How to stop turtling, #2 by Ninja95

[Ninja95]

OK. I play terran a lot. I want to stop turtling.
I have a major problem with expanding and attacking.
First off, I build some marines, firebats, and medics. I make a whole mess of 'em and I end up with around 50 of them.
Meanwhile, I make Tanks and goliaths, not vultures ( I don't like them )
I build a heavy defence around my base, with a bunker, turret and seiged tank at every two buildings, and have a cloud of units at my front gate.
I never expand because i'm afraid it'll be unprotected and die quick.
I eventually run out of min and gas, so I stay for a while, then move a ghost or wriath to find more min and gas, while comsat sweeping. By then, every freakin' min/gas is taken.
I try to attack, get all my units killed, the enemy attacks me, kills me completely and I lose.
...
I can't post replays (they won't upload)...
...
Help me please.

[Cpt.Chronic]

You have more problems than just turtling. You're playing the game completely wrong. Just watch some replays from www.ygclan.com and try to copy what they do.

[Siege_Commander]

Thats even worse than the regular sc comp.>.< If your terranvterran, its tanks with gols. Make sure to upgrade. You should expand when your resources i think are from 1100-800. TvP, its the same as tvt, except with vluts. Learn to love them. Mines and harrasing are there strentghs. TvZ, it just as you said, marines and medics and some firebats if alotta lings, with tanks/sci vessels or both. And you have to play to, not just watch replays.

[U-238]

of course gosugamers.net (sc.gosugamers.net), teamliquid (www.teamliquid.net), and pgtour (http://www.pgtour.net) have some pretty good replays too. ;)

[Siege_Commander]

Yeah. Try lookin @ the unofficial stratagey guides topic and the links there.

[blupp74]

You have to remember that your opponent wants to expand too, and is also worried the expansion will be attacked. Scouting is the key word.
You should not expand when your resources reach 800-1100, because they should never get that high.
If you both build equally fast you'll have the same size of force, and it's easier to defend than attack...so do some scouting, place some units in nice locations, and expand.

Bunkers with marines at every 2nd building is a huge waste of troops.
And 50 marines is absolutely out of the question, unless you're facing zerg.
Against terran or protoss you should ("normal" play) never build more than an initial 1-5 marines. Unless you wanna go crazy. But in that case you should also be using those marines...not bunkering them at the base.

But the fastest advice I can give you is what the others have said: Watch replays. There are plenty of them on this forum, in the replay discussion thread. U-238, Ahzz, lammas and a few others are good examples.
And, if i may say so, sometimes even me. :)

[U-238]

If your opponent's any good he shouldn't be too worried about expanding unless he's scouted some cheese build like a bunker rush on his nat. Since you play T there's a little trick you can use to safely get out of your main and into the expo next to you. Simply build the command center in your base then lift it off and float it over to the expo. Send you troops along with it and transfer about 12 scvs from your main mineral line over to it and boom! Instant defended expo! Btw allthough siegy covered these already here's a list of what the "standards" are for each race match up.

TvT (Terran vs Terran)

Basicly it's a tank war with the loser being the one the screws up first. 4-6 factories pumping constantly should be enough to maintain a good sized army.

TvP (Terran vs Protoss)

It's much like TvT. Mass tanks except this time cut the goliaths untill late game and add in vultures. Yea you may not like them but when upgraded they have power.

TvZ (Terran vs Zerg)

This is where the marines come in. M&Ms (Marines and Medics) work wonders against small zerg units. (Like zerglings and hydralisks and even ultralisks) However you'll need to watch it since they get shreded buy lurkers. Add in tanks if you see sings of lurks asap.

[MidnightGladius]

You need to get over your irrational fear of failure. That, and what everyone else said :P

[raylu]

Since you seem to prefer infantry, use your Comsat to scout them out. When you see a weakness (such as a new expansion), go attack.

With metal, either go for an early Comsat anyway or use vultures/marines to scout.

Especially versus Protoss, you can just push out early; set up some tanks, perhaps a bunker, mines, and turrets in front of their natural. This will contain them and allow you to both push slowly into their base or expand all over the map.

Or, like I said earlier, use Dropship harass :D

[MatGeo]

Since you seem to prefer infantry, use your Comsat to scout them out.

If he wants to win he should let aside the i prefer infantry...screw vults thing.... personally i prefer air i prefer BCs to tanks i prefer Carriers to goons or archons... i prefer Guards to Ultras...etc. But i don't use what i prefer i use what i must....

If you want to stand a chance in a game forget unit preferences and go for what might win the game....

[raylu]

I'm aware, but it seems he's gotten enough advice about massing infantry already.

