Reviews and Advice

[TheBlackAbyss]

Hey.
I've been on Warboard for a short time, and spend most of my time reading the advice given by some of the more experienced players on the forums, also downloading replays and watching them. I have recently also dumped playing fastest maps for the most part (Still do occasionaly) and take part in Hunters and LT more often. The following replay is a match on LT against one of my friends. I'm the Zerg, he's the Terran.

Note: Ignore the last few minutes of the game, with his defence by the leftover of his main. I was just talking to him by then.

So, any advice is welcome on what I can do a bit better to improve.

[own3d0406]

Im not a zerg player so I really cant comment, but your friend sucked. If your going to ask for advice play against a decent player.

[U-238]

He doesn't need to be against a good player to have people account his skill. In fact I prefere watching games vs low skilled players when eveluating skill because the confidence level is higher in the winning player and he probably won't make so many mistakes in his build. (at least that's the way I play and see others play when playing vs noobs)

[own3d0406]

Are you serious? Lets say his opponent made nothing but marines, and he went lurker. How much skill did that take? none. What advice can you give him?
because the confidence level is higher in the winning player and he probably won't make so many mistakes in his build. If he makes no mistakes, whats the point of giving him advice?

[TheBlackAbyss]

My friend is not a Terran player. This was our second match; first match I was Terran and he was Zerg; then I said I'll be Zerg, and for some reason, he chose to be Terran. Forgot to mention that.

But I'm looking simply for advice on the mechanics and basics of what I did do, not what I didn't do or was not forced to do.

[blupp74]

Hey.
I've been on Warboard for a short time, and spend most of my time reading the advice given by some of the more experienced players on the forums, also downloading replays and watching them. I have recently also dumped playing fastest maps for the most part (Still do occasionaly) and take part in Hunters and LT more often. The following replay is a match on LT against one of my friends. I'm the Zerg, he's the Terran.

Note: Ignore the last few minutes of the game, with his defence by the leftover of his main. I was just talking to him by then.

So, any advice is welcome on what I can do a bit better to improve.

Well, I don't play Z either, and yes, your opponent sucked, but here's what I can tell you now:

From what I've seen, no one builds pool first, then builds several sunkens in his base. If spawning pool is built first, it's usually due to zergling rush. Otherwise, Z players usually build a second hatchery first - usually at the nearest expo. Then they build the spawning pool. And the spawning pool is done right around when the second hatchery is, so they make some zerglings, move some drones to the expansion and build the sunkens there.

YOur expansion at the bottom of the map can be awarding, if he doesn't spot you. If he does, it's a bit far away from your main, and easily killed. Z has the advantage of having the hatchery as their unit-making building though, so it's not AS risky as for T or P.
...speak of the devil...your opponent did the exact same thing..

...you tech up to hive, but chose to build NYDUS instead of ultra or defiler?
That's...weird...
Anyway...ehm...hard so say much else. I've seen the advice and replays from people on this board, and you (or your opponent) is doing nothing of it.
Maybe you should read some more`:P

(Your lurker drop would have been far less successful against an experienced player. He would have atleast SOME defense in his main, and he'd certainly have detection in form of turrets and comsat...)

[TheBlackAbyss]

O.K; thanks. That does help some.

As for the nydus part, I didn't even want to tech to hive. I knew I had won and was just wasting recources. Like I said, this was a fun match; neither was taking the end seriously.

Thanks for the hatchery advice. I hadn't quite picked up on that particular point.

Also, I do take some of the advice to heart... just not specifics yet. I try to work more on general speed in the start when assigning my drones, getting the right amount of workers per mineral, keeping my recources down and spending them instead of letting them pile up. Basics like that.

[U-238]

Well first , your split left much to be desired. You were at 12 (which is the easyest posistion to split) and yet you still only got one drone to a different patch by the time they get there. Spliting is an art. Master it.

That gas came waaaay to early. Typacil Z build is 9 ovy, 12 hatch, 11 pool, 12 gas. And you only assinged one drone to mine it. That was a waste of 50 minerals that could've been used for another drone.

