God: On a related note...

[Evangielis]

Assuming Schrodinger's Cat theory to be true and that an unobserved event does not resolve into a final state of being until it is observed...

If Satan sent God a watch for His birthday, would it kill Him?

Just something for your brain to munch on...

[pixels]

Depends. What is Schrodinger's Cat theory?

[Evangielis]

http://www.phobe.com/s_cat/s_cat.html

This is a good explaination.

[pixels]

The question is does it matter? If the watch is in a box, does it still keep time within that box? Time will continue to flow outside the box, as long as there is an observer. Whos to say God doesnt have a sense of time anyway. Decay will still occur wether you're there or not; if you dig up a grave the body's condition is not of that when you buried it.

If god existed, and he had a watch, I dont think it would kill him (assuming he could be killed by such a science).

If that made no sense, ignore it, I'm not sure if I understand this whole thing anyway :)

[Battlecruiser]

Wow, this is weird. I don't even understand how the god is related to the cat theory.

[Nuts]

Assuming Schrodinger's Cat theory to be true and that an unobserved event does not resolve into a final state of being until it is observed...

If Satan sent God a watch for His birthday, would it kill Him?


The passage of time could be purely a human experience and could even be yet another example of Schrodinger's Cat theory in and of iteself. That we accept time at face value could be based on the fact that we haven't yet seen the alternative reality. This theory is very similar to the often quoted "if a tree falls in the forest, and nobody is present, does it make a sound?"

But as Pixels mentioned, who is to say that time would have any affect upon God in the least. I believe you are assuming that God is only eternal based on the lack of passing time, which may or may not be correct, we shall never know.

Of course, being an atheist, I don't believe in such an existence anyway, so this entire theory is rather moot in my opinion.

[Carnage]

If you stop believe in time and I mean really stop believing in time... you'll stop aging.

<snicker>

[Ender]

It is the same thing as "If a tree falls in a forest with no one to hear it, does it still make sound?"

The answer to that is, of course, yes. It still makes vibrations, and vibrations rae sound. End of story.

Of course, some people refuse to accept this, because they are morons. I just hate stupid people.

[Evangielis]

Actually, Schrodinger's cat had very little to do with the question. Mostly it was about the idea of Science vs. Religion. I recently had an arguement with a friend of mine that Science was a form of religion, even though its goals were generally secular.

It is my _fervent belief_ ;) that Science has all the trappings needed to become a religion. It has devout followers, a strongly entrenched dogma, oppositional sects and is taking responsibility for miracles worldwide.

Thoughts on that?

[OboeGuru]

In an unconventional sense, I suppose most of those statements are true, but taking responsibility for miracles? That's a bit of a stretch. Science more or less explains the reasons why extraordinary stuff isn't a miracle.

[Evangielis]

Medical science teaches us how to bring people back to life up to five minutes after their _heart_ has stopped.

We've developed weapons that we drop from the sky that can annihilate entire cities in raging firestorms.

That doesn't seem miraculous to you?

[TranquilNightElf]

Miracles are only miracles to the uninitiated..once you understand precisely how a thing works, it becomes but a thing to understand.
It all depends on the scale of things that your mind in its present state can handle.
That way if a person would be in a situation to possess all knowledge and have his/her mind open to every time and every science and the combinations therin and subsequently be in a position to dissesc, analyze and thus gain information out of them..he would infact become God of the 'religion' science.

[Battlecruiser]

Medical science teaches us how to bring people back to life up to five minutes after their _heart_ has stopped.

We've developed weapons that we drop from the sky that can annihilate entire cities in raging firestorms.

That doesn't seem miraculous to you?
If I answered your question it would be an opinion. Opinions aren't facts and therefore you can't deem anything miraculous in which it is correct.

[Evangielis]

Miracle

n 1: any amazing or wonderful occurrence 2: a marvellous event manifesting a supernatural act of God

Source (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=00-database-info&db=wn): WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University
Now I know that supernatural merely refers to the idea of something unexplained by science, but realistically a lot of things that are done with science can only be explained to someone else with concurrent scientific knowledge. Otherwise the average person is as clueless as old-fashioned Catholic layman.

[TranquilNightElf]

Precisely my point. The more learned a person is the less miracles he would seem to see.

