Terran Questions

[Siege_Commander]

Just like my other thread, i got some terran questions.
1. On TvP When do you roll out and expand?
2. on TvT when do you roll out and expand?
3.What is the 4 gol drop BO?

That is all for now. I am desperatly waiting for Ahzzy and Lammy's Terran 101 guide.^_^ Reply please. im gonna post a rep of my first TvT in the discussion thread.

[lammas]

1. when you have enought units for it. and knowing that is the tricksy part. but if your opponent has done double expand roll out around 100 suply and start pushing to his expansions. if he has still only 1 exp at that point expand yourself because if he has 1exp he should have enought units to stop you anyways.
2. hmh make 3dropships after expanding and attack with those.
3. 10 (or 12 if u feel like being wannabe koreansemipro) barracks 12 (make 2marines if u dont wall) gas, 15suply (some people wall when doing gol drop some dont just as u like) 16 fac 18 fac, armory (when u have 100 while making scvs all the time), starport (when u have 150 making scvs all the time)

[WickedImposter]

ya lammas about covered it. wait heres a link to a version of it

http://www.pgtour.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=25633&db=bw

its all the way down in the lime section somewhere. btw where can i get the guides from ahzz and lammas?

[Siege_Commander]

Lol its not here yet.

Terran question#4What are you supposed to do to stop DTs from stopping your push, while your comsat doesnt have enrgy or turrets are nnot yet constructed? In a game I played, i was just moving out and he had DTs in my path. I was just building an acad, and oviously no turrets yet. Should I build an acad earlier?

[Veeger]

When I'm playing, I typically have two SCVs (9 and 10 build, usually) as my "builders" for the early part of the game. One of them builds nothing but depots, and the other builds a barracks, followed by a bunker (meanwhile, I'm still pumping out SCVs, who by now one is building/built a refinery), and I then move on to an engineering bay, then an academy, and finally a second barracks.

That gets the academy up fairly quick. I don't believe in setting up a bunker (for very long, anyway) without a turret to accompany it. It's like driving a car with a blindfold on. It's just stupid.

[U-238]

Terran question#4What are you supposed to do to stop DTs from stopping your push, while your comsat doesnt have enrgy or turrets are nnot yet constructed? In a game I played, i was just moving out and he had DTs in my path. I was just building an acad, and oviously no turrets yet. Should I build an acad earlier?

Well it depends when they're going for dts. Most of the time you should have an at least an acad/ebay up. (I don't remember which T comes first in TvP ebay or acad I'll have to check) DT rush cheese is stopable as long as you scout it by building an ebay asap.

[MidnightGladius]

Generally, you would get your ebay first, but some prefer to get scan to scout their tech. I personally think you're better off going ebay first (counter obs, as well) but scan not long afterwards.

[LordOfNukes]

I always go E Bay before Academy. If the enemy isn't constantly harassing with Dark templar and I get my Academy at around 55 supply.

If you scout a Citadel and/or Templar Archvies in their base or a Robotics Support Bay, you should get an E Bay as fast as possible; usually after your first factory unless you're going for a 2 fac build where you may have already started your second factory. Otherwise, I get one after my second and hope I didn't miss finding his tech. :P

[WickedImposter]

its mainly about scouting. if you scout temp archs, build ebay immediatly. if you dont scout anything special that involves dts, you can always get acad first

[MidnightGladius]

You never know when they hide tech, though, and mines can be nasty if you try to anti-DT with them. And besides, ebay is also good for warding off reavers drop, if only temporarily, as well as obs.

[Siege_Commander]

Well that doesn't answer my question. Its how to stop it while im pushing I built ebay right after i scouted cit, then turrets around my base. Unfortunatly, it was a crappy bilzz map and I didnt know it. I almost covered my base with turrets, well not really, around droppable places, but i forgot a spot. and i had no units, I was starting to push. my scvs got raped, then I had to leave.>.<

[MidnightGladius]

Well, for one thing, you should never play a serious game on a Blizzard map. They are terrible. Absolutely terrible.

