EARLY GAME ZERGvZERG PROBLEM

[MrBobby]

ok.

BACKGROUND INFO

i play nearly exclusively as zerg. i'm no longer a noob but i'm not brilliant either, well depends how well i'm playing that day/game... i have my moments of brilliance, honest. my BO used to be 9pool, rush, expansion, mass hydra. i changed to a muta obsession. which leads me to explain my current BO, which is, 9, extractor, 9 lord, pool at around 11, more drones / expansion asap, 4-6 lings (for defence, rushing a [still] undefended opponent- btw i usually play 2v2 or 3v3, or for helping an ally being attacked), then sunks. at the same time i'm rushing lair/spire. because i get my extractor before my pool (oh and 3 drones on gas when i expand) i get mutas nearly always before anyone but a terran player can defend against them (marines).

PROBLEM

HOWEVER the PROBLEM is this: reasonably frequently, i get comprehensivly slaughtered by a zerg player who has gone mass lings, ie (as far as can tell from scouting) early pool, 2 hatch by main, expansion, all the while pumping lings. oh ps i sometimes (especially on LT, when i dont usually bother with sunks. sunks work better on hunters) pump lings with any extra mins. well, they just flood me with lings and i die. how can i counter this? i could never get my mutas and get the same amount of lings, because they put EVERYTHING into lings (they die totally if i have an ally to save me, coz they have NOTHING vs my mutas). i can't imagine getting enough sunks, even. but should i just make much more sunks? i usually have 2-4. well, you tell me. please. what to do vs a player who goes mass lings? often i know they will, from scouting. sometimes it comes as a nasty suprise. help, please.

SOLUTION

insert solution here .................

[ShadeZ]

On zvz you much expand slower then in other mus... it's a fact of life, unfortunately :(

[blupp74]

On zvz you much expand slower then in other mus... it's a fact of life, unfortunately :(

There are facts of life in StarCraft??
I knew it!! Just wait until my gf reads this. I'm saved!!

[splatt0r]

1) Maybe you haven't got enough sunks
2) If you see him going mass lings dont forget to get the speed upgrade
3) If it is a 2v2 try to run with your lings around while your ally comes with help.
4) Dont be afraid to spend mins on lings meanwhile, you'll use every larva in muta when spire is finished, and you'll still have extra mins
5) Build an hatcherie just a bit before your ramp and get 3-4 sunks. Put your lings on hold, while the sunks shred their lings. (works fine with me)

If he sees you are going muta and he still decides to mass lings, he should have some spores in his main, right? If he blocks his entrance ramp with lings, how could you know what he is doing? Just a tought.

[WickedImposter]

There are facts of life in StarCraft??
I knew it!! Just wait until my gf reads this. I'm saved!!

lol blupp. i can imagine you printing this page exclusively. anyways, zvz, its all about scouting. you should get more sunks, or not let them scout you as well. sunks on cliff will probably be effective here.

[Superiorwolf]

blupp aren't you married?

Also, yah, get sunks. More lings you see, more sunks. One sunk is 125 mins and kills a ling in 2 shots, also 300 hp and 2 armor or something so reasonably good to protect vs lings for a while, just make sure they can't reach your minerakl line unless u got def there

[B.A.Baracus]

ZvZ is very simple, drones till 9, scout with 6th or 7th drone.
On 9 make a pool, a drone to replace pool, then over lord. With your next 50 mins make gas, then drone to replace gas.
Save 3 larva for lings and rush your opponent that you scouted with early drone and over lord. When extractor is done put two drones on it and do nothing but mass lings. When you have 100 gas tech speedling, at some point if your doing well you should have enough mins to make a second(in base) hatch.
Only when your opponent is weak should you start teching muts, or if your confident hydra.

