Protoss, here I come! (Maybe...) [Archive]

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blupp74

10-12-2006, 4:02 AM

I've been playing with the idea of switching to Protoss. Or atleast playing Protoss more than before. So far I've decided I do better vs P as P myself. Against T I guess I'm kinda equal (but my TvZ is way better than my PvZ).
Anyways, with this in mind, I now seek some P tutoring. I expect Alexis to help some, but all others are welcome to assist too.

Here's the BO I use, generally. Probes made continiously.

8 Pylon, scout with pylon-probe.
9 Gateway
If Z or scouting T with no wall or P with dual gates, I make a second gate.
Otherwise gas at ~11 psi, then cy-core as soon as gate is warped.

After that it varies so much (which is one of the bigger problems I'm facing as P...there are so many options). If I play T, there's really not much variation. All buildings are used to some extent. it's just a question of which buildings I build more of. Startport is needed, whether I go wraith, dropship or vessel. Factory is needed, whichever race I face.

But with protoss...well, I guess most buildings are needed, it's just a question of WHEN.

I've seen many P FE. What should I look for when I scout, to decide if this is safe to do, or not? Obviously a 9 pool Z or double gate P is probably gonna rush in some way, and FE is not good then. But otherwise? Do I start off with cannons if I FE? Or are zealots better protection?

Until someone *cough* alexis *cough* can assist me in game, I'd really appreciate some advice.

DragonPraetor

10-12-2006, 6:13 AM

Another terran to the dark side...

Good luck with it... And remember to build lots of pylons early on, you need like 50 to wall your base with, otherwise you lose. :D

blupp74

10-12-2006, 6:27 AM

Another terran to the dark side...

Good luck with it... And remember to build lots of pylons early on, you need like 50 to wall your base with, otherwise you lose. :D

Thaaaaaanks...
I wonder what I would do without your completely invaluable advice.
(Probably win a game here and there).

I still think P is a minority on WB. And it's not like I've completely abandoned T or anything. Just trying P out, see how it fits.

(Speaking of many pylons early on, I was actually in a 2v2 game where my ally started out making a pylon. Then another pylon. Then another pylon. Then a forge and a gateway. All these 5 buildings started warping within 20 seconds from eachother, so he saved up a lot of minerals.
Just before his gateway finished warping, a lone zealot entered his base, at which time he took all his probes to attack the zealot, and I left the game).

Alexisonfire

10-12-2006, 7:04 AM

blupp74

10-12-2006, 7:15 AM

i can't tell u how to play on the forums i'm just not good at talking about sc or theorys behind it. i tend to just be able to play so i'll help on bnet after school on week days. ur +1 time i think so thats 21:00 ur time i will be home around

21:00 is usually when I'm able to get on, so that works perfectly for me.
You're the bestest Alexisonfire I've ever met on WB!

WickedImposter

10-12-2006, 8:41 AM

BLUPP NOOOO. dont go to the darkside. and remember, when a terran player goes metal, mass probes ;)

trust me. me and sharp are teh pwnzor at toss. listen to us, and youll win 100% games.

blupp74

10-12-2006, 9:08 AM

BLUPP NOOOO. dont go to the darkside. and remember, when a terran player goes metal, mass probes ;)

trust me. me and sharp are teh pwnzor at toss. listen to us, and youll win 100% games.

Hehe...was that you? Then I DID gundam you, and pwnd you completely with it!! HAHAHAHA!!!

Seriously, though....HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

No, seriously....

.....HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

(I just can't stop...)

ShadeZ

10-12-2006, 9:57 AM

I unno how to play toss well but I learnt from this guy called kirby that scouts can't be beat and he says he can beat july so he cant be wrong can he?

blupp74

10-12-2006, 10:16 AM

I unno how to play toss well but I learnt from this guy called kirby that scouts can't be beat and he says he can beat july so he cant be wrong can he?

Kirby...isn't that the other guy that boxer tutored? After ilov?
I haven't seen him in action, but I hear his mass arbiter rush is as deadly as they come.

WickedImposter

10-12-2006, 10:34 AM

lammas

10-12-2006, 10:39 AM

Dont go toss. Such an ugly race.

blupp74

10-12-2006, 10:43 AM

Dont go toss. Such an ugly race.

Well...I don't really feel I'm getting anywhere with T. I've passed the noob stage and entered the "somewhat medium" stage, and can't seem to get out.
I do ok against Z, somewhat against T, and still suck completely against P.

