My ZvT needs analyzing

[Glordag]

So...I'm trying to go by what I've heard/been told/watched in replays for ZvT, but I'm having a HORRIBLE time with it. Check out a few of these replays where I played against blupp and tell me what you think. Basically, the whole MnM + tank thing is just killing me. Anything I send at it (lings + lurkers mainly) just dies instantly, even if the MnM + Tank force is decently small. Anybody know what I'm doing wrong?

Sorry, had first person replay on, so I had to compress them. Hope you have winrar or something :P

[U-238]

Well from playing you I know this: You micro needs improvment and by the time he's got a decent sized tank force you should either be muta harrassing or be on your way to darkswarm.

I'll look at the replays latter. (A little out of time right now:P)

[Glordag]

*nod nod* this is true, but I'm more referring to the beginning of the game, when you don't have a chance for dark swarm and if you went for lurkers you don't really have mutas. Basically, he has an MnM force and maybe 1-2 tanks, and is containing me. I try to run a force of zerglings + lurkers up to break the contain and I just get rocked.

But yes, you're right, my micro/macro both need work (:

So...I looked at a couple of those replays...and I figured out that I kept sending in my lurkers & lings separately, even though I tried to move them in as a group. That definitely makes a difference. I wonder if that could be my main problem?

[U-238]

If you're sending in your lings first then the lurks or vice versa you're going to get shredded like cheese. You need to move them together in one groupand then just use micro to select all the lurkers and burrow when you've gotten close enough to the tanks.

[TSOShadow]

Hydralisk may work better as they attk right away and only need to be microed so their up enough to all attk together...

You could try getting lurkers a bit quicker and burrowing them about the enemy base and if not then out side your own base...

I like to have some hydralisk or lings burrowed out side of my base to surprise any early rush groups trying to get in or out...

[U-238]

Hydralisk may work better as they attk right away and only need to be microed so their up enough to all attk together...


Lings are smaller thus a) harder to hit and b) take less damage from tanks. Lurks on the other hand take more damage up front but shred rines. Hydras do niether but instead turn into pretty little pools of blood.

You could try getting lurkers a bit quicker and burrowing them about the enemy base and if not then out side your own base...


By the time Z has lurkers T already has his ramp blocked anyhow and more than likely has tanks. The only way to get into his base is to break his ramp which isn't easy vs tanks.

I like to have some hydralisk or lings burrowed out side of my base to surprise any early rush groups trying to get in or out...

Burrowing is a waste of gas. You talk about getting lurkers earlier however now you're saying to spend 100 gas that could be used on a lair or lurk tech or even lurkers themselve to put the few lings you may have down your ramp?

[Sambo83]

Heh.. this is why I like to open muta vs T probably 95% of the time.. it's just safer.. u force him to stay in his base while u expand and by then you can have hydra/lurk or lurk/ling flanks setup before he moves out instead of ending up contained.

If u start with lurkers that's just one of hte many bs things that can happen .. to deal with it your lurk/ling control just has to be better. I usually try to send the lurkers like 3-4 seconds ahead of the ling so they don't all get raped while u try to burrow.

[U-238]

Yes but lings and lurks are slightly easier to mass and doing mutas requires more micro (at least in my experience).

[GroG]

Muta harass into muta-ling is 10x easier to execute than ling/lurk push, in my opinion.

[Glordag]

Yes but lings and lurks are slightly easier to mass and doing mutas requires more micro (at least in my experience).

I agree completely. When you go with mutas you A. Have to be confident enough in your defense/control of minimal ground units to keep safe while you utilize the mutas and B. Have to have good enough micro to keep those mutas alive and actually accomplish something. If they defend their base against air with a couple of turrets this isn't all so easy. Granted, the versatility and speed of the mutas is nice, but against an opponent with plenty of anti-air I think it requires more experience than the lurker/ling execution.

[IrishDutchman]

ZvT's a bitch ain't it?

Well, lurkerling used to work fine when I was still Z. You have to keep scouting though. The moment you see a starport, start teching to ultra/defiler. Science vessels will eat your lurkers alive without handy ultralisks to take damage or defilers to plague the shit out of the enemy tanks and infantry.
BTW, if you happen to have a spire, GET SCOURGE. Always have about 6 scourge to take out vessels. it's extremely useful.