Your scout also came too late. Send your 8 or 9 drone to scout. Otherwise you'll end up having to fight through a wall of rines to see what he's up to.

While I liked the idea of a far off expo early it left your nat wide open. A cheap move by T (expanding there and heavily fortifying that expo) would've spelled your doom. Also, as blupp said if T had found that it would've been hard to bounce back from that 300 minerals loss that early in the game.

You've made 3 sunks in your main. Unless you know you're getting droped on then that's totaly useless. The proper place to put those would be at your nat.

>.< niether of you expanded to your nats first. That amazes me. You've got minerals right there next to your base where you can get reinforcements to it quckily and your build the expo on the other side of the map. Furthermore you've got a drone right next to the comand center that's building. Attack the scv with it and kill it off before it's done!

Yea I'ma agree with blupp on this one too. Teching to hive and then placing a nydus canal that isn't even needed anymore is just... stupid.

Overall, you need work. Watch some pro replays from pgtour, gosugamers, or teamliquid and learn the build orders and strats from there.

[TheBlackAbyss]

Ok, thanks again.

Mental notes:
-Split needs work
-Expo closer to main first
-Memorize a basic build order
-Keep better tabs on opponents strat, so buildings and units are not wasted. (I.E. Sunkens.)

Of course, my friend didn't really have a strat that game...

But thanks again everyone. I'll practice some and then post a new replay, better than this one.

[own3d0406]

I never expo at my nat, maybe because Im a paranoid player, but if you expo at your nat, your opponent could easily contain you.

[U-238]

Yes but for Z it's easy to break a contain with lurks. Lurks are good in ZvP and ZvT for contain breaking and you'll rarely get contained in a ZvZ unless the player you're facing is vastly supeirior to you. And look at it this way. If your opponent scouts your far away expo (as he's sure to do) and attacks it you've got to send units down to defend it. By the time that happens it's pretty much already dead anyways. ANd 2 you're forced to build sunks at both your main and your expo because of the two-way angle that the opposition has on you.

[blupp74]

Ok, thanks again.

Mental notes:
-Split needs work
-Expo closer to main first
-Memorize a basic build order
-Keep better tabs on opponents strat, so buildings and units are not wasted. (I.E. Sunkens.)

Of course, my friend didn't really have a strat that game...

But thanks again everyone. I'll practice some and then post a new replay, better than this one.

Personally I think the split is easiest at 6, cause then the workers and minerals are very close to the unit-grid window.
I actually find 12 the hardest (since it's furthest away...can you say "furthest"??).

I'm afraid you'll have to memorize more than one basic build order. If you want to rush, that's one (and this is probably decided before you know anything about your opponent, since rush involved early spawning pool, and you won't have scouted much then). If you want to expand early, that's another one. If you want more fortification before attacking or expanding, that's another one. And then there's what comes after each step. If rush fails/succeeds, what to do after early expo - tech or mass...etc.

Reading these forums can help a little, but what you really have to do is play, play, play. Lose a lot, you will for sure. But then you watch the replays, and see what your opponent did, how you can see what the point of what he's doing is, and how you prevent it from happening next time.
Then you watch other people's replays. People who win all the time. And see what they do that makes them win.

Z players on this forum is Ahzz, U-238 and B.A.Baracus (there are more, of course, but the list will be shortened due to memory leakage). B.A is in the late early stage of learning though...Ahzz is the expert, but personally I've found that watching the experts is sometimes less helpfull when you're a beginner yourself. It's hard to grasp what they do and why, until you've gotten a feel for the game and race you play. So I suggest you study U-238's replays before moving on to Ahzz.

Most of us are at us.east in channel op swbk. And most people are quite helpful. So if you want a game, or coaching, or going through a replay, just go there and I'm sure someone will help you.

[own3d0406]

Yes but for Z it's easy to break a contain with lurks. Lurks are good in ZvP and ZvT for contain breaking and you'll rarely get contained in a ZvZ unless the player you're facing is vastly supeirior to you. And look at it this way. If your opponent scouts your far away expo (as he's sure to do) and attacks it you've got to send units down to defend it. By the time that happens it's pretty much already dead anyways. ANd 2 you're forced to build sunks at both your main and your expo because of the two-way angle that the opposition has on you.
Well, my contains TvZ consists of tanks and bunkers, tanks have longer ranges than lurkers, and Ill usually have turrets or comsat.

