Terran problems

[splatt0r]

Ok, lately the toss have been causing me some problems when using terran, specially on early rushes.

If they just mass zeals, by the time I have 4 sieges 4 vults and 4 rines, they have like 14 zeals and some goons. I have really bad luck with scouting, and my scouting worker usually finds my opponent only after searching all other spawns.
If I wall, most of the zeals will get blasted, but they we'll leave me with fewer units. After this, they come with dts and goons :concern:

Should I just get vults with mines early? Should I get better scouting? Should I get turrets earlier?
Help plz :D

[lammas]

replay would be nice

[TSOShadow]

A move i've enjoyed doing is the incompelet supply bunk up..

say you got a choke wit room 4 maybe 3 supplys...

You leave 1 out of it with a slight gap so that they must sqeeze though... createing path finding collisions 4 some... and have the 1 bunk near the gap fill wit alot of firebat... dosen't have 2 be full but atleast 1 extra :p...

Tanks behind that work will... vulters I use for short range artillery and thier mines might help yea with alot of the ground forces ;) but try spreading them further out...

you may also try more medics with ur infantry :/...

range boost is handy and maybe stim... thou i hardly get to use it...

anyways try these things...

if no then try blocking off ur choke and drop ing outa ur base :/

[U-238]

A move i've enjoyed doing is the incompelet supply bunk up..

say you got a choke wit room 4 maybe 3 supplys...

You leave 1 out of it with a slight gap so that they must sqeeze though... createing path finding collisions 4 some... and have the 1 bunk near the gap fill wit alot of firebat... dosen't have 2 be full but atleast 1 extra :p...

Tanks behind that work will... vulters I use for short range artillery and thier mines might help yea with alot of the ground forces ;) but try spreading them further out...

you may also try more medics with ur infantry :/...

range boost is handy and maybe stim... thou i hardly get to use it...

anyways try these things...

if no then try blocking off ur choke and drop ing outa ur base :/

Ok... do not listen to anything he just said.


For early zealots you're going to want vultures yes. Don't worry so much about tanks if he's going mass zealots because they have explosive damage anyway. (Only does 50% damage vs. small units like zealots) Vultures deal 20 concussive damage. This means they’ll deal full damage to them. You'll only need 1 marine and use the rest of the minerals on vultures. Also don't be afraid to take some SCVs off your mineral line to help get in the way of the zealots so that they can't get to your vultures as easily. A wall will help and yes mines are a must. As for the DTs and goons you should be able to ward the zealots off with your vultures (with a little micro) and have turrets at the ready by the time his first DTs show up. After the first wave of zealots come at you then you can focus more on tanks. (But keep a steady supply of vultures coming too)

[Alexisonfire]

just wall keep sieged tanks and vults behind wall and if he attacks the wall just repair it with scvs use like 5 if u must it won't matter as for dts use turrets and mines

btw tsoshadow sucks and has no clue wat he speaks of idk what race he uses but i'm 100% sure he sux with all

[splatt0r]

thx all :D

[GroG]

Don't forget to expand..

Really, post a replay. Other than that, how are we supposed to help you? You probably have more problems than just picking the right units to beat his.

[kharaa]

not a terran player, but i've been playing this soo damn long..

Firebats if you mean they're attacking you at your base, always keep some firebats around with medics and marines, stim is a MUST. tanks hurt you as much as they do them, as they'll inevitably fire at the zealots which are melee range. mines are good.

all i can say is firebats to take care of the zealots, they'll stand up to a little pressure from the dragoons because the goon is ment to hit large targets, it does reduced damage on small. make sure medics are there for real!

[splatt0r]

not a terran player, but i've been playing this soo damn long..

Firebats if you mean they're attacking you at your base, always keep some firebats around with medics and marines, stim is a MUST. tanks hurt you as much as they do them, as they'll inevitably fire at the zealots which are melee range. mines are good.

all i can say is firebats to take care of the zealots, they'll stand up to a little pressure from the dragoons because the goon is ment to hit large targets, it does reduced damage on small. make sure medics are there for real!


I get no bio vs toss (maybe 4 rines max depending on the situations) and it seems I'm getting better already :P
The trick was just a bit mine microing and expoing earlier.

[Alexisonfire]

ya good don't get bio i'm glad u can pick out the good advice from the bad

i highly doubt people like kharaa or tsoshadow ever win so idk y they bother telling u how to play

[kharaa]

Alex, you've never met me, don't be so ignorant and arrogant, don't act like you know me or how i play, or how much I win, thanks.

he asked advice on how to deal with a zealot and goon rush, Firebats are a natural counter to the zealot, he also never mentions which map he plays.

Tactics can vary map to map.

back on topic: So if you get no bio(i'm assuming LT is your map) then i don't know what to tell you, maybe spider mines.

as i mentioned before terran is not my race, i play zerg.

[Cpt.Chronic]

kharaa, would you like the chance to prove him wrong? Play him 1v1.

hah, I love making challenges for other people...ok, ok, you could play me too. PM me if accept my challenge and we could arrange a time on b.net to play.

[Alexisonfire]

chronic i challenge to a bo1 rumble in the jungle of dalalia or w/e map u want

time: tomorrow (i got hw to do tonight)

[Cpt.Chronic]

ok, how bout tomorrow night around 8 pm central op swbk?

[kharaa]

Chronic, playing him 1v1 wouldn't do a thing, I never claimed to be better them him, or for him to be worse then me, he claimed people "like me" and another, probably never won a game.

I found the remark offensive, and ignorant.

[Alexisonfire]

i'm playing him cause we havn't played in maybe a year and while i'v gotten rusty hes improved a lot i bet so either he'll blow me away or could be interesting @_@

and by saying u never won a game i meant u just plain suck play matgeo.wb he'll be a bit more fun for u

[Cpt.Chronic]

Well, you've probably won against a noob, but I doubt you've won against anyone that actually knows how to play this game at even a medium skill level (which I consider myslef to be, and which I'm sure Alex was referring to) because even medium skill-leveled players know that you don't go firebats to stop a zealot rush because it will put you too far behind in mid-game when you're going to need mech units to be able to expo.

[Cpt.Chronic]

i'm playing him cause we havn't played in maybe a year and while i'v gotten rusty hes improved a lot i bet so either he'll blow me away or could be interesting @_@
Actually, I haven't been playing much lately, and when I do I play zerg and lose horribly.

[Alexisonfire]

still its been a while u never msg me anymore buddy =( ever since u left eoc and joined ss

[Cpt.Chronic]

What's your nick again? I'll add u to my f-list. Mine's Kratom[sS] in case you forgot.

[kharaa]

Well, you've probably won against a noob, but I doubt you've won against anyone that actually knows how to play this game at even a medium skill level (which I consider myslef to be, and which I'm sure Alex was referring to) because even medium skill-leveled players know that you don't go firebats to stop a zealot rush because it will put you too far behind in mid-game when you're going to need mech units to be able to expo.

that's only in low level resource maps, like LT or things like it, I play mainly the Hunters or BGH. it's two opposite ends of the spectrum, in LT and low money maps, you need to do alot of micro maneging, units and resources. because you have to make good with what you've got.

In maps like BGH, where Macro is more important, you don't have to worry about being "set back". You can claim one is superior then the other, but in reality it's not. try your micro tactics in a bgh map, and you'll get laughed out of the game, as a swarm of 200 hydras pwn you.

I won't proclaim to be any good at LT maps, or low money maps.

Never have said I was. however claiming only people who play like you guys do have any skill, makes me laugh pretty damn hard.

[Cpt.Chronic]

First off, Hunters is a low resource map just like LT.

Second off, noone ever talks about BGH or money maps here unless they specifically say that they are, so don't post tacticts about BGH when not a single person is talking about BGH.

And finally, your tactics suck even for BGH.

[Alexisonfire]

maps like bgh take less skill it seems easier to macro due to not having to expand as u stated u don't have to micro so u have more time to go bak and build units

also hunters/bgh is imbalanced so y bother only good for 3v3 or 4v4

[Sambo83]

lol.. 3 cheers for chronic :)

[kharaa]

you're right chronic the hunters is a low money map, but from years of playing bgh, it's not so much different.

I posted in response to the maker of this thread, that firebats with stim, with the support of marines and medics, would decimate a zealot hoard, this is tried true and tested.Not only do firebats do 16 damatge to everything in a line, when stimmed and having medics help them, with marines with uranium upgrade behind that. they don't stand a huge chance.

For bgh try explaining how my tactic(since i've only posted one in this thread) sucks? By rushing gas and your acad, you're not set back horribly. if at all, as minus marines, every races bread and butter unit is melee. firebats shred lings and lots, again tried and true.

I've mentioned a few times no terran isn't even my race, it's actually my worst played one.

Alex, it depends what you mean by less skill, sure it's not as mentally demanding to macro as it is to micro(playing lotrish maps you do learn to micro somewhat.) but that is far from accurate that you don't need to expand, when i play zerg, if i don't expand, i usually don't have the money to even compete in the game. you run in to someone who uses alot of magic like a toss user, they have maybe three.. reavers two high templar and a couple corsairs, and they can hold your ass off for a good long time.

It takes alot of resources to push through a base that is well defended, with only one base mining, it don't work so well.

to even make a SINGLE group of guardians, you realize it takes 4000 minerals and gas? .. OUCH.

I do alot of 2v2v2v2, sometimes 3v3.

skill is skill, it just depends in what you're skilled at, i can't micro to save my life in a lt map, but i sure can macro with a bit of micro in a bgh map.

edit: and as it being i'm new to the forums, give me a goddamn break lol. It doesn;t state ANYWHERE that all maps discussed are LT or low money unless otherwise stated. ;P

[ShadeZ]

Well, that is what we discuss, because the game of starcraft was intended for low money maps.

Now you know.

Firebats sure they're ok vs zealots but once he realizes you've built firebats a lightbulb should go off in his head to build dragoons and then tech to templar or reavers... infantry don't even stand a chance. There's all the money wasted. Really not worth it.

[kharaa]

Oh I agree completely shadez, once the toss player gets the idea he has bats. reavers will own or templar or whatever. you're 100 percent right, all i'm stating is firebats stimmed with medics and marines, is a very effective counter to zealots.

and about starcraft being designed for low money, BGH is a offical blizzard map too, it was designed for both styles of play imho.

