Ahh the cliffs are attacking!

[neobowman]

In a map with cliffs right by my base my enemy always puts some long ranged unit right on top of the cliff :( . I usually bring in cloaked wraiths :) (i'm a t player) but as soon as i kill them i have more enemys on another cliff :( . Each time they bring stronger units :cry:.

[MatGeo]

Well....i will asume that the long range units are tanks....soooo...why don't you mine the hills so that when he unloads the tanks...BOOOM...some tanks are killed and u also become aware of their presence...or you could place goliaths on the hills... to prevent dropships from coming....

[IrishDutchman]

what mat said. I would think a counter would indeed be fairly simple. Turrets or goliaths on the cliff, mines on the cliff, etc. Bunkers would also work

[MidnightGladius]

Yep, NastyApe and MatGeo got it right.

I'd just like to add that if you scout transport tech in TvT or PvT, get it yourself. It should be fairly obvious, but you'd be surprised how many people don't seem to care...

[MatGeo]

what mat said. I would think a counter would indeed be fairly simple. Turrets or goliaths on the cliff, mines on the cliff, etc. Bunkers would also work

It depends...bunkers on cliffs is good but it depends how wide the cliff actually is... tanks and turrets require less space than bunks so it depends...

Bdw what map are you exactly talking about??

[neobowman]

It depends...bunkers on cliffs is good but it depends how wide the cliff actually is... tanks and turrets require less space than bunks so it depends...

Bdw what map are you exactly talking about??
you ouldn't kno about it. unfortunatly my opponent alays scans before he drops.(damm my double u button ain't orking properly) and ouln't you kno. he brings his dropship in herever i don't put my turrets at.

[MidnightGladius]

Are you scouting his build order? And what map is this?

[Psyren]

If it's on Temple, and he's sieging on the cliff above your nat, you should siege tanks in your nat, then float an engineering bay or barracks above your cliff.

[neobowman]

you ouldn't kno the map i'm talking about. and unfortunatly i am not very good at scouting. i use a fe comsat scans here and there but they don't tell me much. (damm my double u still ain't orkin)

[raylu]

Scan their base, look at the buildings, and guess what he's going for from there.

[MidnightGladius]

Why don't you post the name of the map, and/or a screenshot, instead of blindly assuming that I don't know what you're talking about? That isn't really useful in the long run =/

Oh, and just use vv instead of w.

[Siege_Commander]

I think he has no idea of tech, BOs and scouting.

[splatt0r]

If he has his cliff full of tanks and you detect mines on the entrance aswell, try to drop vults near their tanks, so that the tanks automaticly attack your units causing damage to the surrounding tanks and rines/vults with the splash effect. These drops can also be good to activate your opponent's mines, using them against their own troops. Remember to drop only 1 unit at a time, and your units will die, so this is a suicide mission. Works better with zeals btw.

[MatGeo]

If he has his cliff full of tanks and you detect mines on the entrance aswell, try to drop vults near their tanks, so that the tanks automaticly attack your units causing damage to the surrounding tanks and rines/vults with the splash effect. These drops can also be good to activate your opponent's mines, using them against their own troops. Remember to drop only 1 unit at a time, and your units will die, so this is a suicide mission. Works better with zeals btw.

<.<

>.>

U didn't undertsand the problem...his enemy doesn't have tanks and mines on cliffs his enemy is attacking him by dropping tanks on his cliffs... the idea was of placing mines on u'r own cliffs so the enemy's tanks will get pwned when they are unloaded...

[neobowman]

seriously i know you won't know my map and i can't get screenshots because i'm currently half a world away from my own pc(by the way my w is orking again)but i guess the rest of the info would help me. i'll give it a try once i get back to canada

[DarkMirror]

DOSENT MATTER TELL US THE MAP YOU ....
Argg! we might know the map...
And how do you take screen shots?

[Alexisonfire]

play luna

[MatGeo]

DOSENT MATTER TELL US THE MAP YOU ....
Argg! we might know the map...
And how do you take screen shots?

Does the PrintScreen button ring any bells?

[Siege_Commander]

Luna is so anti terran. so is azealea. but unless its a map you made, then we prolly will know it.

[MidnightGladius]

Luna is so anti terran. so is azealea. but unless its a map you made, then we prolly will know it.

lol, that's why I love playing on it. :)

Oh, and Aza isn't really anti-T as much as it is pro-Z. Expanding on that map is CRAZY.

[Siege_Commander]

Well yeah. the nats are fricken right next to each other. Well, once my tvz sharpens, ill start playing there on azealea.