[U-238]

Lings + 12 lurks + add a few hydra leftovers means you can take down nearly any early contain which will only consist of, at most, 3 tanks + infantry.

[own3d0406]

I dont know what most people do in a contain, but I send all my units, and slowly move up to their main, kinda like a tank push I geuss, by the time you get 12 lurks Ill have more than 3 tanks.

[U-238]

And by the time I've got 12 lurks I'll be out of my main anyways and have an outside expo :P

[Siege_Commander]

I find the farther away, the easier the split. And when you expo @ nat, for z, lurks and sunks, T, optional bunk/turret and tanks. P, cannons. If you dont expo @ nat, it is so much harder to defend the expo. Say you are 12 LT and opponent is 6 LT. If you expo @ 3, you have to go from 12 to 3 and, go through choke:P But if expo @ nat, just you go down through choke, plus all units will be there, or attacking.

[U-238]

And a smart player will place a few units at the ramp of the expo he's attacking to prevent your units from getting up there and defending it.

[Siege_Commander]

Yeah. For sure 1 goon on hold can buy time for an army to do damage. Lucky the goon fits @ all:P

[own3d0406]

And by the time I've got 12 lurks I'll be out of my main anyways and have an outside expo If theyve done the contain correctly, you shouldnt be able to do that, except on certain maps and certain locations, like LT 12, I think.

I find the farther away, the easier the split. And when you expo @ nat, for z, lurks and sunks, T, optional bunk/turret and tanks. P, cannons. If you dont expo @ nat, it is so much harder to defend the expo. Say you are 12 LT and opponent is 6 LT. If you expo @ 3, you have to go from 12 to 3 and, go through choke But if expo @ nat, just you go down through choke, plus all units will be there, or attacking.If you do expo farther away, theyll rarely attack that location first, since they dont know where it is.

[U-238]

If you do expo farther away, theyll rarely attack that location first, since they dont know where it is.

Ever heard of "scouting"?

If theyve done the contain correctly, you shouldnt be able to do that, except on certain maps and certain locations, like LT 12, I think.

wrong again, Like I just said by the time I've got 12 lurks I'll be out and have expo'd already anyways. On average by the time Z gets its first 4 lurks T only has one or two tanks at most. Add in a few lings to draw fire until the lurks get burrowed and it's bye bye contain.


If you'd like to find out then, why don't we schedule a 1v1 sometime and I'll show you what I mean. :)

[own3d0406]

Ever heard of "scouting"?



wrong again, Like I just said by the time I've got 12 lurks I'll be out and have expo'd already anyways. On average by the time Z gets its first 4 lurks T only has one or two tanks at most. Add in a few lings to draw fire until the lurks get burrowed and it's bye bye contain.


If you'd like to find out then, why don't we schedule a 1v1 sometime and I'll show you what I mean. :)

I dont think we're understanding each other here, yes they will scout and I have heard of scouting, but your probably going to expo after they scout, so theyll attack your main first, since they dont know where youve expoed to or if youve expoed at all. You probably will have more lurks than tanks, but Tanks>lurks, plus if theyre doing a contain, theyre not going to send just 2 tanks, its going to be tanks and infantry, use the infatry units to attack the zerglings while tanks attack lurks, by the time youve got them burrowed, at least one is going to be dead. And no, Im not going to play 1vs1, because I know Ill lose, but please, lose the ego.

[Siege_Commander]

He has no ego, he is just going to whoop you by following all that he has stated:P

[MidnightGladius]

owned, scouting is a continuous process. You don't just stop after the 9worker scout :P

When the T first pushes out, it's healthy to send an SCV to each of the clear mains and then patrolling from there to that main's natural.

