The Valkyrie

[blupp74]

I know a lot of people's instict reaction will be to go "No, that's completely unnecessary. Use this and that unit instead", but please don't.

I'm asking what you think of the usefulness of Valkyries against Carriers and mass wraiths. Since in my TvT and TvP seem to fail mostly (or hardest) against Carriers or mass Wraiths...

I've been told that a bunch of Valkyries, and their rockets, work wonders against Carriers' Interceptors. Not the carrier itself, but the interceptors. And any observer hiding among the Carriers. So if I had, say, 8-10 Valkyries, and maybe 6-8 Wraiths, and use the Valkyries to kill off the Interceptors and any observers, and then mop up the rest with Cloaked Wraiths...could that work?

And with mass Wraiths...well...they may be weak against ground, but they're so mobile, they're usually not where my Goliaths are. And when they get there, the Wraiths are cloaked. And when I scan, my Goliaths are dead.
How would Valkyries en mass work against Wraiths en mass?

[U-238]

Well valks take longer to shoot and hit their targets since they use the missle standard. However since more often than not carriers and wraiths are stacked I'd say it would at least have some merit. Allthough I'd say target the carriers with everything not just wraiths.

[Siege_Commander]

Well doesnt the carrier have a max armor of like 4? That would cut the valks damage in halfO_O

[IrishDutchman]

I wouldn't know about countering wraiths, but I'd say the valk/wraith combo against carriers is worth a shot. Try making a custom map and checking it out before testing it on Bnet though. How many HP does an interceptor have again? Because if they make it back to the carrier before they die, their shields charge up back to max.
It might be more effective to spend the valk money on more wraiths. It depends on how fast those interceptors actually die.

5104

[Siege_Commander]

they have 80 total me thinks.

[gordomay]

blupp, I can see what your saying. With the val. the splash damage is where it's at. If you have enough val. then yes I could see that happening, with the carriers and mass wraiths. Throw in the wraiths for back-up. Make sure the armor and weapon upgrades are to the max.

[WickedImposter]

ya. blupp you do show merit. however im not sure if the valks will freeze up or not against amss interceptors. another thing valks are good for is against mutas. 1-2 valks and gols will crush any muta-ling out there

[ShadeZ]

Well doesnt the carrier have a max armor of like 4? That would cut the valks damage in halfO_O
That's why the point of the valks was to get the INTERCEPTORS destroyed ^^

[blupp74]

ya. blupp you do show merit. however im not sure if the valks will freeze up or not against amss interceptors. another thing valks are good for is against mutas. 1-2 valks and gols will crush any muta-ling out there

Well, Valkyries kill mutas silly. I'd still stick with marines for the lings though. And probably the mutas too (I very rarely build an armory in TvZ, so I never have Valkyries...but it would indeed be a nice addition).

Hmmm...I wonder how well an army of Valkyries and bats+medics would fare against mutaling. Since you're guaranteed that the valks will only fire against the mutas, and the bats will only go for the lings, with 0 micro...
...and if both mutas and lings go for the bats, and kill them off, the lings can do nothing to the valkyries, which will proceed in slaughtering the mutas.

Yeah, I DEFINETLY have to try that one out.

[WickedImposter]

OMFG LOL! save me that replay. that would be hilarious. but then again, if they kill off your bats, then the zlings will be free to cause soem damage. but it would really defeat the purpose of muta-ling, as normally unit ai targets the stronger unit, the mutalisk. but with valkryies... hey, as an added plus, after you kill off their mutas you can go and ovie raid lol

[blupp74]

OMFG LOL! save me that replay. that would be hilarious. but then again, if they kill off your bats, then the zlings will be free to cause soem damage. but it would really defeat the purpose of muta-ling, as normally unit ai targets the stronger unit, the mutalisk. but with valkryies... hey, as an added plus, after you kill off their mutas you can go and ovie raid lol

Well, i'd keep some marines and tanks at my base, i guess.

I LOVE hunting ovies with mass valks. THey...splash so lovely.

[U-238]

Well any smart Z player who sees valk + bats is going to add in scourge. bat+meds with no air support. Now that's funney. :P

[blupp74]

Well any smart Z player who sees valk + bats is going to add in scourge. bat+meds with no air support. Now that's funney. :P

True, true...but that's assuming they have enough scourge and split them properly. But I guess that's part of the "smart Z" bit.

BTW...assuming I had valks, bats and meds, but mix in a few marines...and there come the mutas and scourge and lings...what will the marines fire at?

[U-238]

Probably the mutas, however if there are only a few rines then the mutas will probably have little trouble with them, simply by ffing.

