Zealots and dragoons

[own3d0406]

Whats the best way to counter zealots and dragoons with tanks? I always lose several tanks when I unsiege them which is why ny tank pushes always fail:mad:

[blupp74]

Whats the best way to counter zealots and dragoons with tanks? I always lose several tanks when I unsiege them which is why ny tank pushes always fail:mad:

Please let me in on this secret if you should find out.

Seriously though...why are you unsieging them in the middle of a battle?
You have some other units there too, that can deal with short range, don't you? Like vultures...or gols...

[own3d0406]

Yes most of the time, but they always target my vultures before my tanks, and upgraded zealot speed makes it worse. And this is including zealot drops.

[Ktan]

Vultures with mines can be pretty nasty against both 'lots and 'goons if you time it just right. Even then, their speed vs 'lots is good and their damage vs 'goons is ok, if I remember rightly. Just support with some Vultures. Goliaths wouldn't be a bad idea anti-air either, as a contingency plan.

(I feel like I should be saying Wraiths too, but I don't know why.)

[own3d0406]

I dont think you should have wraiths, because toss will usually have observres and mass goons, and their ground attack is too weak.

[Spartan-II]

Be careful with the mines, if they have upped Zealot speed they can run the Zealots into your tanks and have the mines blow you to hell. Make sure you plant them in a way so that the mines don't splash you.

[Ktan]

I dont think you should have wraiths, because toss will usually have observres and mass goons, and their ground attack is too weak.

See, I knew Wraiths were a bad idea.

Maybe I was jumping the gun and expecting Carriers too.

It is hard to use the mines, so if your going to do that, send the Vultures out ahead of the Tanks first. their skrimishing should not only stop the mines smegging your own tanks, it should hopefully also tie up their men.

[MidnightGladius]

Keep your forces like this...

T: sieged tanks
V: Vults
E: Enemies
M: Mines

EEE M M M V V T
EEE M M M V V T
EEE M M M V V T
EEE M M M V V T
EEE M M M V V T

Of course, this is assuming you have a nice, 1-way direction of attack. Flanking makes it difficult, but you should get the general idea.

[GroG]

You are going to want to leap-frog your tanks, if you are pushing. Of course, you are lying mines and such, but just so you don't get raped while moving your push, only unsiege like half of your tanks and move them a screen or so, then siege. Then unsiege the half you left behind, and move them, etc. That way, half your tanks are always sieged. This is leapfrogging.

Only leapfrog if you have to, like if the toss is sitting just outside sight range with flanking position goon/zeal/etc. Otherwise, your push will be too slow. Use an scv to run ahead, or comsat scan, to see where his troops are before you move tanks. If they aren't near your push, you are free to unsiege everything and move out. But if he is, that's when you leapfrog.

You need to get fast at sieging (press the hotkey) and laying mines, especially if you quick-push.

Also if you are slow-pushing/leapfrogging, send out scv's to expos, so that when you cut off portions of the map with your push you can take out his expo with vults/tanks, or expo to those areas you have cut off.

[Siege_Commander]

And if the terrain is buildable, bring an scv to build turrts for both aa and detection.

[DarkLStrike]

Leap-frogging tanks are important as grog said. Or they'd get overrun when they are all unsieged.

[TheBlackAbyss]

This may be obvious, but more often than not many people simply use the attack move command, unless paying a modicum of attention. If you were to use one or two uprgraded vultures and move them about, you could buy some extra time for your tanks.

Also, if you have mines placed elsewhere, this serves as a lead-on towards the mines.

[own3d0406]

I see, Ill try leapfrogging my tanks, but what if Im the one being attacked and all my tanks are sieged?
And if the terrain is buildable, bring an scv to build turrts for both aa and detection. I dont see how turrets help against zealots and dragoons...

[B.A.Baracus]

Turrets stop observers, lot bombing and DT.

[Ahzz]

not lot bombing itself, it slows down in a way that the next attack will either be slower or WITHOUT lot bombing

[raylu]

Midnight sort of covered this, but vulture support is extremely important. Lay mines in front and either use the vultures to target the Zealots or get in their way (especially with speed).