[Alexisonfire]

i'm no longer a noob i read to that point and decided ur a liar therefore i shouldn't read ur post

oh and of course blupps not married him, his girlfriend and their bastard son are all gonig to hell

[GroG]

If you are playing 2v2, you should probably hold off on that early of an expo. A much safer way of playing is 9 pool, 9 ovie, 11 or 12 hat (in main) lings. Save larvae when pool is half done. Make 6 lings, then make 2 more (for 8), then power a bit and make more lings later. Help your ally pressure, or defend. I probably wouldn't waste money on sunkens, but if you are uncomfortable without sunkens, build one in your mineral line.

Get an extractor, and get ling speed. Don't let those lings die if you can (always attack with partner, and with melee in front, range in back). If your opponents are pressuring harder, use your larvae to make more lings, and delay your tech to lair to produce more lings.

When you fight ling vs ling battles, (especially when defending yourself) try to do it at the top of a ramp. That way, if he has more lings, you can delay him at the ramp while producing more lings. If it comes to you near your drones, use drones/lings to block off that one sunken. Micro.

While you are harassing with muta successfully is when you want to expand. Plan out your overlord supply ahead of time, and stop morphing larvae when spire is about half done to get 6 muta simultaneously.

Also, mid-game, your main base can support 3 hat lings, just so you know. So don't be afraid to make a 3rd hatchery in your main if you need to. Only expand when it's safe.

9 pool speedling -> 2 hat muta is a very common build among double zerg allies. If you both get +1 glave attack while harassing with muta, it's a very strong build, and the zerg's easily have midgame map control.

Hope this helps.

[blupp74]

i read to that point and decided ur a liar therefore i shouldn't read ur post

oh and of course blupps not married him, his girlfriend and their bastard son are all gonig to hell

Mr Alexisonfire, I look forward to seeing you in hell. When that day comes, me, my gf and my son will all take turns hitting your nose with a freshly rotten surströmming, until you faint. Then we will wake you up with the strong scent of a freshly rotten surströmming, and swiftly resume hitting your nose with a new, and even more freshly rotten surströmming.

[Sambo83]

wow... just wow.. can't even bother to correct everything in this thread lol

ehhh.. first off ur a complete noob (original poster)

Second off, in 2v2 on LT, your best bet is to make 2 sunkens near your ramp and block your ramp off with ling if you aren't going 3 hatch ling yourself.

Third, listen to Grog.. his shit is correct.

Fourth, Baracus probably loses 50% of his ZvZ wondering how the opposing zerg had mutas at his base 30 seconds before his were done. So you should probly ignore his post. And the reason is because he spent his first 100 gas on something other than a lair. But that's only for 1v1.. in 2v2 you have to make ling and gas late or else cliff sunks if you want to try to tech.

[Alexisonfire]

blupp i have no clue what i'm being hit with but i assume that surströmming is ur way of saying u love me so lets cut the small talk and have my babies rite now

[blupp74]

blupp i have no clue what i'm being hit with but i assume that surströmming is ur way of saying u love me so lets cut the small talk and have my babies rite now

Surströmming is one of the sickest swedish food inventions ever.
Appearently someone way up north in sweden thought that a certain kind of fish ("strömming"...might be herring in english, not sure) would taste so much better if they let it rot first. It's been said to smell horribly (as rotting fish would), but I've never actually smelled it myself.

I would love to have your babies, except that 1) I can't, and 2) I really, really don't want to.

:P

[U-238]

But that still doesn't answer the question why your gf has had your offspring and yet you still havn't married the damn thing.

Fourth, Baracus probably loses 50% of his ZvZ wondering how the opposing zerg had mutas at his base 30 seconds before his were done. So you should probly ignore his post. And the reason is because he spent his first 100 gas on something other than a lair. But that's only for 1v1.. in 2v2 you have to make ling and gas late or else cliff sunks if you want to try to tech.