[IrishDutchman]

Well any smart Z player who sees valk + bats is going to add in scourge. bat+meds with no air support. Now that's funney.

Why not just rape them with hydralisks? As far as I know bats wither and die vs. them.


oh...nevermind, we're talking about mutaling :D
Scourge is usually a stupid decision vs. valks. Except if you come from at least two sides at a time.

[GroG]

The reason people don't use valkyries vs. carriers is because starcraft can only generate so many sprites on the screen at a time, and since the carrers will be launching all their interceptors, a lot of the times the valks won't fire.

And the valk build TvZ is very good once you have your first expo up and want to do some population control. A lot of zergs expo out of control and just contain you midgame (Lurk contain, or muta harass, into double expo) and overrun you. Hiding and pumping about 3-4 valks will allow you to scout, and control his population, usually giving you time to play droppers and catch up. Then expand to an island and push his main. It's one of those builds you use in 5 games series vs. people, not every game, to switch up gameplay. Scourge don't work well vs. valks btw, the splash owns them unless they are on their own, and hiding them until you get a decent number is key. You usually can't go valks prior to expo, unless you own their cliff then expand.

[blupp74]

The reason people don't use valkyries vs. carriers is because starcraft can only generate so many sprites on the screen at a time, and since the carrers will be launching all their interceptors, a lot of the times the valks won't fire.

And the valk build TvZ is very good once you have your first expo up and want to do some population control. A lot of zergs expo out of control and just contain you midgame (Lurk contain, or muta harass, into double expo) and overrun you. Hiding and pumping about 3-4 valks will allow you to scout, and control his population, usually giving you time to play droppers and catch up. Then expand to an island and push his main. It's one of those builds you use in 5 games series vs. people, not every game, to switch up gameplay. Scourge don't work well vs. valks btw, the splash owns them unless they are on their own, and hiding them until you get a decent number is key. You usually can't go valks prior to expo, unless you own their cliff then expand.

I have never ever encountered problems with the max sprite thing unless on money maps. And I don't play those anymore.

Valks works wonders on Z, known that for a long time. The question was vs Carriers.
Hiding them is a nice angle though, but that goes for just about anything you want to keep a secret, not specifically valks.

And I'm usually on my 2nd expansion when reaching valk-stage.
Or would be, if I was using them. Which I'm not. Though considering doing it. Hence the thread.

[WickedImposter]

I LOVE hunting ovies with mass valks. THey...splash so lovely.

you got that right. its even better when they dont have ovie speed.

what i really hate when playing z is that when i go muta ling against terran, he wraith rushes before spire is ready. that gets really annoying. i remember i played 1 game PvZ, i sair rushed. sairs and valks are the number 1 ovie hunter units, and they annoy the sh!t out of most ppl

[Siege_Commander]

Dont remindme... first time tryin out z and you have to do that. Didnt no any Bos. "12 hatch 11 pool" now what the hell do i do?

[WickedImposter]

oh ya lol :D no supply for you. oh noes 3 hatch pumping ovies. no hydras. hmm what i do. what about sair dt.

of course, the sair is the valkryies close inter-species cousin. hey, whats more cost effective? valks or sairs. im talking about tech, resource, speed, ability, etc.

[Siege_Commander]

It dpends me thinks. Cause yo should have both avaiable. To upmore than past 1/1, you need starport and scifac. And unless you absolutley dont need AA, you should have sairs. They are availible right when the stargates come out of Aiur.

[WickedImposter]

ya. i think that sairs are more cost effective, but a lot less effective AA wise. up to 3/3 ups, the valk has i think 2 base armor, the sair 1. which means that the valk has a 3*8 damage bonus. however, they are both most ineffective against capital ships.

[SHOOBANG]

protoss rules u all dt's and archons with sum goons = gg for u

[blupp74]

protoss rules u all dt's and archons with sum goons = gg for u

So by your statement you're saying that all games where anyone wins over a P player are just illusions?

DT's are nifty, but when detection is around they're just like babies with samurai swords - they can kill you if you're not careful, but if you give them a nudge they fall apart.

Archons are fun too, but it's not like both Z and T have counter-units. A few tanks and Archons are gone. EMP, and they never even existed.
For Z, I think the Ultralisk is a good match (even though the Archon will win...but the Ultra won't be alone anyway, so...)

"sum goon" I have no idea what you're talking about. The sum of many goons? Recall by arbiter?
Yeah, the arbiter is nifty too, but in no way makes P invincible. Just another unit with abilities to counter by both T and Z.

There.
How do you like them apples?

