How to prevent toss from taking map

[Cpt.Chronic]

Ok, basically this question is mainly geared towards lammy cause I know he has the most experience with fast expo, but anyone can feel free to answer...well, almost anyone (yes, that means don't try to give me advice TSOShadow).

Anyway, I seem to have a problem with allowing toss to take the map once I fast expo. FE makes my first attack come much later, cause it means I'm gonna need a bigger force to face his larger force, and by then he's already up at least one expo, then if he beats my first attack he'll be up by 2 expos and that's pretty much gg. I'm much better at a 2 factory or even 3 factory before expo build which allows me to constantly attack and harrass before his army gets to the size where I have to mass tanks. So yeah, I guess I'm looking for some advice on what to do after I FE to keep the toss in check.

[Alexisonfire]

1) practise with me
2) its common for toss to double fe when terran fe
3) provide replay (i don't know exact situation i'm not a terran player but if i c it from the toss side i'll notice things like wrong combination of units or pushing too soon/late)
4) i feel wrong giving advice to u cuz i'm not much better or even more likely worse

[Cpt.Chronic]

Hmm, well, I kinda play the same people a lot so the people that I lose to when doing fe I don't do it against any more. When I play random pubs they're not really all that good and can't take map control. Long story short...couldn't find a replay.

[Ahzz]

What I do, and what many good players seem to do after taking a fe, is that they wont even try to attack straigth with the first army. I personally, and many others I belive use my current army of tanks and vultures to take another expo. Then when I have enough of a army collected I attack, and maybe take another expoe etc. You know the rest

[lammas]

If you do macro well he should not be able to expand more than once more than you without getting himself into so huge disadventage that you can just walkover his army (depend on your opponents macro. If he is enought much better than you its diffrent). There are 3 things you can do after f e and two first work well against double exp third is better if he does second exp later.

1) timing push
2) drop haras
3) camping.

1) http://www.starcraft.org/strategies/StratsDB/Terran/4068
Its true that if you lose your army when he has done double expansion you are totally screwed. So you must know that will you win the battle before you attack, which is quite tricksy. But youll learn that after some tryes.
3) theres good guide at scorg http://www.starcraft.org/strategies/StratsDB/terran/3504. Dont know if its really written by nada but decent guide anyways.

Btw timing push works cause I have won many games on merchant ums with it.

[Cpt.Chronic]

I guess the fact that my macro is the worst part of my game leads to me not being able to effectively use a FE build vs. someone of equal/better skill. Too bad I can't macro like Oov (see link at bottom) or I'd FE every game. I have had the timing push used against me successfully when I double expo as toss vs. Terran, but I have never been able to do it myself....not sure why...maybe I'll try it and post a replay. How many tanks and how many vultures do you have before you move out....like 14 tanks and 18 vultures or what?

http://sc.gosugamers.net/replays.php?id=6847

[lammas]

heh i didnt even have to see the link to know it was the game vs boradori :D. But imo that replay doesnt even show well how crazy he is... see wcgkorea 06 game on gaia where he loses early exp and still allmost wins fucking julyzerg o,o

anyways did you read that timing push link? ~6tank 12 vulture is when you usually attack.

[Cpt.Chronic]

anyways did you read that timing push link? ~6tank 12 vulture is when you usually attack.
I glanced over it, but I don't really like reading strategies that tell every unit to build. It just gets tedious to read and it's not like I'm going to exactly remember it in as much detail as you wrote it. I think it would be more useful (and easier to read) if you would just say what you did above "~6 tank 12 vulture" instead of listing every unit and building that leads up to those 6 tanks and 12 vultures.

One thing that is confusing is that 6 tanks and 12 vultures would only be around ~80 supply not 100 (right?), which is the name of your strategy^^

[lammas]

Yes but there was text beside of exact build orders... i just thought that it would be kind of newbie friendly with them. You are not really supposed to remember every detail but you can first memorize (can you use that word in context like this btw?) most importnant things: f e, 4fac, 12vultu 6tank. Then whe you are able to do some kind of timingpush and you remember those things you can see more details to perfect it.

BTW I tried and result was: 14vultures 6tanks 6marines at 9:09, 100/100 ooa.

[Cpt.Chronic]

Cool, I'll try to get some TvP games tonight to try that out. And thanks for testing it for me so I know what type of timeframe I should have this force/supply in.

btw, what does ooa mean?

...and your use of "memorize" was correct.

[Ahzz]

ooa is like a smiley, where oo are the eyes I belive

[lammas]

a is like a hand scratshig its head, btw dont worry if it doesnt come at 9minutes, fastest i have ever been able to do it in real game has been like 9:30

[WickedImposter]

cool thajnks lammy. like most ppl ive had troubles knowing when and when not to push out.