Breaking Contains TvT

[own3d0406]

I just played my first game of SC in a month and geuss what? I got my ass handed to me:mad:

It was TvT and my opponent decides to park his tanks and goliaths right next to my choke and decides to send all of his units there as well. I couldn't seem to do anything, he had the upper hand since his tanks were already sieged and floating buildings to spot for my tanks didn't work since there were about 12 goliaths and 5 turrets.

Advice?

[blupp74]

I just played my first game of SC in a month and geuss what? I got my ass handed to me:mad:

It was TvT and my opponent decides to park his tanks and goliaths right next to my choke and decides to send all of his units there as well. I couldn't seem to do anything, he had the upper hand since his tanks were already sieged and floating buildings to spot for my tanks didn't work since there were about 12 goliaths and 5 turrets.

Advice?

Well, watch your choke. Build as fast as you can. Normal build you should have your tank at your choke faster than he can get them there.
But it's easy to say "don't let it get there". Sometimes it does anyway. What you could do is make dropships and attempt to drop his main, or use it to make another expansion. He tends to find those though, so the best advice IS "don't let it get there".

In TvT a tank/gol contain is usually gg.
(unless he's really bad at it and DOESN'T send more units to reinforce it).

[lammas]

You cannot allow him to contain your choke. If you do you lose the game. gg.

To make sure that he doesnt contain you like that you must scout and macro. He cannot have his first tank sieged before you have yours. Anyways I could help more if I would see the rep cause in tvt there are so many ways you can get contained that I would have to write tvt early game guide to go throught all of them.

[U-238]

But I thought you were writing a complete T guide for all of that! (as well as TvP and TvZ)

[GroG]

Yeah, whoever sieges their tanks first generally has a pretty big advantage, and sieging behind a choke is even huger. Best way to play is to
1. Preventing this from happening in the first place
2. Siege a bit out of range and just concede that area but not allowing any movement forward, and then play around it (droppers)
3. Avoiding it via another exit or dropships

A couple of tricks once you have a supply edge and you want to break a contain and move out (I'd recommend at least a 10 or 20 supply edge)..
1. Use vults or scv's to "soak" fire (just move them to tanks, don't worry about attack) while running tanks in behind and sieging quick, thus the first volley will be on the scv's/vults, saving you gas and good units, and in general just fucking up his units AI
2. Dropping units on his units (generally isn't an option w/ turret
3. Flanking his contain (requires dropship to "elevator" units)
4. Yamato

glgl

[WickedImposter]

lol. not so much the last one lol. but it does work, just that its extremely hard to get and hell have gols, so if you lose your bc thats 2 tanks worth gone.

[GroG]

You can't think of it as 1 unit v. 1 unit, you need to think of it as BC/tank vs. tank/gol or something. Yes, you can yamato tanks, but his gols will FF your BC, but then you can run your BC back towards your sieged tanks, and that beats his gols, etc etc.

Same with wraith/tank vs. tank/gol, and others. It's not just about the units, it's how you use them. And yamato just destroys a sieged tank.

[own3d0406]

Well, watch your choke. Build as fast as you can. Normal build you should have your tank at your choke faster than he can get them there.
But it's easy to say "don't let it get there". Sometimes it does anyway. What you could do is make dropships and attempt to drop his main, or use it to make another expansion. He tends to find those though, so the best advice IS "don't let it get there".

In TvT a tank/gol contain is usually gg.
(unless he's really bad at it and DOESN'T send more units to reinforce it).

Actually, he built his first factory in the middle of the map, then he built his second factiry a little closer to my choke, after he got a couple of tanks, he lifted off his factories and put them right next to my choke.

Grog, most of your strats needs dropships, but he had turrets and goliaths, so I don't think that would work, and by the time I have Yamato, he would've already moved in on my base, but I will try using scvs and vults to soak up the damage.

