Formal Complaint (grab a snack)

[Cpt.Chronic]

I've decided to post this thread here since I was told I would not be banned for doing so. Another reason for posting this complaint public is that I previously tried to explain myself to the moderator that the complaint is against, but he basically said that I was not permitted to explain myself, deleted my posts, said I broke some non-existent rules, and then banned me.

The complaint is against the moderator Ender for issuing infractions based on personal reasons and then banning me even though I had infracted upon no established rules here at Warboards. The "situation" started when I posted a sarcastic comment in this thread ( http://www.warboards.org/showthread.php?t=21307 ), which stated "mmm, good ol' Christian values." This comment was in response to Christian values that had been broken, hence the sarcasm.

So that is the first part of my complaint. I was given an infraction even though I broke no rule, unless of course I missed the rule that states posting sarcastic comments is not allowed (in which case this is a sarcastic comment and I should be banned). This is the PM I received for this infraction, which clearly states his personal reasons for banning me (I will put it in bold in case you miss it).

PM
Dear Cpt.Chronic,

You have received an infraction at WarBoards.

374183

Reason: Trolling and flaming
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This post was clear trolling and flaming. Don't do this, please. PC has christian values - her family may not. It happens - try to be a bit more sensitive.
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This infraction is worth 15 point(s) and may result in restricted access until it expires. Serious infractions will never expire.

All the best,
WarBoards

I then responded to his PM by PM'ing him back with this message, explaining that he misunderstood my post, because my post was not even directed at ProtossChick, which he claimed, and even if it was, it still didn't break any rules.

Umm, obviously what I said was about her family and not her considering that's what her post was about. Even if I were to have directed that comment at her it's not your place, or anyone else's for that matter, to tell me that I'm not permitted to question people's values and beliefs.

Next time, take my comment in the context of the thread instead of applying your own personal meanings behind something that doesn't exist.

That was neither a troll nor flame, rather an obvious statement of certain people's lack of values, something that many Christians are notoriously hyporcritical about.

He also posted within that thread this message to me:
That was totally out of line.
To which I replied to him within that thread that it was he who was out of line for giving me an infraction even though I didn't break any rules (or something along those lines, I can't say for sure since it was deleted..maybe y'all have backups of deleted posts and can check it).

He then sent me 2 PM's back to back.
So, telling a person who is very Christian and to whom Christian values matter above all that her family isn't Christian isn't a flame?

It doesn't matter what she said. It's her family.

Oh, and by the way...infractions aren't for discussion or review. Oh, and never bring up an infraction in the thread. These things are not to be discussed in public. First off, I have read no rule that discussing infractions in public is against the rules, which is what I am doing now, and is why I asked if I would be banned for doing so. Apparently, he just made up this rule because he didn't agree with the subject matter that I posted.

Secondly, he is completely twisting my words and saying that I said something that I never said to justify his giving me an infraction for flaming ("So, telling a person who is very Christian and to whom Christian values matter above all that her family isn't Christian isn't a flame?") I never said her family isn't Christian. I implied that they didn't have good Christian values, which is obvious considering their actions. Hell, he even agreed with me when he said, "PC has christian values - her family may not." And now he's implying that I don't even have the right to discuss her family ("It doesn't matter what she said. It's her family"), which is what that entire post was about, and what he even did himself-- an obvious double-standard.

So then I decide to explain (within the thread) what I meant when I posted my sarcastic comment so that others wouldn't make the same mistake as Ender had. It was a fairly lengthy post going into values and hypocricy among other things. I then mentioned my current post, nor my previous post broke any rules, although Ender clearly disagreed and deleted my completely relevant and on-topic post, and gave me another infraction.
Dear Cpt.Chronic,

You have received an infraction at WarBoards.

http://www.warboards.org/showthread.php?p=374283 (http://www.warboards.org/showthread.php?p=374283#post374283)

Reason: Ignoring staff instructions
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Didn't I tell you not to discuss this in the thread? I did. Way to ignore instructions.

