Mineral and gas loan

[Broodling]

Do you think it's a nice idea a player being able to give mineral and gas to its allies?

[andman3000]

ya i all was think about that

[ares232]

That would be an interesting feature to have indeed. The only problem is of course, that comps could give eachother money as well, when they're being attacked. Imagine an enemy base without any workers but plenty of builidngs to train units, even if they can't harvest anymore they still can get resources from their allies.

[Catis]

All the more difficult and challenging right? I'd have no objection.

[SlickR]

yap, that would be quite good! It will bring a small new dimension to SCII

[Tenebrae]

I had this idea myself but you'd have to do so via a resource transporter. I'll explain...

Each race has a unit specified in the transportation of resources. These units are, in a way, like our armored cash trucks that deliver money to banks. They can only load resources from your main building, having to get into a small proximity near it till the option to load a specific amount of resources shows up. When you load the unit with the resources of your amount and/or choosing the unit then has to be sent to the allies main building. Upon getting into a relatively close proximity the funds are transferred to that player.

If an enemy destroys the transport before it reaches it's designation...the resources are littered upon the ground and need to be picked up. (gas sacked and mineral clusters)

[U-238]

That's a good idea and would mean harrass would have a whole new meaning.

However if just giving a player minerals without that would make the game harder for the people who may be winning to completly win. Lets say we're in a 2v2 and you and I are winning. We've taken out one player except for a hidden building. Now this means that player 1 can give all his resources to player 2 to help him out. Or on the flip side if you don't destroy all of an opponent (in a 2v2) he may be able to come back even if he only has 25 minerals because his ally can give him the cash he needs to restart.


Either way it would bring a whole new aspect into the game.

[SlickR]

I had this idea myself but you'd have to do so via a resource transporter. I'll explain...

Each race has a unit specified in the transportation of resources. These units are, in a way, like our armored cash trucks that deliver money to banks. They can only load resources from your main building, having to get into a small proximity near it till the option to load a specific amount of resources shows up. When you load the unit with the resources of your amount and/or choosing the unit then has to be sent to the allies main building. Upon getting into a relatively close proximity the funds are transferred to that player.

If an enemy destroys the transport before it reaches it's designation...the resources are littered upon the ground and need to be picked up. (gas sacked and mineral clusters)
well thats an interesting idea but too complex one. What if the delivery units are destroyed? -will you loose the resources, will you get them back, will the enemy take tham. and it's overall a slow process and it isn't much practical so i don't think it would be great in game like SCII

[InfinityComplex]

there's a game with the "trading" thing. it's extremely annoying to know that your enemy has no resources at all, but can still get men. plus if your playing with a computer ally or a picky human ally, they won't send you anything at all.

[Giantfish]

I've had allies that left me to die plenty of times. That doesn't mean team games are always annoying.

[Seal]

about all modern rtses have resource trading. sc2 will not be an exception.

[InfinityComplex]

I've had allies that left me to die plenty of times. That doesn't mean team games are always annoying.
Well, mostly in a game called Stronghold Crusader. And have computer players as allies. They don't do shit to help you.

[Broodling]

The case of a man playing with a computer ally is not a problem. The game could make the resources transactions avaliable only in games played only by humans.

[B.A.Baracus]

Zerg expo's powering Terran pushes sounds like fun to me:)

[Tenebrae]

well thats an interesting idea but too complex one. What if the delivery units are destroyed? -will you loose the resources, will you get them back, will the enemy take tham. and it's overall a slow process and it isn't much practical so i don't think it would be great in game like SCII


As I said,

When the unit that's carring the resources is destroyed, it leaves all the minerals and gas behind, you know those little things the workers carry?

Wouldn't be too hard to implement. Simply have the units be required to be within a specific radius around a CC, Nexus, or Hatchury till you obtain the option to transfer resources to the unit. You then take the unit to the allies CC, Nexus, or Hatchury and the funds are automatically transfered.