Anywho i'm not saying you're wrong, but if they rush 2000 minerals worth of zealots and stuff. four to 6 firebats with medics and marines isn't that bad of a trade off really. they can be even more effective when bunkered, just no stim. anyhow i've made my point, and you guys have made yours. the author if the thread has already found the answer he was looking for.

[Sambo83]

the problem with all ur strategies kharaa.. firebats vs zealot.. lurkers vs mass ling, all seem logical in a perfect world. And yes, if you were playing a retard, or a computer that makes nothing but pure zealots, then you could mass firebat/medic.

But the problem with your strateges is that none of them work at all in a real game.. when you have 2 groups of firebats, then the toss starts pumping goons, you're GG'd.. likewise in the ZvZ when you make lurkers to deal with zerglign, you then have mutalisks coming at you.

[kharaa]

you've only read like one part of everything i've read havn't you sambo? Or did you read a goddamn thing i said at all? Seriously, I said a few firebats in CONJUNCTION WITH MARINES AND MEDICS WITH STIM, k? clear on that one, if you're able to defeat the zealot rush, hopefully you guys can multi-task and continue infrastructure while defending, you should be by now getting tanks? If not, you deserve to lose to dragoons? of course stimmed marines and firebats, can handle a few dragoons. dragoons do iirc half damage to a marine, 10 a shot, meds will have that all healed up before anything!

I pointed this out a NUMBER of goddamn times, you are all pretty good players i'm sure, but you have one HELL of a time reading man.

but in the mass zergling thread, i pointed out that the guy asked for how to defeat mass lings, he didn't ask how to defeat ******* mutalisks. Obviously lurkers won't do it, hydralisks will, now how do you get a lurker.... omg by a hydralisk? you build a group or 2 of hydras(since my tactics will only work in a bgh this is what i'm assuming) turn a few of those in to lurkers, maybe 5. use the rest to defend from mutas, if you're far enough along before he has enough mutas to worry about.

Use a defiler!

to the mods, and any one else here, i apologize if i'm being a bit rude and touchy. but i'm sick and F***** tired of being told i'm a newb, by people who don't even read what the hell i say, just because i'm not a non-money mapper, I've been playing this game since alot of you were still playing with legos and gi joes(i'm sure some of you are around my age though and this don't apply to you.) I've been playing RTS games, probably around the time you were in diapers.

Good.. GOD.

edit: And for my tactic to work in a non money map, you scale down the amount of stuff you build, instead of 2 groups of hydras, and 5 lurkers, build 3 quarters of a group, turn two of them in to lurkers and put them near your sunkans. and uyse the hydras to defend from mutas, with some spores.

[Sambo83]

lol.. excuse me.. i didn't repeat your exact wording in my reply.. please replace the word "firebats" in my post with "a few firebats in CONJUNCTION WITH MARINES AND MEDICS WITH STIM."

And no.. you can't pump a few firebats in CONJUNCTION WITH MARINES AND MEDICS WITH STIM, and still tech to tank and pump tanks. Protoss can switch to dragoons because they come from the same fking building.. he just waits for a time when he can skip 2 zealots to throw down the cy core.

The impression I get is that ur strategies come from the few games you've managed to pull this BS off against a newbie, and you aren't taking into consideration the 75% of games you lost without being able to understand why.

(since my tactics will only work in a bgh this is what i'm assuming)
Maybe your tactic would work on BGH... I doubt it, but I can't really say for sure.. one thing I can say is who the fk would play zerg on BGH..they are at a huge disadvantage on that map. But either way, the thread had nothing to do with BGH, so why did u post at all? Or maybe if you wanted to post you could have said "I have no clue how to help you, but this is what I do on Big Gay Hunters." Or better yet.. make a new thread about your BGH strat. Or better still, keep it to yourself. lol

use the rest to defend from mutas, if you're far enough along before he has enough mutas to worry about.
The problem with that, on maps that are played in pro tournaments, is that you won't be able to move out in a timely fashion. When you go hydra in a ZvZ, it turns it into a ZvT style somewhat in that your hydralisks will have to stay in your base until you can mass up a force big enough to both defend your base and move out. By this time, zerg sunkens up an expo and is going to heavily outresource you. Yea it can be pulled off, and it's a good secondary strat if done in conjunction with something else (for instance, you could open with a cheese lurk drop and transition into mass hydra). Overall, it's weaker than a muta build.

I guess your strategy makes more sense on big gay hunters because yuo just make 25 spore colonies, mass up off your one base, and then move out with your defilers lol.

i'm sick and F***** tired of being told i'm a newb, by people who don't even read what the hell i say, just because i'm not a non-money mapper
You seem to play almost exclusively money maps... therefore you are a noob. I am not sure why you're surprised that you're being told that you're a newb when all your strategies blow balls, and you have no clue wtf ur talkin about. That's what a noob is, in this context.

And for my tactic to work in a non money map
It doesn't work at all. Your newbie tactic, while it might be decent on a money map, will not work at all on a normal map. I'm not really sure how you can consider yourself good at anything though.. if you play money maps and you seem to play zerg on them.. that's just retarded. You'd think after 9 years of play, you'd realize they suck on money maps because you can't maintain continuous production of drones and units simultaneously like you can with the other races.

[DragonPaladin]

You could just build your normal...wall with buildings and use rine/vulture range to blast them zlots and scv repair...if they break through, play with scv+vulture. You'll lose scvs, but its better than...dying.

[Giantfish]

Welcome to Warbords Kharaa, and sorry for the rough greetings.

Your suggestion about using firebats with medics and marines does work. However, it is better to use vultures because they are just as effective against zealots while giving more benefits for your original investment. They are fast scouts, wonderful harassers, and can plant spidermines. On top of that, you can save the 150 minerals that would have gone into building an academy and use it to build a factory faster.

As Terran in TvP, you need to think about how the match will proceed in the long run. As the Protoss tech up, those infantry units you have invested in will almost certainly be lost in a firefight and are therefore worthless. Vultures on the other hand, can last throughout the entire game and do not lose much potential.

[kharaa]

lol.. excuse me.. i didn't repeat your exact wording in my reply.. please replace the word "firebats" in my post with "a few firebats in CONJUNCTION WITH MARINES AND MEDICS WITH STIM."

It does make the difference. as firebats alone can't take a mass of zealots.

And no.. you can't pump a few firebats in CONJUNCTION WITH MARINES AND MEDICS WITH STIM, and still tech to tank and pump tanks. Protoss can switch to dragoons because they come from the same fking building.. he just waits for a time when he can skip 2 zealots to throw down the cy core.

So.. you can't get a factory+ machineshop because you got an acadamy? :rolleyes: Right. Moving on.

The impression I get is that ur strategies come from the few games you've managed to pull this BS off against a newbie, and you aren't taking into consideration the 75% of games you lost without being able to understand why.

This is a moderately entertaining statement, it's the arrogant elitist view that only people who play LT have any skill. I'm beginning to see a pattern.

I was going to shoot these down point by point. but reading this one.. I don't really need to.


Maybe your tactic would work on BGH... I doubt it, but I can't really say for sure.. one thing I can say is who the fk would play zerg on BGH..they are at a huge disadvantage on that map. But either way, the thread had nothing to do with BGH, so why did u post at all? Or maybe if you wanted to post you could have said "I have no clue how to help you, but this is what I do on Big Gay Hunters." Or better yet.. make a new thread about your BGH strat. Or better still, keep it to yourself. lol

Huh???? Zerg have a huge dis-advantage why? I've never had a problem as zerg, not in the clan play i did, nor in most pub games i play, do i have much problem. "big gay hunters" again, this statement says it all, when i signed up for this community, i expected a mature respectful enviroment. Boy was i wrong.


The problem with that, on maps that are played in pro tournaments, is that you won't be able to move out in a timely fashion. When you go hydra in a ZvZ, it turns it into a ZvT style somewhat in that your hydralisks will have to stay in your base until you can mass up a force big enough to both defend your base and move out. By this time, zerg sunkens up an expo and is going to heavily outresource you. Yea it can be pulled off, and it's a good secondary strat if done in conjunction with something else (for instance, you could open with a cheese lurk drop and transition into mass hydra). Overall, it's weaker than a muta build.

Oh wow, you can make a statement without trying to bash me, without ever playing me, or without even knowing who i am.. i'm impressed.

I won't argue with you on your LT or other tourny ladder maps, kinda contradicting, you say that my strategy will only work in a perfect world, but now you're saying that it can be pulled off with some luck? Ok. :P

I guess your strategy makes more sense on big gay hunters because yuo just make 25 spore colonies, mass up off your one base, and then move out with your defilers lol.

No.. I don't mass up off my one base.. I try to expand early, holding up an attack on someone, specially a protoss player, requires more then one base, you need generally 2 full bases mining, and around 12 hatcherys each base.



You seem to play almost exclusively money maps... therefore you are a noob. I am not sure why you're surprised that you're being told that you're a newb when all your strategies blow balls, and you have no clue wtf ur talkin about. That's what a noob is, in this context.

I won't get in to the debate of what a newb is, other then it's someone who is new to the game, which I am far from. I play BGH, Only in the rarest omg i'm bored occasion do i play fastest money. My tactics are tried and tested, Hydralisks and Defilers are the perfect bread and butter combo against almost anything, with the ability to morph lurkers melee units don't stand a huge chance either. the real weakeness in the strategy, is splash. psionic storm owns me. in too many games back a few years ago, I was constantly rushed by a protoss player with 24 zealots, while i was terran, it completely and utterly obliterated me, i tried tanks, marines, medics, vultures.

until one day a friend said try throwing some firebats in there. so i build about 8-10 of them, got my stim upgrade, pumped out a few marines and medics, and watched this protoss player throw everything he had at me, which was around 25 zealots or something like that(didn't have much time to count..) to my UTTER surprise, with the medics behind the firebats, i stimmed. and watched it as they all died in massive groups. at that same time i was building tanks, got my first two out around 1-2 minutes after that attack ended, i proceeded to make around 10 more tanks, and seige them up.

in the end i ended up losing because of a well timed reaver recall drop on my minerals.