[WickedImposter]

i guess your right Grog. but im not sure bcs would be effective there, as he would probably out-resource you if your contained, and when your contained you need every resource possible. but then again, i cant think of something better

[ShadeZ]

You're pretty much dead at that point... if he outresources you plus makes it so you cannot expand what's the hope?

[own3d0406]

You're pretty much dead at that point... if he outresources you plus makes it so you cannot expand what's the hope?
Very encouraging there.

[blupp74]

Well, really...if you know the TvT BO, and your scouting doesn't inform you of a reason to do otherwise, your first tank should definetly be out before his tank reaches your choke. And you should definetly be able to siege it as defence for your choke, even if he has a factory in the middle of the map (but I really hate the middle-of-the-map-building-cheese). It doesn't cost many extra seconds to check the middle though. If you'd caught him he'd be forced to cancel the Factory, and his cheese would have put him behind by quite much.
(I know, not the easiest thing to think of...).

I try to incorporate these things in my BO though.
On LT I try to build my first depot near the edge of the cliff, to get a free view of the ground below, just incase he tries to cheese like that (lesson learned from playing a guy that cheesed me twice in a row - first with dual factories, then with dual rax).

[lammas]

why havent u post rep? If he made 2fac proxy your scout sees empty main and it is obius that he is making something cunning. If you see empty main check you own main base as he might have proxy facs there. If you dont find them scout everywhere. If you still cant find them press the panic button and make super safe play. pump tanks out of facs or fac and make ebay. Siege tanks to ramp to as soon as possible. If he makes it gundam style you have siege a lot earlier than he does. Now you just try to secure exp. put one or two tanks to ramp and send one down ramp. Siege it. Send scv to build turret there to spot mines. Note that if you cant take exp you are gg but if you can make massive dropping. He cannot defend whole map agaisnt your early drop and you can easyly either secure new expansion or kill his main.

And if I would have replay I would be actually able to help.

[WickedImposter]

ya. replay would help. but tvt, if he out-resources you your in a lot of trouble. well, when anyone out resources you any mu, your in trouble

[ShadeZ]

Very encouraging there.
Well it's the truth, more often then not at that point of the game the player who has that contain has allready finished the game.

[TSOShadow]

If it's a choke are you below or above him or even? you could attempt for high edges...

You could also try a reversal choke cover... basicly w8 4 units to walk through the choke and have bunkers and tanks ready to meet them... plus mines help...

once he came in like that a cloaked wraith group woulda don him in with the assitance of ground forces 1st... vultres probly best... maybe laying mines...

I would say defense matrix a bunch of your own tanks and move them up and siege... that your main window i think after golaiths came...

[own3d0406]

If it's a choke are you below or above him or even? you could attempt for high edges...

You could also try a reversal choke cover... basicly w8 4 units to walk through the choke and have bunkers and tanks ready to meet them... plus mines help...

once he came in like that a cloaked wraith group woulda don him in with the assitance of ground forces 1st... vultres probly best... maybe laying mines...

I would say defense matrix a bunch of your own tanks and move them up and siege... that your main window i think after golaiths came...
I was above, but that doesn't matter since I still had no way to see his units besides scanning.

I don't think reversal choke would work either. The whole purpose of the contain was to make it so that I couldn't expand, not to wait and attack me.

By the time I have matrix, he would have way more units than me, making it obsolete.

[WickedImposter]

ya. not many ppl use matrix alot tvt, and matrixes can only hold up to 260 damage, or 4 tank shots. assuming he contained well, he would also have supporting units, which would make it pretty useless. and ya, if you have time to tech sci vessals, hed probably still be pumping and youd be in trouble.

[TSOShadow]

Ok if your above how can your tanks not pwn him? your got terrain... should have atleast 1 bunk on choke... and a small mine field by time he got tanks... and if u were scouting you coulda set a few odd far spread mines at enemy base... (so scanner sweep cannont reaveal all and mor likely each one dose damage....)

it's one of the "don't let him get thier' as mentioned by another...

as for reversal choke it sometimes comes in handy for if u got base on lower side of choke...