[B.A.Baracus]

As I said,

When the unit that's carring the resources is destroyed, it leaves all the minerals and gas behind, you know those little things the workers carry?

Thats how it used to work, but all the the left overs cluttered things up and strained the sprite limit.

[Tenebrae]

Thats how it used to work, but all the the left overs cluttered things up and strained the sprite limit.

You mean they actually had that idea?

Hmm...

Well then, destroy the minerals upon destruction of the unit...hell the gas would prolly explode anyway. Makes it more of a risk and requires a heavier defense upon transit.

[TheDriver]

I had this idea myself but you'd have to do so via a resource transporter. I'll explain...

Each race has a unit specified in the transportation of resources. These units are, in a way, like our armored cash trucks that deliver money to banks. They can only load resources from your main building, having to get into a small proximity near it till the option to load a specific amount of resources shows up. When you load the unit with the resources of your amount and/or choosing the unit then has to be sent to the allies main building. Upon getting into a relatively close proximity the funds are transferred to that player.

If an enemy destroys the transport before it reaches it's designation...the resources are littered upon the ground and need to be picked up. (gas sacked and mineral clusters)Perfect Man thats A Great Idea . Ive been having this idea for a while.

[TheDriver]

You Can place gas and mineral chunks using SCMDRAFT or any SCXE by the way

[IrishDutchman]

A zerg and a protoss working together would be a sight to see. Zerg expoing like mad, Toss massing carriers like mad! :D

seriously though, I think it would be a nice addition.

[Giantfish]

You mean they actually had that idea?

Hmm...

Well then, destroy the minerals upon destruction of the unit...hell the gas would prolly explode anyway. Makes it more of a risk and requires a heavier defense upon transit.

Blizzard originally made it so that workers carrying resources would drop them when they died. Those resources could then be stolen by enemy workers or recovered by your own workers.

[Magmaniac]

If the destroyed transports dropped minerals not like the ones that harvesters carry, but like the ones you harvest from, then I think it would be a good idea.
Well IDK actually, someone could build a bunch, put like one min and one vespine in each and blow them up in their choke to make a wall of mins and geysers.
Hmm...

[Infested_Zeratul]

Think of all the loop holes that can take place. For example, surrounding a zerg base with bunkers, using psionic storm on a bunch of miners, putting a Lurker between the HQ and minerals, or any way of preventing/draining enemy reasources. That would no longer work in 2v2+ games because your ally can give you all that resources...

Computer AI would become so much more harder and complicated.
Lol, what would happen if you were teamed with a computer ally? It's like, I would like to spawn my fifth drone, and when you click drone, your computer takes away 50 minerals and creates a probe for themself.

[Tenebrae]

Blizzard originally made it so that workers carrying resources would drop them when they died. Those resources could then be stolen by enemy workers or recovered by your own workers.

Interesting,

I did not know this.

If the destroyed transports dropped minerals not like the ones that harvesters carry, but like the ones you harvest from, then I think it would be a good idea.
Well IDK actually, someone could build a bunch, put like one min and one vespine in each and blow them up in their choke to make a wall of mins and geysers.
Hmm...

I disagree,

It'd be quite universalistic that mineral clusters and vespine geysers sprouted from already harvested minerals that are simply small chunks of crystal and packaged gas.

Due to the sprite limit, as someone pointed out, the unit should simply explode upon it's destruction resulting in a resource loss. This makes it that much more of a risk to perform such a transaction...and also will prompt a joint effort between the two players to protect it. The unit should also be both extremely slow moving as well as heavily armored, providing a safe transit, but plenty of time for an opposing player to stop the transaction by force...

Bring a whole new meaning to the term "raid" to Starcraft...

[Infested_Zeratul]

That 'extremely slow' and 'heavily armoured' unit better be able to transfer unlimited minerals and gas at a time and can fly, or else it'll be just as useless as an infested terran.