This isn't anything personal. I don't make the rules, I just enforce them. Stop breaking them.
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This infraction is worth 15 point(s) and may result in restricted access until it expires. Serious infractions will never expire.

All the best,
WarBoards He says he doesn't make the rules, yet I have never read this rule of not discussing infractions in public, which apparently isn't a rule considering that's what I'm doing now (with permission of the staff). 2 minutes later he sends me this PM:
Seriously, dude, just deal with it and move on. You're up to 30 points because you can't let it go. 15 more in the next 30 days and you get a 3 day ban.

Seriously, it is really worth it? Just understand you made an impolite statement and we noticed. I asked you not to bring it up in the thread and you didn't listen. Stop doing it. So NOW, I apparently broke the rule of making an impolite statement?! If that were a rule at WB, over half the people here should be banned. This PM pretty much pissed me off, so I finally respond to him with another PM, and out of principle, post again in that thread about how he is being unjust towards me. Again, it was deleted so I don't have it, but it again broke no rules. Nothing I did broke any rules.

My 2nd and final PM to him:
No, you stop it. You think just because you're a moderator you can control me? You think you can control what I think? You think you can control what I post when it abides by the rules just because you disagree with it? No, you can't, so stop trying. I will not be controlled....not by you, not by Bush, not by Satan, and not by God...not by anyone.

And yes, it's worth it. I was then banned and he sent me this PM:
Dear Cpt.Chronic,

You have received an infraction at WarBoards.

http://www.warboards.org/showthread.php?p=374285 (http://www.warboards.org/showthread.php?p=374285#post374285)

Reason: Ignoring staff instructions
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I can't control what you think? I can't control what you post? I can't control what you say, but I can control whether or not you even post. You just disobeyed my directives again!

You did break the rules, and even if you hadn't, by disobeying me you have. If case you don't know, all infractions given are seen by AJ and Schwitzer. Both of them have seen these and, since they haven't removed them, clearly agree with me. Enjoy your 3 day ban. If you come back from and ban and resume the same old activities - or continue to spam me with PMs about this - you're gone, understand?

Control that.
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This infraction is worth 15 point(s) and may result in restricted access until it expires. Serious infractions will never expire.

All the best,
WarBoards There are some interesting points in this PM indeed. The first one comes when he says, "You just disobeyed my directives again!" the key word being "my." Since when must I abide by his orders just because he's a moderator if what I'm doing follows every rule that Warboards has? It'd be like a cop giving me a ticket for going 55 in a 55 zone, and telling me I'm not allowed to go 55 in this 55 zone. Just because he says I can't do something when it abides by the rules/laws, doesn't actually change the rules or laws. Here, he re-affirms that he is above the rules at Warboards and I must abide by what he says even if I am not breaking any rules: " You did break the rules, and even if you hadn't, by disobeying me you have."

So then he goes on to threaten me by saying, "If you come back from and ban and resume the same old activities - or continue to spam me with PMs about this - you're gone, understand?" This is one of the reasons I requested permission for posting this thread before doing so. I didn't want him coming in here, deleting it, then perma-banning me. He also says I'm spamming him with PM's...Ha! So now, apparently, I'm not permitted to discuss this through PM's or in public or I face a perma-ban. Is that in the rules too? And about "spamming" PM's to him...I sent him 2 PM's in a period of 4 hours while he sent me 3 times that many in the same period of time. Now you tell me who's spamming who?

Because of my unjust infractions/banning, Ender's abuse of power, and him thinking he's above the rules, I formally request he be removed from modship. I await your response....oh, and thanks to whoever reads this whole damn thing...I can't believe it ended up being as long as it did.

[kongurous]

Decisions of the staff are final and open to a moderator's discretion, and the banning of a member or deletion of a post is not open to discussion. Edgewize says so, and he made the rules.