[own3d0406]

Turrets stop observers, lot bombing and DT Ive found that they simply move out of the range of the turrets, so they take minimal or no damage.

Midnight sort of covered this, but vulture support is extremely important. Lay mines in front and either use the vultures to target the Zealots or get in their way (especially with speed). Thats good if your doing a contain I think, but I wont have time to lay mines when Im defending or caught off gaurd.

[blupp74]

Keep your forces like this...

T: sieged tanks
V: Vults
E: Enemies
M: Mines

EEE M M M V V T
EEE M M M V V T
EEE M M M V V T
EEE M M M V V T
EEE M M M V V T

Of course, this is assuming you have a nice, 1-way direction of attack. Flanking makes it difficult, but you should get the general idea.

Couldn't it be an idea, if possible (with the laying of mines) to keep the vultures BEHIND the tanks? You only want the vultures to fire at the zealots...and if they're infront of the tanks, not only might they target the goons, the goons might go for the vultures instead (if they're in range, and the goons are out of range for the tanks). And goons, as we all know, kill vultures silly. And with the vultures gone, there's nothing to protect the tanks from the zealots.

Of course, this is coming from someone who admittedly sucks hard at TvP in general, and zeal/goon attacks specifically. I haven't even tried this myself. THen again I haven't had a successful z/g encounter with a player that didn't suck, until today. And I had 40% tanks, 30% vults and 30% gols.

[own3d0406]

Couldn't it be an idea, if possible (with the laying of mines) to keep the vultures BEHIND the tanks? Thats a great idea since vultures are mainly used to kill lots, their life span would be lengthened.

[MidnightGladius]

The point is for the vultures to block the zeals from melee-ing the tanks. And if they're in front, the vults can lay their mines offensively, if necessary.

[Siege_Commander]

Kinda. Cuz the zeals deal damage faster than vults, so tanks would be more damaged. And they cost more. Another thing, the whole minefield could and probably will be used against you:P Siegey rests.

[Siege_Commander]

Aww, middy posted before me:(

[WickedImposter]

siegy rests? lol. anyways, vults behind the tanks would let the zlots come closer, and it would take a little longer for them to kill zlots. also, if your tanks target the lots, ff them on goons. tanks are 50% less effective against lots because of explosive dmg, but they are useful for taking down the shields. also, the mines should have hopefully killed some zlots. also, watch out for friendly splash mines.

[blupp74]

Well, ignoring the math of this, my point is:
If you have the vults BEHIND the tanks, then the goons will not fire at the vults, cause their range is exceeded by the tanks. So the lots move in, and chug away at the tanks. Vults may fire slower than lots, but tanks can take some beating. And the amount of vults you lose while laying mines (goons hit them, tanks splash them, mines detonate) put behind the tanks would, I think, kill zealots fast enough.

However, I suck at even the standard push-theme, so maybe someone a little better at micro should try this instead.

[Siege_Commander]

actually, that would work, like make the mine field like say, @ 8-10 range, so when goons come, either they cant touch mines, or go through, and get damaged by tanks/mines. And the zeals def will take some damage, so they will be killed quicker by the vults. I have no micro but i may try this:P

[blupp74]

actually, that would work, like make the mine field like say, @ 8-10 range, so when goons come, either they cant touch mines, or go through, and get damaged by tanks/mines. And the zeals def will take some damage, so they will be killed quicker by the vults. I have no micro but i may try this:P

If you succeed (or anyone else) please post a rep. Mmm'kay?

[GroG]

You want your vults to take fire as opposed to tanks; they are much less costly, speed onto the scene of battle much faster, and build a ton faster, and require no gas.

Lay mines out front, and then fire a few rounds at oncoming zeals, then, as the zeals come towards you, run back into the tanks so that the zeals die to mines. Also, if they suicide a few zeals to drag mines towards your tanks, you can potentially kill those zeals with vults before they hit your tanks. This also protects you from zealot bombs, as well.