But you know what could be a cool strategy? Using those resource carriers as a distraction for computer players. If whoever destroyes the unit and gets all the minerals it's carrying and gets all it's minerals, then that would be so much more interesting.

oh yeah, another thing came to mind, for terrans, they should have a new building in their technological tree, "recycling plant". in SCII, all mechanical units should have remains (and they better make goliaths and seige tanks inorganic >.>), you can get an SCV, collect the scraps and send it to the recycling plant, if your front lines is a battle frield, you can have SCVs running around picking up carrier bits and collect minerals ^^. For every unit you recycle, you get 75% of it's minerals and gas back once recycled.
Good deal eh?

[Tenebrae]

That 'extremely slow' and 'heavily armoured' unit better be able to transfer unlimited minerals and gas at a time and can fly, or else it'll be just as useless as an infested terran.

Apparently you haven't been able to use Infested Terrans much have ya? They can be extremely effective in dispatching defenses. Anyway, unlimited minerals yes, but no flying...have to give the enemy a chance/decent time to destroy it. Keep in mind that most players won't notice one unit on their screen or be searching for these transports often...so it's not THAT bad.

But you know what could be a cool strategy? Using those resource carriers as a distraction for computer players. If whoever destroyes the unit and gets all the minerals it's carrying and gets all it's minerals, then that would be so much more interesting.

I suppose the resources could automatically go to the enemy if they destroy the unit...but most likely that would be exploited...a player would simply send his unit to your base to destroy it to get the resources instead of having to have them transported to his base...

oh yeah, another thing came to mind, for terrans, they should have a new building in their technological tree, "recycling plant". in SCII, all mechanical units should have remains (and they better make goliaths and seige tanks inorganic >.>), you can get an SCV, collect the scraps and send it to the recycling plant, if your front lines is a battle frield, you can have SCVs running around picking up carrier bits and collect minerals ^^. For every unit you recycle, you get 75% of it's minerals and gas back once recycled.
Good deal eh?

Actually I do like that idea...

But the Goliath and Siege Tank have organic pilots...that's why they are counted as such. Doesn't mean that they can't leave scrap metal upon destruction though...the recycling plants can remove all the gore ;)

[Infested_Zeratul]

Hmm, i was always wonder while everytime I play as zergs, i feel so weak, because of the limited choices of attacking the enemy. My only air unit is mutas, guardians are too slow and devourers attack too slow, and in a battle of rushing, high costs are not something to look forward to. When i'm with ground units, i have to choose only from hydras and lings, lings get smoked by just a few seige tanks or zealots, so i have to choose either hydra or muta.
So i looked at the unit tree and i realised units in the tree are mostly useless: scourges, queens, overlords, defilers and infested terrans because they aren't frequently used for most situation, though plagues are pretty handy with enemy defence lines.

What do you use infested terrans for? They take a long time, they aren't very good at assaulting enemies unless they crowd a roll of missile turrets in one spot and they cost quite alot compared to what they can do.

The gore recycling is for the zergs, it's inhumane for terrans.

Keep in mind that most players won't notice one unit on their screen or be searching for these transports often...so it's not THAT bad.
Yeah, it's true, no one would stare at a screen for mineral carts.

[Tenebrae]

Hmm, i was always wonder while everytime I play as zergs, i feel so weak, because of the limited choices of attacking the enemy. My only air unit is mutas, guardians are too slow and devourers attack too slow, and in a battle of rushing, high costs are not something to look forward to. When i'm with ground units, i have to choose only from hydras and lings, lings get smoked by just a few seige tanks or zealots, so i have to choose either hydra or muta.

So i looked at the unit tree and i realised units in the tree are mostly useless: scourges, queens, overlords, defilers and infested terrans because they aren't frequently used for most situation, though plagues are pretty handy with enemy defence lines.

What do you use infested terrans for? They take a long time, they aren't very good at assaulting enemies unless they crowd a roll of missile turrets in one spot and they cost quite alot compared to what they can do.

Well,

Zerg units are rather specifically designed.
I don't rush wish Zerg, which may seem odd to some but the Zerg can be used for large devastating armies.