And for another, why no turrets in the mineral line? That's really where it matters the most.

[Siege_Commander]

I did put turrets in the min line, i requested another map, but the guy i was playeing with had terrible lat issues with me, so he refused to change it. That was not fair. He already knew the map but i didn't.:(

[MidnightGladius]

Um, what's wrong with generic Lost Temple? And if you had turrets in the min line, how did his DTs still kill your SCVs?

[Siege_Commander]

I was pushing out, had no units in base, and a part of my main was hidden from my view so i didn't see the dts and shuttle.

[MidnightGladius]

Then you run the SCVs around a bit, and your next batch of vult/tank kills them. Simple.

[Siege_Commander]

I didn't notice until almost all of them were killed. And Damn blizz mains are small. BTW Middy, what time is it where you are at?

[MidnightGladius]

1:22 in the morning. No big deal.

And how did you not notice 4 dots in your main, along with the "under attack" msg? I can understand for Z and P (1 hit kill on workers), but T, at least, you get some warning.

Besides, you should always check up on all of your mineral lines periodically.

[Cpt.Chronic]

Seige Commander, If you don't have a scanner, you can't really "push out" if he has dts all over the place. You said you scouted dt tech, yet you left your base completely undefended to make an attack that had no detection capabilities, which meant there was 0% chance for success in it, and 100% chance in losing scvs at your main if dts got in. When you push out vs. a dt user, you will want at least 2 scanners, and you can use them to buy your scvs time to build turrets. If you want to attack sooner, your options are pretty much limited to speed vultures with mines, but you can really do some damage if you get them in his base. Also, vultures with mines is the best way to defend against a dt drop. Put a few mines next to turrets that are near your CC (not right next to miners of course). One tactic that can buy you a little time is to float your e-bay or barracks over a turret to completely cover it. This will make it impossible for the dts to target it, but they will still auto target it if nothing is attacking them, so it's best to have a couple vults nearby to clean up what the mines don't take out. If you use these two tactics together, you'll never lose to another dt drop.

[Siege_Commander]

Thanks chron. I did have a scanner, but it had no enerhy as dts were near the front of mmy base. I am never joining a crappy blizz map again:<

[Cpt.Chronic]

Then why did you say this:
"In a game I played, i was just moving out and he had DTs in my path. I was just building an acad, and oviously no turrets yet. Should I build an acad earlier?"
But even if you did have a scanner, 1 is usually not enough to protect an attack force unless that force is all vults. 2 scanners can buy you enough time to set up turrets, so basically, you don't "move out" vs. a strong dt build till you have 2 scanners.

[Siege_Commander]

Ok. I got mixed up I guess. But he had dts in my path twice.

[TitanWing]

Hey commander!
Preparing for a rematch?

I usually expand after my factory in TvT.
When I played you I noticed that you expanded after your main ran out. That's a little too late.

[Siege_Commander]

What? I expo before my main runs out, and v you, i expoed like 5 times. What are you talking about?

[PrestonBurke]

About the DT thing, i agree with those that build a engineering bay first. A adcademy and then Comstat will only slow down your SCV production. But generally i build a Comstat after my first factory. I'm one of those people that go crazy with miners. LOL

BTW your Sig's pretty cool

[Siege_Commander]

Thanks. and youre supposed to have a lot of scvs, something i need to memorize.>.<

[Siege_Commander]

Can some one give me T BOs for tvp and tvz? lol i fought matgeo today, and acidental alost went metal BO.

[WickedImposter]

lol go to pgtour.net. they have tons of BOs. also, i want in on your rematch. im 1-0 against you ^^

[lammas]

heres one for tvz:
9suply
11 rax
13suply
marines all the time
20 expansion
22 rax
24suply
26gas
scv that built 24suply makes academy
scv that build expansion cc make third rax
then you float cc to expansion, upgrade stimpacks, whe u get 125 minerals make ebay, and ofc make marines and suplys all the time. around 60 or 70 suply (depending if you must mass turrets agaisnt muta) you make 2factorys. addon for both. then make 4tanks upgrade siege and walkover your opponent.