And matrix was a final attempt... figured if he was that much all over you it musta atleast been approaching mid game wher u could use 1 tank 2 spot...

[own3d0406]

Ok if your above how can your tanks not pwn him? your got terrain... should have atleast 1 bunk on choke... and a small mine field by time he got tanks... and if u were scouting you coulda set a few odd far spread mines at enemy base... (so scanner sweep cannont reaveal all and mor likely each one dose damage....)

it's one of the "don't let him get thier' as mentioned by another...

as for reversal choke it sometimes comes in handy for if u got base on lower side of choke...

And matrix was a final attempt... figured if he was that much all over you it musta atleast been approaching mid game wher u could use 1 tank 2 spot...

Tanks have long range but only 7? sight, there was no way to see his tanks.
Okay, never make bunks TvT tank range>than bunkers and I don't even bother with mines that early TvT.

[TSOShadow]

Well i don't c how tanks can come this early in game unless it's rigged... (you said you couldn't see his tanks... how did you let him get them thier 1st with out seeing them? unless it's so early you don't have scouts or any sort of defense which is retarded...)

ANd how can you not see him if your on high ground? are you telling me you hav nothing look off your cliffs?

if so then it's your own fault for being over taken by his tact....

And y not make a bunk? thier only vulnerable if you leave them alone well into tanking part of game... and if thier is no mines...

And if that is what you do then once agine it's failure to use tact...

[own3d0406]

Well i don't c how tanks can come this early in game unless it's rigged... (you said you couldn't see his tanks... how did you let him get them thier 1st with out seeing them? unless it's so early you don't have scouts or any sort of defense which is retarded...)

ANd how can you not see him if your on high ground? are you telling me you hav nothing look off your cliffs?

if so then it's your own fault for being over taken by his tact....

And y not make a bunk? thier only vulnerable if you leave them alone well into tanking part of game... and if thier is no mines...

And if that is what you do then once agine it's failure to use tact...

XD did you just miss my post completely? Tanks come 14 scvs on a basic BO. I scouted on 10 so the only thing I saw at his base were scvs, a refinery, depots, rax, and a marine, of course his marine killed my scv before I saw him build his fact.

Let me explain this to you again, my tanks didn't have the sight range to see his tanks and floating a building would have been stupid since he had around 12 goliaths and 4 turrets.

:Sigh:Bunks have a shorter range than tanks, making them obsolete.

I was focusing on Tanks and goliaths rather than vults and mine, and an attack move would make mines useless.

Did you understand that? If you didn't I suggest you drop down to Kindergarden and learn how to read 1 fish 2 fish.

[TSOShadow]

I must of mis under stood... I thought that was appart of the assult....

Now what i like to know is how all ur scouts missed this... how he got 4 turrents and 12 golaiths with only 10 scv's and you had nothing defending you unless you didn't prepair for any rush witch turns to self failure once more...

bunkers r for rushs and scouts thus i recommend... but if you allow him to reach tanks b4 you then once agine self failure... (and it's ok if u d idn't know he was makeing that but once agine thats failure to scout the require info...)

Now I understand that (golaith/tanks) was what you were teching to so I dont under stand how someone who ditchs thier base and run across the land for your base reachs faster military strength then your own base which has been going no where...

it takes time to cross the land and to position troops and to make turrents... plus not seeing the lower side of your cliff and if floating a building was dumb y not scanner sweep? You are ignoreing all common sense and just saying... "I couldn't see him..." If he was so far outa sight range he wouldn't have been able to contain you...

[Cpt.Chronic]

I must of mis under stood...

That seems to be a common problem of yours.

BTW, misunderstood is one word, not three.

[TSOShadow]

U got the message that all that matters to me...

[blupp74]

I must of mis under stood... I thought that was appart of the assult....