For ground...

Upgrade your Hydralisks fully along with your Ultralisks and send them into a base, typically they will do a great deal of damage.
Zerglings are AWESOME when upgraded fully.

You can use them as scouts due to there speed...burrow some near your base entrance a bit out further (if enclosed). That way you'll have scouts out and able to see if enemy tanks are going into siege mode to assult your base entrence...then unburrow and attack. The tanks are usually bunched together and can not attack them in siege mode.

Another excellent Zergling attack is to make as many as you can, maxed on upgrades and enhancements. Load every single one into overloads...fly into an enemy base as quickly as possible and unload...you'll see a wave of destruction slowly form from under your overloads. You'll prolly loose a few in the rush into the base...but this massive army is very cheap...so you can already be working on a better one as they wreak chaos on the enemy base. They destroy buildings quickly...

As for air units...Devos and Guards are your friend I assure you...
Hot key a group of 12 guards and then hot key a group of 12 devos. You then preformed inchworm tactics...

Slowly move the guards up, then move the devos up right after them. Always move the Devos up first seeing as how they are faster and can withdraw from ground defenses quickly...luring the enemy right into your guardian squad. If you encounter ships and no ground...leave the devos to take them out before progressing the guards...if you get a mixture of both leave the devoes there and slowly bring up the guards...they'll take out the ground.

It's a little time consuming...but fiddling around with this technique is very effective...

You can take a group of guardians and assult base defense...and when they come with their ships, slowly retreat the guards just out of their range and bring the devos in. They will be more worried about the devos destroying their units then the guards, now out of range, assaulting their defenses defended by the devos.

The Zerg can be extremely powerful if you know how to use them properly. I never played any other race haha...more then once or twice of course.

The gore recycling is for the zergs, it's inhumane for terrans.

No no haha, I meant that they would scrape the gore off at the recycling plant...just some sick humor ;)


Yeah, it's true, no one would stare at a screen for mineral carts.

Yupe ;)

I would...most wouldn't...but I'm a prick like that.

[Infested_Zeratul]

Devourers and Guardians are like my final fall of hammer, unless in large money maps, I end up using basically more than half of all the minerals I can possibly get to creat like an swarm of 12-24 guard/devo each and if that gets mutilated... i'm basically screwed.

Upgrades lings can devastate yes, but late game battles tend to take place in the air.

omg, it's like a strategy discussion now.

Does anyone think that there will be a third type of resource in SCII?

[TheDriver]

The mineral recycling is a good idea. and ive hot an idea for toss recyling you can have a scrap warper thats removes scraps. and gives money. And for zerg it would be cool if you could plate your static defences and scourges with the metal which would increase the damage it does. as for 3rd money probably not.

[Infested_Zeratul]

=(
Though I brought up the topic of 3rd minerals, I disagree with that idea too, we are putting too much newer expectations, and that might totally screw up the game.

Oh zergs can have this new building which researches swarm abilities like "spawning mitosis evolution" which speeds up all building and unit creations, "burrowing" no explanation needed, and then the last one: "put in appropriate name here" which allows every zerg unit to be able to come upon a dead unit (including your own), change it's cell coding into growth mode (a type of cell which just grows but doesn't have a specific function unlike brain cells) and it attaches that dead thing into itself gaining health, and if it's mechanical, it gains a shield (that doesn't heal).

[Giantfish]

Hmm, i was always wonder while everytime I play as zergs, i feel so weak, because of the limited choices of attacking the enemy. My only air unit is mutas, guardians are too slow and devourers attack too slow, and in a battle of rushing, high costs are not something to look forward to. When i'm with ground units, i have to choose only from hydras and lings, lings get smoked by just a few seige tanks or zealots, so i have to choose either hydra or muta.
So i looked at the unit tree and i realised units in the tree are mostly useless: scourges, queens, overlords, defilers and infested terrans because they aren't frequently used for most situation, though plagues are pretty handy with enemy defence lines.