[Sambo83]

The point of mutas is that they can't leave their base until they have enough troops to both defend their base and move out.. this gives u time to make lurker/ling or hydra/lurk and setup a flank in the center and expand.. this is much much easier to setup than STARTING with the lurker/ling and trying to move out of your choke while the terran force is there since u put no pressure on him while u were teching to lurk..

lurker first is definately the harder strategy.. riskier.. your advantage is you get lurkers (your primary midgame unit) much mroe quickly.. but you have to be able to a) move out of your base and b) handle harass (m and m drop, tanks on ur cliff etc) which is much harder with lurker first.

[Ahzz]

ofc it depends a little of the map, but lurkers isn't a worse tactic.
you just need to keep on making lurkers and some more lings with speed in the beginning, well not beginning but well yea. And if you do lurks and contain the t he cant move out anyways before he gets tanks or proper detection or something, and you can easily defend expoes by placing 1-2 lurkers there beforehand so even if he drops unexpectedly you'll still keep the exp.

In it's own way mutas are safer tho. If I want to go all out I go mutas, but I dunno if everyone got good enough micro and macro to do GOOD with them

[blupp74]

ofc it depends a little of the map, but lurkers isn't a worse tactic.
you just need to keep on making lurkers and some more lings with speed in the beginning, well not beginning but well yea. And if you do lurks and contain the t he cant move out anyways before he gets tanks or proper detection or something, and you can easily defend expoes by placing 1-2 lurkers there beforehand so even if he drops unexpectedly you'll still keep the exp.

In it's own way mutas are safer tho. If I want to go all out I go mutas, but I dunno if everyone got good enough micro and macro to do GOOD with them

When I face Z I always make tanks. If I don't have detection (scan is run dry) I send a lone marine out first (hoping they don't use the hold trick) before I move out.
As for 1-2 lurkers in expos, I always scan the expo before I drop. And 1 lurker (since they're usually on opposite sides of the hatch) won't stop 6 marines and 2 medics (if I only have one dropship), so I wouldn't say the expo is "safe" just because there are 2 lurks there. And if there are sunkens aswell, then I'll have atleast 2 dropships before I drop.

Personally, I hate and fear skilled muta harrass way more than I do lurkers.
With lurkers you only need a good force and detection. Mutas can hit and run in a way I haven't properly learned how to counter yet.

[U-238]

In it's own way mutas are safer tho. If I want to go all out I go mutas, but I dunno if everyone got good enough micro and macro to do GOOD with them

That's probably true of most people here that play Z. I know it's partialy true of me. I can micro the mutas well but then I end up falling down in macro or I can macro my ass off and then I'll forget the mutas. Allthough I know it's coming soon I've yet to find that perfect balance between the micoing of mutas and the macroing of my bases.

And the hardest thing I find with going all out on mutas is that as soon as the first 3-6 mutas make it out of their eggs T is on your doorstep with 1-2 tanks and a squad of tightly packed M&M. That really takes the air out of that attack plan.

[Glordag]

I know that I, personally, don't have the skill required to micro the mutas and macro my base. Think of it this way: if I'm having trouble breaking a contain with lurker/ling, there's no WAY I'll be able to properly micro mutas, lol. I like the idea of mutas more, but it's just harder to execute than it sounds. Plus, in the situation U-238 just mentioned, it's not so easy for me to handle that force at my doorstep. Otherwise, I'd agree that mutas are definitely way more effective against T early-game.

So, I haven't gotten a chance to play again yet, but when I do I'm gonna try a few different formations of lurker/ling and see what works. I'm guessing putting the lurkers in front of the lings and sending both out as a group at the same time will work, as the lings will end up just in front of the lurkers at the moment of attack. I shall see.

[B.A.Baracus]

Mut BO, whos got the mut BO?

[IrishDutchman]

That's probably true of most people here that play Z. I know it's partialy true of me. I can micro the mutas well but then I end up falling down in macro or I can macro my ass off and then I'll forget the mutas. Allthough I know it's coming soon I've yet to find that perfect balance between the micoing of mutas and the macroing of my bases.

I got a trick for that, it won't completely save your macro, but it definitely helps. It's quite simple actually, HOTKEY YOUR HATCHERIES.
When that's done, it's 1 + S + M, 2 + S + M, 3 + S + M every time you hear the unit complete thingie.
You might wanna put a rally point just oustide the enemy base, but that's up to you.

BTW, there is no connection between your...habits, and the hotkey for select larvae and mutalisks being SM. :P

[Sambo83]

ofc it depends a little of the map, but lurkers isn't a worse tactic.
The disadvantages ( easy to cheese, easy to contain, harder to garner a second expo) outweigh the advantages (faster lurker, your own cheese potential, faster transition to midgame) in high level play.. thus it's worse and harder to pull off.