Actually it depends on what your opponent's doing when you decide what to do with that first 100 gas. If he's going lings and isn't showing any signs of going for lair tech then sure as hell go for ling speed. But if you see lair then spend yours on lair appropriately. As you can probably see you can have early mutas but 6 mutas don't really help when your base is getting overrun with lings. (not to mention the fact that you probably are behind on econ because you've spent 350 extra minerals on lair/spire and those minerals could've been used to make lings to hold off your opponent with.)

[Sambo83]

I used to do a gas/pool build where I'd get ling speed and then lair, because my gas started well ahead of my opponents... but that's the exception not the rule.. if he's showing no sign of lair tech, spend your first hundred gas on lair and force him to spore.. then you can expo and likely gg.

In zvz, you aren't limited by minerals to getting lings.. only larvae.. so unless he has 3 hatches, you should have no problem if you pump ling constantly... or you can always throw down a sunk and power a bit more if you ahve good building placement.

[U-238]

I didn't say that was the rule. I said it depends. yes in genera ZvZ you go lair first but if your opponent doesn't head for lair then you may end up dead because you didn't have the ling firepower needed to stop his army. (and no one sunk isn't going to do it.:P)

[Sambo83]

how is he going to have more ling than you though? are you saying he's building a 3rd hatch before lair?

Cuz honestly I don't think I've seen that once in my last hundred zvz.

[BowYoshi]

If he mass lings, mutas+lurkers will slaughter.

[Sambo83]

lol good luck with the lurkers cheif.

[DragonPaladin]

fbat & medic beats lings unless he has adrenal + speed + ubergosu micro. Likewise you could micro M&M properly and prevent him from surround.. vultures are ok, but only as support because they'll get overwhelmed way too easily. I don't reccomend any mines, cause lings are so fast, they'll drag the mines to you. Tanks suck equal, only 15 damage or so, but they possess a fuckload of hp. Siege will splash you own units (lings are melee). gols are good choice, because their relatively high ground damage + cool + high hp and ok armor. If you're really hardcore, you could just go irraded vessels :D

[ShadeZ]

What do firebats medics vultured tanks and science vessels have to do with zvz -__-

absolutely nothing.

[B.A.Baracus]

I used to do a gas/pool build where I'd get ling speed and then lair, because my gas started well ahead of my opponents... but that's the exception not the rule.. if he's showing no sign of lair tech, spend your first hundred gas on lair and force him to spore.. then you can expo and likely gg.


Thats the thing, Ive noticed you have just returned or whatever. This isn't vanilla sc anymore, if your first 100 gas goes to lair tech I assure you you'll be dead my friend. I'm sure I'm not as skilled as you are, but I do know you don't counter fast lair with a lair of your own, you power lings.

[DragonPaladin]

Sorry. I felt that it was slightly relevant to the topic.

[MrBobby]

hehe..... thanks all... except the couple of ppl who just told me i was a noob.... coz... helpful? no. and the person who told me to use m&m ;p not much help when i'm playing zerg. but yeh, i'll deff be giving these a try. and yes, if they go mass ling they usually do get 3 hatch, 2 at main and 1 at natural expansion.

[DragonPaladin]

but yeh, i'll deff be giving these a try.

I think H&M is better to use than M&M seeing as how hydras have 2x hp and 10 damage instead. Plus, they're really cool to micro with when + speed and range.

[Sambo83]

Thats the thing, Ive noticed you have just returned or whatever. This isn't vanilla sc anymore, if your first 100 gas goes to lair tech I assure you you'll be dead my friend. I'm sure I'm not as skilled as you are, but I do know you don't counter fast lair with a lair of your own, you power lings.

lol.. you got that completely backwards.. if you try to power lings and fail, you are dead. There's also the possiblity that you'll win.. but against a good player this is most likely less than 50%. If you lair vs lair your builds are still nearly identical and that won't decide the game.