What do you use infested terrans for? They take a long time, they aren't very good at assaulting enemies unless they crowd a roll of missile turrets in one spot and they cost quite alot compared to what they can do.

The gore recycling is for the zergs, it's inhumane for terrans.


Yeah, it's true, no one would stare at a screen for mineral carts.

Overlords are useless? They're your supply depots, transports, and detectors. How are they useless?

And defilers with dark swarm can help a lot against air.

[Infested_Zeratul]

Yes, but they are an excuse to the zergs saying "we do not have limited variety of units in our unit tree". In the other races, you have buildings to do that.

Dark swarm is just as useless as scourges, only for specific types of air units. But of course, you still need them

[TheDriver]

Yes, but they are an excuse to the zergs saying "we do not have limited variety of units in our unit tree". In the other races, you have buildings to do that.

Dark swarm is just as useless as scourges, only for specific types of air units. But of course, you still need them
I agree with that.

[Giantfish]

What are units other than the mutalisk deals splash damage for air to ground attacks?

[Infested_Zeratul]

What does that mean? If you mean an air unit that attacks ground units and deals splash damage, then mutas are the only one.

[SolidSamurai]

Nah, it attacks with CHAIN damage and requires a swarm of em... costing roughly up to just under 10000 minerals and a little less then around 7000 gas to actually land a devastating attack with them.

And even then, they can be countered with a handful of frigs. :D

[Primeshooter]

I think it wud make tha game, a little more easy for noobs to get good.

[Dayoh]

You would think it would have been in SC already.

[lluke7]

i think u can always ddo that. You have to go to campaign editor and do some complicated work. I'm not a pro at making maps but i know that u can give money if u make a certain map.

[MidnightGladius]

Nah, it attacks with CHAIN damage and requires a swarm of em... costing roughly up to just under 10000 minerals and a little less then around 7000 gas to actually land a devastating attack with them.

And even then, they can be countered with a handful of frigs. :D

Mutalisks cost 100/100. So you're saying it would take between 70-100 mutas to attack effectively? Right... lol

Yes, but they are an excuse to the zergs saying "we do not have limited variety of units in our unit tree". In the other races, you have buildings to do that.

Then how do you counter DTs when attacking? You have to use ovies for that, unless you intend on building a chain of spores that lead to your opponent's base :/

Dark swarm is just as useless as scourges, only for specific types of air units. But of course, you still need them

Remind me: how do you break a late-game Terran's army? From the above statement, you probably don't. DS with lurk/ling or ultra/ling is the only possible way, short of sheer mass numbers, that Z army can beat T army cost for cost. Massed firepower of tanks and M&M is just too much, otherwise.

Also, in ZvZ, if you went early lings instead of fast tech and couldn't break their base, then you almost have to go scourge to counter their first few mutas.

-------------------

As to the trading thing, I agree with Tenebrae's concept of an armored truck. Killing them should cause damage based on the resources within (minerals cause concussive damage and vespene explosive), and they must be brought to enemy halls to complete the transaction.

Or, T could use that idea, P could have to establish a warp link (build one at your nexus, the other at the other player's hall) which also transfers resources without the risk, but much more slowly. The warp link would also be pretty high-tech and expensive.

Z could load any of their ground units near a hatch/lair/hive with resources until an upper limit; the amount loaded on them reduces their move and attack speed. Killing these would also result in an explosion.

Thoughts?

[McNewgin]

I like that a lot, thought it would prolly be challenging to program in the spped adjustments and stuff for amount of resources.

[MidnightGladius]

Thus we have playtesters, balancers, and a lot of hair-pulling :)

[code176]

Well... it would be good and bad. Like many people have said, an enemy can make units even without and minerals or gas, but it works two ways. What if you are being attacked and need minerals? You could ask your teammate to give you some resources and make some units.
For me, i would like it.

YAY MY FIRST POST!

[Infested_Zeratul]

Triggers can do anything other than make hybrid mods out of thin air.