It doesn't work at all. Your newbie tactic, while it might be decent on a money map, will not work at all on a normal map. I'm not really sure how you can consider yourself good at anything though.. if you play money maps and you seem to play zerg on them.. that's just retarded. You'd think after 9 years of play, you'd realize they suck on money maps because you can't maintain continuous production of drones and units simultaneously like you can with the other races.

What?!? god are you listening to yourself? a continuous production of drones..? Why not? I usually make 2-3 hatcheries dedicated to drones, and around 8-12 others for unit production, my defenses are only enough to prevent a drop on my minerals, or a ninja attack from the side, otherwise my motto is the best defense is a good offense.

I can't beleive you actually think that only people that play normal maps are good at the game, it actually blows my mind.

[kharaa]

Welcome to Warbords Kharaa, and sorry for the rough greetings.

Your suggestion about using firebats with medics and marines does work. However, it is better to use vultures because they are just as effective against zealots while giving more benefits for your original investment. They are fast scouts, wonderful harassers, and can plant spidermines. On top of that, you can save the 150 minerals that would have gone into building an academy and use it to build a factory faster.

As Terran in TvP, you need to think about how the match will proceed in the long run. As the Protoss tech up, those infantry units you have invested in will almost certainly be lost in a firefight and are therefore worthless. Vultures on the other hand, can last throughout the entire game and do not lose much potential.


Thank you giant, point well taken. to be honesti 've never been much of a vulture user, but i can see the logic in your point, by the way i'd like to say thanks for the polite response.

I'm overjoyed to see not everyone here is an elitist.

[Sambo83]

No.. I don't mass up off my one base.. I try to expand early,
Good strategy. It makes a lot of sense to have 2 bases when you have 18 total drones and 25 patches at each base.. or by "early" do you mean just before teh NR20 period is over?

I won't get in to the debate of what a newb is, other then it's someone who is new to the game, which I am far from.
I already explained the context in which I was using the term "newbie." In my statement, it in fact does not mean someone new to the game. It means someone clueless as to the strategy of the game. I anticipated your semantics arguement, and explained my usage of the word, yet you still ramble on with this.

Anyhow this whole argument is a waste of time. I'll spank your newbie ass on your newbie money map which I never even play (maybe 80-100 total games in my life on them) and then maybe you will see that infact all the good players do play on non-money maps. But I doubt it.

[Alexisonfire]

sambo for prime minister

<3 noobs who just don't learn

[U-238]

Gee, why cant all the noobs around here learn when to listen to good adivce??

Here's the EXACT problems with your strat kharaa.

1. building an acad and multiple rax in a TvP is suicide because of their ability to tech to goons much more easily that you can tech to the goon counter (tanks). Rines are also not the counter to goons because they only deal 6 damage to a goons 10.

2. The reason you want to tech to vults is that:

a) they deal 20 damage to zealots (20)
b) they come out of the same building as your goon counter (tanks)
c) you don't have to spend money on buildings and thus you're not slowing your tech.
d) mines are effective against both zealots and goons.
e) vults are ranged which means you can move them away from the zealots, turn, fire, and run again therefore you don't need medics or ranged rines or anything else.
f) vultures do not suffer as hard from storm (allthough they do get hurt by reavers) and can take out templar much easier than can bats.

So I'll leave you with that list for starters. If you need more convincing just ask, I've got more.

And btw technicly you would be considered "noob" because your tactics won't work as well as what's done by the people here (who just so happen to actually be decent players)

Also people here do not play on noob maps (aka: money maps: bgh, fpm, 0c, etc) because they do not require the skill that normal maps do (aka: LT, Luna, RoV, R-Point, MemCell, Azeala, etc...)

So I think that should answer your basic questions. Feel free to ask more.

[splatt0r]

Good strategy. It makes a lot of sense to have 2 bases when you have 18 total drones and 25 patches at each base.. or by "early" do you mean just before teh NR20 period is over?

^^ hmm is that like the most common thing ever? Getting 2nd hatch before pool I mean.

[WickedImposter]

lol. ya a normal 12 hatch has hatch slightly before pool. btw kharaa money-maps require no skill. so stop bashing alex and them because im sure they could pwn you with a 10-worker handicap on you. in fact, i think even i could beat you.and im one of the worst players here

[ShadeZ]

1. building an acad and multiple rax in a TvP is suicide because of their ability to tech to goons much more easily that you can tech to the goon counter (tanks). Rines are also not the counter to goons because they only deal 6 damage to a goons 10.

rines acually do counter goons well but the main problem with mmf is that any protoss tech beyond goons utterly destroys it.

[WickedImposter]

ya. 1 reaver or some ht with the toss force can completely destroy any mmf force. after that, youve jsut wasted too much time on mmf, hell have an easy advantage and youll find it very hard to win in this situation.

[own3d0406]

This place has become overpopulated with idiots.
(ie. TSOShadow and Kharaa)

[DragonPaladin]

rines acually do counter goons well but the main problem with mmf is that any protoss tech beyond goons utterly destroys it.

One of the reasons Terran always goes mech is because of fucking psi storm.

[DragonPaladin]

Storm is relatively cheap and it RIPS infantry apart. LIke with Zerg.
Terran mech is pretty strong and it can stand a psi storm, plus with range, you can usually take out the hts...

[Sambo83]

^^ hmm is that like the most common thing ever? Getting 2nd hatch before pool I mean.
The normal openings are to put a hatch in your main.. or if you early expo, it's on a map with 8 patches... so you actually have usually 9 drones or 12 drones for 8 patches, and you're going to populate both bases with drones before you tech.

Early expo on Big Gay Hunters is useless because you will have what.. 12 drones for 25 patches and you're expanding? I think by fast expo he means that in his NR20 game, he expands after about 10 minutes.

rines acually do counter goons well but the main problem with mmf is that any protoss tech beyond goons utterly destroys it.
Rines only counter goons in small -> medium numbers. Like a quick rine rush can sometimes beat an unsuspecting opponent, because you'll have like a control group of m and m vs 4-5 goons. In large numbers though.. even pure goon will rape m and m.. like if you tried to bring 4 control groups of m and m against an equivalent amount of ranged goons, it would get raped because the goons can form a larger arc to attack all at once.. the marines would bunch up and be stupid and many would get killed before they get in range to start shooting.

[TSOShadow]

Sorry i lost track of this thread and clearly missed to explain to these ppl the "details" of my explanation...

I was saying make a supply wall to block majority of zealot... but leave a gap so it is more likely skipped... Then as units pour though the opneing 1-2 at a time...

you then have a bunker with firebats near that opening roasting all zlot that approach... With other bunkers with rine support... out side the bunkers are turrents, firebats-rines and medics...

(Vultures can stand behind them and provide more fire support and damage... Tanks tend to back fire although near the wall and behind other supplys or bunkers they com in very handy...)

You then have a powerful ground force... (Better then wasteing time microing Vultures with scv's...)

you can then tech up to SV's and irradiate/EMP his armies b4 they reach your defense line...

While expanding your forces to contain your enemy and continue to expand your armies to defend expansions (M&M's with tanks and some ghosts for lockdown work well for alot of forces... SV's make it cake...)

And yes Alex I do win -_-... I win just about every ****ing game and it's actually nice to be lazy and lose once in a while...

as another person sig says...

"Only you enemy will teach you your weakest point... Only your enemy will teach what NOT to do..."

Clearly I must NOT listen to you...

Ok... do not listen to anything he just said.

If you can't even try to understand my posts you can't understand how easy it is to take advantage of battles with some tactics...

Let me give you a clu... It dosen't take mass Vultures and SCV's... -_- (not saying it won't work... but thiers more effective ways...)

[lammas]

I was saying make a supply wall to block majority of zealot... but leave a gap so it is more likely skipped... Then as units pour though the opneing 1-2 at a time...

you then have a bunker with firebats near that opening roasting all zlot that approach... With other bunkers with rine support... out side the bunkers are turrents, firebats-rines and medics...

I assume that this has worked well at merchant UMS?

[Cpt.Chronic]

TSOShadow, your strategies are worthless. Go back to the Map and Mods Section where you belong.

Why would you waste money on multiple bunkers to counter zealots when you can just close your wall off completely and not have to build any bunkers? Pluss, the zealots could just run by your bunkers and go straight for your workers.

[WickedImposter]

ya. nobody gives a shit about UMS here, and the supply wall thing is messed up. your own units wont be able to get through unless its infantry and then only 1 at a time, while the enemy can just send dts throguh your wall, or destroy it while taking out supply in the process. all people need to counter zlots are good micro. its extremely easy to take out 1 zlot with 2 marines, and you dont need to waste time and resources building a supply wall.

[own3d0406]

YAY WickedImposter for president!

[WickedImposter]

its just the truth here. nobody cares about UMS in the tacticala chamber. were here to discuss other things like BOs, how to contain, etc. not about how he won once at merchants rpg.

[splatt0r]

TSOShadow, don't u know can wall with an engineering bay or rax instead of just suply depots? u can just lift them and go thru the wall... that's common sense. I hope you don't block with supplies and then destroy them to pass... or in the worst situation, I hope u don't drop your army out of the wall LOL!!

[Cpt.Chronic]

TSOShadow, don't u know can wall with an engineering bay or rax instead of just suply depots? u can just lift them and go thru the wall... that's common sense. I hope you don't block with supplies and then destroy them to pass... or in the worst situation, I hope u don't drop your army out of the wall LOL!!
Actually, e-bays don't work. I mean, sure they'll work for goons, but not for zealots cause they have that kinda diagnol shap to them, which allows zealots and other units that size to squeeze through.

[TSOShadow]

Alot of you are morons.... I fucking done it my self... only 2 or so zlot fit through... and if they do sit around long enough to kill the supply's your tanks rip them apart anyway... fucking think it through you morons....

Dt's I did mention turrets no? (not to mention u go Scanner by time thiers turrents)

walking by? thus firbats and medics.. they can make a wall around gap and hold zlot still... not to mention u could have a bunker around crucial buildings

I dunno who the fuck said your own men won't fit through.... and I didn’t say supply had to be the only building to use... simply their cheaper and they work well...

I fucking got to go the lengths of making a whole UMS movie that will show the results of each assault?!