[kharaa]

if this is for bw, Lurkers lurkers lurkers. make sure to defeat any form of observation he has. with 8 lurkers in a half moon semi circle formation at the front of my base, i've destroyed about 2000 lings, (in continuious waves, i suspect the guy was multihacking) and he never got a inch in to my base. while i decimated him with a super drop, involving about 300 overlords. :D


edit Waiiiiiit, if this is for LT, then i have no idea. i play the hunters, and big game hunters mostly. my strat works for anti ling in BGH or TH

[Sambo83]

I heard lurkers do great against large quantities of mutalisks. Amirite guys??

[Alexisonfire]

just use nukes thats gg rite there

[Cpt.Chronic]

I heard lurkers do great against large quantities of mutalisks. Amirite guys??
Yeah, but you gotta put em in ovies first so they can reach air targets.

[kharaa]

HOWEVER the PROBLEM is this: reasonably frequently, i get comprehensivly slaughtered by a zerg player who has gone mass lings, ie (as far as can tell from scouting) early pool, 2 hatch by main, expansion, all the while pumping lings. oh ps i sometimes (especially on LT, when i dont usually bother with sunks. sunks work better on hunters) pump lings with any extra mins. well, they just flood me with lings and i die. how can i counter this? i could never get my mutas and get the same amount of lings, because they put EVERYTHING into lings (they die totally if i have an ally to save me, coz they have NOTHING vs my mutas). i can't imagine getting enough sunks, even. but should i just make much more sunks? i usually have 2-4. well, you tell me. please. what to do vs a player who goes mass lings? often i know they will, from scouting. sometimes it comes as a nasty suprise. help, please.

Hooked on phonics worked eh?

he said his enemy dies from his mutas, he didn't ask what to do about mutas, atleast not in the post i'm responding too.

by the time someone has the resources to go mass mutalisks, i'm usually up my tech tree to defilers, in which mass air is null imo.

Plague the mutas coming in, swarm, hydra's pwn; lurkers kick the actual reason he posted this thread..

[ShadeZ]

I'd really like to know how you managed to get that far up the tech tree by his mutalisks, there's really nothing you can do to override his superior numbers... if your enemy going to build hydralisks then he'll need to turtle with spore colonies because mutalisks own the hydralisks. Then you just outexpo him. Then you get hive and tech to guardians to take out the spore colonies and there's nothing he can do... but seriously the only way to survive when you're going hydras is to like have 4 spores and you can't expo either because of the air supremacy, and if you're getting lurkers aswell then going to have way less hydras then they mutas.

Wtf can defilers do when you've allready lost?

[kharaa]

By the time the person has enough money to mass mutas, I don't mass such expensive units, i have plenty of time to get to defilers, also, mutas do not own hydras, not with a defiler to help them, dark swarm the hydras and the mutas are gone, either by running or dieing. a defiler with full energy, has enough to plague and put up a darkswarm, always keep a few zerglings around to consume, and you have a VERY effective defense weapon.

[Sambo83]

lolz...kharaa, I would love to play you ZvZ. I'll have you know, I was voted best newbie basher at blizzforums! lol

[kharaa]

lol, i'm not a newbie, i've been playing SC for 9 years.

Buuuutttt, you'd probably beat me! i'm so rusty at melee it's not even funny. those ums lotrish maps have grabbed me and won't let go. =(

[DragonPaladin]

Congradulations. SC has coined a new word. Lotrish

[kharaa]

It's been around for a little over a year(the term) since people like Kampai Su Chi have made maps that weren't based on Lord of the Rings, so they got called lotrish.

[ShadeZ]

By the time the person has enough money to mass mutas, I don't mass such expensive units, i have plenty of time to get to defilers, also, mutas do not own hydras, not with a defiler to help them, dark swarm the hydras and the mutas are gone, either by running or dieing. a defiler with full energy, has enough to plague and put up a darkswarm, always keep a few zerglings around to consume, and you have a VERY effective defense weapon.
Retreat > darkswarm. Zerglings>darkswarm. My economy if you tech to defilers>your economy if you tech to defilers.

