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Sambo83
10-04-2006, 4:34 AM
Guide to ZvT by Neverborn

I will only be writing one ZvT guide, as I am a devout believer in this style being the most consistent at higher levels. This style takes a decent amount of skill, intuition, and practice to pull off correctly, and as there are plenty of resources for more elementary zvt openings I will not waste my time writing strats for newbies.

Purpose:

The purpose of this build is to maximize economy while minimizing risks to such "cheese" strats as proxy BBS.

Build Order

9 overlord
12 pool
12 hatchery (at expansion)
If opponent techs:
14 gas
if opponent 11/13 rax or especially 10/12 rax
16-17 hatch in main or at expo if at 6, then immediate gas after.

If you start at 12, put your second hatchery just below/to the side of the ramp and your third at your expansion.Now as at this point you have taken the economy route and are NOT in control of the game, you must respond to your opponent.

Early Game

vs Tech:
If your opponent walled off, use your initial lings as scouts and only make drones for now. Sending one ling periodically to his ramp to scout (and always maintaining another just outside out of his vision) is crucial to discovering what he is up to, as you have several vulnerable points and you cannot possibly protect them all and expect to win.

vs Early Wraiths:
If your zerglings see only a few (3-4 at the most) marines being made and no new ones in production, there is an extremely high chance that your opponent is wraith rushing. The only other thing that generally comes from this is fast tanks on your expansion cliff, but if he's stupid enough to do that you shouldn't have much trouble beating him. In any case, it is a possibility and we must cover that end as well. Even if you didn't 3 hatch, your spire will not be done in time to save all your overlords from the inbound wraiths. Since you will eventually switch to hydra later and you aren't worrying about keeping up with terran grount yet, just drop both a den and a spire, make 3-4 hydra, and wait for spire to finish to start making mutalisks. If your spire is nearing completion, you haven't seen any wraiths, and your scouting his ramp still reveals nothing, he's probably trying to put tanks on your cliff like a dumbass so drop one sunken by the edge and rape it with mutas when it shows up.

vs Tank Rush:
If your zerglings see academy units (or an academy) accompanied by slow marine production (i.e. 4-6 marines and medic(s) or firebat(s), he's obviously spending his money on something, and he's either hiding 3 rax m&m, fast m&m dropping, or tank rushing. Most of the time it's the latter, but in case it is the former you may want to suicide your other scouting overlord to find out since the counters to both are fairly different. If assured that he made an early factory make 24 or so speedlings, but don't let your opponent see them. The less firebats he makes the easier this is. If the tank comes out and you aren't sure you can take his army with a speedling flank (or burrow, if you were just that motivated), leave your army hidden and pop down a few sunks to slow him down and collect muta/speedling until you have enough to kill his entire army at once. The sunks should delay his tank(s) enough to build an army capable of doing this. If he leaves a tank or infantry unit unprotected use grouped mutalisks to snipe it. once the attack is dealt with, proceed to midgame.

vs one rax M&M drop:
Similar to the previous, make some speedlings and follow the dropship around when it gets to you. Since it can't unload on top of a dozen+ speedlings, he'll be forced to retreat in plenty of time for midgame. Often after this I'll skip mutalisks altogether and go straight into linglurker => hydralurker using the spire only for scourge.

vs Metal:
Very few people do this anymore, but it's not unheard of. If you see multiple facts, sunk a few times and block your ramp (in case of speedvultures), then start massing mutas when your spire finishes with +1 attack upgrade. If your opponent begins making valks switch to range/speed hydralisks and get upgrades for them, and make a few scourge for the valks to include in your first fight in the middle. Valks cost alot of minerals, so you do not have to worry about any excess of tanks. If he continues on land only, muta/hydra is more than sufficient to deal with any amount of goliaths. Throw in a few lings if you're feeling frisky, it's really not a hard strat to beat unless you get caught COMPLETELY unaware.

vs Two Rax:
Since you don't have to worry about anything except marines and medics coming through your choke for now, feel free to skip the zerglings (aside from your first 6) and make drones. Scout his ramp a few times as he may still be tank rushing, and you will need sunkens and/or speedlings to deal with that. If you see nothing but a pile of marines, power from all three hatches while teching to spire, not forgetting to block your ramp if it's exposed with a few lings (3 and 6 positions). once your spire is done, proceed to midgame and be happy the early game was so easy. Make sure you scout for some dumbass trick like a floating rax in your main or such.

Midgame

Collect your mutas until you have somewhere around 6, then go scout his main. If he happens to be playing aggressively and doesn't leave more than a few marines to defend his main, feel free to go gung ho on scvs while he frantically runs back to save his base. Speed really helps here, as keeping your mutas alive is extremely essential, but at the same time sitting at home collecting money is also going to get you killed. If you do see a bunker and/or turrets that are too much for your mutas to handle at this point, don't think you actually have to KILL anything with your mutas yet, the fact that he just spent 300 minerals clogging his base up with defensive shit is good enough. Fly around and see if you can't find a defenseless supply depot or scv building something, and try to kill it without engaging any force of m&m that you can't run over with ease.
Also if he sends a tank to your expansion it'll often spend much of the journey unprotected, so feel free to kill those as well. In fact, make sure you DO kill those as well.