Though I realized yesterday that as P, I completely suck against Z.
He was probably a better player than me in general, but I really had no clue what to do, which I would have as T. It didn't even occur to me to use Dark Archons/Maelstrom against his horde of lings and ultras.

...unless *someone* were to help me improve my T play, that is...

blupp74

10-12-2006, 10:45 AM

lol. i note the sarcasm. and blupp i dont believe ive played you tvp. must have been *gasp* and imposter! so are you actually switching to p blupp?

your BO is pretty standard. not and insult, just saying you got it right. normally i go 10 gate 11 gas. and ya, if you see a toss going double gate, you should use 2 zeals to wall ramp and have cannon at top. that usually works. and if you see terran no wallin you sohuld probably go zeals.

Right...maybe it was Nasty...don't remember.
And I know I got the BO right up to cy-core. It's after that...what's best for which scenario...that I haven't gotten a grasp of yet.

I don't know if I'm switching for real. Right now I'm just trying P out.
If nothing else, it should help my TvP to learn P better...

blupp74

10-12-2006, 10:47 AM

Gee...."multi quote". What's that??

lammas

10-12-2006, 11:01 AM

...unless *someone* were to help me improve my T play, that is...

Helping doesnt take very far, I can tell you to have 50 higher apm and to make units faster but you still have to play those 500 games to be able to do it. Just play, have fun, safe replay of every single game you play and watch it and also watch every single replay they upload to ggnet (or if you want to go hc see everyrep they put to www.ygclan.com)

blupp74

10-12-2006, 11:05 AM

Helping doesnt take very far, I can tell you to have 50 higher apm and to make units faster but you still have to play those 500 games to be able to do it. Just play, have fun, safe replay of every single game you play and watch it and also watch every single replay they upload to ggnet (or if you want to go hc see everyrep they put to www.ygclan.com) (http://www.ygclan.com)[/quote)]

So, indirectly, you're telling me I'm quite decent and have correct BO's and an above shitty macro?
Why, I'll just take that as a compliment :)

...and go on playing my 500 games... :concern:

WickedImposter

10-12-2006, 12:52 PM

lol. lammys right. toss are so... ugly. and toss i think beats zerg easier than terran. i tihnk

IrishDutchman

10-12-2006, 12:58 PM

Right...maybe it was Nasty...don't remember

nope, you never gundammed me. You did, however, pwn me with pure tanks and turrets. -.- that was my first serious game ever with P though.

I pretty much am at the same level with toss as you, so I can't really help. I build my gate at 10, is that good or bad?

Cpt.Chronic

10-12-2006, 1:22 PM

Here's the BO I use, generally. Probes made continiously.

8 Pylon, scout with pylon-probe.
9 Gateway
If Z or scouting T with no wall or P with dual gates, I make a second gate.
Otherwise gas at ~11 psi, then cy-core as soon as gate is warped.
That won't work against a Terran because you won't know if he walls or not by 11 or 12 (I make gas on 12) psi unless you send out one of your first probes to scout, and if you do that, you might as well proxy double gateways. Another reason you don't double gateway vs. a terran is that with a little micro the terran can stop your attack and then you will be far behind and he can go vultures and own you due to the small amount of goons you'd have and no observers.

I've seen many P FE. What should I look for when I scout, to decide if this is safe to do, or not? Obviously a 9 pool Z or double gate P is probably gonna rush in some way, and FE is not good then. But otherwise? Do I start off with cannons if I FE? Or are zealots better protection?
FE can almost always be safely accomplished vs. Zerg as long as the map has the natural choke that leads to the main choke. For instance, it's harder to do on the map R-Point because cannons can't quite cover your ramp and your choke to your natural, whereas on a map like Arcadia or LT it's easier because of the small choke that leads to both your natural and main. Or if the natural is really close to the ramp like on Rush Hour, it's also easy because cannons can cover both areas.

To do it safely build your first pylon at your natural choke, then scout with that probe. Build a forge at the choke in a position that will allow it to protect a cannon (i.e. make the zergs run around it or thru the small gap b/n the pylon and forge to get to/past cannons). If the zerg 9 pools, put down a couple of cannons, then make the nexus. If he 11 pools into expo, you can put down 1 cannon, then expo. If he builds hatch before pool, then you can make nexus before cannons. If he does, say a 7 pool, then you will need to rally half your probes to your choke to help the cannon(s), you also may need to do this vs. a 9 pool or if he tries to quickly mass lings with any of the builds.

Toss FE vs. toss is probably the most dangerous and stupid FE in the entire game, and will lose you the game almost every time.