[B.A.Baracus]

Archons are fun too, but it's not like both Z and T have counter-units. A few tanks and Archons are gone. EMP, and they never even existed.
For Z, I think the Ultralisk is a good match (even though the Archon will win...but the Ultra won't be alone anyway, so...)


Z counters archons with hydra:)
Who's your idiot friend up there?

[blupp74]

Z counters archons with hydra:)
Who's your idiot friend up there?

I meant to come as close as possible 1 on 1. Even though 1 archon will kill one tank. Guess the BC is a better choice.

And I don't have idiot friends. I hate idiots. Didn't you know?
See my sig. See. Right there. See?

[Siege_Commander]

He meant "some" goons.

[WickedImposter]

lol blupp again emphasizes his hate for idiots. hey why was he banned? anyways getting back to topic so anyone have a responce on which is better, sair or valk? heres the stats

1v1: valk will win

cost: sair has a slight 25/25 advantage

speed: sair has way faster rate of attack

Damage: valk is more effective against groups of units, as every armor effects the sairs already small attack even more ineffective.

[Siege_Commander]

Havent you seen his mass spam?

[WickedImposter]

well... ya. but still. oh wait, nvm. ANYWASY DOES ANYONE HAVE THE ANSWER?

[U-238]

They're both supposed to be even. However when it comes down to it the valk has a slight edge over the sair.

[GroG]

In tactical form, the sair is superior to the valk as it lends itself to more strategies (sair->DT, sair/reaver). Zerg must get either hydra, muta, scourge, or spores to stop sair, in which case DT/zealots become more effective. But if you go valks TvZ, you're units don't gain any significant advantage in cloak harass and delaying an expo or anything of the sort. This is quite obvious and looking at Season X and Season IX PGTour reps the sair is far more common than valks vs. Z.

TvT you get valk to counter wraith (if you are behind production), and you could potentially get them to counter sairs TvP, but you generally wouldn't.

Sairs beat out wraith, beat out overlords, muta(generally speaking), scourge (generally speaking), and do it while complementing other units. Great!

No contest.

[TheBlackAbyss]

I have to agree, sairs win. I often find so many uses for Disruption web in conbination with Recalls or Reaver drops, it's not even funny. Even base defence, especially by seige tanks.

[Siege_Commander]

The valks can be used for ovy harrass.:)

[splatt0r]

I'm T 80% of the times I play and I use valks like in 2,5% of the games. I don't know why, maybe their french pronounce is annoying :P nah, they can be good really, but I preffer corsairs.

[own3d0406]

I think valks are too high up in the tech tree and too expensive, I only use valks when I go overlord hunting, I think youd be much better off with goliaths when your countering air attacks.

[Spartan-II]

The Valk accent is German.. they say 'Achtung' which is 'Attention'.

I use Valks if my opponent goes mass air, and even then only as a supplement to my other forces.

[own3d0406]

Whats with the accents? dosnet the BC have a german accent?

[Spartan-II]

No, they have a Russian accent. Get your accents right, people. :P

[GroG]

I'll just create my own strategy now: Quick 2 fact push into valk/tank TvZ. I'll develop it more, hopefully.

Other than this guys bad macro, the summary:

9 oclock T spawn v. 6oclock Z spawn, I 4 marine/1vult/1tank push his sunken expo, he fends it off with quick muta and harasses me a bit while I expand to my natural. He then double expands to 3oclock main and nat, and I macro out ~6 tanks and 3 valks, and after a failed harass on my natural where I snag his mutes, I push out into his 3oclock expos. He then stops this with hydra/ling, and proceeds to switch tech into guardian/dev

I fail at vulture harassing his 3oclock nat and attempt to mine the center so I can expand safely at 12. I expand to 12 oclock main, and drop ~5 rax. I lose my mineral only and natural to guard/devo push, but manage to stop him from pushing my main with gol/wraith. By this time his guard push really hits my econ, and he outmacroes me even though he has a SHIT TON of minerals.

Better luck next time, valk/tank. Yes, next time. Watch it for the originality, and critique please.

[Siege_Commander]

Valks arent high in tech tree. If you are regular person and wanna up more than 1/1 you need armory+starport+scifac. so you would already have acceess to valk. And the accents are cool:cool:

[own3d0406]

Hmm, well most my games dont go beyond science facility because ill either get cheesed or Ill just totally own my opponents, anyway, I would still go goliaths over valks most of the time, unless my opponents went mass carriers or BCs or gaurdians, valks have a slow rate of fire, which is why they need to be in numbers or accomponied by other units, and they cost more than twice as much as goliaths.