Meanwhile don't forget to pump drones (or lings, if the little fucker has you contained) as well as research lurker at the den you should have built around the point you had 8-10 muta. If he commits to getting a tank or two to your expo and you can't kill it (and you should start this when you first get to his base if you see a factory/machine shop working), forget the lurkers and get a massive amount of +1 attack muta. HovZ in particular likes this, because he gets to call you a newbie after he gets raped with it. Since he probably won't have a rine upgrade, +1 mutas en masse have the ability to melt medium to large groups of unupgraded marines and medics. If he did the more common 3 rax with an upgrade (and possibly teching to sci) do the previously mentioned lurker switch.

As your lurkers are finished (and if you've been completely chased out of his main by now), hotkey them in a group next to your mutas, and keep them together. Use a ling or your scouting overlord to keep an eye on his ramp, and expo at least once (twice if he's playing defensively and expanding, since massing and trying to kill it as it lands is very risky and will get you killed very shortly if you don't succeed. After you are sure you can protect your new expos, throw down a couple evolution chambers and begin upgrading ranged attack and carapace. get hydra upgrades and start pumping hydralisks. If you lose your mutalisks in a fight as he tries to pressure you, don't worry too much, you don't need them. Make a few scourge and position your overlords to find a dropship leaving his base, and continue hydralurker production.

If you have enough of an advantage already at this point, feel free to get drop research and take the islands, or drop his base when he leaves to attack you.
If you end up with more lurkers than you absolutely need, put a couple at your expansions to protect against drops that you or your scourges miss. Continue expanding every time you win a fight in the middle, and if you lose one don't panic, just collect more units and hit his army again when it's vunerable. Remember that you always get to pick the place of the fight, so don't think you have to deal with it immediately if you are waiting for 6 more lurkers to morph somewhere.

Late Game

Zerg can handle losing an expansion or two, just stay in the game and rebuild what you lose. If you both make it to late game, you can get hive for darkswarm and/or ultraling, both of which are wonderful for breaking m&m&tank pushes into your expansions. Guardians are also very good when used with a little bit of ground support, as they do extreme amounts of damage to groups of m&m. By the time the terran reacts his army is often decimated, and you have free opportunity to expand again or mount a counterattack.

-Neverborn

blupp74
10-04-2006, 5:04 AM
Not being a Z player, this isn't very helpful to me. Still, it's usually very interesting to read well formulated guides.

What strikes me is that every guide is all "if you do this, and do it right, he CAN'T beat you!"..."perform this tactic correctly, and you'll ALWAYS win the battles". So I read a ZvT guide, like this...then move on to read a TvZ guide, where I see the same (but opposite, of course) things.

How do you see the "tank-on-cliff" being performed, if it gets raped by a sunken and a few mutas? (What's "a few" mutas anyway? The initial 6 used for harrass?). If the tank is placed out of reach of the sunk (it would have to re-siege to reach the rest of the expo, of course), and there was not one, but 2 dropships, with 1 tank, 3 medics and 9 marines? Or 8 marines and a turret-building SCV? (Though turret is more effective against T and P...)

lammas
10-04-2006, 5:07 AM
how to counter fast expansion?

Sambo83
10-04-2006, 5:13 AM
the sunk is there because his tanks can get there before ur mutas arrive.. he has to back up to get out of range of the sunken.. then move up blah blah.. by then ur mutas are there to rape it..

like i said in the other thread.. by the time u have 2 dropships, they'll get chased off by scourge.

And yes, if you follow that guide exactly, and never get tricked or make a mistake, you'll win.. that's the way starcraft works.. if you counter what ur opponent does correctly, don't make any micro mistakes, and don't get out-played, you win.

The goal of zerg in ZvT is to get to hive tech with a superior economy to the terran.. if you do that, you can make hive tech units and overrun his army.. the point of terran is to limit your economy, and eventually mass a force that can overrun your base. Whoever does his job the best, wins.

Sambo83
10-04-2006, 5:14 AM
how to counter fast expansion?
Neverborn used to like guard rush vs fast expo.. guess it isn't covered in his guide tho :P

lammas
10-04-2006, 5:47 AM
oh it wasnt ur guide thought that neverborn was ur aka or something ^^ dont know those oldskool stars so well

Sambo83
10-04-2006, 6:08 AM
ah yea.. neverborn was a buddy of mine, but he quit the game a while back.. top notch zerg

blupp74
10-04-2006, 7:00 AM
the sunk is there because his tanks can get there before ur mutas arrive.. he has to back up to get out of range of the sunken.. then move up blah blah.. by then ur mutas are there to rape it..

like i said in the other thread.. by the time u have 2 dropships, they'll get chased off by scourge.