[blupp74]

...but since I absolutely hate losing fast to some stupid rush, i do:

8 rax
9 supply
11-12 another rax
then supply and pump marines as econ allows
when econ allows build factory and then starport/science fac, for vessel

ok, that wasn't so exact, but I don't have it in my head.
The 8 rax 9 depot is probably the key thing.
Sure, early rush can be fought off with scv's, but how many scv's do you lose during that battle? And isn't that worse than the econ you lose when building rax at 8? I think so anyway, and it has worked like a charm against a lot of people.

[Siege_Commander]

Bllup, scv production>1 rine that omes faster. and lammy, you mean attack @ 60-70 supply? O_O too late for me. Any other ones?

[Ahzz]

you gotta learn to macro better if it's too late for you. and yes, he does mean attack at 60-70 supply. Normally you'd have 60-70 supply maybe around 8-9 mins maybe, just a guess.

[blupp74]

Bllup, scv production>1 rine that omes faster. and lammy, you mean attack @ 60-70 supply? O_O too late for me. Any other ones?

I agree 100% to that, when everything goes well. But if there is a zergling rush, which happens to me a lot, I'd rather have 1 extra marine when they come. Especially since they tend to go for the scv's, and if I lose extra scv's because I had too few marines, then I'm put back anyway.

With early rax I feel more confident and make less mistakes, because I don't worry about rush. And that scv i put on hold for 12 seconds I more than make up for later in the game.

[Ahzz]

that's why you scout in time, to see if he does ling rush, and bring a few scvs to the choke

[blupp74]

that's why you scout in time, to see if he does ling rush, and bring a few scvs to the choke

In a perfect world, yes. And sometimes that's exactly what I do.
But other times my SCV dies too fast, or don't find him soon enough...and to avoid that, I sometimes prefer building an early rax. In the long run, I've never felt I'm too far behind in macro. Not due to the early rax anyway.

WHen I build early rax I usually scout when rax no 2 is being built. Late scout, yes, but then again I'm usually equpped to deal with whatever I find.

[Ahzz]

dies too early? that means he either does fast pool, in which case you brings scvs in time, or he's not pooling, in which case you need no scvs at all. If you're feeling unsure, just send your eigtht or ninth scv to scout. You should find him early enough in that case. Besides, if you get attacked by a fast pool you probably won't go for a fast expansion just yet, or not at all at the moment.besides, you'll still have 2 marines or so when he arrives, and unless you waste them, with fair scv micro you'll have no bigger problems.

[Siege_Commander]

you could like either put scvs infront of rines, forming a wall, or just put the rines in your min line.

Now I need tvp bos please. Ive been attacked by ahzzys comp with one goon @ first, then anotheer, then some lots... Ive heard theres a bo youe supposed to do, and if you time it right, your fisrt tank comes right in time to stop goon. But i have no idea of what it is :P

[blupp74]

you could like either put scvs infront of rines, forming a wall, or just put the rines in your min line.

Now I need tvp bos please. Ive been attacked by ahzzys comp with one goon @ first, then anotheer, then some lots... Ive heard theres a bo youe supposed to do, and if you time it right, your fisrt tank comes right in time to stop goon. But i have no idea of what it is :P

Here's one:
8 depot
10 rax
11 refinery
12 depot
(SCV's all the time).
WHen refinery is done I send 2 more SCV's to get gas (sometimes 3 more...I heard somewhere you get some extra gas per minute that way).
Having nothing better to spend minerals on, I usually make 3-4 marines while collecting gas, and when gas reaches 100 I have 200 minerals and start the first factory. While it is building I reach another 200/100, so I usually start another factory. When the 1st one is done I start addon, and when addon is completed I have 150/100 for the first tank.
I usually have no problem getting the first tank out for the first goon. Sometimes the goon is a bit ahead, but then I use the marines to fend it off the few seconds needed. They usually try to press the marines, but as soon as they get hit by the tank, they leave.