Now what i like to know is how all ur scouts missed this... how he got 4 turrents and 12 golaiths with only 10 scv's and you had nothing defending you unless you didn't prepair for any rush witch turns to self failure once more...

bunkers r for rushs and scouts thus i recommend... but if you allow him to reach tanks b4 you then once agine self failure... (and it's ok if u d idn't know he was makeing that but once agine thats failure to scout the require info...)

Now I understand that (golaith/tanks) was what you were teching to so I dont under stand how someone who ditchs thier base and run across the land for your base reachs faster military strength then your own base which has been going no where...

it takes time to cross the land and to position troops and to make turrents... plus not seeing the lower side of your cliff and if floating a building was dumb y not scanner sweep? You are ignoreing all common sense and just saying... "I couldn't see him..." If he was so far outa sight range he wouldn't have been able to contain you...

First of all, if he built "defence" then he wouldn't reach tanks before his opponent. And scouting for containment seems obvious, but isn't always the easiest thing. There are plenty of things to keep track of. I guess it requires a certain amount of being contained before you put it on your list of things to check now and then.

And Owned, I don't see how tanks can come at 14 SCV's, unless you stop your SCV production. I start my factory at around 18-19 pop, and it's done when I have around 22-23 pop (estimating a bit from my head). Meanwhile I've pumped SCV's constantly (and maybe a single marine) and built supply depots.

The thing is, if your opponent has 2 tanks when you have 2 tanks, the difference being that his tanks are sieged below your choke, with a floating barracks to give sight, then you're going to have a hard time getting out of that spot. As soon as your tanks get in siege-range they will get blasted, before they can siege. And you can't really outnumber his tanks either, because he will send reinforcements.

TvT is much about who sieges first, and where. One way to get out of it is to stay at your main, and bunk up a shitload of dropships with tanks and goliaths, and then go kill his main. He shouldn't have too much defence there, since he has to reinforce the containment. But I wouldn't let it take too long, since he'll be doing other things than just containing. He could be working on a drop of his own, or expanding. If he's expanding I recommend going for his main anyway. He already has a strong economy (or rather, the mass of units that comes with the strong economy) if he's containing you, and expanding, so you'll want to get to his tech.

Maybe get some wraiths to kill his barracks (thus robbing him of his sight...though be careful, he might have scan, or send a dropship for sight...so don't automatically assume you can just roll up and siege just because the rax is gone) so he can't build new factories before rebuilding rax. That, along with a huge drop to his main, killing off as many factories/armories as you can (depending on how long you took to get here, there might not be any workers mining left).

But TvT containment is indeed tricky. Mass drop is usually the answer though.

[TSOShadow]

Well if he didn't scout him or missed him possably that's shit luck... simply failed to find him...

Also I did say how the he get tanks so early b4 he could even afford anything him self?
(else it was rigged or hacked... Which I wouldn't think he would be posting for and know when it happens...)

The thing is, if your opponent has 2 tanks when you have 2 tanks, the difference being that his tanks are sieged below your choke, with a floating barracks to give sight, then you're going to have a hard time getting out of that spot.

This is what dosen't make sense... how do you not have tanks on your cliffs keeping watch b4 he dose? He would still have to travel the diffrence while your tanks are already sigeing in position...

[lammas]

can we finally get that replay?

[TSOShadow]

None is required... it's common sense you can have units at a cliff that is boarding your base... faster then the enemy unless his boarder is your cliff...

[lammas]

Eh why do you think that my request for replay had anything to do with your post?

[TSOShadow]

Because logic would determine that the enemy would have to travel distance to reach your boarders which would mean you have mor units produced by time he arrives...

[blupp74]

Because logic would determine that the enemy would have to travel distance to reach your boarders which would mean you have mor units produced by time he arrives...

Yes, but if you read my post more carefully, you'll see that the point I'm making is that there are dozens of things to keep track of, and sometimes checking for that contain may just be one of the things that are missed.
And in that case, there are a limited number of things you can do to get out of that situation. Obviously he's not going to win a siege-tank battle if you're already there, sieged.