[Siege_Commander]

True, true. But you DONT go mass valks v bcs, cuz the tough armor negates the multi hit of valk. You go gols, which are also cool:P

[own3d0406]

True, true. But you DONT go mass valks v bcs, cuz the tough armor negates the multi hit of valk. You go gols, which are also cool:P
I should think about what I say before I make an ambiguous post.:(

[WickedImposter]

lol. didnt i post b4? do not go valks against capital ships. ya gols work surprisigly well against capitals. especially with charon boosters. once, while playing TMM, the enemies went carriers. mass ghosts owned interceptors lol.

[Siege_Commander]

Not always. the fricken ai makes gols stupid. If they were spread out, then yes, they are effective, but if not, then cap ships can ff>.<

[WickedImposter]

ya. but gols will outrange bcs, and carrier you can just sit back and let the gols destroy 25 minerals after 25 minerals of interceptorsl ol

[blupp74]

ya. but gols will outrange bcs, and carrier you can just sit back and let the gols destroy 25 minerals after 25 minerals of interceptorsl ol

it's not like the gols won't get hit too. and with a lot of carriers they will win, especially if they FF. And for each gol down there's one gol less making damage. And 4 interceptors = 1 gol (plus gas).
And carriers are still more mobile than goliaths.

For carrier-counter i still prefer wraiths. They're just as mobile (if not more...I think they're faster by quite a bit), and can cloak too (though cloak is negated by nearby observer in 90% of the cases...).

[own3d0406]

it's not like the gols won't get hit too. and with a lot of carriers they will win, especially if they FF. And for each gol down there's one gol less making damage. And 4 interceptors = 1 gol (plus gas).
And carriers are still more mobile than goliaths.

For carrier-counter i still prefer wraiths. They're just as mobile (if not more...I think they're faster by quite a bit), and can cloak too (though cloak is negated by nearby observer in 90% of the cases...).
You dont need to be mobile to fight carriers unless youre playing on an island map, carriers are slow.

[WickedImposter]

ya. but blupp, wraiths, when detected, are just like paper airplanes. useless agaisnst carriers when ob there. but if you bumrush the ob, you stand a chance lol.

[blupp74]

ya. but blupp, wraiths, when detected, are just like paper airplanes. useless agaisnst carriers when ob there. but if you bumrush the ob, you stand a chance lol.

I've had better luck vs carriers with wraiths than gols so far. WHen they come to my base (ok, i'm pretty much already dead at this point, but still) they're out of range, and there's the whole high ground thing that make my gols not reach them.

[GroG]

You need to use your comsat to scan the ridge, or float a building. Also, upgrades are more important for gols than other units, as +attack gives them a huge boost in damage to carrier, and you really need that damage as they do a ton of damage quick but die easy as well.

Just remember, wraiths require extra buildings that cost more gas, more gas themselves, but are more mobile. Usually, you use wraiths as a latch ditch effort to stop carriers who might potentially not have obs, although scan+obs raid can work, but is hard.

Generally speaking, if you push your opponent hard with vult/tank and play well, and continue to push and harass them all game, it's harder for your opponent to "hide" his carriers long; in fact, if he's teching to carriers in the first place, and you are pressuring him hard, he will need to bring those first few carriers to stop your push before he can harass you. If you watch replays of old Grr... games and other TvP matches where the Toss makes cars, you'll see they usually have to sacrifice an expo or two while hiding carriers to get 3-4 of them, enough to harass terran expos.

The key is not committing fully into goliath. You want to save your reserve push (don't foolishly lose units to cars), make enough goliaths to fend off the cars, and you want to continue to push and pressure toss with vult/tank, making him either defend more with cars instead of pressuring you (and then you get to expo more), or potentially losing more bases. Plus, as much as you might think they don't, goliaths suck vs. Toss ground, and if toss starts expoing more and making more gateway units, then you need to be ready to start producing vult/tank again.

Multitasking is pretty much key at this point. That and reading his pressure properly.

If there is a point where the Toss made cars or arbiter and you didn't expect it, you were just plain outplayed. You didn't harass, you didn't scout, and you didn't pressure. Fix it.

[blupp74]

You need to use your comsat to scan the ridge, or float a building. Also, upgrades are more important for gols than other units, as +attack gives them a huge boost in damage to carrier, and you really need that damage as they do a ton of damage quick but die easy as well.

Just remember, wraiths require extra buildings that cost more gas, more gas themselves, but are more mobile. Usually, you use wraiths as a latch ditch effort to stop carriers who might potentially not have obs, although scan+obs raid can work, but is hard.