[blupp74]

dies too early? that means he either does fast pool, in which case you brings scvs in time, or he's not pooling, in which case you need no scvs at all. If you're feeling unsure, just send your eigtht or ninth scv to scout. You should find him early enough in that case. Besides, if you get attacked by a fast pool you probably won't go for a fast expansion just yet, or not at all at the moment.besides, you'll still have 2 marines or so when he arrives, and unless you waste them, with fair scv micro you'll have no bigger problems.

Well, I guess that problem occurs mostly in 2v2, now that I think of it.
I rarely die to a rush in 1v1. But when facing zerg I still feel more comfortable building early rax (i rarely do it TvP or TvT), and I really don't feel I get THAT far behind economically. I'm no micro master either, so using 2-3 SCV's with the marines to fend off a rush usually means I'm down 2-3 SCV's when the rush is over. And I think early rax is better than that.
(This is where you'll say "Practise micro more", and I'll say "I don't wanna :P")

[WickedImposter]

your bo is good blupp. however, it goes too much supply too early on. 12 supply is relatively fast, and with those 100 mins your could have had a SCV and a marine producing.

[blupp74]

your bo is good blupp. however, it goes too much supply too early on. 12 supply is relatively fast, and with those 100 mins your could have had a SCV and a marine producing.
Well, not really. The depot *starts* at 12 (may be 13-14...i'm not sitting infront of the game now...that's just an estimate) and a marine and scv is of course already pumping.
SCV's pump all the time (until late game, where I either haven't managed to expo and will surely lose anyway, or where I have expoed and completely gotten lost in building more buildings and producing units, I forget SCV's).
Against P and T marines stop after...oh...maybe 4.

Question: When facing T or P I know I won't need many marines, but since almost everything else also requires gas, I don't really have anything to spend minerals on but marines and SCV's early game (early game in this case being after 1st depot and barracks is built, scv and 1 marine building, but i still have mineral surplus), since I don't have refinery yet. Or should I just save those minerals for early expo? Or early ebay?
I always figure 2 extra marines could come in handy incase they rush me...and since I don't have the gas yet, it's not like I need the minerals for anything else...

[lammas]

12depo is a bit early.. rather 14 or 15 depo as you have no need for it any earlier. in tvp you dont need any marines unless you are in very close/there is no wall/you are going for early attack.

[Siege_Commander]

You could go bio mech or gundam rush with those rines.

[raylu]

Question: When facing T or P I know I won't need many marines, but since almost everything else also requires gas, I don't really have anything to spend minerals on but marines and SCV's early game (early game in this case being after 1st depot and barracks is built, scv and 1 marine building, but i still have mineral surplus), since I don't have refinery yet. Or should I just save those minerals for early expo? Or early ebay?
I always figure 2 extra marines could come in handy incase they rush me...and since I don't have the gas yet, it's not like I need the minerals for anything else...

Maybe it's just me, but I always find I hit 100 gas before 200 minerals (and I start with only 2 SCVs on the refinery). Those two extra Marines are too costly.

Scout early and see if he's skipping Zealots. If so, you could afford to go 0 Marines.

[Siege_Commander]

dude, four peons on gas for t and p.

[WickedImposter]

ya. you need more gas for tanks and tech against toss. but hes right. if he is skipping zlots to goon or something, you could afford no rines and quick tech to vults, mines, and tanks.

[Cpt.Chronic]

You only need marines if you don't wall your choke (i.e. Luna) or if you plan on an early attack.

[Ahzz]

I like to do a few more marines if I'm going fast expo tvp, that way it's more defended, since if he just powered units 2-3 tanks alone won't easily beat it.