Yes, if you have a beacon, it can be labeled "100 min transporter" or "100 gas transporter", every time you put an scv there, the scv gets moved off the beacon and "takes 100 min off player 1" and "add 100 min to player 2" and "display text message for player 2: player one gave you 100 minerals"

[HeroicRaptor]

Why not just do it exactly like how WC3 does? I think that's perfect.

[MidnightGladius]

Because that takes all the fun out of it :D

With guaranted transport (albeit with a fee), one would no longer have the ability to raid/stop supply lines, which would be much less fun overall.

[KidSephy]

Personally, the idea of raiding supply lines would own- it would also open up new avenues of of attack. Maps would be built thusly, and a lot of them (read as Lost Temple v5.245345312332432*) would have supply lines of almost guarenteed saftey- meaning higher ground more than likely. Only by dropped units and holding these lines could a victory be that much easier. That'd make the game so much more strategic.

Also- if anyone just kept borrowing minerals as opposed to building their own units to farm, they'd be a fucking idiot. Who would just be like 'keep lending me gas- I can almost make another goon!'.

The idea would be give minerals so they can pop out another farmer. The only issue with the transporter idea is that the only real time someone would need minerals is for a complete rebuild, and you guys detail you need a main host to transport the minerals to. IE no Command Center, no extra minerals.


-KS

[TheDriver]

Player: 4 [/COLOR]
Condition's :
Player ' " brings 1 Terran Scv to Give Minerals
Actions: modify resources add 100 minerals
Preserve Trigger

OK that was like taking candy from a baby, but putting it into a TC or SC2 by being "Built in" now that would be hard.

[ei47]

yea i think trading resources would be pretty cool, but it'd have to be a unit, or someone could live almost indefinetly. If it dies, resources should spill out, and be picked up by workers or another transport. One bug i can think of would be for the protoss, and using an arbiter to warp them across far areas.

[Tenebrae]

yea i think trading resources would be pretty cool, but it'd have to be a unit, or someone could live almost indefinetly. If it dies, resources should spill out, and be picked up by workers or another transport. One bug i can think of would be for the protoss, and using an arbiter to warp them across far areas.

Just make them an invalid target for warping...problem solved :P

[Infested_Zeratul]

Hmmm, make them eye piercing, maximum sized, pretty quick speed though, and are not burrow/cloakable.

Each takes up 4 supplies, and if you're protoss, halluncinate them 10 times before you go anywhere :D

[Giantfish]

Arbiters recalling resource transports wouldn't be a bug, it's a tactic. Walling stops melee units from getting to your guys but that's not a bug.

Besides, I don't think it will be that big of a problem either. By the time someone is building arbiters, everyone probably already has a pretty good economy going.

[Seal]

wtf, seriously
all the recent games have INSTANT and UNINTERRUPTABLE resource tribute, and poses no problem to game balance.
sc2 doesnt need this hassle.

[Zenox]

I agree with you seal Money making should be a challenge for players and a reason to venture out of their bases to find other ressources when needed and expand their bases.

[Infested_Zeratul]

It should be like an air craft for emergancy situations, you should only be able to carry a very limited amount of resources, so like you're owned to the core and all you have is a hatchery at the corner of the map and 3 minerals and 2 gas, or you're base is defensless with carriers upon it and you have a builder on the other side of the map but has 399 or 299 minerals and 9752672 gas =D

If you're using this to make money... that's pretty retarded. And believe me, your allies aren't rich people either who will give you enough resources to support both their own and your base. It's only like a backup option to save your ally who may come back with a counterstrike. Yeay CS :D

SC, meet CS

[Dragonboyjgh]

Just make them an invalid target for warping...problem solvedyeah just say it'd corrupt the cargo. i say it's a great idea :)

[generaljimmy]

not really because U mined all thise minerals n gas n u just give it away but like some other kid said trading men 4 supples or one ally could mine gas n one minerals n they trade liek that