As for the guy saying "what if my tanks are sieged and he attacks?". If you have all your tanks lumped together and sieged, then you are quick-pushing. If you are slow pushing, this will never happened, as your tanks will be spread out, you will always be mining, and you will just be extending an already existing push. I hope to god you either have a superior force, or you have already laid mines properly to protect your clumped (I'm assuming) tanks. Vults move way faster than tanks, so you must keep tabs on your vults and move them with your tanks, not ahead of them to get raped, although you do want them a bit ahead so you can lay mines and quickly siege and move back vults back into tanks if you need to.

Also, as you get better, you realize that you will be constantly resetting your rally point of your factories to the battle, as you will need to constantly reinforce your push and speed it up so that your opponent doesn't easily tech and break it with either arbs or cars.

Hope that explains.

[blupp74]

You want your vults to take fire as opposed to tanks; they are much less costly, speed onto the scene of battle much faster, and build a ton faster, and require no gas.

Lay mines out front, and then fire a few rounds at oncoming zeals, then, as the zeals come towards you, run back into the tanks so that the zeals die to mines. Also, if they suicide a few zeals to drag mines towards your tanks, you can potentially kill those zeals with vults before they hit your tanks. This also protects you from zealot bombs, as well.

As for the guy saying "what if my tanks are sieged and he attacks?". If you have all your tanks lumped together and sieged, then you are quick-pushing. If you are slow pushing, this will never happened, as your tanks will be spread out, you will always be mining, and you will just be extending an already existing push. I hope to god you either have a superior force, or you have already laid mines properly to protect your clumped (I'm assuming) tanks. Vults move way faster than tanks, so you must keep tabs on your vults and move them with your tanks, not ahead of them to get raped, although you do want them a bit ahead so you can lay mines and quickly siege and move back vults back into tanks if you need to.

Also, as you get better, you realize that you will be constantly resetting your rally point of your factories to the battle, as you will need to constantly reinforce your push and speed it up so that your opponent doesn't easily tech and break it with either arbs or cars.

Hope that explains.

I still think there's some logic to my previous statement (or question), but the last two days I've practised the normal tank/vult push (both fast and slow) and gotten the hang of it a little more (still need lots more practise though).

And...yeah...I basically agree to what you say.

[own3d0406]

GorG, I wish you would post more.

[Siege_Commander]

lol Its GroG

[own3d0406]

Your posts are SO helpful siege commander...

[own3d0406]

what if Im caught off, I mean like no mines, and vultures are scattered all over the place?

[WickedImposter]

you should micro all your vults to a point a little behind your tanks, and retreat tanks. then, charge in with vults and siege tanks. i think. anyways, i think that if they have speedlots, they can lure your mines into your own tanks.

[blupp74]

you should micro all your vults to a point a little behind your tanks, and retreat tanks. then, charge in with vults and siege tanks. i think. anyways, i think that if they have speedlots, they can lure your mines into your own tanks.

Thata depends on how many vults you have there.
Have enough of them, and not even a zeal bomb will help, because they get killed off faster than the mines pop up.

[own3d0406]

How many vultures do I need per tank?

[blupp74]

How many vultures do I need per tank?

Oh...difficult question...but maybe 3-4 per tank? The vults get killed off all the time (that thing about them being cannon fodder really is true) so it's hard to say. But the main object for the vultures is to keep the tanks alive as long as possible.

My problem is that I really don't want a single unit to die, which makes me a little too careful. But that's not the point. It doesn't matter if your units die in this case. What matters is that you kill more of HIS units.

With the vultures infront, you'll have some of them laying mines, some will fire at zealots (and kill them pretty fast), some will fire at the dragoons (drawing fire). Meanwhile, tanks will kill (both zeals and goons I guess), and mines will kill. When the smoke clears you should have most of your tanks left, and more vultures coming from your factories.

It's funny how I can watch replays, see tactics, think of something that seems more logical (like my statement about vultures behind the tanks) and then find myself executing the same tactic I see in the replay, and...gee...it works!

So far I've had most success vs the comp (Ahzz AI) though...but I've had some success against real players too.

[blupp74]

what if Im caught off, I mean like no mines, and vultures are scattered all over the place?

