From Z to P

[EvilEmpire]

Heres the deal. I play Z but with every past game I realize that I suck from bad to worse. No army weak iconomics yada yada..
But lately I try my poor luck with toss and if I do say so myself I do better (beter as in beter than with Z, not beter than a living and healthy person)in few aspects like economics and defence.. :shiftyl:
So if some people can lay down the basics of P playing :). You know.. how to start off, whats most important with P what to forget from playing Z... :rolleyes:
Be carefull who youre dealing with (me) im a SC fanatic for 8 years and I still suck, a very very rare breed.

[Cpt.Chronic]

Build buildings and units and attack and defend. That pretty much covers it.

[blupp74]

Heres the deal. I play Z but with every past game I realize that I suck from bad to worse. No army weak iconomics yada yada..
But lately I try my poor luck with toss and if I do say so myself I do better (beter as in beter than with Z, not beter than a living and healthy person)in few aspects like economics and defence.. :shiftyl:
So if some people can lay down the basics of P playing :). You know.. how to start off, whats most important with P what to forget from playing Z... :rolleyes:
Be carefull who youre dealing with (me) im a SC fanatic for 8 years and I still suck, a very very rare breed.

I guess it's the same as for the other races: Know which unit(s) counter which unit(s) best. Then build them to counter your enemy. Scout, of course. Be weary of sneaky tactics, etc.

Z tends to expand more and faster than P or T. But P is 2nd in that list.
But I'm a T player, so maybe I should just shut my mouth :/

[Ninja95]

did you buy the sc battle chest? use the prima guides 4 the basics, then modify them to your preference.

[U-238]

Prima guides are the last thing you'll want to follow along with. They're great for beating the missions but they're embarresingly outdated for regular play.

I'm not a P player at all. I don't even know the right builds for any mu other than PvZ. Which is usually 2gate. (8 probes, then pylon, 10 probes, then gateway,14 probes, then gateway 2, etc)

I don't know any good guides either. I'll look around and see what I can dig up.

*grabs spade*

[MidnightGladius]

http://www.artofprotoss.vze.com/

That's a pretty good link, in my opinion.

Anyways, the main difference between Z and P is that with P, you can't go "kk, 10 units just died, no big deal" like you would with Zerg. You have to learn to micro more and keep your units alive. Shield Batteries can actually be surprisingly useful, though they seem underused as queens.

[Siege_Commander]

protoss units are like at least twice as expensive as z units. as middy, said, micro is needed. I do not have micro, so i switched to T^_^. But um, vT if you have 1 more expo than t, you should be able to over pwer them, v z, i think youre supposed to only have 2 less expos than z. But im not sure.

[EvilEmpire]

Thanks, thanks, keep it coming..
Im getting the 9/10 Gate Zeal Rush vs Z, well I modify it a lil' bit basically draining the Z till reinforcements arive (in 2v2/3v3) I don't know if thats reasonable..
I found some Build orders in BF but im sceptical about written stuff, there are allways "what if"'s not covered.. I mean like.. what if the other players actually play...

[Siege_Commander]

did you buy the sc battle chest? use the prima guides 4 the basics, then modify them to your preference.

The prima guides are like what not to do>.< There only for the missions. I mean come on," use ensnare offensivly to bog down opponents while your own file past. BS right there.:mad:

[splatt0r]

Try to build a pylon and a shield battery near their choke after building your first gateway at your main. When you can afford it, build another gateway and another battery. This is pretty effective agaisnt Zerg, once you get forge + cannons. Just micro as hell and 1 zeal will be able to kill many many lings. Ive been succeseful with this, but its really risky if he does a decent scout.

[MatGeo]

Vs Z you should have lotta exps coz if not Ultra/ling owns the crap out of you...

Now i don't know for PvP but in PvT tech straight to goons mass goons and att...in PvZ u should go zeals+archons+HT(w storm)...

[Kamikaze_Chicken]

Learn and Love the Magic... that's all I can say

[Siege_Commander]

How the hell does that help him? Arent you the guy who was like,"always build marines?" lol you gave crap advice in my topcis.

[EvilEmpire]

Learn and Love the Magic... that's all I can say

How the hell does that help him? Arent you the guy who was like,"always build marines?" lol you gave crap advice in my topcis.
How come? Spec abilities are very important for toss's expensive army.
But 30zeals+20goons seem to do the trick in PvZ :confused: atleast when I prevent him expo actively..
I was allways wondering.. how can I use Scouts efficiently?
--
Good news for me, now with toss I get 60 APM, while with Z I could not top 40 :).. BTW is that good or Im overreacting?

[Siege_Commander]

I dont know. But v zerg, its just zealots, archons, dark tepmlar if ultra/ling, and storm. And scouts suck.

[splatt0r]

How do you guys know your apm?

Anyways, scouts aren't really effective, and are weak against almost every unit. I don't use them, they are too expensive, but of course they can be good if massed (like almost any massed unit).

[MidnightGladius]

lol, my APM when I was playing Zerg regularly was at about 140... <shrug>

You don't use Scouts effectively. Simple as that :)

[MatGeo]

How do you guys know your apm?

Anyways, scouts aren't really effective, and are weak against almost every unit. I don't use them, they are too expensive, but of course they can be good if massed (like almost any massed unit).

Bw launcher has a live apm program which tells u u'r apm in-game....

[raylu]

That's PenguinPlug, which everyone confuses with BWL because it uses that as it's DLL injector.

I wouldn't recommend scouts for anything except capital ships either. Go for corsairs versus Zerg.