[WickedImposter]

ya. but its not like 3-4 rines can really help if he overuns your expo with a dozen zealots, does it? im not sure. maybe with a little micro it would work. maybe.

[Siege_Commander]

He wont have 12 zealots if you fe, now will he? and no way 4 rines with micro can take 12 lots (i think). But come on guys, Chron, Ahzzy, Lammy if youre here, i need tvp BOs.>.<

[Ahzz]

then stop babblin shit and go download some pro replays. :D:D

[Siege_Commander]

Lol. youre serious? 4 rines v 12 lots? O_O

[MidnightGladius]

S_C, did you check your post originators? Those two statements were made by completely different people :/

Anyways, my TvP build is just a little bit different from yours, blupp...

8.5depot (wall)
10rax (wall)
12ref (4 SCVs on ref after done)
15depot (wall)
18fac
22fac

Pump tanks from 2 factories while getting vult upgrades until you get 8 tanks. If they went mass goon early on (which it seems a lot of Ps do), you should be able to push out to your natural and expand.

[blupp74]

S_C, did you check your post originators? Those two statements were made by completely different people :/

Anyways, my TvP build is just a little bit different from yours, blupp...

8.5depot (wall)
10rax (wall)
12ref (4 SCVs on ref after done)
15depot (wall)
18fac
22fac

Pump tanks from 2 factories while getting vult upgrades until you get 8 tanks. If they went mass goon early on (which it seems a lot of Ps do), you should be able to push out to your natural and expand.

So you don't research siege until after both vult upgrades are done?
And you build no vults until those 8 tanks are out?

[MidnightGladius]

It depends, really. If they go fast range, then you go siege before vult upgrades. And if they have zeals, add in vults. The 8 tanks are just nice insurance for your expo, and they can kill off most early goon masses.

[blupp74]

It depends, really. If they go fast range, then you go siege before vult upgrades. And if they have zeals, add in vults. The 8 tanks are just nice insurance for your expo, and they can kill off most early goon masses.

How is the un-upgraded goon range compared to unsieged tank?
1v1 tank takes goon, i think, but if more on each side? Will tank still win?

[U-238]

Depends, (yet another one -.-) goons are cheaper than tanks which means P can mass them more. Tanks are more expensive so T can't mass as much as P. So the part that the tanks effectiveness depends on is if P holds off and goes more mass, hoping T doesn't go siege, ro take a straight shot in at the tanks and ff. ofc if he scouts worth anything and sees fast/mass tank he'll just go for straight zealot mass with whatever goons he has backing it and it's pretty much downhill from there.

[Siege_Commander]

S_C, did you check your post originators? Those two statements were made by completely different people :/

Anyways, my TvP build is just a little bit different from yours, blupp...

8.5depot (wall)
10rax (wall)
12ref (4 SCVs on ref after done)
15depot (wall)
18fac
22fac

Pump tanks from 2 factories while getting vult upgrades until you get 8 tanks. If they went mass goon early on (which it seems a lot of Ps do), you should be able to push out to your natural and expand.

:concern: I made this topic And thanks

[blupp74]

Depends, (yet another one -.-) goons are cheaper than tanks which means P can mass them more. Tanks are more expensive so T can't mass as much as P. So the part that the tanks effectiveness depends on is if P holds off and goes more mass, hoping T doesn't go siege, ro take a straight shot in at the tanks and ff. ofc if he scouts worth anything and sees fast/mass tank he'll just go for straight zealot mass with whatever goons he has backing it and it's pretty much downhill from there.

Ok, so how effective are unsieged tanks compared to vultures, when it comes to zealots? I know vultures rock against zealots and suck vs goons, and that tanks rock against goons...but what about tank vs zeal?
As in, if I for some reason skipped early vultures, and have a few tanks, but no siege...and find a group of zealots instead of goons...will the tanks handle them as well?

[B.A.Baracus]

Yo middy, whats the earliest sign that someone is going metal vs zerg? Lately Ive been putting off scouting until I get z lings and I think thats hampering me.