Not to mention I nvr mentioned anything about UMS here... I also didn't say you need mass bunkers... 1 will work... and wtf will jus walling the choke off do? They attk the wall wit goons when it's dead then move zlot up... simple as that...

Where in the fucking world did you think walling it off works? Only a noob would believe that... and if u mass tanks they can use illusions and keep walking up to the wall until u blow it up ur self...

DON'T SAY SHIT IF U CAN'T BACK IT UP!

[own3d0406]

^^Don't you realise that this is exactly what happened in the "raiding" thread? You make this bogus strat and people try to correct you, but because of your stubborness and arrogance, you ignore the advice and continue to defend yourself with even more nonsense.

BTW Cpt.Chronic is not a moron, WI is not a moron, Splatt0r is not a moron, and I am not a moron (compared to you anyway), and let's stop with the mass swearing, okay?

[TSOShadow]

Did i say all of you? no it says alot...

Plus u still have proven nothing wronge cept that it's not related to UMS... Well bravo... real pro... man i should really look up to you... I'll get right on deleteing that ums part not mentioned anywhere in my strat... -_-

[own3d0406]

Did i say all of you? no it says alot...

Plus u still have proven nothing wronge cept that it's not related to UMS... Well bravo... real pro... man i should really look up to you... I'll get right on deleteing that ums part not mentioned anywhere in my strat... -_-
You're right, I didn't prove you wrong, but U-238, Alexisonfire, and Cpt.Chronic already did, maybe you should try reading their posts?

[TSOShadow]

And i have them... y don't u read once more?
p.s. stop turning this into a flame war...

I have posted a vaild opinion that can work and just because one person yells ums a bunch of yea team up with him just because you don't understand what is being said...

Go to the IR area... this is much similar to that... I have given a point... prove it wronge... and i'll show how it is not wronge or incorrect....

[Alexisonfire]

u r 100% and if u want i'll play u 1:1 any map u wish

[own3d0406]

And i have them... y don't u read once more?
You have what? I should read what?

I hope your skills in StarCraft are better than your grammar, but judging from your preivious posts, I highly doubt they are.

[TSOShadow]

I have proven them wronge... it's to continue off your last post... srry your so cut off from connceting one post to the next...

And no if your so sur your correct then make a map showing it...

[own3d0406]

I have proven them wronge... it's to continue off your last post... srry your so cut off from connceting one post to the next...

And no if your so sur your correct then make a map showing it...
No, you have not proven anyone wrong, you have just simply shown everyone how much of an idiot you are. Let me redirect you to Cpt.Chronic's post


Why would you waste money on multiple bunkers to counter zealots when you can just close your wall of completely and not have to build any bunkers?


This is a 'pwnt' moment.

[TSOShadow]

Wtf?! pwnt?!? i clearly mentioned you only need 1 bunker...

wtf is wrnoge with you?

You just pwnt ur self u idiot....

[own3d0406]

Wtf?! pwnt?!? i clearly mentioned you only need 1 bunker...

wtf is wrnoge with you?

You just pwnt ur self u idiot....
Okay, lets see: 1 bunker=100 minerals, 4 firebats=200 minerals and 100 gas academy=150 minerals. All this equals 450 minerals and 100 gas. Walling in: 2 depots=200 minerals (depots are already needed but let's put them in here for sake of argument) Rax=150 minerals (rax are already needed but let's put it in here for sake of argument) All this equals 350 minerals.

Yet another 'pwnt' moment from Own3d.

[TSOShadow]

what has this added up? that u skipped mineing process? if my tact is so beatable y is it possable for terran to beat toss then?

[Cpt.Chronic]

Wtf?! pwnt?!? i clearly mentioned you only need 1 bunker...

wtf is wrnoge with you?

You just pwnt ur self u idiot....

you then have a bunker with firebats near that opening roasting all zlot that approach... [b]With other bunkers with rine support... out side the bunkers are turrents, firebats-rines and medics...
Unless the word "other" and the use of "s" at the end of the word bunker doesn't imply the plural usage of the word, then yes, you did say to use multiple bunkers. Anything else?

The fact of the matter is you have no idea what you are talking about and everyone here knows it. I'll go ahead and challenge you to a 1v1, even though I know that you will never accept....soooo, 1v1? My nick is Kratom[sS] on US East gateway.

[Cpt.Chronic]

what has this added up? that u skipped mineing process? if my tact is so beatable y is it possable for terran to beat toss then?
Because when Terrans do beat toss, you can be guaranteed they didn't use your strat. Guaranteed.

[Cpt.Chronic]

I have proven them wronge... it's to continue off your last post... srry your so cut off from connceting one post to the next...

And no if your so sur your correct then make a map showing it...
WTF does making maps have to do with how to execute a successful strategy?

[TSOShadow]

It's a explanation of a recommendation.... thus it is not factual talk thus in no way incorrect...

Don't throw at me speech if you don't know how it's applied.

You can easily make a map that when entered... centers the screen on the battle field... spawns units in the EXACT set up I’ve explained... and can have a orders sent to units to perform specific tasks...

Thus the scenario takes place and is prove wrong or correct...

[Cpt.Chronic]

thus it is not factual talk

Obviously.

[TSOShadow]

So then y would you comment it as so? do not flame my comments if my work is "Obviously." unflawed in it's advise...

[Cpt.Chronic]

You can easily make a map that when entered... centers the screen on the battle field... spawns units in the EXACT set up I’ve explained... and can have a orders sent to units to perform specific tasks...

Thus the scenario takes place and is prove wrong or correct...
Ok, you do that. But make it a real game situation by starting the computers with 4 workers and 50 minerals, and have them build up to this scenario. Don't just spawn them in that scenario, because that's not a real game situation, which is what we are talking about. Have the zealots first attack after the first 2 are made (do a double gateway build). If there is a bunker have them ignore it, if not, have them kill the rines then go on to attack the scvs. Then once there are 8 zealots, have them attack again and run straight by you bunkers without attacking them, taking the route with the least amount of fire, heading straight for your workers. When the zealots get to your workers, have them attack the workers, then if you come to attack with rines or bats, have all but 2 zealots break off and attack the rines/bats while those 2 continue to attack your scvs 1 by 1. I await the results.

So then y would you comment it as so? do not flame my comments if my work is "Obviously." unflawed in it's advise...
I said your work is obviously not factual. I did not say that your work is obviously unflawed. I don't see how you could think that's what I meant when "unflawed" and "not factual" are direct contradictions, and the exact opposite of what I meant.

[TSOShadow]

Fine i'll make it...

[kvil0]

I don't usually post on WB but from what i read...

(i know im late on the topic but)

for ANY game against the protoss u DO NOT i repeat DO NOT go infantry.
Protoss Zealots/Dragoons/DTs will rape your infantry

go factory asap... and if teh protoss are going goons... well then tanks in seige mode are your best friends

[Cpt.Chronic]

Fine i'll make it...
Be sure to follow my instructions precisely. I edited them to make it a more realistic situation. Please read them again and make the AI do exactly what I said.

[TSOShadow]

such events don't seem dictated in the first post... and rather I expected to make your 8 or more zlot rush go aginst 1 bunker as I said with maybe 1 medic...

this isn't a 30 second rush if their was vultures and tanks involved...

Edit:It was a post to handle incoming goons and zlot... early game...

[blupp74]

TSOShadow, I understand it can't be very fun to get "attacked" by people when you post your strategies, but by being stubborn and not taking anything anyone says to heart, you're kind of deserving it.

Why are you even posting a strategy here if you're only willing to listen to praise? People here post to share experiences, give and receive tips and advice. You've gotten plenty of good explanations why your strategy (tactic, whatever...I can never tell them apart) will not work against a player who has a clue what he's doing. And when your strategy gets dissected, you go into attack-mode instead of trying to learn something from others.

Yes, mass bats will toast zealots. To an extent. There's a break-even point where the bats won't cut it anymore. And for each bat, you're wasting gas that could go into tanks or factories.

Putting a bunker at your choke is completely pointless, whether you wall in or not. If you DO wall in, zealots can't get in, and your SCV's can repair. When he comes with Dragoons, you will have tank (unless you waste the gas on bats, that is). If you DON'T wall in, the Zealots will just run past the bunker. Maybe they'll receive some damage from the bats, but their range is so short, it won't be much.

I promise you NO player with an actual brain will stay and attack the bunker.
And if you unload the bunker with bats and follow the Zealots, your own bats will toast your own workers.

If you, aside from the bunker of bats, also have more marines and medics outside, you're so behind in tech it's not even funny. And the next attack would not be more Zealots, it would be goons, zealots and high templars. Since you've wasted minerals and gas on bats and medics, you'll have no tanks to kill the range of the goons, and when your infantry rush to save the wall, the high templars with storm the shit out of them.
(Pardon my english).

There is a good reason why Terran does not use infantry against Protoss.
That reason was discovered years ago, and at that point it was also discovered what to do instead - go metal.

But if it works FOR YOU, against the people YOU play, then by all means, go ahead. But please don't preach it like some über tactic that's worth defending at all costs. Some newcomers *could* read what you write, and think you're right (not likely, considering the responses you've gotten, but still...), and start their SC career completely off the map.

You want that on your conscience? No, I didn't think so.

And while Cpt.Chronic, Alexisonfire and the others may sound a bit harsh when they argue your arguments, they are infact right.

[Alexisonfire]

u assume that the player will send his zlots into ur little hole thingy to get raped by a bunker when he clearly could just back away, tech to goons and get a free expo because u wasted so much time and minerals teching/building that piece of shit when what u should have done is get a factory then go w/e strat needs to be done (2fac, expo, or drop)

[Ahzz]

yeah, mass bats + meds with stim really do pwn zealots. But who's so stupid to continue making zealots if you go mass bats? 12 goons with proper micro can just about beat any amount of bats.

[Cpt.Chronic]

such events don't seem dictated in the first post... and rather I expected to make your 8 or more zlot rush go aginst 1 bunker as I said with maybe 1 medic...

this isn't a 30 second rush if their was vultures and tanks involved...