Looks like the entire base of your post is gone.

http://www.warboards.org/announcement.php?f=4&a=1

Remember that moderators and administrators have the final say on any moderation decision, including the right to close, rename, or delete any thread, or edit or delete any post, for any reason. While the action will generally be explained, this explanation is voluntary and may not be provided, even upon request.

Sarcastic or not, your post was deleted out of bad taste and posting off-topic and bringing it up is indeed against the rules.

[bluemicrobyte]

Cpt.Chronic, I can see your point of view and I respect any individual that puts such a great amount of effort into an organized complaint (since I DO love a good formal, organized complaint). You would make an excellent lawyer.

From personal experience I've learned that when a moderator uses their powers upon you it's not because they dont like you or they're out to get you. They're your friends -- when they mod me, I just nod and say sorry then move on.

Essentially a moderators job is to remove content that might offend someone else, and by doing so prevent a conflict between two regular members. The moderators aren't perfect, and they do make mistakes. But they're only human and they use their best judgement to try to keep everyone on the boards happy.


In summary, I applaud the formal complaint in its thoroughness. I also think that you have to be careful that you don't over react to what the moderators do since they're only doing the job that AJ has given them.

[Schwitzer]

Okey, wow.

The original comment, "mmm, good ol' Christian values." could be argued either way. Ultimately, a moderator made the call that it was in bad taste and acted on that decision. That's what moderators do - they have to draw a line in the sand between what can and can't fly.

You must surely realise that a comment like that - made in an emotionally charged thread - could easily have started a round of flaming. That's not to say that your comment may not have had some merit or basis behind it, but in the best interests of maintaining a supportive atmosphere it was shot down.

So to this extend, Ender was well within his rights to act as he did and I support his decision.

Where it gets gnarly is the subsequent extension of this single act of moderation.

Basically it comes down to the fact that you didn't appreciate being given an infraction, and Ender cheerfully kept firing more at you every opportunity he got.

I read your entire post - including the deleted posts from that thread - and took everything you said into consideration. However, I am not going to demote Ender solely because of a single issue that will blow over within a week.

If, in the future, you feel that you are being unjustly moderated I recommend you get directly in touch with myself, as opposed to engaging in a personal battle against the moderator. I say this because member vs. moderator battles end up bordering on personal, and the moderator always ends up "winning" (they're the ones who can ban, after all).

If you want to expand upon this you are welcome to send me a private message. I do not want to see a continuation of this squabble erupt in or from this thread.

[Hawthorne]

Well Cpt.Chronic, I agree iwth Schwitzer on this one. Mainly because religion is not something to be toyed with. One of the things that happened a while ago, I'm sure you shoud have heard about is is the Pope got half the Middle East angry at him, and in some ways he can be blamed for that, but in others he can't. It depends on the person you see, to you that was sarcastic, but to someone else that might be offending or even worse. I'm not that religious, I'm a christian ( not the catholic type ) but I generally don't believe in religions, but if let's say a person from the middle east who believes in the islamic religions offended my religion, I woild fight back, because even though I don't believe in it 100%, it is something I was born with. I won't just go " Hey, nice, go on, tramp on things 90% of my countrymen believe in, I don't give a damn, if you want, you can burn Bibles in my backyard. ", so just be a little bit more careful when you're trying to be sarcastic ;)

[Nickodemus]

What you do have to realize is any attack or sarcastic comment against good ol' PC seems to get peoples panties in a bunch. especially ender who has a thingie for her. People for some reason freak out if you point out any flaws in her irational ways off pulling god into every little thing. My advice is to just let him and or her delusions alone.... especially now that ender has his little power hungry thing going...


Christians really do not like you to point out flaws in their lojic. especially fanatics

[Ender]

I can honestly, truthfully, say you people blow this entire me and PC thing out of hand. The whole "we're married" thing started in the RP forum where we RPed together a few times and occasionally our characters were romantically inclined toward each other. Yes, we get along well. Yes, I consider her a friend, but in no manner did I moderate your post because it was PC and because she is a friend of mine. I simply thought striking against someone's religious values is wrong. I interpreted it as this: PC, being very religious, and caring about her families values (since that was what the post was about) could take it offensively. Thus I deleted it and gave an infraction.