And if there are sunkens aswell, then I'll have atleast 2 dropships before I drop.
If you have 2 dropships, regardless of your opponents opening, he's going to chase them away with scourge unless you just get lucky/he sucks.

And the hardest thing I find with going all out on mutas is that as soon as the first 3-6 mutas make it out of their eggs T is on your doorstep with 1-2 tanks and a squad of tightly packed M&M.

If you scout 4-5 marines with academy units, you know it's either going to be fast drop, or tank rush. The counter to both is speedlings! :) With your spire first build, just make 24-30 speedlings, and keep them hidden.. when his force arrives, rape it. Same thing if it's drop.. have you speedligns follow the dropship around till you can pop it.

If you scout more marines and slower tech, then sunk up.

I know that I, personally, don't have the skill required to micro the mutas and macro my base. Think of it this way: if I'm having trouble breaking a contain with lurker/ling, there's no WAY I'll be able to properly micro mutas, lol.
Why? It's hard to break a contain with lurker/ling when you get caught in your choke. Progamers lose games to that when they go lurk first. Muta first is the much safer build.

Anyhow, it's kinda stupid to say "well im not good enough to execute taht strategy so im not gunna do it" You should always learn the game on the highest level, not the newbie level. It's kinda like a terran player saying "well, im not good vs lurkers with m and m, so im going to go mass gol" It's pointless cuz he'll never get to the highest level of the game.. the way to do it is to make the m and m, lose hundreds of games and eventually learn to be good with it.

[blupp74]

If you have 2 dropships, regardless of your opponents opening, he's going to chase them away with scourge unless you just get lucky/he sucks.


Maybe I've gotten lucky, or faced sucky opponents then.
But there are people who don't tech spire until very very late, relying on lurk/ling pressure. (Maybe you mean they suck then, by definition?).

Regardless of scourge, you can't have them everywhere, all the time.
If I know of an expo, I not only scan the expo itself, but as much of the path there as I can. To see if there are mutas/scourge waiting for me (or any other land unit, if the path there is land).

[lammas]

I think (but ofc I know a shit about zerg cause iam not z player) what you do should depend on your opponents play. If he does 2rax tech muta isnt as good as lurk (but if he does fast push with 2rax its diffrent). If he does fast exp muta is better usually.

[Sambo83]

guard rush is awesome vs fast exp

Muta is still safer than lurk vs 2 rax.. but lurker is better vs 2 rax than it is vs fast push. This thread has inspired me to post neverborn's zvt guide!

[Glordag]

Why? It's hard to break a contain with lurker/ling when you get caught in your choke. Progamers lose games to that when they go lurk first. Muta first is the much safer build.

Anyhow, it's kinda stupid to say "well im not good enough to execute taht strategy so im not gunna do it" You should always learn the game on the highest level, not the newbie level. It's kinda like a terran player saying "well, im not good vs lurkers with m and m, so im going to go mass gol" It's pointless cuz he'll never get to the highest level of the game.. the way to do it is to make the m and m, lose hundreds of games and eventually learn to be good with it.

True, to a degree. The thing is, both lurker/ling and muta harass are used at the highest level. Pro gamers lose when using both. I claim that it's MUCH harder for me, personally, to execute muta harass properly than it is lurker/ling. There's just so much more going on, and it's much easier to COMPLETELY botch mutas as opposed to lurker/ling. Even if you mess up lurker ling initially there is room for forgiveness. That's not necessarily true with mutas. Perhaps trying muta harass more often could help with my micro/macro, though. That's probably a good point.

[Sambo83]

I don't agree with anything in ur post except the last two sentences.. no point in me quotin it all and repeatin myself.. you already saw what i think :P

GL with ur zvt :)

[ShadeZ]

Huh? You don't agree? I see pro players use lurker/ling more then I see them starting with mutas so how can you not agree with that?

[Sambo83]

almost every korean goes 9 pool speeds into muta into lurk/ling every game.

most good zerg open with some form of spire first almost every game.. i got no clue what ur talkin about. lurk first is like a trick strat they'll do to change up their game and be unpredictable.. or there's some players taht go lurk first because they've perfected that strategy and like it more for their own reasons.. it's definately not the more common strat at high levels of play.

[ShadeZ]

funny because 60% of the zvt replays I have the zerg opens with lurkerling...

[B.A.Baracus]

funny because 60% of the zvt replays I have the zerg opens with lurkerling...

Well you cant lurkerling in vanilla silly..