[EdvardMunch]

I like David Hume's definition of a miracle: "A miracle is a violation of the laws of nature" (In "Against Miracles") To scientists, I'm sure they don't see what they do as miraculous, and that's because they know how it is within the laws of nature.

[Battlecruiser]

They closest thing to a miracle in science is phenomenon.

[KesTrel]

Evil force is a ridciulous theory. People make choices and manage to be evil all by themselfs. Leaders may create such an evil force as a scape goat for mistakes made, obvious things wrong that happen or for what will happen.

This so called evil force is a creation of man. Belifs dont change established laws of the universe. A river will still flow to its sorce even if billions of people were led or by choice belived it did not.

[hammocksleeper]

Sorry, I still don't get how giving a watch to God would make him die. I am familiar with all those theories and such, yet I fail to see the connection.

[Battlecruiser]

Sorry, I still don't get how giving a watch to God would make him die. I am familiar with all those theories and such, yet I fail to see the connection.
Same here. But the creator of the thread said this in a post after.
Actually, Schrodinger's cat had very little to do with the question. Mostly it was about the idea of Science vs. Religion. I recently had an arguement with a friend of mine that Science was a form of religion, even though its goals were generally secular.

It is my _fervent belief_ ;) that Science has all the trappings needed to become a religion. It has devout followers, a strongly entrenched dogma, oppositional sects and is taking responsibility for miracles worldwide.

Thoughts on that?
Make more sense?

[hammocksleeper]

Make more sense?
Okay, but the question was, "If Satan sent God a watch for His birthday, would it kill Him?" which makes absolutely NO sense.

[Battlecruiser]

Yeah I was thinking the same but then again I am not christian so I thought it must be somewhere in that bible.

[Evangielis]

Well from a holistic perspective it might make more sense.

Think of it this way. For God, who is omnipotent, thought no doubt becomes reality. One could argue that owning a timepiece subjects a person to the rules of the passage of time. Thus the question becomes, "In the end who triumphs?" God who is an inherently religious being or the watch, which is a scientific device.

[Nuts]

Is it not convievable that God and science could co-exist?

Accept the unknown.

[hammocksleeper]

Well from a holistic perspective it might make more sense.

Think of it this way. For God, who is omnipotent, thought no doubt becomes reality. One could argue that owning a timepiece subjects a person to the rules of the passage of time. Thus the question becomes, "In the end who triumphs?" God who is an inherently religious being or the watch, which is a scientific device.OK. It seems a bit of a stretch, to assume that thought becomes reality. Anyways while the question seems poor, I think I understand the issue that surrounds it, which is really what this is about, isn't it?

A watch is a device bound by scientific theory because it was created according to those bounds. Time itself is a part of Creation, and knows no bounds.

What is science? Real science is a system created by man based on observations. It seems an extreme aversion to faith is at the heart of science, although this quality is not entirely true, and in fact deceptively disloyal to the notion of science: most, if not all, in science is contingent on the fundamental identities outlined by mathematics. There is a reason that things like Heisenberg's work really throws a wrench into common "truths."

However science will always remain a slave to faith, and the unknown. Who is to say that there is nothing else besides what is explained by science? God did whatever he wanted to do, and with science we are simply shaping theory around that probably slim portion of the universe that we know and observe. Science is not an autonomous, independent entity. It cannot exist without what was here before it. That is, the watch is merely a reaction to time.

[Kahuzal]

Schrodinger's Cat: If Satan sent God a watch for His birthday, would it kill Him?

It's just funny.... I read a book on it at a very young age... it made more sense at that time for some reason. I highly doubt that this theory could ever actually happen. It's theologicly based on the notion that beings capable of observation are all-powerful. It becomes an "I can't see you so you can't see me" situation.

[KesTrel]

In an unconventional sense, I suppose most of those statements are true, but taking responsibility for miracles? That's a bit of a stretch. Science more or less explains the reasons why extraordinary stuff isn't a miracle.
There are effectivly no maricles in the universe. Only understanding.

[singo]

Didnt scrodinger make up the cat thing to take the piss?

aparrently, lots of people wrote papers about how the cat can be half dead and half alive at the same time until they worked out he was having a laugh.

i think he was trying to point out how people take theories too seriously.