There really shouldn't be a scenario where you're caught off. You have your factories rally-point set to the battle, so the vultures go there (speed upgraded, of course) really fast. Either you killed off all his units, so even if you only have a few tanks left, he has no units there (and your vultures will get there very soon), or he won the battle, in which case you have no units left there to be caught off.

(That would be a good time to set your rally point somewhere else....)

Guess he too could have units on the way there...and the closer you've pushed to his base, the faster his units will get there...
Maybe you could unsiege your tanks so you can get out quickly if you spot his units coming. Then when the vultures arrive (like wicked said, I think) you run them infront, pop down the mines, and siege the tanks, and the game can start again.

[Siege_Commander]

you should scout in front anyways with a scv, and keep it there. But i dont hink all of your vults would be away or killed and tanks not. How is that possible anyway? i mean, i would use like 3 vults for scouting, mebbe 2, not all of them. But if you leave your tanks withno vults, they should at least be behind mines.:P

[Cpt.Chronic]

To the beat of "Where it's at" by Beck:

Zealots and goons you just clap your hands and just clap your hands

Where it's at
I got two dragoons and zealot bomb
Where it's at
I got two dragoons and zealot bomb
Where it's at

[robot voice]
2-DRAGOONS-AND-A-ZEALOT-BOMB

I couldn't help it. Every time I saw this thread I kept singing that to myself. Now all of you must suffer my fate!

[IrishDutchman]

Since this thread has strayed pretty OT, I'm gonna be an attention whore and ask something completely irrevelant. How do you kill mass cannons with reavers in PvP? I was playing a 2v2 and that happened to me. I could just smell a carrier fleet coming, but I couldn't focus on anti air because I needed to defend vs. the other player too.

[blupp74]

Since this thread has strayed pretty OT, I'm gonna be an attention whore and ask something completely irrevelant. How do you kill mass cannons with reavers in PvP? I was playing a 2v2 and that happened to me. I could just smell a carrier fleet coming, but I couldn't focus on anti air because I needed to defend vs. the other player too.

Well, if it's JUST mass cannons, then one reaver will do, if you have the time (which you don't of course, but still), since reaver range exceeds cannon range.

[own3d0406]

How the heck is this thread off topic? CptChronic just posted a song, but at least it had something to do with zealots and dragoons.

[Siege_Commander]

What? and why were you playin 1v2? Or did your partner get eliminated? yeah, static range is 7, whille reaver is 8. OT again, but what is the range of an unsieged tank? 7? 8?

[MidnightGladius]

Unsieged tank is 5. Sieged tank is like... 13.

And Nasty, remember, scouts beat carriers on cost if nothing else interferes too much, so you can really just keep pumping your ground mass and get some scouts.

[blupp74]

Unsieged tank is 5. Sieged tank is like... 13.

And Nasty, remember, scouts beat carriers on cost if nothing else interferes too much, so you can really just keep pumping your ground mass and get some scouts.

Only 5?? But since tanks range is longer than lurkers, it must mean they have only 4 range...and I thought marines had 4, upgraged 5...and marines have shorter range than lurks...or did I get some math wrong?

[Siege_Commander]

Middy is wrong:P Blupp is right. Mebbe not though... Lurks<range of tanks(unsieged) I think lurk range is 6. So mebbe the tanks are 7?

[Ahzz]

seriously, why the shit bother making stupid questions and stuff like that. Marine range upgraded or lurk range, it doesn't matter in least way, all you gotta know is that if unsieged tanks have better range or what, which is clear. Knowing some exact range values doesn't matter a shit. Belive me, I bet none of the korean progamers know the exact values either, and yet they do just fine eh?

[MidnightGladius]

Oops, yeah, my bad - tank is 7, lurk is 6. Static D is all 7.

[WickedImposter]

and sieged tank is 12 middy not 13.

[Siege_Commander]

Isnt 12 max? And thanks:P

[blupp74]

seriously, why the shit bother making stupid questions and stuff like that. Marine range upgraded or lurk range, it doesn't matter in least way, all you gotta know is that if unsieged tanks have better range or what, which is clear. Knowing some exact range values doesn't matter a shit. Belive me, I bet none of the korean progamers know the exact values either, and yet they do just fine eh?