I don't know exactly how long it takes to build a dropship, but I assume it's somewhere around 40 seconds. You mean to say that facing a good player, those 40 seconds will without a doubt mean he has several scourge guarding the cliff? I think even good players could be focusing on other things. I also think presence of scourges does not automatically mean the 2 dropships can't unload their cargo.


And yes, if you follow that guide exactly, and never get tricked or make a mistake, you'll win.. that's the way starcraft works.. if you counter what ur opponent does correctly, don't make any micro mistakes, and don't get out-played, you win.

The goal of zerg in ZvT is to get to hive tech with a superior economy to the terran.. if you do that, you can make hive tech units and overrun his army.. the point of terran is to limit your economy, and eventually mass a force that can overrun your base. Whoever does his job the best, wins.

So if that was the über ZvT guide, and there is an über TvZ guide...and both Z and T players follow their respective guides to the letter...who wins??

lammas
10-04-2006, 7:20 AM
So if that was the über ZvT guide, and there is an über TvZ guide...and both Z and T players follow their respective guides to the letter...who wins??

better player

Ahzz
10-04-2006, 7:23 AM
the better player. sigh. some newbs just don't understand it, they just think like that reading a guide totally reveals all the shit that this game consists and now they're totally gonna pwn.
It's not true, guides only give the direction and explain some things that might be unclear, its practise that does the shit. if there was two players who play games together on both win half of the games they play together. Then the other one reads some really good guide, and they play again. Ok, he might win but he still is only a little bit better.

blupp74
10-04-2006, 7:37 AM
the better player. sigh. some newbs just don't understand it, they just think like that reading a guide totally reveals all the shit that this game consists and now they're totally gonna pwn.
It's not true, guides only give the direction and explain some things that might be unclear, its practise that does the shit. if there was two players who play games together on both win half of the games they play together. Then the other one reads some really good guide, and they play again. Ok, he might win but he still is only a little bit better.

That was my point. A guide is just...well...a guide.
Following it to the letter does not mean an automatic win, even if you make no mistakes (ie don't follow the guide exactly).

GroG
10-04-2006, 11:03 AM
I find it funny that you post Neverborn's guide around here and BF and he doesn't just have it somewhere himself.

Anyways.. where is Neverborn these days? I don't think I've seen him since patch 1.12.

Sambo83
10-04-2006, 4:04 PM
when i posted it at BF it's cuz he was banned at the time and he sent it to me askin me to post it for him.. I posted it here of my own volition.. and i don't think he'd really mind since he hasn't played the game in years.

I think he did have it posted at Tsunami's strategy site himself while he was running that, but now i think that site is gone or something. No clue what he's doin now.. one day he just disappeared :P

GroG
10-04-2006, 5:35 PM
Nope, that site is still up, I looked at it the other day (in fact it's hosted by Redcloak I believe). Neverborn's build is on there, just not on the main page, the navigation links are incomplete on some pages and not on others.

What I'm trying to point out is that this is extremely outdated.

B.A.Baracus
10-04-2006, 5:42 PM
The guide is very helpful, and I was looking for a good mut-lurk guide for zvt. Although it could do without the snide cocky remarks.

edit
GroG this is outdated?? Is it still practical?

Sambo83
10-04-2006, 5:58 PM
It's not outdated at all lol... game balance hasn't changed since this guide was written. And yea when Neverborn was maintaining tsunami's site, redcloak was hosting it... anyone know who is maintaining it now, if anyone? or does it just sit there.

GroG
10-04-2006, 7:22 PM
No one is updating it.

The reason parts of it are outdated is because timings and strategies have evolved since this was originally made (somewhere around 2000 or 2001 I bet). Yes it's still practical, somewhat.

Terran walling in tvz? How often do you see that?
Fast wraiths tvz?
What about terran FE?

etc, etc. Can we ask Neverborn? No. Why? Cause he doesn't play anymore. And that's why this guide is outdated, because the author no longer plays and cannot update.

Sambo83
10-04-2006, 7:25 PM
terran walls off in tvz when he's going mech.. so that's how often you see it... pretty rarely, always has been..

I see wraith rush occasionally you usually don't see it in pubs though..

FE vs 12 pool? idk.. i haven't seen a terran FE against me at all really... usually they try some bullshit bunker rush

Cpt.Chronic
10-04-2006, 8:17 PM
I still wraith rush from time to time on certain maps. It's extremely micro-intensive and a very hard strat to pull off successfully, but it can work if done right. My apm is usually around 30-40 higher than my norm when I do this.

FE terran vs. zerg is pretty common nowadays though.

Ahzz
10-05-2006, 1:19 AM
yes, fe vs 12 pool works good as long as it isn't 14 cc. You still have a few marines when zerg comes and if you don't play around you'll have a few scvs at the ramp so you'll survive