[Siege_Commander]

You have to remember that your opponent wants to expand too, and is also worried the expansion will be attacked. Scouting is the key word.
You should not expand when your resources reach 800-1100, because they should never get that high.
If you both build equally fast you'll have the same size of force, and it's easier to defend than attack...so do some scouting, place some units in nice locations, and expand.

Bunkers with marines at every 2nd building is a huge waste of troops.
And 50 marines is absolutely out of the question, unless you're facing zerg.
Against terran or protoss you should ("normal" play) never build more than an initial 1-5 marines. Unless you wanna go crazy. But in that case you should also be using those marines...not bunkering them at the base.

But the fastest advice I can give you is what the others have said: Watch replays. There are plenty of them on this forum, in the replay discussion thread. U-238, Ahzz, lammas and a few others are good examples.
And, if i may say so, sometimes even me. :)

I meant when the min patches say 800-1100 to expo, not when you have that much.:P

[WickedImposter]

lol. if you have 800-1100 resources your in trouble :P anyways, it all depends on race mu. if oyu mass infantry everytime, you have a problem, as vults>infantry, toss ground>infantry. so usually mm is only effective against zerg.

[TitanWing]

I meant when the min patches say 800-1100 to expo, not when you have that much.:P
I expand as quickly as I can afford. 2x resource income = 2x unit production and upgrades.

[MidnightGladius]

Yes, hypothetically, if you can keep it alive long enough to do either =/

[raylu]

It also means 2x the map that you have to defend and upwards of 500 in command center + defense cost.

[WickedImposter]

lol he is right. however expos are very useful. however raylu is right. it does mean the 500+ defense costs. and it does split your forces. however 2x resources can even out the cost reletively fast

[blupp74]

lol he is right. however expos are very useful. however raylu is right. it does mean the 500+ defense costs. and it does split your forces. however 2x resources can even out the cost reletively fast
Plus, in maps like LT they'd have to pass your main to get to the expo unless they cliff-drop. Of course, you'll lose the luxury of ramp/choke if you stand infront of the expo, but for T the tanks reach pretty far.

[Siege_Commander]

Well if you expo around same time, wouldnt matter about the forces thing, for a few moments it probably will, but the benifit of like 13,500 min and 5000 more gas more than makes up for those moments.

[Ninja95]

yes...yessss...feed me info...
Mass Marines=good on my mind
Marines=cheap
Marines=1 supply
Marines=Total Pwnage if you have 200 of them. (I tried this once by sending all my scvs on suicide then massing marines. TOTAL PWNAGE)

[U-238]

lol, yea I'll bet it's total pwnage. 24 lurkers, or better yet ultra/ling with defilers darkswarm... yea that's total pwnage.

[own3d0406]

Ahhh yes, that was how I played the first week I got SC, turtle, mass, attack. Never worked, boy I was sure a noob.

[raylu]

Well if you expo around same time, wouldnt matter about the forces thing, for a few moments it probably will, but the benifit of like 13,500 min and 5000 more gas more than makes up for those moments.
Of course it's worth it in the long run, but I've lost many games in those "few moments."

Then again, this was back when I was a newbie and expanded whenever I felt like it without considering my enemy's status.

[Siege_Commander]

lol. exactly what notto do

[WickedImposter]

yes...yessss...feed me info...
Mass Marines=good on my mind
Marines=cheap
Marines=1 supply
Marines=Total Pwnage if you have 200 of them. (I tried this once by sending all my scvs on suicide then massing marines. TOTAL PWNAGE)

you are a noob arnt you? the only way you could possibly win by massing 200 marines is if you were playing someone more nooby then you. its like this. because you massed 200 marines,

10 dts= your screwed

5 lurks= your screwed

any assortment of terran metal= your screwed

ya i see the merit of massing 200 marines. and as an added bonus, after your force dies, you dont have workers! what a gosu strat!

edit: unless your playing fastest. in which case, YOUR A BIGGER NOOB

[U-238]

Stow you tounge, 5 lurks or 10 dt's arn't a threat as long as he was smart enough to have a comsat handy. Also if he's as much of a noob as you make him out to be he'll probably have a few thousand minerals left to recreate his workforce as his army dies. (ofc if he has no minerals then there's no point in remakeing scvs)

The point is, who cares if rines are ceap and can be mass produced? They're also weak. 40hp isn't going to take you places. Get your head out of the armor suit and sit down inside a tank for once. You might just find it's rather comfy.

[WickedImposter]

sigh. i cannot disobey U-238. i guess your right. however, if his opponent was smart, as soon as the enemy would move them out of the way. a comsat only has a maximum of 4 scans in it. lol though

"Get your head out of the armor suit and sit down inside a tank for once. You might just find it's rather confy"

however, what makes you think that he will make a comsat if we was "smart" enough to suicide his workers? who suicides workers in a map like lt or luna?