Edit:It was a post to handle incoming goons and zlot... early game...
You seemed to have missed my point in my post detailing instructions on how to make your map. To my knowledge (although I'm not positive because I'm not a map maker) you can't make the AI act the way I wanted it to. In other words, you can't make the AI think. It'd be a waste a time if you made this map because we're not talking about computer vs. comptuer, or human vs. computer, we're talking about human vs. human, and as such, human players constantly adapt their strategy to the situation at hand.

Also, I don't think you quite grasp the concept of why someone would use a sealed wall instead of leaving a gap. With a sealed wall, you don't have to make a bunker or firebats to stop zealots, because it is impossible for the zealots to get by the wall. You can place two or three marines behind the wall and they will get free shots on the zealots if they try to attack the depots or barracks. At this point, you should send scvs to repair whatever it is that the zealots are attacking, making his attack complete useless.

The entire point of making a sealed wall is that it buys you time. It buys you time to go straight to factories instead of having to waste time/money on an academy, firebats and bunkers. Here's a picture of the type of wall I'm talking about.

http://www.sclegacy.com/features/wallin3.gif

[TSOShadow]

Ahzz you actually made my point...

Bluupp you actually proved a point...

But also missed the point I said of having bats medics as Ahzz said to make a wall KEEPING zlot near bunker... and the bunker makes it so zlot have to space out more...

Tell me this... what is easier to kill?

1 zlot walking at your base at a time... or the whole group charging you self containing base? (Because of wall)

Not to mention the tanks blasting away your own wall...

Cpt. you just showed a wall your tanks would blow up easily... and if goons were smart they would go along lower cliff and blow up your rax and any tanks that get near cliff to try and counter...

(And of course goons should be spaced out so tanks are less effective not to mention your shooting your wall hitting zlot....)

I'm saying your over dissected.. You pick one specific part and ignore the part made to back it up... Your thus back firing your own comments...

[lammas]

that whole idea of making so small gap that only one zealot gets in at the is so horrible and retarded, yet showing shocking lack of all sc knowledge (how many games have you played?) that I dont know what to say. You got this idea from the famous merchant ums? Or perhaps marine defence? Oh now I know! It must have came from sunken def!.

Or actually I do.

Please post 10 tvp replays (vs human opponents on melee map) where you do this.

[TSOShadow]

keep going on... You have proved nothing and are leaning in the direction of trolling as well...

So tell me.. 1 at a time easier or not? And also if the enemy has goons you should have been able to get some tanks...(while his army crosses the distance) which would kill anyone slow enough to attk the supplies...

[lammas]

No you cant post replays because they dont exist. You have never done it vs human on melee map. Come to east right now Iam uT)lammas and we will test.

[TSOShadow]

No you cant post replays because they dont exist.

Find me a replay that has the more powerful then your own at your cliff side... Show me a replay where a wall of maybe 2-3 bats-mdics between the bunker and supply wall would fail...

And tanks not made yet?

[lammas]

Find me a replay that has the more powerful then your own at your cliff side... Show me a replay where a wall of maybe 2-3 bats-mdics between the bunker and supply wall would fail...

And tanks not made yet?

No. Post the fucking replays. If you have none say so and we will go to east and test it.

[TSOShadow]

Try every map where a person actually prepared for a rush... they'll all have armies larger then the enemy if tactically used right...

An armies can't be as strong as the base it self because the time between leaving their own base and arriving at the enemies allows your own base to produce more units...

[lammas]

W-h-e-r-e
A-r-e
T-h-e
F-u-c-k-i-n-g
R-e-p-l-a-y-s?

[kharaa]

this reminds me of /b/

[blupp74]

Ahzz you actually made my point...

Bluupp you actually proved a point...

But also missed the point I said of having bats medics as Ahzz said to make a wall KEEPING zlot near bunker... and the bunker makes it so zlot have to space out more...

Tell me this... what is easier to kill?

1 zlot walking at your base at a time... or the whole group charging you self containing base? (Because of wall)

Not to mention the tanks blasting away your own wall...


TSO, the reason people are starting to use harsh language against you now is that you're being so incredibly stubborn, and not actually listening to what a single person tells you. So what's the point in debating, when you're not listening?
First of all, tanks will NEVER blast away the wall, because later in the game there will be no wall (and in many cases, no tanks there either).

When your opponent is able to charge at the doors of your main base in late game, it's pretty much already over.

The wall is only, and ONLY meant to protect against the first early game attack(s). Only a few minutes later, a reasonably decent player will have an amount of tanks and vultures that only the stupid Protoss player would charge at, at the choke. And another few seconds after that point, the Terran player (the somewhat decent Terran player) will roll out his army.

If you spend money on academy and firebats and medics at that stage in the game (early game), your tanks will be late, your vultures will be late, the mines will be late, expanding will be late...EVERYTHING will be late. And when you finally DO get to tanks, there won't be zealots knocking at your door.

If you haven't been Reaver-dropped already, the force that comes to your door will kill you silly. You don't have tanks so the goons will fire at your supply depots faster than your SCV's can repair. Your bats will sit worhlessly in their bunker, and when you send the marines to fend off the goons the zealots will cut them to shreads, assisted by the goons.



Cpt. you just showed a wall your tanks would blow up easily... and if goons were smart they would go along lower cliff and blow up your rax and any tanks that get near cliff to try and counter...

(And of course goons should be spaced out so tanks are less effective not to mention your shooting your wall hitting zlot....)

I'm saying your over dissected.. You pick one specific part and ignore the part made to back it up... Your thus back firing your own comments...


First of all, tanks would (in the scenario you're trying to describe) be placed close to the wall, so they couldn't hit it (not much anyway).
Second of all, sieged tanks on cliffs can probably take goons at an exponential 1:2 ratio. 1 sieged tank will kill 2 goons, 2 sieged tanks 4 goons, etc.
THey have far superior range, they have height/sight advantave, and they deal full 70 damage each hit, with splash.

Protoss player (smart??) can walk his goons along the edge as much as he wants. Unless he outnumbers the T player by far (which he actually would, by the time T has tanks going by your strategy...so I guess I can understand what you're talking about) he'll get squashed.

If you don't want to take my word for it, or anyone elses, or try it yourself, then try watching some replays.

I join the Lammy choir and ask you to please, PLEASE post a replay where you got away with this.

[Ahzz]

ahahaha Jaguar_king II nostalgia etc :D:D:D:

[U-238]

I can't believe this! You've been overturned at least 3 times now and yet you still are stubborn enough to sit here and defend your strat! GIVE IT UP! It doesn't work and if you insist that it does then I'll glady meet you on b.net so you can prove it to me.

[own3d0406]

I can't believe this! You've been overturned at least 3 times now and yet you still are stubborn enough to sit here and defend your strat! GIVE IT UP! It doesn't work and if you insist that it does then I'll glady meet you on b.net so you can prove it to me.
That's what I told him and he said I was "trolling", geuss noobs will never learn when they're wrong.

[U-238]

Tolling my ass. If he's going to go about spouting random bullshit that isn't going to work on B.net then he needs to either stfu or be silenced by being proven to that his stuff is shit.

[WickedImposter]

ya. i want to see a replay where this works. and not against some noob. i want to see him get utterly killed by lammy,ahzz, or anyone on WB 1v1

[blupp74]

ya. i want to see a replay where this works. and not against some noob. i want to see him get utterly killed by lammy,ahzz, or anyone on WB 1v1

It won't take a lammy or ahzz to kill him.
I can't think of a single regular in WB that wouldn't kill him.

[TSOShadow]

Give me the force Protoss brought to your entrance at first... heck give me the replay if you can...

I'll logically explain every detail of how to logically counter the enemy...

I'll even give you lil kiddy pictures since reading isn't your strongest points...

[Cpt.Chronic]

You're still posting in this section? Why?

[blupp74]

Give me the force Protoss brought to your entrance at first... heck give me the replay if you can...

I'll logically explain every detail of how to logically counter the enemy...

I'll even give you lil kiddy pictures since reading isn't your strongest points...

I can give you no replay of me putting 4 bats in a bunker, and leaving a hole in my wall, because I never do that, for all the reasons already stated in this thread.

And I already know how to counter the enemy, both logically and practically, and it sure as hell isn't by putting short range mobile units somewhere they're not mobile, in a stupid hope the enemy will just stay next to the bunker while I kill them.

I read and write just fine, thank you, which is more than can be said about you. And any attempt I've ever made to be nice and polite now seems like a total waste, when it's utterly obvious that you're a total idiot.

Terran is my main race. I'm close to worthless with both Protoss and Zerg, but I'll play you with either of those races, and watch as your laughable strategies are completely crushed by the lamest of attacks.

So either post a goddamn replay where your tactics come to good use, or face me in a 1v1, or SHUT THE HELL UP!

[TheBlackAbyss]

My friend, this is next to pathetic. I'm just repeating what everyone else has said, but I've played enough to know not to make bats for gods sake. The only time I have ever really made a bat is when I'm going MnM and I feel like throwing one in.

And, you seem to have reached a level of blind arrogance where you are just ignored the posts everyone sends you way to recieve proof of your bullshit lies.

Go burn in hell, idiot.

[B.A.Baracus]

You're still posting in this section? Why?

Hes in far to deep to stop now, it has become a "to the death" endeavor for him:P

[Cpt.Chronic]

Hes in far to deep to stop now, it has become a "to the death" endeavor for him:P
Yeah, kinda like Rambo parachuting into the middle of enemy territory with nothing but an M-60. If I remember correctly, Rambo won. Too bad this ain't Hollywood or TSOShadow might actually have a chance.

[TSOShadow]

Here I’ll lay it out for you in detail…

A group of 8 lot and 4 goons

1300 mins
200 gas

maybe about 950 minerals in structures (supplies gate and a cybernetics…)

I’ll exclude the peons costs… assuming the players match each other in resources and must beat each other in tactics/micro…

Now Protoss have made 1300 minerals 200 gas for their lil army…

Then Terran should get the same worth in units…

1300 minerals buys up to 26 marines…
4 of these units can be medics or bats from 200 gas

All the is needed is 2 bats and 2 medics…

Leaving us 22 marines worth in minerals…

Now because the academy is 50 minerals cheaper then cybernetics and 1 less marine can afford 1 bunker we got 21 rines and a bunker with our supplies in a line… (witch was paid for in that 950 minerals)

Now this can be on a cliff giving even more advantage… or on even ground where your numbers out dose his goons and his zlot cant jus “run past” because of the placement of firebats and extra marines…

As shown below… on 2 different terrains…

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f106/TSOShadow/CliffTerran1.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f106/TSOShadow/TerranDef2.jpg

Now are you saying 8 zlot and 4 goons can pass either of these? because I woudln't allow it...