Generally speaking, if you push your opponent hard with vult/tank and play well, and continue to push and harass them all game, it's harder for your opponent to "hide" his carriers long; in fact, if he's teching to carriers in the first place, and you are pressuring him hard, he will need to bring those first few carriers to stop your push before he can harass you. If you watch replays of old Grr... games and other TvP matches where the Toss makes cars, you'll see they usually have to sacrifice an expo or two while hiding carriers to get 3-4 of them, enough to harass terran expos.

The key is not committing fully into goliath. You want to save your reserve push (don't foolishly lose units to cars), make enough goliaths to fend off the cars, and you want to continue to push and pressure toss with vult/tank, making him either defend more with cars instead of pressuring you (and then you get to expo more), or potentially losing more bases. Plus, as much as you might think they don't, goliaths suck vs. Toss ground, and if toss starts expoing more and making more gateway units, then you need to be ready to start producing vult/tank again.

Multitasking is pretty much key at this point. That and reading his pressure properly.

If there is a point where the Toss made cars or arbiter and you didn't expect it, you were just plain outplayed. You didn't harass, you didn't scout, and you didn't pressure. Fix it.

GroG, u iz da bomb. I like your posts. Precise, to the point, and full of information and well explained arguments.

Whether or not I manage to fix it we'll see. But I do know I have serious pressure-problems. I know I'll get there though. I was a turtler just a few weeks ago, but now slowly learning to get out there and kill some Protoss
(haven't had this problem with Zerg for some reason...).
But at the moment it seems my opponents not only handle my pressure, but manage to sneakily build carriers somewhere I can't see. And when I do see (and what I see is usually 2-4 stargates blinking, with the...carrier...building...next to them) it I usually freak out and try to go for gols or wraiths. Basically I panic and lose focus on the push, thinking my #1 priority should be to take those stargates out.

[WickedImposter]

lol. i agre with blupp on the GroG comment. anyways, the same thing has happened to me blupp. i get good pressure, but they always build up a force of carriers hidden somewhere. cant seem to nail that.

[blupp74]

lol. i agre with blupp on the GroG comment. anyways, the same thing has happened to me blupp. i get good pressure, but they always build up a force of carriers hidden somewhere. cant seem to nail that.

...which really means that what you get is what you THINK is good pressure.
But yeah, I know exactly what you mean (which isn't so strange, since you're the one agreeing with me...).

I've got the push sort of nailed, now I just need to learn to do it faster and harder, and more efficient.

I played a game with Jays the other night, which I lost. Only to find out that if I'd put a little more pressure on my puch in the beginning, I would have won that game. Against Jays! Gaaah!
(I had like 2 tanks, 3 vults, 2 SCV's and maybe a marine or two...he killed them all off, but I already hade a few tanks and vults going there...and at that time he only had like 3 dragoons left, and only 1 gate to pump from).

[GroG]

Once you get vult speed/mines and you aren't at a point where you absolutely NEED all your units, run a few vults around and lay mines at the expos. That's how you slow toss expos (he needs obs there to kill it), or know when he's expanding. And if you know he's expanding, kill it. Either have a few tanks and vults break off from your push and destroy it, or be running around with a 2 dropships (1 full of vults, the other full of tanks) and expo hunt. Siege the tanks, and have vults lay mines then focus fire the nexus with vults + tanks (you'll be surprised how fast 2 sieged tanks and 4 vults destroy a nexus). You want to do this as fast as you can then fly away, as he'll be coming with toss infantry to clean up your drop and try to save his expo.

Also, remember as you are pushing, and you are cutting expos off with your push, expo there yourself (especially if there is gas), build a few turrets and park a tank there if you need to, and don't forget to maynard. Every expo you get, you can make about 3-4 more factories for (or more if it's primarily vulture production). Another thing to remind you about, is that when you cut-off expos, make sure to scout them, and destroy any enemy expansions you find ASAP. Your job as terran is not to outresource them, but to hinder them while slowly gaining the advantage. Messing up their econ, probe raids, tank drops, expo hunting, cliff sieging, and others are all ways of doing this.

Finally, you talk about how many vultures to get, this number changes. There are 2 variables that determine how many vultures you are producing:
1)The map. On maps with no gas natural, like nostalgia and such, you are going to be making a ton more vulture than tank, period. As this is the case, you will be needing to get good with vulture micro, mining, fleeing, and raiding. Macro/micro is harder to do with more vulture, but can be pulled off with more practice.
2)His production. More goons, produce more tanks. More zealots? Produce more vulture. There's obvious times when you don't absolutely have to follow this rule (read - winning the game, pushing well), but more the most part you do want to. As a terran metaling, sometimes your units won't even die - his units will die to tank fire and mines before they even hit your push. In this scenario, you need to relay mines, and go find something to harass with vults.