[zemagicmaster]

this is an old thread, but its really cool. im only 13, but i feel i understand these theories ;) ppl call me crazy. till they see me on the street lol. k anyway... if you cant observe something it cant be in its "final form" rright? thats why the universe is endless; ass we see more we thin kof more and we thin kthat maybe there might be something over there and poof its there. but thats only i it really exisdted right? other wise the world would be anarchy. things we cant imagine can happen, but what im trying to say is that the universe is like a starcraft or warcraft map. if you go somewhere and go away, the fog of war is like instability; you dont know whats happening and when you go back you can see whats happeining and it stabilizes from what had happened.(enemy troops, dragons/critters passing through) is this explaining the schw/e's cat theory the right way? im confused but eager to learn.

[Seraph_Knight]

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[Scauthra]

I want to add!

Does God have a God? If not, how did God get here without it's God?

[Carnage]

God was, is, and always will be.

[Scauthra]

God was, is, and always will be.

Did he create himself too? ^_^

[singo]

We've developed weapons that we drop from the sky that can annihilate entire cities in raging firestorms.

That doesn't seem miraculous to you?yep, just because its not nice doesnt mean its not miraculous

if someone is saved by a freak chain of coincedences then its a miracle, but if someone is KILLED by a freak chain of accidents (the oil spilled just there, the safety fence broken just there) then it must also be a miracle, just because its not nice doesnt mean its not miraculous.


also, schrodinger invented the cat theory to take the piss out of the way quantum mechanics was taken over the top by people

[zemagicmaster]

heres a little offensive thinking on my part. i do not think gods exists; god is like magic. it a fabrication of human minds to relax themselfs. i feel people should believe in god, because it drastically makes them better people!; i dont have a problem with people thinking "He" is there... i just feel god is for the weak who need to be guided like sheep cos they cant think for themselves. if you want to believe something, you will, no matter what poeple tell you. thats why shamans and crap werent challenged ( their authority) ... cos ppl were afraid of a god or gods.... which the shaman or shamans forefathers created. it pretty ,uch makes the chief leader a puppet. the shamans word is law and thats it. the church is god for people, but i feel it is corrupt on the whole. where does their money go? to make more people christian? ofr what? to make more people christian? etc. and meanwhile, the heads of church are reaping in like .5% of what? BILLIONS( of dollars/ ponds w/e). ive think i overstepped myself. hope i dont realy make any enemies with this post... i just need to expres my feelings somewhere:)

[Valjean]

Did he create himself too? ^_^
2 membranes collide in the 11th dimension, with several bumps and wrinkles hitting the each membrane surface. Each hit caused matter and energy, at least in this universe. The matter and energy formed and created God. God creates everything else from himself and little bits of energy and matter that didn't form. God also wields the physics of our universe to his will and sets into motion other scientific principles for our own planet (such as evolution) and took the role of many a god until he was able to set into motion christianity.

Heh. Theisim and M Theory. This is why I never think there will be any proof to confirm or deny the existance of God. All we have right now is belief and opinion along with our still young/small knowledge of the universe.

[Scauthra]

The matter and energy formed and created God.

So what is he then? A sphere of matter and energy? A eldery human male with a long white beard and a robe? A giant hand?

[Seraph_Knight]

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[Moser]

Where the hell is Satan planning to get this watch? haha. Sorry, just my thought on the first post.

Anyways, about this whole God thing, here I go: I grew up in a Christian household and went to a Catholic School where we went to church every Friday. I also went every Sunday. Anyways, I always used to believe in God, Jesus, everything I read from the Bible, and the like. However, it wasn't until I came to Warboards that I actually started to question my faith and God's existance.

So now that I am older, and understand alot more, I honestly do not believe in God anymore. It just makes more and more sence that he doesn't exist. I mean, there's no proof that he is real and no proof that he's not real. Same goes for Jesus.

In my opinion, the Church is just there to give people hope, and something to actually live for. It's also just another way to keep peace in the world. Hell is just something the Church likes to scare us with and Heaven is just a "reward." They arn't real.

With this in mind, I basically refuse to go to church now and listen to the loads of crap they love to put into people's minds, so that "we will all be good people and seek our eternal reward." No --Deffinatly not for me. When I am forced to go I just sit there and basically stare blankly at things and flip though the hymnal (sp?) book and look at names of songs and see if I can make a funny sentance out of the names on those pages. It just isn't the same as it ever was.. Thank God.