Alexisonfire

10-12-2006, 2:51 PM

yo blupp i suggest u go and just watch the people play at wcg @_@ after i went to the 2005 1 in brampton it changed my whole opinion about the game and in 1 night apm jumped from 100 to 130 (not spamming it just happens)

WickedImposter

10-12-2006, 7:55 PM

ya your scoutings a little off blupp. i normally scout(when playing toss) after ibuild the pylon, and if terran hasent finished wallin, i leave them with a, ahem, little gift ;)

Alexisonfire

10-12-2006, 7:59 PM

blupp is that a picture of leon?

WickedImposter

10-12-2006, 8:09 PM

leons his son? cause thats a very cute baby. hey blupp, maybe when he turns 4 you can start training him to be the swedish Slayers_Boxer

Alexisonfire

10-12-2006, 8:47 PM

can i have leons babies?

ShadeZ

10-12-2006, 9:29 PM

leons his son? cause thats a very cute baby. hey blupp, maybe when he turns 4 you can start training him to be the swedish Slayers_Boxer
The next slayers_`boxer` will have a computer in his mommys tummy and will be playin all day all night for those 9 months never sign off 1v1 each time by the time he's born he'll be better then ahzz.

btw he's cute :D

blupp74

10-13-2006, 1:31 AM

8 Pylon, scout with pylon-probe.
9 Gateway

ya your scoutings a little off blupp. i normally scout(when playing toss) after ibuild the pylon, and if terran hasent finished wallin, i leave them with a, ahem, little gift ;)

How is my scouting a little off? Or different from yours?

Btw, yes, it is my son, and yes, he is cute.
Doubt his mom will let me corrupt him to play SC though...

WickedImposter

10-13-2006, 8:37 AM

blupp74

10-13-2006, 8:55 AM

zomg. the females are so critical of video games. anyways blupp i think you said you scout at 10/11, but thats late. normally with toss you scout with probe after making 1st pylon. if you said that sorry then your scoutings alright. anyways thats a cute baby :)

No, as T I scout when I start building my rax, at 10/11 pop.
As P I scout with probe that makes pylon, at 8.

And yes, he is indeed cute. Though quite stupid so far. But I'll give him some more time.

WickedImposter

10-13-2006, 10:50 AM

LOL. how can you call a less than 1year old stupid. and blupp if you scout at 8 then its good. you need to be able to scout t before he builds wallin.

blupp74

10-13-2006, 11:02 AM

LOL. how can you call a less than 1year old stupid. and blupp if you scout at 8 then its good. you need to be able to scout t before he builds wallin.

For one, he claws at his own face and tears his own hair, then gets upset when it hurts. Less than 1 year or not, that's just plain stupid.

WickedImposter

10-13-2006, 1:18 PM

come on blupp. you cant blame a 1 year old for that. remember, you were a baby once too. we all did stupid things as babies. jsut ask your parents.

blupp74

11-06-2006, 2:44 AM

Well, my P is improving, if I may say so myself.
I recently (like, yesterday) managed to incorporate Maelstrom in my struggle against Z, and it was a very delightful experience. Though my Zealots were frozen too, being biological units. I think Dragoons are safe from this (being not biological units), but what about Archons? (I generally tend to have more Archons than Dragoons, but have only used Maelstrom this one game, and happened to have no Archons at the time).

So, are Archons affected by Maelstrom? And what about High Templars?

IrishDutchman

11-06-2006, 12:44 PM

Ahzz

11-06-2006, 12:53 PM

.... as a fellow noob I still expect you to have some sense and do how you should have done when playing zerg, watching replays and trying to figure out the basic idea. Duhhhh?

IrishDutchman

11-06-2006, 4:21 PM

.... as a fellow noob I still expect you to have some sense and do how you should have done when playing zerg, watching replays and trying to figure out the basic idea. Duhhhh?

Sorry Ahzz, don't hurt me. :(

heheh. :P

TheBlackAbyss

11-06-2006, 4:52 PM

Hmm... I never make archons, unless I have a spare HT or two. I really should use HT's more, but I usually find it easier to continue on the path I start. Bad habit, I guess.

For T, I've come to the conclusion that _MOST_ T's leave one flaw which the protoss can exploit mercilessly, whether it be they made too many vults at first, so get pwned by a few goons and an ob, or they have an unprotected main that is easily raided by HT's and reavers. In fact, I've taken out half a T's main with 2 reavers because he made it so everything was cutoff by depos, with a gap for the reavers. Bye bye supply.

And of course, my favourite, is the T that forgets detection.

