifically. I actually do play regular maps once in a while, it just irks me when people tell me what to and not to do. hope ya understand, WI :) )

[lammas]

Liking fastest or normal is really just a matter of opinions and you cant argue about it. But a fact is that your opinion is wrong black.ice

[Ahzz]

fastest players spread the eevvviiiiilllll!!! They take noobs to the world of fastest where they'll stop playing sc after a year MAX and wont ever improve.
Also, I'm not talking about you really, but many fastest players over here start to give fastest advice to those doing normal maps, and its annoying to hear stuff like "make 30 turrets and mine lot of gas and make mass bc"

[Siege_Commander]

The same thing happened to me when i played my uncle. Letting him get to high tech(guard/devie) was the problem, but i found that valks were not as useless as i thought ^^

[blupp74]

The same thing happened to me when i played my uncle. Letting him get to high tech(guard/devie) was the problem, but i found that valks were not as useless as i thought ^^

If you have the resources and you're given the time to make mass valks, they can rock the hell out of Z air.
Watch out for those scourges though. And the defilers and hydras.

Just Devourers shouldn't be much of a problem, even in mass.
Just spread the valks out a bit, especially if he adds mutas to the mix.

And give your uncle a high five for playing starcraft. More old people to the game!! (So I don't feel so lonely....)

[Siege_Commander]

i already owned him alot :D and hes 24 :P

[blupp74]

i already owned him alot :D and hes 24 :P

Bah. I was hoping for someone a LITTLE older than that...

[Siege_Commander]

Well bluppy, kinda hard to find 33yr old men playing starcraft:P

[blupp74]

Well bluppy, kinda hard to find 33yr old men playing starcraft:P

That's because most men are sheep, and mindlessly conform to the "rules" of what an adult should be, ie not play computer games etc etc. And I will NEVER do that. I am who I am, and like what I like, regardless of age.

[Siege_Commander]

Ya know blupp, if my uncle wasnt as tall as he is or didnt have responsabilities..
He would be more of a kid than me :P

[blupp74]

Ya know blupp, if my uncle wasnt as tall as he is or didnt have responsabilities..
He would be more of a kid than me :P

Good for him then. That's the way it should be.
Just because I have a kid and take responsibility for my "grown up" things, doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to enjoy StarCraft, right?

(My GF think so, of course, but she's...well...wrong).

[Siege_Commander]

Everyone should enjoy what they want, but responsabilities is a bitch, along with time :<