The mere numbers them selves explain how affective the defense will be…

21 marines all doing 6 damage each… The number of shots fired (lets say even fewer marines) 16x6 = 96 damage dealt out to each unit…

The dragoons at most can only take 3 hits of that much damage…

A single zlot can only stand two rounds of this damage… and being slowed with supplies not to mention them walking into the fire bats will be the death of them… any other holes can be filled with all units being more tightly put together then this…

And this isn't even the full force considering thiers 21 rather then 16 marines!

Not to mention the distance Protoss traveled allows for more units… probly 22-24 marines... (depends on map...)

And tanks are not that far behind the marines if you limit your numbers…

Now just to prove more I'll go into details of an even earlier rush… (That is if u prepare for one…)

8 zlot as recommended…

800 minerals…

1 bunker 2 supplies (matches Protoss supplies) and 13 marines… positioned to block of any units from passing through… (The bunker and extra marine since no acadamy is paid for...)

78 damage per zlot…

Not to mention extra resources spent from zlots traveling to terran base… meaning more men or marines range upgrade…

Then you must factor in terrain and how many zlot are allowed by at a time…

Examples below…

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f106/TSOShadow/TerranEarly2.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f106/TSOShadow/EarlyTerran1.jpg

What this set up will do is make it so only 1 zlot at a time may attk a marine while all others continue to rain fire until the zlot until their all dead…

If the zlot attempts to kill the supply then it is simply repaired and the zlot die with out any real use…

Now Of course this doesn’t apply to all maps and you must change your style for larger choke points…

These of course are set that everything is even... Which battle nvr is... And is of course able to fail due to changes in choices.. timeing... placement... positioning... micro... and other such details...

The final rule of balance is:

“To win you must have 3 things… The Units… The Tactics… and The Micro… in an even set match using either one of these creates a new weakness for your self but also a new possible advantage…”

With out these you’re going to fail…

You called down the thunder... Now reap the whirlwind... :worship: :_owned: :worship:

[B.A.Baracus]

You fool you didn't calculate build times nor the mass rax it would take to produce that. By the time you had 10 marines they would be raping you with goon/lot. You are so half assed.

[Cpt.Chronic]

blah blah blah

/me looks at pictures

/me laughs ass off

[TSOShadow]

Well, that is what we discuss, because the game of starcraft was intended for low money maps.

Now you know.

And where in the hell you got this idea? The game is ment to be played and enjoyed in anyway possable so that we can tell our friends and make Blizzard a massive profit...

Made for low money maps? Yea nuff argueing... Your a lot of morons if you belive this...

And I don't c how build times would make much a diffrance... you still got the enemy traveling the distance not to mention the fact that the game wouldn't be on market if it wasn't balanced in that manner either...

Thier you go you proved your self trolls...

[B.A.Baracus]

Wait buddy boy, I wanna hear your computations on how fast you can make 21 Marines and how fast it would take them to match you lots/goons. What you don't understand is they will find you before this force is even half ready, and the 3-5 Marines you have wont hold off 2-4 goons with range. What your proposing is simply ridiculous and un-sound. You failed, just let it go.

[Cpt.Chronic]

Just answer these simple questions:
Which wall setup is more cost effecient?
Which wall setup can be built faster than the other?

This one (A):
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f106/TSOShadow/CliffTerran1.jpg

Or this one (B):
http://www.sclegacy.com/features/wallin3.gif

[ShadeZ]

I got this idea because the tactical chamber is meant for it, and that is what we have discussed for the past three years...

Of course it was made for low money maps, otherwise it's use map settings or some map with too many minerals, which is not what they made the game as. They intended for games to be made, but use maps settings games and fastest games are not what THEY made.

Now have you made the calculatons that as soon as your opponent sees you go more then 1 rax he will get high templars or reavers? That will pretty much destroy your strategy.

[TSOShadow]

Why would you only have 4-5 rines? and who says these are once agine final? You can make another Rax and only be 3 rines short... and how the hell would they hav goons already by time u got 4-5?!?!

How in the hell do you mange to win then if you just rush for tanks every game? Get your head around it... rushing tanks isn't the solution to everything.. (eg. TvT Containment)

Cpt.:At one point you will hav to move the rax or lose it... which either way means an open front door for ghosts late game... (To your main base this is where alot of tech is stored...) which is y a bunk is thier in the 1st place... Also in some situations the bunker increases range... (depending on position and unit...)

but use maps settings games and fastest games are not what THEY made.

Are you saying Blizzard have some random ppl put these in?... yea ur a smart one all right... get ur self a cookie and stick crayons in your nose kid...

[Cpt.Chronic]

Just answer these simple questions:
Which wall setup is more cost effecient?
Which wall setup can be built faster than the other?

This one (A):
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f106/TSOShadow/CliffTerran1.jpg

Or this one (B):
http://www.sclegacy.com/features/wallin3.gif
...still waiting.

[B.A.Baracus]

Why would you only have 4-5 rines? and who says these are once agine final? You can make another Rax and only be 3 rines short... and how the hell would they hav goons already by time u got 4-5?!?!

How in the hell do you mange to win then if you just rush for tanks every game? Get your head around it... rushing tanks isn't the solution to everything.. (eg. TvT Containment)

Idiot.
I'm still noob at a SC, and I only play toss as second race, but even I know goons can be achieved before tanks, and you must rush tanks because of how bad goons rape rines. And money spent on a bunch of marines could go to a rax or supply or more scv or whatever. I do support 1-2 marines on ramp to stop lot rush, but more then 4 is stupid unless they go all out rush.

And terran NEED tanks in tvp, its just a fact. Marine and Medic CANT hang with toss powerful ground.

[TSOShadow]

Dude read it... early game... not mid tanks and vultures... with mine fields...

gl stopping the rushs wit 2 rines since 4 is so stupid... and scv's r mor important...hav fun wit ShadeZ...

[ShadeZ]

How in the hell do you mange to win then if you just rush for tanks every game? Get your head around it... rushing tanks isn't the solution to everything.. (eg. TvT Containment)
You are quite correct, but it is the solution to tvp and tvt.

If you wall like chronic said a couple marines is all it takes to defend against early rushes. Zealots can't break through they're sitting ducks and there is a tank ready before the enemy can have more then 3 goons.

[Ahzz]

yes. Psionic storms, dt, and weak hp units really make it too hard and too risky to play toss marine medic firebats unless you get toss completely off guard.
in chrons picture 2 you'd have like 6 tanks and other stuff by the time you got that amount of rines
gl stopping the rushs wit 2 rines since 4 is so stupid... and scv's r mor important...hav fun wit ShadeZ...
lol? look at chrons pic #2, zealots cant get thru the wall, rines will shoot them behind. scvs come and repair if needed. 2 rines by the time zeal comes or so if something where your tech wont really be slowed down, its like extra money unused. And you can still got all out scvs all the time just as fast

[TSOShadow]

You are quite correct, but it is the solution to tvp and tvt.

If you wall like chronic said a couple marines is all it takes to defend against early rushes. Zealots can't break through they're sitting ducks and there is a tank ready before the enemy can have more then 3 goons.

And assumeing toss is smart he'll camp out side ur base outa tank range to make it so u contain ur self... real accomplishment...

[Cpt.Chronic]

Just answer these simple questions:
Which wall setup is more cost effecient?
Which wall setup can be built faster than the other?

This one (A):
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f106/TSOShadow/CliffTerran1.jpg

Or this one (B):
http://www.sclegacy.com/features/wallin3.gif
...still waiting.

[TSOShadow]

it's been answerd...

Cpt.:At one point you will hav to move the rax or lose it... which either way means an open front door for ghosts late game... (To your main base this is where alot of tech is stored...) which is y a bunk is thier in the 1st place... Also in some situations the bunker increases range... (depending on position and unit...)

[Cpt.Chronic]

it's been answerd...
No, you have not answered the questions. I want you to answer my 2 questions that I have quoted. I gave multiple choice so there will be no mistaking in your answers to the questions. Either say (A) or (B) to answer the questions. That's all. Here's an example answer for you.

Question 1: B
Question 2: B

Now you try.

[Ahzz]

hey buddy, here's two pvt replays of two VERY good players, not from here, they're both far above any of our level here. just watch them and see what they do, then come complain. and don't you dare spit out shit like you could actually give them ADVICE

[B.A.Baracus]

hey buddy, here's two pvt replays of two VERY good players, not from here, they're both far above any of our level here. just watch them and see what they do, then come complain. and don't you dare spit out shit like you could actually give them ADVICE


Thread closed. Where did you get those reps from?

[blupp74]

You called down the thunder... Now reap the whirlwind... :worship: :_owned: :worship:
So let's assume you manage to get all of this from one rax, in any decent time, and that P does NOT have reaver and/or templars at this point...

Why on earth do you think P player would even attempt to move into a choke with bunkers, marines, medics and firebats, without above mentioned templars and reavers? He'd be expanding all over the map while you guard your precious choke. And what's the next step for you then?

He'll be so far ahead economically it's not even funny, and when you roll out with your infantry, he WILL have templars or reavers, or both, and they will be dead in 3 seconds.

I say again, show a replay against a human player, where this worked.
And if you manage to produce one, I have no doubt I'll find countless flaws in the Terran players play.

Your. Strategy. WILL. NOT. WORK. against. a. player. who. is. anything. but. a. total. noob.

[own3d0406]

" you hvea provd noting wrong, mas rinez firbats and bunks FTW! I am stil write, u hve pruved noting wrong"

-My best impersonstion of TSOShadow.

[Cpt.Chronic]

Thread closed. Where did you get those reps from?
Those games are from the Sandlot tourney. You can find all replays of sandlot games on battle.net site.

http://www.battle.net/tournaments/sandlot/schedule.shtml

[TSOShadow]

Early game anyone? I did go to extent of putting that.. with pictures... yet you still don't understand what I have this defense made for...

who the fuck has revers that early in game? Your just doing what the others r now... making up stuff which has nothing to do with the subject...