Oooh...sounding a bit aggressive, are we?
Sometimes there's no good reason for wanting to know things. You just want to know them anyway.

[WickedImposter]

lol. think ahzz woke up on the wrong side of the bed. but hes right in a wierd way. you dont really need to know exact values as long as you now that this outranges that.

[Superiorwolf]

Mines can kill dts ^^

[own3d0406]

It went from zealots and goons to reavers and cannons, to the range of tanks, and now a random post about mines...WTF??!!

[blupp74]

It went from zealots and goons to reavers and cannons, to the range of tanks, and now a random post about mines...WTF??!!

It's called life, and everything in it can change instantly.
I suggest you get used to it, or you will feel abused and bruised before you hit 25 :P

[WickedImposter]

yup. thats life(whic his my responce to all those whiners). anywys mines to kill dts but hate how sometimes they all go for 1 thing and wastes tons.

[TheBlackAbyss]

Out of curiousity, does anyone have a replay of a really well execute tank push on LT I could watch?

[lammas]

Heres one couldnt find any better example for now. Shows tank placement and micro and such but that isnt really the most basic build order for tank push so if you need build order for it too post. ^^

[WickedImposter]

i did one once against ahzzs ai. but you cant watch reps with ahzzs ai :(

[TheBlackAbyss]

Aight, thanks Lammas... I already sort-of know a build order for tank push, although I wont say it, because I know it's wrong in about 3 spots.:concern:

[WickedImposter]

ahh say it anyways. here on WB the most well do is correct you. no flamming here. and i need a BO for tank push too lol.

[blupp74]

Aight, thanks Lammas... I already sort-of know a build order for tank push, although I wont say it, because I know it's wrong in about 3 spots.:concern:

...and really...what makes a BO "right" is if it works for you. There might be other, theoretically more "correct" BO's, but you're the player, and it's you it has to work for. And if you have no problem with your BO, then stick to it.
If it fails most of the time...well...then you should reconsider it.

[WickedImposter]

blupps right. you could probably make your own BO, and it might sound riduculous to us, but if you get it to work it dosent really matter.

[TheBlackAbyss]

Heh. I love this forum.
Way better than those large forums where you go to post an idea and get flamed 18 times in 30 seconds.
And then get an agreeable response.

All I need to know really is when exactly to build the first factory, and the second. From there I know what to do.

[blupp74]

Heh. I love this forum.
Way better than those large forums where you go to post an idea and get flamed 18 times in 30 seconds.
And then get an agreeable response.

All I need to know really is when exactly to build the first factory, and the second. From there I know what to do.

Well, let's see what I have in my head...

8 depot
10 barracks. Scout with SCV that built barracks. Make 1 marine when barracks is done. If you are against P and you see double gates, he might be going for fast zealots. Make no more marines in that case. If you see cybernetic core (implicating dragoons), keep pumping marines. Make around 4-5 of them.
12 gas
14 depot
~16 Factory

By now you have enough SCV's so that when factory #1 is building (around halfway) you can start Factory #2. When fac #1 is complete you'll have the necessary minerals for addon.
If fast zealots, pump vultures and research vulture speed. If dragoons, then start building a tank and reserach spider mines. When the tank is done, start building a vulture. Your first vulture should be coming out around the time mines are researched.

If you feel frisky, take your tank and vulture, along with your marines and a few SCV's, and go get him. If you wanna play it safe, plant the mines outside your base (below the ramp if there is one) and build more units.

Just be aware, if you're going for him, that he might be going for you at that time. And 4 marines, 1 siegeless tank and a vulture maybe doesn't feel so mighty against 2-3 dragoons and a couple of zealots. If yous scv survived you can keep it outside his base to see if he's coming or not.

If he's Terran, you'll want to see if he makes an addon to his factory (-ies) or not. If not, he's making fast vults, so mines won't be much use. If you feel daring, make addon and tanks. Tanks kill vults easily (they do little damage to tanks). Problem is you might not get tank in time. Or you can just counter with vultures of your own. If your factories came up at the same time, you'll have more vultures when he gets there.