You mentioned I told you not to discuss in public. By that I meant the specific thread where it happened - bringing it up in here is okay, this is where it is supposed to be. Bringing it up in those threads creates spam, arguments, and takes it off topic, and that is why it should not be discussed in that thread. I told you not you post it, and you did. Infraction for disobeying staff. I did it again, and you did. Infraction for disobeying staff. 45 points = ban. I'm sorry, that's just the system.

As for the comment regarding the "my directives," I was referring solely to when I told you not to post in that thread. Nowhere will I ever make the claim my word IS WB law.

The PM thing, okay...that was my bad. I was aggravated with you and made that mistake. I'm sorry. You are, of course, allowed to PM me with as many complaints about my moderating as you wish - it was late, I was trying to leave, and was getting kind of pissed off. That's no excuse, but maybe it puts it in perspective a little bit.

[GenocideAlive]

I can agree with your sentiment, Captain. However, whenever you attack people's fundamental beliefs like that, you always run the risk of flaming getting started. That's reason number one. Number two is that PC was trying to discuss difficulty she was having with her brother's supposed new child, not her Christian values. Number three is that the comment was spammy--you weren't really offering anything on topic to further discussion. You were just hijacking the thread with a snotty one-liner.

If you had wanted to comment on her religious values, in my opinion you would have a much better leg to stand on if you had actually fleshed out your opinion and stated your reasoning. Why does that matter? Well, it eliminates problem #3 (Spam), and it also marginalizes #1 (Flames). It's difficult for someone to respond to a reasonable, well-thought out post with flames and still seem justified. A smartass one-liner, however, is much more difficult to justify.

In terms of responding to Ender in the manner that you did, you basically got into a power struggle with a mod on the board. I can tell you from years of experience: you lose, every time. Your best response would be to go to a neutral third party that possessed the capability to arbitrate, Schwitzer.

Otherwise, please ignore quimbley's remarks. He has despised PC since about 6 mos ago when she crashed his Diplomacy thing or something and he made a big long crybaby thread about it, and he despises anyone that doesn't have a frothing hate for her along with him. :rolleyes:

[Nickodemus]

I do not despise the woman. I just think for the most part she is hipocritical. I have had issues on and off with her as she has with me. but to say i despise someone would be an incorrect assumption. But, and you have been on the recieving end too if you seem to argue her religious belief structure and/or point out any flaws in it. you get attacked here and it seems to ruffle feathers. I also did not make a cry baby thread about it. As i remeber it I asked what people thought of Religious Zealots and if they had any place in society. People simply took it as an attack on her. If she thought it was an attack on her she could have simply stated it to me either in the thread or via PM and I would have said so. I was responding to some Article that I had read whose name eludes me now. But suffice to say just because I have no problem telling someone exactly what faults or problems i see in ther logic, or that i find with them it does not mean i Despise them.

[Ender]

Quimbley's personal problems with PC (or lack of them...or whatever) are not really the point of discussion here.

[kongurous]

I simply thought striking against someone's religious values is wrong.

And yet you did it yourself... in the same thread...

http://www.warboards.org/showpost.php?p=374832&postcount=49

And since when was it a moderator's duty to remove pictures from a quoted post?

[GenocideAlive]

And since when was it a moderator's duty to remove pictures from a quoted post?
Since the picture could cause a slew of problems, legal or otherwise, for Warboards. If you don't like it, go somewhere else. Problem solved.

[hammocksleeper]

Glad we got everything cleared up. :)

[Schwitzer]

And since when was it a moderator's duty to remove pictures from a quoted post?
If the original image is removed, than it must also be removed from any quotes. Otherwise, it's not really removed, is it?