[blupp74]

Once you get vult speed/mines and you aren't at a point where you absolutely NEED all your units, run a few vults around and lay mines at the expos. That's how you slow toss expos (he needs obs there to kill it), or know when he's expanding. And if you know he's expanding, kill it. Either have a few tanks and vults break off from your push and destroy it, or be running around with a 2 dropships (1 full of vults, the other full of tanks) and expo hunt. Siege the tanks, and have vults lay mines then focus fire the nexus with vults + tanks (you'll be surprised how fast 2 sieged tanks and 4 vults destroy a nexus). You want to do this as fast as you can then fly away, as he'll be coming with toss infantry to clean up your drop and try to save his expo.

Also, remember as you are pushing, and you are cutting expos off with your push, expo there yourself (especially if there is gas), build a few turrets and park a tank there if you need to, and don't forget to maynard. Every expo you get, you can make about 3-4 more factories for (or more if it's primarily vulture production). Another thing to remind you about, is that when you cut-off expos, make sure to scout them, and destroy any enemy expansions you find ASAP. Your job as terran is not to outresource them, but to hinder them while slowly gaining the advantage. Messing up their econ, probe raids, tank drops, expo hunting, cliff sieging, and others are all ways of doing this.

Finally, you talk about how many vultures to get, this number changes. There are 2 variables that determine how many vultures you are producing:
1)The map. On maps with no gas natural, like nostalgia and such, you are going to be making a ton more vulture than tank, period. As this is the case, you will be needing to get good with vulture micro, mining, fleeing, and raiding. Macro/micro is harder to do with more vulture, but can be pulled off with more practice.
2)His production. More goons, produce more tanks. More zealots? Produce more vulture. There's obvious times when you don't absolutely have to follow this rule (read - winning the game, pushing well), but more the most part you do want to. As a terran metaling, sometimes your units won't even die - his units will die to tank fire and mines before they even hit your push. In this scenario, you need to relay mines, and go find something to harass with vults.

Obviously more vultures if gas is short. He'll have more zealots then too, for the same reason, so it's a good match (for T, anyway. I think mass vults kill mass zeals rather easily, especially with any amount of micro).

But by the time you know if he has more zeals than goons, you're already facing him. And if you, at that point, use that information to make more vultures than before, what's to say he doesn't switch and make more goons?
Feels T is always a step behind here.
...of course, P needs more goons if T has more vults, so I guess that door swings both ways.
But until T knows how P's goon/zeal ratio is, I still say about 3-4:1 vult/tank ratio.

So with 2 fac, make 1 vult 1 tank. 3 fac = 1 tank 2 vult. 4 fac = 1 tank 3 vult, 5 fac = 2 tank 3 vult etc, etc

[WickedImposter]

I played a game with Jays the other night, which I lost. Only to find out that if I'd put a little more pressure on my puch in the beginning, I would have won that game. Against Jays! Gaaah!
(I had like 2 tanks, 3 vults, 2 SCV's and maybe a marine or two...he killed them all off, but I already hade a few tanks and vults going there...and at that time he only had like 3 dragoons left, and only 1 gate to pump from).

i saw the rep. you sohuld have scouted early, and you might have won if you had gundammed or something.

[blupp74]

i saw the rep. you sohuld have scouted early, and you might have won if you had gundammed or something.

Well, it's all MG's fault. He crushed me completely. And he scouted late.
And during that game (or maybe we watched the rep, I don't remember) he tells me "sometimes it's better to scout late". Because I had scouted early and...well...I don't remember why. But it stuck. So sometimes I scout a bit late. And I'm really bad at keeping the scouting up. After the 1st scout (SCV) dies, I don't really scout much until I get comsat. Not his main, anyway. I mean, what's the point? He'll have units on the ramp, so I can't get in.

Of course, in the case of Jays, I would have seen the lightly defended expo...

And I ALWAYS forget to bring SCV's. I bring 1, maybe 2, to build turrets. I never really remember to make them more active during the attack (blocking/causing damage/repairing).

...and what's exactly the definition of gundam? I had 2 rines, a couple of vults, and 2 tanks, with SCV's building turrets outside his base...isn't that the exact definition of Gundam?

[MidnightGladius]

You scouted early and didn't see a thing before my rine killed your SCV. I scouted a bit later, got behind your rine, and saw your 2fac tech, allowing me to soundly wraith harass you :/

[blupp74]

You scouted early and didn't see a thing before my rine killed your SCV. I scouted a bit later, got behind your rine, and saw your 2fac tech, allowing me to soundly wraith harass you :/

Difference being that you got pass my marine. So if wasn't really a question of timing of scouting, but bad marine-placement :P

But your statement "sometimes it's better to scout later" has been shot down by EVERYONE! So it does not apply well as a general rule. So there!