If you see him making 2 factories, he might not have much of an air defence. So you *could* make 2 starports and make wraiths for harrass. Accompanied by a few sieged tanks this can be death to an opponent. But it can also completely fail.

That was more than you asked for, but what the heck...it's nice to type on my keyboard :P

[WickedImposter]

oh and if your against zerg you should go mm with tanks for support and svs. if hes going muta/ling, it dosent hurt to add a valk or 2.

[blupp74]

oh and if your against zerg you should go mm with tanks for support and svs. if hes going muta/ling, it dosent hurt to add a valk or 2.



and in that case, I'd have atleast 2 barracks before starting factory. Sometimes 3 (if you scout muta but no hydra/lurk).

[TheBlackAbyss]

While that may be excess blupp, it's welcomed. I've been playing zerg a lot lately, but now that I understand just how much improvement I have to do, I feel like testing the other races as well, with the various strats. Therefore, your information is very much appreciated.
:)

[WickedImposter]

and in that case, I'd have atleast 2 barracks before starting factory. Sometimes 3 (if you scout muta but no hydra/lurk).

ya because rines and meds can own other zerg combos, but lurk will shread rines, so youll need to get tanks and svs. just elaborating on your post.

[GroG]

To add on to blupps TvZ:

Regular builds:
3 Rax M/M/F into expo with +1 attack is good vs muta harass builds, or lurk/ling (if you only move back a bit, take out a lurk, move back, etc). Add a couple more rax once expo is online, then either 2 facts vs. hydra/lurk, drop squad -> sci vs. lurk contain/expand, or just pure sci vessel vs hive tech. Pretty aggro build, requires good micro/macro.

2 Rax M/M/F -> tank is a good opening to pressure early expand, but isn't as good vs. 3 hat muta/ling or muta harass. But it's not auto lose, after you move out and you comsat, build some m/m in your base (enough to keep him at bay), and stim around and prevent the harass while you push his nat. You need to be good at multitasking. Putting 2 turrets at minerals, and 1 with rax/facts/ports is good.

2 Rax M/M/F -> drop/sci vessel -> late expo. This is good vs muta and solid vs lurk, but not as good vs hydra/lurk, ling/lurk pushes. This is bread 'n butter TvZ, easiest to execute.

Then you have risky "hide your tech" builds, make sure to always build rines and rally them to your ramp, so your opponent thinks you are playing standard (but if they are good, they will notice variances in marine count, so be careful):

1 Rax rine ->2 fact vult -> expo M/M/F/Tank. This is a build I used to do regularly, I kind of stole it from the some chinese/korean player (can't remember which) in WCG2004 qualifiers. You do the regular 2 fact build like it's TvP, but slow it down a bit due to constantly building rines out of your 1 rax and rallying them to the ramp. Only build 1 add-on on the 2 facts, and get vult speed. Once you are done, you should have around 5-6 vultures with speed. Proceed to run out, run PAST his sunkens, and into his main and harass his drones. You should get a good edge in econ, and possibly force him into something other than muta tech. Either way, while you are harassing him, make an eng. bay for turreting, CC float, and acad and proceed to M/M/F tank with late sci-vessel. You can also get mines and lay mines in the center, pathways, and at expos.

1 Rax rine -> fact/port -> turbo newbie. Good vs. early expand. Rally rines to ramp, etc. When starport is buiding, add-on to your factory. Build tank, then add on to starport and get a dropship. You should also get engineering bay. Pick up 3 marines, 1scv, and tank. While flying, research siege on tanks, then add a second rax and get academy. You should get there in plenty of time before lurks and muta, but if he puts a sunken near his ridge and an ovie spotting, you'll have to take out the sunken first then stop his expo. Build a bunker, and several turrets. Expand and make M/M/F and such.

Of course, there are others. But here's some good TvZ things to get the blood flowing. The hide tech ones are good for some surprise wins, or in a 5 games series with someone you know, just mix them in for a game.

[WickedImposter]

thanks grog. that was extremely helpful.