Edit: good thing and bad thing about aza, its open, well the mains are. and that means 8+facts/rax ^.^

[MidnightGladius]

The cool thing with Aza is that 1 rax can block the main choke. That makes TvP so much easier -_-

[WickedImposter]

lol if they cliff drop they prolly terran. toss only drops to temp (i think) and zerg has like no cliff drop stuff. so if your against terran, like all others said, tanks on bottom and floaty building on top

[Siege_Commander]

Didnt you already say the exact same thing?

[ShadeZ]

Zerg can cliff drop lurkers...

[Siege_Commander]

lol. if bildings/min line are right next to cliff that can happen.

[Ahzz]

Luna is so anti terran. so is azealea.
you fricking have not good enough skill to say something like that. You seriously think luna is antiterran? Just why? Because they can't build buildings to the middle? Pah. It's just about the most balanced map ever made, and that's the reason so many play it. And I just don't get it why azalea would be antiterran map. Antiprotoss maybe, if we're talking about pvz or something, but not really anti terran...

Please don't say something like that when you really don't have further knowledge or experience of it. :P

[Siege_Commander]

Ok, terran cant wall in, no turrets for tank push, aza, no cliffs, v zerg expos right next to each other, well what ever. ill just take your advice :P

[blupp74]

Luna is so anti terran. so is azealea. but unless its a map you made, then we prolly will know it.

Ok, terran cant wall in, no turrets for tank push, aza, no cliffs, v zerg expos right next to each other, well what ever. ill just take your advice :P

T doesn't HAVE to wall in. It can sort of still be done though (not as successful). And T doesn't HAVE to tank push with turrets. You have vessels, and mines, and comsat. (And you don't absolutely have to tank push at all. There are other tactics too).

And yes, expansion is easy for Z on Azealea, as they're close to eachother, but they're equally close to P and T. Close=easier to defend while keeping main safe. As dar as I'm concerned, T has a major advantage when it comes to expanding, as they don't have to build their CC in place. They can move it there when it's done. Z has the advantage of quickly building sunkens when hatch is done. P can start off with pylons and cannons, before even starting nexus. All races have their pro's and con's.

Cliffs are missing, yes, but that's just ONE tactic that can't be used. By ANY race. (Though T has the most benefits from that tactic, I guess).

[Siege_Commander]

Dude, if i had any spare gas for vessels, i would ditch ebay. but 225 is the gas for to tanks, and all mains or expos have a minreal count that more than twice out numbers gas>.< So i wouldnt have the spare gas. Well yeah, i now retract my statement about aza, ive seen what you could do ^-^

[blupp74]

Dude, if i had any spare gas for vessels, i would ditch ebay. but 225 is the gas for to tanks, and all mains or expos have a minreal count that more than twice out numbers gas>.< So i wouldnt have the spare gas. Well yeah, i now retract my statement about aza, ive seen what you could do ^-^

I don't really understand that.
In a game where you're pumping out perhaps over 100 tanks (depending on game length), would it kill you to trade 5 of them for 2 vessels?
Sure, if your vessels get killed all the time you might not find it worth it to keep replacing them, but if they stay alive it could save you a lot of turret minerals, which you could use for more vultures.
But I guess in the end it's a matter of preference...

[Ahzz]

thing is, you don't really need vessels, except very much later on, when you got 2-2 upgrades or better or so

[raylu]

On another note...Protoss can cannon your cliffs :D.

[blupp74]

thing is, you don't really need vessels, except very much later on, when you got 2-2 upgrades or better or so

How do you not need vessels until later game?
Sure, if you have comsat and build turrets along the way, you don't need them. But on the other hand, if you have vessels you don't need comsat or turrets.
Comsat is of course the best detection, since they can't kill off your scan(without killing the comsat).

[WickedImposter]

if your talking about a push, then you still need turrets. not just for detection, but also for AA cababilities.

[raylu]

Goliaths can do that later.

On another note, why don't we use Marines?

[neobowman]

i always use marines. mass enough of them and you won't even need medics or stimpacks

[Ahzz]

How do you not need vessels until later game?
Sure, if you have comsat and build turrets along the way, you don't need them. But on the other hand, if you have vessels you don't need comsat or turrets.
Comsat is of course the best detection, since they can't kill off your scan(without killing the comsat).
since it will take alot of gas to make them useful. Comsats are actually more useful than vessels if they haven't got emp, which takes another 200 gas, and it takes time to build up 100 energy. Even after that 1 emp rarely does'nt do anything that would really matter. Not anything that 4+ tanks wouldn't be better at. Later on you got alot more gas most likely, and that's why they'd be better. And No, this doesn't mean "you can't go fast vessel or you're stupid" or anything...

But like one teacher once said: "You asked the question wrong, it is why WOULD you do it?"