[GroG]

On the what they are producing topic: either hotkey your scanner(s) and use it not only to scout expansions, but where they are rallying troops, at intervals; or suicide an scv every so often to see what they are making. Simple.

I believe gundam is like 5scv, 4marines, and 1tank. Research siege, then as gas/cash allows, build 2nd and 3rd tank and rally to his ramp. Rush his ramp or expo, and proceed to build a bunker and siege him. Get vult speed/mines immediately as gas allows (stop tank production at 3), and break him if you can. Start vult production and later engineering bay, but watch out for reaver or DT. Turrets come much later.

Basically, you gundam vs. 1 gate toss and it's relatively close positions, hoping to punish the toss for teching. A variation of this is called the joyo push (Joyo being the chinese player). It's 5 marines, 3 scvs, and 3 tanks, THEN siege. This one is very much harder to stop, and leaves you with a better econ.

Of course, you can always alter the numbers of units here to better fit your postition and playstyle.

Then you get people who 'fake' joyo/gundams, so basically do the build order like you are gundaming, but don't push and proceed to engineering bay and CC. This forces toss to 2 gate prior to robo or immediately after (sometimes leaving with really late goon range research), or racing to reaver then later obs. If you play it safe, you'll have siege in time definitely, or if you see templar tech as opposed to robo, you'll have mines and a couple of vultures. Vulture up your ramp, and put some on the edges of your minerals (placement here is key), and potentially a few around your factories. Then play it by ear. Getting bay/CC, and siege are your next steps.

So basically, choose: aggressive, or safe. Do you micro better and like to play offensively, or macro better and play it safe?

And the matter of scouting earlier or later is a game of macro vs. econ. Giving up that scv to scout at 4 supply better be a damn good reason (your playing someone good on bloodbath and they are random), whereas scouting really late you better have played that player a lot (you know their builds, so probably know if they are going to pressure you or not).

Generally speaking, just use the SCV who builds your first depot to scout. Use that as a routine.

[WickedImposter]

hmm ya joyo and gundam seem to work very well especially if they go 1 gate goon or something. i need to try that sometime

[Siege_Commander]

Isnt there also 3minevult in gundam?

[WickedImposter]

maybe. maybe not. but i think that both gundam and joyo require mines.

[blupp74]

I'll just create my own strategy now: Quick 2 fact push into valk/tank TvZ. I'll develop it more, hopefully.

Other than this guys bad macro, the summary:

9 oclock T spawn v. 6oclock Z spawn, I 4 marine/1vult/1tank push his sunken expo, he fends it off with quick muta and harasses me a bit while I expand to my natural. He then double expands to 3oclock main and nat, and I macro out ~6 tanks and 3 valks, and after a failed harass on my natural where I snag his mutes, I push out into his 3oclock expos. He then stops this with hydra/ling, and proceeds to switch tech into guardian/dev

I fail at vulture harassing his 3oclock nat and attempt to mine the center so I can expand safely at 12. I expand to 12 oclock main, and drop ~5 rax. I lose my mineral only and natural to guard/devo push, but manage to stop him from pushing my main with gol/wraith. By this time his guard push really hits my econ, and he outmacroes me even though he has a SHIT TON of minerals.

Better luck next time, valk/tank. Yes, next time. Watch it for the originality, and critique please.

Well, first of all, the macro was a bit sloppy. You had 2 tanks queued, and still 200+ minerals (and plenty a gas). You could have built another fac or starport.
Your first attack went pretty decent, but you should have expected sunks on the cliff...and microed tank #2 away from it. Instead it died without firing a single shot.
And even though you were planning metal with valks and tanks, you still should have pumped marines meanwhile. You had the resources.

Oh, and the first thing I noticed was when you had 1 fac up, another one on the way, 5 marines sitting next to your cc...he sends a single zergling in there, and sees it all. Why didn't you place the marines on the ramp?
He wouldn't have gotten in, and the base would be a lot easier to defend from there (until he got air).

...and tanks only really don't do so well against lings and hydras...the whole explosive damage/small units thing...and it REALLY doesn't work against mutas (you knew he had the tech...who no air? Didn't see all that many valks at all).

Basically you played like a TvP...which in itself was pretty cool :)


Can't say anything against the originality though. Definetly not something you see in a lot of TvZ games.

[GroG]

It was the principle of doing a retarded strat in a pubby and attempting to win with it.