[blupp74]

Ever heard of "scouting"?



wrong again, Like I just said by the time I've got 12 lurks I'll be out and have expo'd already anyways. On average by the time Z gets its first 4 lurks T only has one or two tanks at most. Add in a few lings to draw fire until the lurks get burrowed and it's bye bye contain.


If you'd like to find out then, why don't we schedule a 1v1 sometime and I'll show you what I mean. :)

2 tanks + infantry can beat 4 lurks + zerglings, just as the opposite is equally true. It all depends on who's handling the forces. Each force has its advantages and drawbacks. So there :P

[own3d0406]

owned, scouting is a continuous process. You don't just stop after the 9worker scout

When the T first pushes out, it's healthy to send an SCV to each of the clear mains and then patrolling from there to that main's natural. What if its an 8 player map? Will you really search every main and nat?

He has no ego, he is just going to whoop you by following all that he has stated Hes going to woop me with 4 lurks and a couple of zerglings? maybe he'll woop you, but Im not going to lose to that.

[MidnightGladius]

When was the last time you played 1v1 on an 8-player map?

[Siege_Commander]

No idiot will play 1v1 on hunters lol:P

[own3d0406]

When was the last time you played 1v1 on an 8-player map? I was exagerating when I said 8 player maps, but there are plenty of 2,3,or 4 player maps that just have to many resource areas to constantly scout out every resource area.

[blupp74]

I was exagerating when I said 8 player maps, but there are plenty of 2,3,or 4 player maps that just have to many resource areas to constantly scout out every resource area.

Well, not really. On Hunters, yes. But every other map I've played, even if it's more or less unknown to me, is quite easy. Especially being T, with Comsat. And dropping mines with the vultures.

P shouldn't be too hard either. I'm jealous of their invisible scout...

As Z you can leave a burrowed unit there. If you don't want to research burrow, you can hold a lurker there. Of course, that could be seen as a waste of lurkers...but if/when your opponent builds a base there you can just stop the hold and let the fun begin :)

[own3d0406]

Well, not really. On Hunters, yes. But every other map I've played, even if it's more or less unknown to me, is quite easy. Especially being T, with Comsat. And dropping mines with the vultures.
TvZ, your not going to make vultures, and you can comsat only 4 times. Maps like The Eye, have 12 places you can expo, 14 if your playing 1vs1, itll take too long to scout every single resource area.

[blupp74]

TvZ, your not going to make vultures, and you can comsat only 4 times. Maps like The Eye, have 12 places you can expo, 14 if your playing 1vs1, itll take too long to scout every single resource area.

No one is stopping you from making vultures. Chances are you'll have an addon to your factory (for tanks) anyway, so there's not really that much that stands in the way.
(In fact I just watched a Boxer VOD where he made a total of 4 marines against Z. The rest was just goliaths, vultures and tanks. So it CAN be done. It's just not the most usual way).

You can scan 4 times with ONE comsat. And that's before the recharge.
Z don't build hatheries in 2 seconds, you know.
Besides, you can expand too. And he has to keep track of that as well.

A map like LT has a few expansions too, and I've never really found it a big problem to keep track of my opponents expansions. First of all, once you know where his main is, you can make a pretty safe assumption where he'll expand. And any remote expansion (from his main) will be easier to kill off as it will be a) far from his main, and b) probably closer to your main.

I make it a habit of sending a marine to all the mains on the map, except where he is. The marines are sure to die if he goes there, of course, but then you'll know he's either planning on taking that expansion, or at the least he knows you're keeping an eye out.

...and about "itll take too long to scout every single resource area". Too long for what? You got something better to do? If he's busy expanding, and he's at your level or lower, then he's probably too busy to keep an eye out for your expansions. And for each expansion you have, you have an additional comsat to keep track of his expansions.

Any pieces falling into place yet? :P

[own3d0406]

No one is stopping you from making vultures. Chances are you'll have an addon to your factory (for tanks) anyway, so there's not really that much that stands in the way.
(In fact I just watched a Boxer VOD where he made a total of 4 marines against Z. The rest was just goliaths, vultures and tanks. So it CAN be done. It's just not the most usual way).