[IrishDutchman]

On another note, why don't we use Marines?

In a TvT game? Well, tanks and vultures horribly, grotesquely rape marines. A vulture only takes two shots, a tank takes one shot and kills about 4. Mines kill about 6 if they're lucky.

[blupp74]

since it will take alot of gas to make them useful. Comsats are actually more useful than vessels if they haven't got emp, which takes another 200 gas, and it takes time to build up 100 energy. Even after that 1 emp rarely does'nt do anything that would really matter. Not anything that 4+ tanks wouldn't be better at. Later on you got alot more gas most likely, and that's why they'd be better. And No, this doesn't mean "you can't go fast vessel or you're stupid" or anything...

But like one teacher once said: "You asked the question wrong, it is why WOULD you do it?"

Well, I get what you're saying. But with vessel you still have mobile detection, and won't have to stop every 5 seconds to build turrets.
Of course, I admit I suck horribly at pushing (the traditional siege/lay mines way anyway). I always get raped by P when I try it.

How well does an army of say, 10 gols and 10 tanks fare against 10 zealots and 10 dragoons, if the tanks DON'T siege?
How much micro should I use? I usually just siege and let the units handle themselves...but I get the impression the vultures (when i use vults, that is) go for the dragoons, and the tanks...well...they get raped so fast by the zealots... Should I FF the zeals with the vultures and the goons with the tanks?

[Ahzz]

You have comsat, doooohhh... just add 1-3 comsat stations to a group, gg.
in your example, it's very easy win for terran. even with just attack move. the goliaths should be in the front tho, and possible siege a few tanks and target goons (if they pick zeals, it will splash damage ur own units)

[blupp74]

You have comsat, doooohhh... just add 1-3 comsat stations to a group, gg.
in your example, it's very easy win for terran. even with just attack move. the goliaths should be in the front tho, and possible siege a few tanks and target goons (if they pick zeals, it will splash damage ur own units)

Guess that depends on the number of DT's then...cause if they have a larger number of them, they will have done some pretty heavy damage by the time I scan, even if it just takes a second after I notice the attack.

Guess I should practice that push some more then, and remember to FF the sieged tanks on the gols.

[Ahzz]

what are you talking about? you should see it very fast, and if you follow your units even a bit you should see the air moving, so you know its a dt.

Or if you cant do that, then maybe use one vessel but its only like "dont use vessels unless youre a noob"

[Siege_Commander]

Guys, Guys. i need tvp builds badly, and for about 1 page you guys have been arguin about sci vessels.:(

[blupp74]

what are you talking about? you should see it very fast, and if you follow your units even a bit you should see the air moving, so you know its a dt.

Or if you cant do that, then maybe use one vessel but its only like "dont use vessels unless youre a noob"

Yeah, yeah, ok, you're right, I should see the air moving. Could be an observer, but I'd notice pretty fast depending on if I get hit or not.
I haven't gotten into the situation yet, but I still think i'd feel more comfortable with a vessel.

[Siege_Commander]

mee to i guess. 1 could go then back, 4 times, then after no comsat, the full army with dts >.<

[raylu]

since it will take alot of gas to make them useful. Comsats are actually more useful than vessels if they haven't got emp, which takes another 200 gas, and it takes time to build up 100 energy. Even after that 1 emp rarely does'nt do anything that would really matter. Not anything that 4+ tanks wouldn't be better at.
Strangely, 4 tanks cost 200 gas...


Back to marines...
In a TvT game? Well, tanks and vultures horribly, grotesquely rape marines. A vulture only takes two shots, a tank takes one shot and kills about 4. Mines kill about 6 if they're lucky.
I meant versus Protoss.

[Siege_Commander]

no, each tanks cost 100 gas.

[MidnightGladius]

Storm and reavers, my friend..... you wouldn't believe how incredibly badly marines get slaughtered in TvP. The only possible scenario is if you surprise them with early M&M, and that's most decidedly not what you're talking about...

Or, we could just play a quick game, and I'd show you why you don't use rines TvP. You lose with them.

[blupp74]

We got a bit off topic here, I think...

And as for the attacking cliffs, and the floating of buildings and placing of tanks... This may not be enough, since the units/buildings on the cliff will have advantage despite the sight the building offers.
Unless I'm completely wrong, the units on ground still only have a certain percentage chans of actually hitting the high ground units.

So I think 2 sieged tanks on ground would lose to 2 tanks dropped on cliffs...even if they need time to siege.

[Siege_Commander]

Yeah, about 70 percent i think.

[WickedImposter]

ya. you could also have advantage of first hit. i did that today. 3 tanks high ground against 3 tanks low ground. you ff first shots and take out 1 tank, and youve pretty much won