[raylu]

Actually...on a map like LT, I would just build a building off in some corner somewhere where his marines couldn't reach me and defend it with a sunken, cannon, or tank.

But anyway, can we stop talking about why 200 marines are ineffective?

[WickedImposter]

lol. yes it does seem that we reached an agreement. it sucks.

[U-238]

however, what makes you think that he will make a comsat if we was "smart" enough to suicide his workers? who suicides workers in a map like lt or luna?

Any player when the games lasted for an hour long and the map's been sucked dry of minerals. However I doubt that the map will be empty before he has 200/200 expecialy if he has no expo and can still win.

sigh. i cannot disobey U-238

You got that damn right private! Now carry on with your duties, on the double...

[WickedImposter]

Any player when the games lasted for an hour long and the map's been sucked dry of minerals. However I doubt that the map will be empty before he has 200/200 expecialy if he has no expo and can still win.

ya. a map being sucked dry only happens once in every like 1000 games ive only ever heard of 2 instances where that has happened.



You got that damn right private! Now carry on with your duties, on the double...

im going to have to file a complaint for overcomtempt :P

[Siege_Commander]

Lol.*Looks @ topic"how to stop turtling #2 by ninja95" and wonders what the hell 200 rines have to do with this*

[WickedImposter]

Mass Marines=good on my mind
Marines=cheap
Marines=1 supply
Marines=Total Pwnage if you have 200 of them. (I tried this once by sending all my scvs on suicide then massing marines. TOTAL PWNAGE)

it all started when i read this commander :smirk:

[blupp74]

I was a turtler myself, until very recently.
What helped me was playing people better than me, getting the crap beaten out of me, and then watching the replays.

The answer to the problem was simply: Stop.

If you learn the timing and BO's, you know that when you have X amount buildings/units, your opponent can only have either X, Y, or Z, depending on which BO/path he chose. In either case you're free to do either A or B.
...if that makes any sense...

For example: If I have perfect timing (which I will never have...but it gets better and better), and I face T, I know that by the time I have my first tank out, he will either have a few vults, 1 vult and a few marines, many marines, or 1 tank like me. If I go to his base and my tank gets killed, I'll still have time to produce new units before he gets to me. So I'm not afraid of going there. Turtling overcome.

Should you decide to stay inside, and completely fail in the scouting, you'll find your base surrounded by tanks and turrets, and you're dead.

Tip: Use your barracks, or ebay when it's built. Float it to the enemy. It will give your tanks extra range. Build turrets there though, cause he will get goliaths or wraiths to kill your floating buildings off.

Tip #2: Scout with SCV. (9th or 10th, maybe). Keep it alive in his base as long as you can, so you see what he's doing. If it dies, and you can't get in again, and you don't have comsat (thus cannot see his base), I suggest you either (by default) build an ebay and some turrets around your base, or build an armory for goliaths. Cause going for your tank push and then finding either the push or your base completely screwed by a few measely wraiths really sucks (a lesson reminded yesterday, courtesy of MidnightGladius). And you'll want gols against T anyway, mostly.

Tip#3: Expanding is nice. But it's not all coconut-trees and smooth breeze just because you managed to expand to your nat. Another lesson learned when facing MG. Cause he had contained me outside my nat, the little &/%&¤#. So keep scouting, and make sure you don't get locked in.

[lammas]

imo its too early to start wondering about as complicated shit as timings because early game timings only mean something if its perfect timing vs perfect timing. It wont help you to know that with 2fac gol drop build you would have units to crush his fast exapansion if you have macroed so that those 8gols are 5minutes late and your opponent has 10tanks sitting in his base. Just concentrate in making units nothing else matters.

[blupp74]

imo its too early to start wondering about as complicated shit as timings because early game timings only mean something if its perfect timing vs perfect timing. It wont help you to know that with 2fac gol drop build you would have units to crush his fast exapansion if you have macroed so that those 8gols are 5minutes late and your opponent has 10tanks sitting in his base. Just concentrate in making units nothing else matters.

Well, it helped me in realizing I don't have to worry too much about getting crushed by early attack, which in turn helped me stop turtling.
I used to build up a solid defense, in which time he massed and expanded like hell. When I started my first expansion he already had 2. So when I got ready for my first attack, his army was three times as big. My attack would be crushed, and the remains of his army (probably only decimated by 10%) goes to my base and kills me.

Now I build some units, scout, and either attack or expand early.
Before I had less confidence in my builds I did neither, until I had what I thought was a big army.