[Siege_Commander]

How would you get that to work anyway? i have bwlauncher and pp, there a lot of stuff in pp i know, but it doesnt happenen>< no auto saved replays. im not sure about the replays with text. no apm count. Ive heard you have to type a command to have the apm count, but i dont know what it is. @ Middy: O_O i bet i have like 30apm.lol.

[Cpt.Chronic]

I have started using scouts lately when I go reaver/sair or dt/sair and the zerg tries to dominate air thru devourers. I've found if you add a few scouts with your sairs, toss can actually win an air battle vs. devourers.

[WickedImposter]

140 apm isnt too high (not sure what the average is.) i will join in in the bashing of prima guides. i tried to listen to then for a few games. i went 0-10. i disagree with all of you except chronic on the subject of scouts. sairs may be good, but they tech to devos, sairs become almost obsolete. the acid spores slows attacks down considerably, and they have armor, i think its 2 base, which makes sair dmg only 3. however, devos coupled with sairs would be awesome :). im not sure that scouts would help considerably, though. because spores would also slow down the scouts attack. normally, id stick to storm and strom to get the airs clear

[raylu]

Well, a devourer is similar to a capital ship in many ways. Scouts do make sense against them, as does psionic storm. I would just get goliaths or scourges, of course :P

[Ahzz]

140 apm isnt too high
heh? It depends exactly how much you spam. I don't spam ever after game start, not by one thing and I got 110-140 or a bit more or so. and it's more than enough. Fisheye, one of the best protosses outside korea has like 120 apm. Let's take another example. I got my 110-140 apm, but I still do everything faster, better, more accurately than a guy I know who has 250 apm...

[Siege_Commander]

Lol. That would be like 170 stupid mistakes and 80 smart moves.

[EvilEmpire]

Lol. That would be like 170 stupid mistakes and 80 smart moves.
lol? One mistake can cost you the game, are you shure you didnt mean 170 useless actions? People spam actions just to warm up but thats some hellova warm up...

[Siege_Commander]

Thats what i meant.>.< i have like 50-60apm.

[blupp74]

Thats what i meant.>.< i have like 50-60apm.

I think I've maxed at 70, or something. Still, I've beaten people who had over 100. So APM may account for something, but it definetly won't win any games in itself.

[B.A.Baracus]

Empire said I had around 85 in our match, yaay for me:D
Now if only I could learn to play^^
Oh and always get obs then storm in pvz evil, lurks are made for contain. Sair if they mut rush.

[WickedImposter]

140 apm isnt too high

oops sry my bad. Ahzz had made me realize that 140 apm is pretty high :bonk: . i maybe get 80 tops. i was comparing to friends i have. they have like 300 apm and they really good. maybe i can get them on east one day and have them 1v1 ahzz.

[EvilEmpire]

Empire said I had around 85 in our match, yaay for me:D
Now if only I could learn to play^^
Shut the fuck up. You play decent.
--
I realise that I just cant get more apm because I cant move my fingers fast enough and hit the right buttons:mad:.
A good way to improove onself's APM is to get a friend whos better than you and start playing a lot of games 2v2 vs comps or 1v1 vs your friend, but set the game speed to "fast" or "normal", that way you have more time to think over your actions, and improve micro, you're friend being a good player will be preferable so he can tell you what to do and when to do it and stuff like that.

[MidnightGladius]

APM is useful for the micro that can win/lose games - eg, storm dancing hydras, clump muta harass, big dswarm flanks - but you can get away, most of the time, with better macro.

[B.A.Baracus]

Ive had a steady 100 apm all day, Im so proud ^^.
Anyway, better mac almost always wups micro, as Ive learned the hard way.

[Siege_Commander]

hell yeah. lol i dont care if you can micro 4 rines to take out 6lots, not if i have 6 more comin lol.:P

[WickedImposter]

lol commander. eaarly game, though, 6 lots can make a big difference. think of it this way. he just killed 600 min worth of zlots, and then your attacking again. what if he kills the other 6 zlots? THATS OVER 1000 MINS LOST!

[blupp74]

lol commander. eaarly game, though, 6 lots can make a big difference. think of it this way. he just killed 600 min worth of zlots, and then your attacking again. what if he kills the other 6 zlots? THATS OVER 1000 MINS LOST!

Yeah, but if he only has a few marines at hand, he'll have to use SCV's too.
Not only are they not mining while under attack, some of them will also get killed. So I think T will lose more.

Of course, if P comes with 6 zealots, and another 6 are soon to come, T should have either a decent horde of marines (not just 4), or a few vultures.
Most of all, T should have scouted P and when seeing zeal rush preparation (several gates, no cy-core), built a wall, and no zeals will come in at all. So that's 1200 minerals wasted for P, as T's vultures will CRUSH THEM!!

[MidnightGladius]

Theorycrafting... lol

So, is there anything else we need to say about playing Protoss? :/

[WickedImposter]

ya. a pretty well used strat against t that ive seen used against me is quick zlot contain to cannon push. heres a rep i have where the other person did that, cannon push from lower ground to kill wallin. but he was noob and went a little *ahem* overboard. with offensive citadul of adun and stargate. just watch it. i think this is it.

http://www.warboards.org/showthread.php?t=19909&page=3

its down there somewhere

[Siege_Commander]

I cant find it lol. And what do you mean" zlot contain? What do you mean,"offensive cannon"? I mean come on, Tanks/vults countre thoses two, and say you were 12 or 9, you sould have mined past your expo for zlot contain.

[EvilEmpire]

Nono, he means that proxy at the enemys choke, go there very early build a pilon, gate, battery and in that time 2 zeals come from the single gate situated in your main. Then start harrasing.

[Siege_Commander]

Oh, i see. Once i can view it, i will