[Cpt.Chronic]

I read your entire post - including the deleted posts from that thread - and took everything you said into consideration. However, I am not going to demote Ender solely because of a single issue that will blow over within a week.
This is very disapointing-- not that you didn't fulfill my request to remove him from mod, but that you will take absolutely no action against him even though that you disagree with his moderation practices in the form that he "cheerfully kept firing more at [me] every opportunity he got."

By not taking punitive actions in any form, it only perpetuates and encourages this type of action from Ender-- not only from Ender, but from any mod that reads this. You have basically written a blank check for them to do whatever they want, for them to ban whoever they want, for whatever reason they want, and face absolutely no consequences for doing so. If you don't want to remove him from modship, that's your decision, but to do absolutely nothing is (in my opinion) completely irresponisble as an admistrator of these forums.

Ender may have proven to be a good mod in other instances, but that doesn't excuse his actions against me. It's like (extreme exaggeration here) letting someone get away with murder because they have donated thousands of dollars to charities in the past and have no criminal record.

Ok, so you don't want to demote him. What about a lesser punishment? What about taking an action against him that will tell him that this type of moderation based on personal reasons is unacceptable here at Warboards? I was banned [i]unjustly for 3 days (not a single rule did I break). How about a justifiable banning of him for 3 days? That seems fair. How about a temporary demotion that would tell him that this type of behavior is unacceptable? Hell, even issuing a stern warning not to ban people for personal reasons, or the next time punitive actions will be taken. Even that would be better than doing absolutely nothing. By doing nothing you have encouraged the continuation of this abuse of power, and to say I'm disappointed would be quite the understatement.

One of the things I've always liked about these forums is that they have a fair approach to moderation, and that is why I post here instead of re-signing up at Blizzforums. The moderators over there are completely out of control, and I would hate to see the same thing happen here. I have a feeling I'm not the only person that feels this way about Blizzforums, which is why so many people never rejoined after their crash. A lot of people did the same thing I did, and just continued to post here (or somewhere else), where moderation (for the most part) is actually fair. To encourage unjustified moderation policies through inaction against said moderator(s) is the first step to losing control over the "fair" practices of all moderators here at Warboards. This is exactly what happened at Blizzforums and is the exact reason I no longer post there.

So, in closing, I respectfully ask that you reconsider your decision to take absolutely no action against unjust moderation policies.

[Schwitzer]

I gave the open invitation for anyone to contact me whenever they feel a moderator is acting improperly. This hardly counts as opening the flood gates to the chaos you explained in such detail. If anything, it's a gentle reminder that accountability is alive and well.

[Cpt.Chronic]

What's the point in contacting you if you do nothing about it? Through your refusal to take action against Ender it is plainly evident that this is how deal with unfair moderation practices. If I would have PM'ed you this instead of posting it here, would that have changed your decision to continue to sit on your rear-end and do nothing? For some reason, I doubt it. By making my complaints public I am exposing the unfair practices of the staff here at warboards to its members, which is my only consulation of this whole ordeal. If I would have PM'ed you this it would have done nothing more to persuade you to change your mind, and additionally noone would know that I even disagree with you.

Even though you refused to address anything in my previous post, I have heard the sound of the gavel denying my appeal and take my leave.

[AJ]

There aren't unfair practices being exercised, nor is the world working against you.
The "Man" as it were, isn't coming down on you, nor are your freedoms being infringed.

Both you and Ender have stepped beyond what I would have considered to be exemplary behavior. You were banned for your offenses, not directly by Ender, but by the system that I have in place that auto-bans users based on the point value of their infractions, you exceeded the set amount and were banned.

What Schwitz has been trying to tell you, is that if you were to simply stop your tyrade right now, you'll find no loss to yourself, and Ender has already been talked with -- every action that we take is not made extremely public.

Thank you for your concerns, I will always accept PMs regarding abuses of power, as will Schwitz, however you must understand that we evaluated the situation and found things to be equally to blame. You didn't die while you were banned, and Ender didn't escape unscathed either.

If there are any more issues, I ask you to PM Schwitz or myself directly -- this issue is over.