You can scan 4 times with ONE comsat. And that's before the recharge.
Z don't build hatheries in 2 seconds, you know.
Besides, you can expand too. And he has to keep track of that as well.

A map like LT has a few expansions too, and I've never really found it a big problem to keep track of my opponents expansions. First of all, once you know where his main is, you can make a pretty safe assumption where he'll expand. And any remote expansion (from his main) will be easier to kill off as it will be a) far from his main, and b) probably closer to your main.

I make it a habit of sending a marine to all the mains on the map, except where he is. The marines are sure to die if he goes there, of course, but then you'll know he's either planning on taking that expansion, or at the least he knows you're keeping an eye out.

...and about "itll take too long to scout every single resource area". Too long for what? You got something better to do? If he's busy expanding, and he's at your level or lower, then he's probably too busy to keep an eye out for your expansions. And for each expansion you have, you have an additional comsat to keep track of his expansions.

Any pieces falling into place yet? :P

-_-... Ive been owned...

[blupp74]

-_-... Ive been owned...

Wee! I've never pwnd anyone before! Hurrah!

[Siege_Commander]

lol. 3 scvs can mean you being prepared or "caught with your pants down"

[TheBlackAbyss]

While I am amused at the turn my thread has taken in terms of topic, I have another question.

I have been playing more games and noticed _slow_ yet definite increase in skill, at least on my basics (With Zerg.) But I have a question.

I was in a late game on LT, 2v2 with a Terran as my ally. By the late game mark, it was 2v1, as we had eliminated his partner.

He started turtling on his cliff with mass dragoons and cannons, and I was looking for a decent way to hack into it. Darkswarm came to mind, along with lings; but I found that the lings died too quickly to provide distractions for the defiler to climb the ramp and provide a decent swarm.

I repeated the trick with Ultralisks, only 8, and had slightly better success due to more time to cast Darkswarm. In the end, the combination of 6 ultralisks, 6 lings for feeding the Defiler, and Darkswarm with Guardians acting as a pincer at his nexus paid off.

(On a final note, he was playing 3)

Was this a practical strategy? And sorry for no replay; forgot to save it, and I'm not impressed enough with my minor increase in skill to show it again.

[U-238]

Well depending on the amount of time it took you to take out his ally you should've already be well underway with ultra/ling with ds. I'd say this strat is perfectly normal as it's the same thing I would've used (except more lings and ultras with no gaurds) and just get the filer near the area and if I remember corectly he can cast it uphill as long as he can see up there. So yes it's a viable strat.

[Siege_Commander]

yeah, as long as it is not out of the spell range. Ultra/ling with ds is standerd me thinks. Bt what was your terran ally doing? Were there mines? At least sieged tanks? i hope.:(

[TheBlackAbyss]

He had definitly more skill than I did. We had planned that he would do the main push towards the protoss at 6 while I built up for the attack on 3. It worked at 6, turning it 2v1, and he used his leftover tanks and infantry to act as a contain for 3 while I moved into position.

That cliff right beside 3's ramp is very well placed for seige tanks.

[Siege_Commander]

What cliff? If you are talking about the one right next to the nat, then yeah. If not, elaborate please.

[TheBlackAbyss]

Heh, yes the one that's just in sight of the natural. :P

[MidnightGladius]

I'm sorry to bring this up again, but owned, remember, one unit on patrol can scout 2-3 expo locations (on LT, at least) at once. That helps a lot.

[Siege_Commander]

Yeah. Just make it patrol between the nat and mains of lt, or any other pgt map.

[own3d0406]

I'm sorry to bring this up again, but owned, remember, one unit on patrol can scout 2-3 expo locations (on LT, at least) at once. That helps a lot.
Yeah yeah, Ive already learned my lesson:concern:

[TheBlackAbyss]

I'm sorry to bring this up again, but owned, remember, one unit on patrol can scout 2-3 expo locations (on LT, at least) at once. That helps a lot.
Thats something I might want to try someday.

[WickedImposter]

hmm. i prefer just to stick my scv outside his base. im sorry if that comment wasent on topic forgot to read through lol