As for the micro/macro mistakes, I have no excuses for you. Sorry, I'm not perfect.

If you want I'll TvZ you with Valk/Tank.

[blupp74]

It was the principle of doing a retarded strat in a pubby and attempting to win with it.

As for the micro/macro mistakes, I have no excuses for you. Sorry, I'm not perfect.

If you want I'll TvZ you with Valk/Tank.

I swear, if you want to TvZ ME all you need is SCV's, cause my Z is so horrible a 45 year old man in Melbourne just died by my mentioning it.

[B.A.Baracus]

I swear, if you want to TvZ ME all you need is SCV's, cause my Z is so horrible a 45 year old man in Melbourne just died by my mentioning it.

Ha, my t is the same way. I tvp'ed chron and he had time to tech d web. We should tvz, you z me t.

[blupp74]

Ha, my t is the same way. I tvp'ed chron and he had time to tech d web. We should tvz, you z me t.

No Babs, we should not.
If I'm Z, my opponent could just as well be a blind, retarded 4 year old with no arms - I'd still lose.

[WickedImposter]

lol blupp. your probably not that bad. we really sohuld have a tourney like that, with 2 ppl playing each other races.

@blupp: i think that tanks to well against hydra ling, if they are set up. if they arnt set up, then they might still have a chance with vulture support, vults killing lings and tanks sieging/

[own3d0406]

No Babs, we should not.
If I'm Z, my opponent could just as well be a blind, retarded 4 year old with no arms - I'd still lose.

What? WickedImposter wouldn't be able to beat you;)

J/K

[ShadeZ]

lol blupp. your probably not that bad. we really sohuld have a tourney like that, with 2 ppl playing each other races.

noo.. I hate tvz

It is evil and if I have to play it I will explode *splodes*

[blupp74]

What? WickedImposter wouldn't be able to beat you;)

J/K

If I play as Z ANYONE can beat me.
Including my dad, who's hardly heard of that new thing called "computer".

[WickedImposter]

lol. blupp. your zerg cant be all that terrible. as for owned, i will haveto get you one day Q(o_oQ)

[own3d0406]

If I play as Z ANYONE can beat me.
Including my dad, who's hardly heard of that new thing called "computer".

Really? I'd like to play you sometime then, your zerg cant be as worse as mine.

[blupp74]

Really? I'd like to play you sometime then, your zerg cant be as worse as mine.

Hehe...as *worse* as yours? How about your grammar? :P

Anyways...eh...guess we could try that. But of my off-races, I'm much more comfortable with Protoss.

[Scourge_Splitter]

valkyrie are damn inhandly (as long as there aren't too many units on the map causing their rockets to fail)
but next to the corsair, the valkyrie is a great unit killing carrier fast enough, as long as you have enough of them.

well, shoot it down but it's my experience with them

[WickedImposter]

Hehe...as *worse* as yours? How about your grammar? :P

Anyways...eh...guess we could try that. But of my off-races, I'm much more comfortable with Protoss.

lol blupp. i have great synergy with all 3, just not pro yet. as for that, we might have to take you up on that and someone should paly you with you as p.

we should also have a thing where you keep on going z and then everyone plays you, and see how many ppl lose :P

[own3d0406]

Hehe...as *worse* as yours? How about your grammar? :P

Anyways...eh...guess we could try that. But of my off-races, I'm much more comfortable with Protoss.
Me bad at grammar? thats unpossibel!

Oh yeah, Ive noticed that 3/4 of WickedImposters posts contain "lol" anyone else see this?

[blupp74]

Me bad at grammar? thats unpossibel!

Oh yeah, Ive noticed that 3/4 of WickedImposters posts contain "lol" anyone else see this?

He's a happy guy, what can I say?
Don't try to take that away from him.
After all, who's better off - the happy fool, or the miserable smart guy?

(Wicked, you might think I just called you a fool, but infact I did not. So there).

[own3d0406]

He's a happy guy, what can I say?
Don't try to take that away from him.
After all, who's better off - the happy fool, or the miserable smart guy?

(Wicked, you might think I just called you a fool, but infact I did not. So there).

Hmm, maybe I'll try being "happy"!

:D :D :D I LOVE EVERYONE AT SC.ORG!!!!

ok, happy time over.:mad:

[WickedImposter]

valkyrie are damn inhandly

wow. this is so wrong its not even funny. i tihnk i did a 2v2 with blupp a while back, i went metal with valks. the zerg went mutas i pwned them in about half a second. BTW, thanks for backing me up blupp. and owned, im just a happy guy ^^ and im not a fool











damn the rep is too big. i need to get a host site fast.