So let's assume you manage to get all of this from one rax, in any decent time, and that P does NOT have reaver and/or templars at this point...

Why on earth do you think P player would even attempt to move into a choke with bunkers, marines, medics and firebats, without above mentioned templars and reavers? He'd be expanding all over the map while you guard your precious choke. And what's the next step for you then?

He'll be so far ahead economically it's not even funny, and when you roll out with your infantry, he WILL have templars or reavers, or both, and they will be dead in 3 seconds.

I say again, show a replay against a human player, where this worked.
And if you manage to produce one, I have no doubt I'll find countless flaws in the Terran players play.

Your. Strategy. WILL. NOT. WORK. against. a. player. who. is. anything. but. a. total. noob.

[TSOShadow]

This isn't like the replays... the terran defense worked but thier was no rush... and I do have a replay with a rush... properly done for just such a defense...

It has a protoss rush... made for that common terran move...

[Cpt.Chronic]

Just answer these simple questions:
Which wall setup is more cost effecient?
Which wall setup can be built faster than the other?

This one (A):
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f106/TSOShadow/CliffTerran1.jpg

Or this one (B):
http://www.sclegacy.com/features/wallin3.gif
...still waiting.

[ShadeZ]

And assumeing toss is smart he'll camp out side ur base outa tank range to make it so u contain ur self... real accomplishment...
Then you lift barracks and chase him with 3 rines and a tank, and another one on the way. He can't defeat those without greater injury then is worth.

Protoss.. cannot... contain... terran... earlygame...

[TSOShadow]

3 rines and a tank would then meet his HT... they can contain it's just no easy task...

Not to mention by time u got tank he got his own large force developing out side the base... and they can keep retreating... and w8ing for anything that comes out of ur base... Ht's and goons wit some zlot will take care of most anything u bring out...

and he'll be rever dropping you by time u get enough tanks to push him out of ur entrance...

[B.A.Baracus]

3 rines and a tank would then meet his HT... they can contain it's just no easy task...

Not to mention by time u got tank he got his own large force developing out side the base... and they can keep retreating... and w8ing for anything that comes out of ur base... Ht's and goons wit some zlot will take care of most anything u bring out...

and he'll be rever dropping you by time u get enough tanks to push him out of ur entrance...

Why don't you play starcraft before making such foolish and idiotic statements about it.
If p fast techs dt then they wont have the forces to contain t's tanks by a long shot. Why dont you come to op swbk and test some of your ideas.

[own3d0406]

Early game anyone? I did go to extent of putting that.. with pictures... yet you still don't understand what I have this defense made for...

who the fuck has revers that early in game? Your just doing what the others r now... making up stuff which has nothing to do with the subject...
Really? how the fuck do you mass rines firebats and medics from 1 rax early game?

[blupp74]

3 rines and a tank would then meet his HT... they can contain it's just no easy task...

Not to mention by time u got tank he got his own large force developing out side the base... and they can keep retreating... and w8ing for anything that comes out of ur base... Ht's and goons wit some zlot will take care of most anything u bring out...

and he'll be rever dropping you by time u get enough tanks to push him out of ur entrance...

I can't even imagine the build P uses if he has HT when T has 3 marines and a tank.

So a force of tanks and vultures won't stand a chance against the P force waiting outside (which now appearently includes HT's), but your mass marines and firebats hanging around by the choke will??

My god...where do you get these ideas?

[own3d0406]

I can't even imagine the build P uses if he has HT when T has 3 marines and a tank.

So a force of tanks and vultures won't stand a chance against the P force waiting outside (which now appearently includes HT's), but your mass marines and firebats hanging around by the choke will??

My god...where do you get these ideas?
Probably SC.org;)

[ShadeZ]

3 rines and a tank would then meet his HT... they can contain it's just no easy task...

Not to mention by time u got tank he got his own large force developing out side the base... and they can keep retreating... and w8ing for anything that comes out of ur base... Ht's and goons wit some zlot will take care of most anything u bring out...

and he'll be rever dropping you by time u get enough tanks to push him out of ur entrance...

Wrong. By the time you have high templars the terran will have multiple tanks, 3-4. Same with reavers. If you DO get these units this fast then there will be no dragoons to contain.

[blupp74]

This isn't like the replays... the terran defense worked but thier was no rush... and I do have a replay with a rush... properly done for just such a defense...

It has a protoss rush... made for that common terran move...

Ok, please understand this: You can be REALLY confusing.

Why are you posting this replay? First of all, it has nothing to do with your "4 bats/bunker" strategy. Second of all, the game consisted of a cheese proxy gate tactic, which your strategy would have been worthless for (included with all other things your strategy would be useless for), and thirdly, the T player in this rep is Lammy, who is one (of the many) of the people here that has dissected your strategy.

So, again...why did you post that replay?

Lammy's BO is perfect. Did you see what he had when the first zealot was out of the Gateway? ONE MARINE! From ONE BARRACKS!
Only difference is this was proxy, so it took no time for zealot to get there.
But even WITH the distance added, you wouldn't have time to get 4 bats (which would require gas and an academy too) and a bunker by the time it got there. This is why walling in the RIGHT WAY is a good strategy against Protoss. If you scout him going straight to goons this might not be necessary though.

[Ahzz]

if lammy was rushed, he'd have seen it, and done a few more marines. and if they come and hit his barracks or supply depots, he just takes maybe 6 scvs repairing it, WHILE the tank is building. you just cant do anything with zeals. when goons come the tank is ready and possibly even siege moded out of goon range, while wall-in prevents him to attack the tanks.

I do not understand you TSOshadow, you talk shit like you know everything, you prove nothing, and when someone actually says something against your idea and PROVES it you just ignore it and continue babbling crap that doesn't even make sense

[Alexisonfire]

tso is a communist

[U-238]

Does that mean I"m not a "commie" anymore? :D

Really though I can't understand why he won't give up. M&M vs most any kind of toss doesn't work let alone getting a suitable amount of marines and firebats from one rax! That is bs all the way home. So give it up! You've got the best 6/7 players here telling you that you're wrong and why you're wrong and you just ignore them and talk back like they don't know what their doing???

[Alexisonfire]

of course ur not a commie u-238 ur my buddy and i would never be buddys with a commie

and tso most likely doesn't believe the garbage hes posting hes just having a good laugh as well am i

[WickedImposter]

lol. were all buddies here at WB. cept with TSO because HES SUCH AN IDIOT. TSO, proxy gate is a whole different thing than youre so called defense. using your strat you might have 1 marine no wall by the time he has 2 zeals at your door. thats why ppl use wall 2 supply 1 rax, not your stupid 2 supply 1 bunk. you probably woudnt even have a bunk by the time he has zeals, so your pretty much screwed. give up, and if you really want to play with the big boys, come to op swbk. everyones ready to kick your ass.

[TSOShadow]

Ok, please understand this: You can be REALLY confusing.

Why are you posting this replay? First of all, it has nothing to do with your "4 bats/bunker" strategy. Second of all, the game consisted of a cheese proxy gate tactic, which your strategy would have been worthless for (included with all other things your strategy would be useless for), and thirdly, the T player in this rep is Lammy, who is one (of the many) of the people here that has dissected your strategy.

So, again...why did you post that replay?

Lammy's BO is perfect. Did you see what he had when the first zealot was out of the Gateway? ONE MARINE! From ONE BARRACKS!
Only difference is this was proxy, so it took no time for zealot to get there.
But even WITH the distance added, you wouldn't have time to get 4 bats (which would require gas and an academy too) and a bunker by the time it got there. This is why walling in the RIGHT WAY is a good strategy against Protoss. If you scout him going straight to goons this might not be necessary though.

1 rine from a late rax... Protoss made the gate first thus the rine was late... I say it as if it is on a perfectly even battlefield... Which is how it is logically calculated... but is of course not correct to realistic battle…

Not to mention Time was wasted lifting that rax... and a supply was made behind the crystals... he sought a wall and supplies for an advantage along with gas... his down fall was not watching his bases entrance... something I do before going out...

if lammy was rushed, he'd have seen it, and done a few more marines. and if they come and hit his barracks or supply depots, he just takes maybe 6 scvs repairing it, WHILE the tank is building. you just cant do anything with zeals. when goons come the tank is ready and possibly even siege moded out of goon range, while wall-in prevents him to attack the tanks.

I do not understand you TSOshadow, you talk shit like you know everything, you prove nothing, and when someone actually says something against your idea and PROVES it you just ignore it and continue babbling crap that doesn't even make sense

He was rushed and didn't see it... I don't talk like I know every thing I talk logically and mathematically... I had shown the math and the positioning and I also explained at one point in another thread that it makes the enemy baited into thinking theirs an opening... When really well placed units to keep his men back and well damaged... while you suffer minimal damage... Giving your self the edge... doing the same with your units while moving forward keeps them alive and the enemy units dead...

I watched the replays and I saw mass vultures and tanks... Spaced (further back rather then side by side) badly reducing fire rates and damage dealt... in a defensive state the units are un effective set up like this... Not to mention vultures charged to their death with out laying their pay loads... a large waste of resources... the mines could have been used near enemy expansions and other key choke points...

tso is a communist

Edit that comment...

Does that mean I"m not a "commie" anymore? :D

Really though I can't understand why he won't give up. M&M vs most any kind of toss doesn't work let alone getting a suitable amount of marines and firebats from one rax! That is bs all the way home. So give it up! You've got the best 6/7 players here telling you that you're wrong and why you're wrong and you just ignore them and talk back like they don't know what their doing???
M&m dosen't work when ur units are kept tight together vs. HT's... But this is early game and HT's with storm has not been researched... Stay on topic it's early game...

of course ur not a commie u-238 ur my buddy and i would never be buddys with a commie

and tso most likely doesn't believe the garbage hes posting hes just having a good laugh as well am i

I've proven everything with science... and images... and in a sense the replay I sent...