Then again, if you used your first two tanks to siege at the choke, on the cliff, and he used his two first tanks to siege them a bit further away, you're still contained, just not at your choke.

[own3d0406]

I don't have a replay, I forgot to save it -_-... I'm trying to explain the situation the best I can, and I meant to say factory comes at 14 (for me anyway)

[own3d0406]

I must of mis under stood... I thought that was appart of the assult....

Now what i like to know is how all ur scouts missed this... how he got 4 turrents and 12 golaiths with only 10 scv's and you had nothing defending you unless you didn't prepair for any rush witch turns to self failure once more...

bunkers r for rushs and scouts thus i recommend... but if you allow him to reach tanks b4 you then once agine self failure... (and it's ok if u d idn't know he was makeing that but once agine thats failure to scout the require info...)

Now I understand that (golaith/tanks) was what you were teching to so I dont under stand how someone who ditchs thier base and run across the land for your base reachs faster military strength then your own base which has been going no where...

it takes time to cross the land and to position troops and to make turrents... plus not seeing the lower side of your cliff and if floating a building was dumb y not scanner sweep? You are ignoreing all common sense and just saying... "I couldn't see him..." If he was so far outa sight range he wouldn't have been able to contain you...

Yes, you definitley mis under stood I did have scanner sweep, but that's only good for 4 times, then you have to wait for it to reload. You know what? I'm not going to explain this to you again, read my preivous posts in this thread and maybe you will get the picture.

[blupp74]

I don't have a replay, I forgot to save it -_-... I'm trying to explain the situation the best I can, and I meant to say factory comes at 14 (for me anyway)

Yeah, come to think of it, I do start my factory shortly after the 14 supply...maybe not at 14, maybe 15...but definetly not as late as 18...

[WickedImposter]

exactly. you should never let yourself be contained TvT.

EDIT: sry i was replaying to shadez replay a few pages earlier. still, you should never let yourself be contained.

[TSOShadow]

I did have scanner sweep, but that's only good for 4 times, then you have to wait for it to reload. You know what? I'm not going to explain this to you again, read my preivous posts in this thread and maybe you will get the picture.

I did not say scan the whole map...

And know how thiers many things to keep track of... But if you KNOW containment is a really a problem versus your own race y is it you would easily miss to have scouts or at least scan 1-2 times when u have the energy to spare out side far enough that a containment might threaten you...

And Thiers always room for error... I nvr said my stuff is fail safe...

[own3d0406]

I did not say scan the whole map...

And know how thiers many things to keep track of... But if you KNOW containment is a really a problem versus your own race y is it you would easily miss to have scouts or at least scan 1-2 times when u have the energy to spare out side far enough that a containment might threaten you...

And Thiers always room for error... I nvr said my stuff is fail safe...
I didn't say I scanned the whole map...

You seem to be missing the point of scanning here, it's not to scout, it was to have something spot for my tanks.

[own3d0406]

exactly. you should never let yourself be contained TvT.

EDIT: sry i was replaying to shadez replay a few pages earlier. still, you should never let yourself be contained.
Wow, thanks for your advice! I am now a gosu at not getting into contains.

[WickedImposter]

lol. anyways why use scan? if your doing tvt, screw scan just lift a building to spot. way easier. also, i normally og with 16 fac. 14s supply for me.

[own3d0406]

lol. anyways why use scan? if your doing tvt, screw scan just lift a building to spot. way easier. also, i normally og with 16 fac. 14s supply for me.
... I did say that there were too many goliaths and turretts to use a floating building, didn't I?

[WickedImposter]

ohh sorry if you did i forgot. anyways, if your going from higher ground you could slowly push your way out. but again, if tvt your contained, your screwed. thats why you sohudnt let him contain you. if you see him starting to push from center, set up a counter push from your choke. that should help. and if he trys to push right beneath your choke, you can always rush down with your force, and normally youd have a slight advantage number-wise and with higher ground