But then there are T's who just... guh... cover EVERYTHING, and kill off all my attempts at freedom from a contain or push. Oh well. PvT is more outnumber and counter your opponents with the correct ratio of different units and a little micro.

blupp74

11-06-2006, 4:58 PM

Archons are weird, they aren't affected by anything at all. Not spawn broodling, irradiate, maelstrom, etc. I think psi storm, stasis field and EMP are the only thing that have effect...

HT's I'm not sure, possibly.

BTW, blupp, as a fellow Protoss noob. How do you deal with Terran? They just piss me off so bad.

Protoss feels way easier than Terran, if you ask me.
I still haven't found out how to handle early contain, but aside from that I just...mass, I guess. Get a good mix of goons, lots and templars (and obs, of course).
When the game allows, throw in a few arbiters too.
Still haven't started using zeal bombs, but maybe that day will come too.
(I assume upgraded shuttle speed is a must for this?)

Cpt.Chronic

11-06-2006, 5:15 PM

(I assume upgraded shuttle speed is a must for this?)
Not really, but of course it helps if they have golis or a bunch of turrets. You said you were having trouble with early contain...well, zealot bombs in combination with a a well timed attack can make short work of an early push.

WickedImposter

11-06-2006, 8:36 PM

blupp74

11-07-2006, 1:13 AM

ya. zealot bombs are good for when its early push, and they dont have much AA going. also, blupp, tvz you should be going more zealots than goons, and you sohuld use maelstrom/storm combo alot. its extremely effective against ultra ling.

I was talking about T early containment. You know, the vult/mine/tank/bunk/marine kind.
Guess I'll just have to stay in while I tech for shuttle.

...and I know perfectly well what to do against Z. It's just executing it that's another thing. But I'm getting there.

IrishDutchman

11-07-2006, 2:00 AM

blupp74

11-07-2006, 3:50 AM

I feel my best MU is PvP, but I have one question. I usually get speedlots fairly early, but I'm not sure how much they outweigh the need of dragoons.
I usually have a 2/3 speedlot-goon ratio, maybe 1/2. Is that OK? More goons? More lots?

BTW, it's also funny if people scout your citadel. They think you're DT rushing and start going berserk making cannons or wasting money getting to observers real fast. :D

If there is a ramp, I usually go 1 gate cy-core. If I feel defensive, I tech to observer and attack when the first one comes out (by then I have goon range, 2-3 gateways, 5-6 goons and maybe a few zealots). If I feel more aggressive I'll tech to DT's and bunk up with a few cannons (to not get DT'd myself).

This, of course, did not answer your question at all, except to say I don't go for fast speedlots at all, generally. Speed is only (well, almost only) good for range ( = his goons), and if i'm making goons myself, that's not really an issue. And I think DT's already move as fast as speedlots. So I generally hold of Zealot speed until I have excess money.

I never really count the ratio. When macro/microing, I think it's more important to make sure you're always making units. Simultaneosly deciding how many of which kind...well...that's a whole other level, and I'm far from there :)

I just go gateway+Z, gateway+Z, gateway+D, gateway+D, gateway+T etc as fast as possible. Only exception is if I'm told I have no gas, then it's Zealots all the way.

WickedImposter

11-07-2006, 8:09 PM

ya. zealots are pretty good goon counter. i would probably go with a 2/3 goon/zlot ratio.

IrishDutchman

11-08-2006, 9:23 AM

ya. zealots are pretty good goon counter. i would probably go with a 2/3 goon/zlot ratio.

Just not pure zealots. You'll get you're ass kicked, especially if they have range upgrade.

GroG

11-08-2006, 11:06 AM

Not true, pure speedzeal beats pure goons with range on open ground with flanking.

My general course of units in the game of game of PvP goes as follows:
slow zeal < goon < ranged goon < speedzeal < archon < ranged goon < storm

Also a few things to consider: Chokes (goons > most), flanking (zeals > most), free hits (like always having a few goons just to get free hits on microing zeals, thus getting the killing hit on them instead of them just microing them away),
tactical hits (having like 4 goons FF HT during a battle, or an archon, etc), damage soaking (If you are facing a mostly goon army, and have a lot of goons yourself, having a few zeals just to soak their fire is good, especially to get into position).

Also, map control is much easier with goons than zeals, and it's much easier to flee a battle vs zeals than vs goons.

A good mixture is always good, but honestly it depends on how you personally play.

WickedImposter

11-08-2006, 7:33 PM

ya. its all about your style. Its all about counters though. I mean, if theyre massing goons, a few speetlots helps around here and there.