Hydralisks do 5 damage to mutalisks at 0 attack and mutalisk 0 defense, and 3.5 damage when hydralisks have 3 attack and mutalisks have 3 armor. Light armor>Explosive damage ftw.

On the other hand, mutalisks do 9 damage allways at even levels.

[MrBobby]

how the hell are u gonna get defilers before mass muta? when u get muta at lair and defiler at hive.
but that's not the problem, the problem is the thousand or so lings eating my sunks
and..... iv been playing on original sc since my bw disk snapped a few weeks ago :( so no lurks. surely you wouldnt get lurks until too late anyway? come to think of it, i've never seen this tactic on bw.... i wonder why

[Cpt.Chronic]

Lings counter lings. You can put your lings in a semi-circle around the top of your ramp (assuming LT or other ramped map) so he has to come up your ramp in a line. Then when you attack you are surrounding and attacking his lings from all sides which will kill his lings much faster then his will kill yours.

Also, you should have your ovie in his base and be able to see if he's going for mass lings, fast lair, or is pumping drones. If he has only a few drones mining and no lair in progress then you will need to pump lings of your own to counter his lings.

[kharaa]

Are you playing LT or something like it?

because to go mass muta, is alot of resources at 100/100 minerals and gas, to get to defilers isn't that hard, as it seems, playing on money maps requires radically different tactics then on non money. as such rushing tech is one of them, 200 resources per mutalisk, compaired to 100 per hydralisk, you can have 2 hydras per 1 muta. plus the fact it's teir 1 tech. if you get mass mutaed early game, i dunno how to help you there.

late game, if they go mass muta, a mixture of a couple devourers and hydras even without the swarm, would be rather effective. (as the acid spores would make the hydras attack rather incredible. ). I assume, because of all the trolling posts i've learned that you have to go a certain path or you won't have the resources to keep up the fight, which is why it's in-effective to go firebats and marines and medics, if they're going mass mutas and spending tons of money in to it. you going hydras with defilers would be more cost effective. To get to your hive is really easy, Spawning pool, Lair, Queens Den, Hive, Defiler mount. this can be done in 10 minutes roughly resources allowed.

Of course i assume that since you said you've gone mass muta, you should know how to defend against it, in that case.. against lings on NON BW, chronics idea is pretty valid.

[ShadeZ]

The thing is, it is very easy for me to get mutas before you have a hive, and if you are getting a hive, I will punish you severely. If you are going to go hive you will absolutely need spore colonies to survive my early mutas and in that case I will force you to turtle and expand

It's not all that expensive to have as many or more mutas then you hydras when I have 3-4 bases to your one. I have never lost to hydras on 1v1 when going mutas.

[kharaa]

touche, Of course you do expand in the process(or you should.. lol)

In money maps imo it's alot more balenced it seems, as certain groups of units decimate others, in these non money ladder maps, it seems only 3 tactics are used by the majority.. in bgh you can build hydras and defilers and shit without worry of being rushed for the most part. or firebats and medics without having to worry about screwing you over in late game.

I'm not trying to say non money maps suck as they bring a different type of gameplay.., but it sure does seem it takes half the units out of the game.. in terran can't use mmf zerg sure as hell don't tech to defilers, protoss i'm not sure on.
then again you do use units differently, in bgh you use tanks and goliaths and battlecruisers religiously, in LT you use tanks and vultures alot i've noticed. not tryign to argue with anyone here, just analysing outloud.

[ShadeZ]

The thing is it just isn't really possible to expand with a hydraling army against a mutaling army, mutalisks are just more maneuverable

Non-money maps are very balanced, the most unbalanced is pvz and that's just 55% wins for z so still pretty balanced.

Terran can use mmf, just only vs zerg. (or to cheese)

Zerg uses defilers against all but zerg. Zerg is made for defilers so using defilers against them is kind of silly.. unless they're turtling and in that case who cares what you do.