It doesn’t connect to my defense but it dose connect to my unit timings... when travel time and remove that slow built rax keeping Terran behind... it would have been perfectly on time to my unit build time calculations... A bunker is also built faster then the supply so he could have made 1 bunker instead of that 2nd supply I saw... (Which of course would be near resources and CC and Rax... Although if done right would fit well near entrance...)

Simply the replay was an example (and proves my point of SC balance… toss sought an advantage with the threat of being discovered… and toss used that advantage well) and I've given proof and an application to my defense tactic...

lol. were all buddies here at WB. cept with TSO because HES SUCH AN IDIOT. TSO, proxy gate is a whole different thing than youre so called defense. using your strat you might have 1 marine no wall by the time he has 2 zeals at your door. thats why ppl use wall 2 supply 1 rax, not your stupid 2 supply 1 bunk. you probably woudnt even have a bunk by the time he has zeals, so your pretty much screwed. give up, and if you really want to play with the big boys, come to op swbk. everyones ready to kick your ass.

Your pigeons who flock to one thing all together at once and team up and get high off each others praises... your like the government.... You get one guy who acts as ruler and everyone else joins up for a bit of the power... next thing u know you got them going around saying they know everything and anyone who says other wise is a "communist"...

"American pigs..." as the Germans say... And no this doesn’t mean I believe your all American...


Chalk that up as another... what 6-7 comments shot down? 2 lazy to keep count anymore...

:cool:

[Cpt.Chronic]

:chuckball

[Alexisonfire]

Edit that comment...go to hell commie
classic jays post ftw

[WickedImposter]

ya that pretty much says it all. we dont get "highs" off each other. in fact, usually we all have devided opinions. however, theres always that one idiot that keeps on going, even when its obvious he lost. youve filled that role this time. If i know lammys BO, his rx would have probably been at around 10, which is not late. thats about average. anything before ten supplies is a waste of money, as rines are only used in either a gundam rush, which is a normally used strat, or an idiot mm tvp strat, which in this case is yours.

Why wont you just give up TSO? weve shot down every single damn point youve made, and even then you wont admit defeat. and what youve said is far from a replay. so why dont you just give us the fucking replay, and stop avoiding us. come onto bnet, even the noobest of noobs on swbk could beat you. heck, i bet anyone can beat you with a 10 peon handicap. so stop fucking chickening and come to bnet so we can utterly pwn your sorry ass. case closed. and by by the way, i think i just shot down your whole account :cool:

EDIT: jays you dont have to explain shit to him. if anything, he should be doing the explaining. heck, you should just fucking edit whole posts of your TSO. i really doubt youve actually tried your strats and are just trying to bullshit us like you did with all other sites. ive been there on scorg. too bad were not all idiots here.

[SuiCidAl-KiSmEt]

You are most provocative TSO. Try this math, can you prove your strategy is economically better during later game then the ones they're telling you?

You must understand, most of their strategys does come professional games and players who play in ladders and PGT.

[own3d0406]

:chuckball
Exactly what I was thinking

[WickedImposter]

man. if TSO was in my neighbourhood, i would be very tempted to go over there and knock (literally) some sense into him. and kismets right. most ppl that hes been critisizing could beat him hands down. he jsut wont give up. i just wish hed finally go on bnet so we could prove once and for all that his strats are nothing but bull-shit.

[TSOShadow]

his rx would have probably been at around 10, which is not late. thats about average. anything before ten supplies is a waste of money, as rines are only used in either a gundam rush, which is a normally used strat, or an idiot mm tvp strat, which in this case is yours.

It's the fact that a Rax is made faster then a gate and he coulda had the supplie and bunk to wall off his base for the rush sooner... I also noticed that toss had more miners then Lammy at one point making it so Lammy was behind in his resource gathering while he was building... (unless some of his SCV's were stacked at the point I checked...)

Your so strong strat was taken by a mere probe rush... and if ur smart strat is so great then y is it such a rush can beat it every time? (what if thier is no choke? You saying toss can rush you so fast no matter what you make ur screwed?)

That would make the SC balance out of whack the game rigged and SC would go down the drain...

[WickedImposter]

im not going to say anything and let lammy respond to that, as im sure he has an uber response that will be 10X better than anything anyone else can say. plus its him in question.

[Alexisonfire]

every pgt, wgt, wcg, msl, and osl map has a choke (excluding islands (don't be stupid)) only map i can think of that doesn't have just 1 enterance or w/e is son of korhals or w/e and its only fun pvz

no ones going to play a map that favours a race or favours luck (1 blizz maps have 1 race starting on above terrian beside to the other starting point)

[Cpt.Chronic]

TSO, I was just wondering, have you ever actually played a 1v1 against a human opponent before?

[ShadeZ]

Your so strong strat was taken by a mere probe rush... and if ur smart strat is so great then y is it such a rush can beat it every time? (what if thier is no choke? You saying toss can rush you so fast no matter what you make ur screwed?)

Good players don't get beaten by that rush everytime, your comment is false. If you want proof, just play vs the terran players here and you'll get owned everytime. Even if you do these strats that supposedly "win everytime"


M&m dosen't work when ur units are kept tight together vs. HT's... But this is early game and HT's with storm has not been researched... Stay on topic it's early game...M&m dosen't work when ur units are kept tight together vs. HT's... But this is early game and HT's with storm has not been researched... Stay on topic it's early game...
so you're saying that the M&M's suddenly dissapear when they research HT's and all the money you've completely wasted on them can be redistributed? That's not the way the game works.

I've proven everything with science... and images... and in a sense the replay I sent...
You've proven nothing. You can't prove the unprovable.

Your pigeons who flock to one thing all together at once and team up and get high off each others praises... your like the government.... You get one guy who acts as ruler and everyone else joins up for a bit of the power... next thing u know you got them going around saying they know everything and anyone who says other wise is a "communist"...

Well of course we're going to gang up on you because we all know for a fact through experiance that your strategies do not work. And only jays calls people communists.

Not to mention Time was wasted lifting that rax... and a supply was made behind the crystals... he sought a wall and supplies for an advantage along with gas... his down fall was not watching his bases entrance... something I do before going out...
How is time wasted lifting a rax? There's nothing it does to slow down, maybe it wastes time if all you can manage is 40 apm but for the rest of us it's nothing, just a touch of the mouse and keyboard.

Meanwhile you build a supply behind your minerals to stop any unit from running behind the minerals to escape your units while maintaining watch over your base.


Chalk that up as another... what 6-7 comments shot down? 2 lazy to keep count anymore...

I haven't been counting this entire time but I think you're at about 0 by now.

EDIT: O_o My post count is now 666

[TSOShadow]

every pgt, wgt, wcg, msl, and osl map has a choke (excluding islands (don't be stupid)) only map i can think of that doesn't have just 1 enterance or w/e is son of korhals or w/e and its only fun pvz

no ones going to play a map that favours a race or favours luck (1 blizz maps have 1 race starting on above terrian beside to the other starting point)

And thier you hve it these ppl just play matchs with the same strat and advantage becuase they can't go out and find a new battle field or new challenge... Yep your the pros of the future... I can see all brood war players learning from your play style...

Hell this arguement is done... your just trolls looking for easy games that require no little nothing tactics...

Edit: 666... the address of the father of lies... I rest mycase...

[Alexisonfire]

the maps that r normally played allow for the maximum amount of strats without it being completely rigged for 1 race. i'll say the ladder map "gauntlet" or w/e from when starcraft was new made it so the ONLY strat possible was muta. starcraft is based around careful balances of the races because they r so extremely different (unlike age of empires or the C&C series were its balanced because there is only like 1 or 2 differences in races) and because of this maps must be also equally complex. things like very hilly terrian which r hard to flank on allow for terran to have the advantage while if the map is wide open zerg is just a complete bitch.

[TSOShadow]

That makes sense although still is selective chooseing...

and yea zerg can be a bitch...

[ShadeZ]

And thier you hve it these ppl just play matchs with the same strat and advantage becuase they can't go out and find a new battle field or new challenge... Yep your the pros of the future... I can see all brood war players learning from your play style...
Right that's why at top level the play is more balanced on these maps than in any other RTS with unique races has ever had before... makes a lot of sense... If that were true we would all be the same race but we aren't.


Hell this arguement is done... your just trolls looking for easy games that require no little nothing tactics...

I agree that it is done, you have allready lost it. Anyway "easy games"? I do not find the games I play easy, I have to play hard as I can to win. If it were an "easy game" then I could try as hard as I do now and still be equal with the top players, but Starcraft is in no way easy to play, that's where the appeal comes from. Playing against you would be an "easy game"...


Edit: 666... the address of the father of lies... I rest mycase...
Oh yes my post count should amount to a HUUUUGE amount of proof... obviously commenting on my post count just completely obliterates what I said in my post doesn't it. :rolleyes:


That makes sense although still is selective chooseing...

Well yes of course there is selective choosing... after all if a map is messed up in a specific little way it can throw the balance off.

[SuiCidAl-KiSmEt]

And thier you hve it these ppl just play matchs with the same strat and advantage becuase they can't go out and find a new battle field or new challenge... Yep your the pros of the future... I can see all brood war players learning from your play style...
...
the maps that r normally played allow for the maximum amount of strats without it being completely rigged for 1 race. i'll say the ladder map "gauntlet" or w/e from when starcraft was new made it so the ONLY strat possible was muta. starcraft is based around careful balances of the races because they r so extremely different (unlike age of empires or the C&C series were its balanced because there is only like 1 or 2 differences in races) and because of this maps must be also equally complex. things like very hilly terrian which r hard to flank on allow for terran to have the advantage while if the map is wide open zerg is just a complete bitch.That makes sense although...
Tha'ts good enough. The maps we play in are balanced for all races. So you understand why we play them now. Which is why professionals play them. The great players who play them, like the people your agruing against right now including me, likes challanges and doesn't play the same maps every single time. But challanges are more fun with balanced maps.

Hell this arguement is done... your just trolls looking for easy games that require no little nothing tactics...
Your stragety has no economic advantage then what we keep telling you.


Edit: 666... the address of the father of lies... I rest mycase...
That necessary? It seems like your losing this, being disperate enough to go after post counts. :confused:

[WickedImposter]

ya TSO give up. youve lost weve won. and ya, your right. any game against you would be an easy win because you suck and your too chicken to come to bnet.