Anyways, I am rambling now, and alot of the shit I just said doesn't even make much sence I don't think. So whatever, just thought I'd let my opinions out because I have had them in the back of my mind ever since.. well, for a long time. :P

[Valjean]

A sphere of matter and energy?
Maybe not a sphere. We were supposed to be created in his image, right? Maybe he's shaped like a man. I mean, what are we anyway? Energy and matter, right? Yeah.

Of course, this is just my thoughts on if God exists (I don't think he exists but I still like to ponder these sorts of things).

[singo]

In my opinion, the Church is just there to give people hope, and something to actually live for. It's also just another way to keep peace in the world. Hell is just something the Church likes to scare us with and Heaven is just a "reward." They arn't real.


which is a good thing.

is it me or do all these "god threads" end up exactly the same?

so, to forestall a question i KNOW is gonna come up then yes, a lot of bad things have been done in the name of religion but lots of bad things have been done in the name of freedom


even if god doesnt exist, if you live by the commandments (most of them) then you cannot go far wrong in life.

[BogoJoker]

This is my first post in ANY intellectual forum. I did my best to read through this forum and some related material (the cat link). I must say it is a pleasure reading some these topics and your posts. This forum seems to be a great place so far. I hope I can challenge some of you and learn a lot from this. On to the topics.

Is it not conceivable that God and science could co-exist?

Accept the unknown.

I sure hope so. God did not just leave us with the Bible (I am a Christian but feel free to use any other religious articles) to trust in his existence. We find out every day through science that there must be a God. I will try to show you later on.



i do not think gods exists; god is like magic. it a fabrication of human minds to relax themselves.

and



Heh. Theisim and M Theory. This is why I never think there will be any proof to confirm or deny the existence of God. All we have right now is belief and opinion along with our still young/small knowledge of the universe.

God must exist. A creator must exist. Let me try as best I can to prove this:



DNA is made up of proteins and ribonucleic acids and such. Which are made up of molecules, which are made up of atoms. Assuming that there is no God and these atoms exist, when the atoms are put together they are nothing but a clump of atoms. God created the code. He created the laws that define when these atoms are put together, they form this molecule, which exhibits these properties. You should see where I am going with this. Every law that man discovers, through science, is a law that proves God exists.



That last sentence was a little touchy to type. I would like to see if you see the same thing I see. Nothing would happen if God didn’t define these laws. I am aspiring to be a computer programmer. I played computer games which had integrated human like physics (quake, doom, any 1st person shooter). The concept I want you to see is that the programmer created the laws inside the game. Otherwise the game’s objects would not have any meaning or the like.



With everything I have witnessed, heard, and experienced, there would have to be a God, as there is just too much to chalk up solely to coincidence.

In any case, as I tell all atheists I talk religion to, if you believe the earth, and all the stars and planets, were created by absolute and pure coincidence, or atoms of non-existance coming together for no apparent reason, I would say you would make a better religion-goer than you think, for you already have a great amount of faith-or ignorance, but according to some atheists I have talked to, the two are the same thing.

I think that is exactly what God wants. As I said before, the more we learn, the more we believe there must be a God.



O and for the creation of God as energy in the 11th dimension. You may be onto something. I am unfamiliar with the String theory but the same coding, the same rules must have been defined by something. The creator of the Strings may have defined laws that when 2 strings rub together….


That concludes this lengthy post! Thanks for listening

[hammocksleeper]

DNA is made up of proteins and ribonucleic acids and such. Which are made up of molecules, which are made up of atoms. Assuming that there is no God and these atoms exist, when the atoms are put together they are nothing but a clump of atoms. God created the code. He created the laws that define when these atoms are put together, they form this molecule, which exhibits these properties. You should see where I am going with this. Every law that man discovers, through science, is a law that proves God exists.
Yeah, I understand what you're saying, and I hope others do too. But I have to hit the hay, I'll think more on it later.

[T-Dawg]

basically, to answer the question: no.

Fenguin posted somewhere that time is finite, because "time" is only relavent to a particle after it is so big, so he had some period in which time was non existent, as such God is beyond time. IFF god exists.

[Seraph_Knight]

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