[WickedImposter]

lol. i saw Middy do a BO against BAB. he went metal TvZ, and when BAB teched lurk/ling, middy went with quick 1 valk and mass tanks. it was very unorthadox, but it worked

[MidnightGladius]

I normally scout with my 9th drone, ZvT. And blupp, just bring in some SCVs to block the zeal's movement and focus fire while queueing up vults.

[blupp74]

I normally scout with my 9th drone, ZvT. And blupp, just bring in some SCVs to block the zeal's movement and focus fire while queueing up vults.

If that's an answer to my question, I assume it's an indirect "no", then. Tanks do not do as well against zealots. Since you suggest queuing up vults as the thing to do...

[Ahzz]

ummmm???? middy going metal and babs does lurk ling? lol ;d
Next time babby, start muta tech right after you spot metal, make +1 air attack upgrade too. Depending on the amount of tanks, your unit ratio of hydralisk:muta might change from 1:1 to even 3:1 etc--- if he does valks, make some scourges, and flank the valks with them. since valks take time to shoot missiles and it isn't instant hit like with corsairs, you should be able to handle it pretty well

[MidnightGladius]

Yep, that's what I told him to do, basically. He didn't even have a spire at the end of the game -_-

[MatGeo]

Midy likes to invent wacky stuff....the thing he used vs BAB...the CRAZY BO he used against me which surprisingly worked...coz i went lurk he fast teched to BCs and gg... :/

[B.A.Baracus]

ummmm???? middy going metal and babs does lurk ling? lol ;d
Next time babby, start muta tech right after you spot metal, make +1 air attack upgrade too. Depending on the amount of tanks, your unit ratio of hydralisk:muta might change from 1:1 to even 3:1 etc--- if he does valks, make some scourges, and flank the valks with them. since valks take time to shoot missiles and it isn't instant hit like with corsairs, you should be able to handle it pretty well
Thanks for the advice, Im saving that in my word document with stuff I need to remember.
Oh, and I didnt know t could even pull a heavy metal on z >,>

[lammas]

yes u can yet its anhoter thing if it makes any sense

[Siege_Commander]

Lammy, if you no the time diff, will you be on around 7:20am Uswest and pacific time? will any1 else be on around that time? I will:P

[WickedImposter]

7:20 am Us west? lol i might be able to get on commander

@Ahzz: ahzz were you there when middy pulled that off? i cant seem to remember if you were there or not.

[Ahzz]

nope, I'm just supposing stuff.

[MidnightGladius]

Yeah, I think he was, but he was AFK intermittently throughout the convo. And they're only crazy, because frankly, it's more challenging if I do it that way :P I can win against you guys with the normal strats as a given, really.

[Siege_Commander]

If Muta harrass is a normal strat, then i belive Middy:P

[Cpt.Chronic]

I can win against you guys with the normal strats as a given, really.
I'll take you up on that challenge. When can you get on? You still in China?

btw, I can only get on in the evenings.

[WickedImposter]

no he not in china anymore. as for that challenge, i would love to see middy v chronic. only if middy dosent use laptop again.

[MidnightGladius]

Chron, I directed that at the people posting. You would probably beat me in my present staste, but that's with lag, no mouse, and a laptop with crappy keys, and a heap of rust to add to it all.

[WickedImposter]

O_o. playing starcraft without a mouse would suck. so middy, your pretty much challenging everyone you know is worse than you? T_T

[MidnightGladius]

It wasn't a challenge. It was a statement of my belief.

[WickedImposter]

I can win against you guys with the normal strats as a given, really.

i c.

*note to self* must get better, beat middy, and make him eat his words.

[Siege_Commander]

*Notes to self must reach b wbs ladder rank*

[WickedImposter]

*note to self must stop spamming and stop commander from reaching his goal by showing the *ahem* FIVE replays*

oh and im ranked 5 too. so you would lose a lot of points/

[Siege_Commander]

W/e. I dont really get it, but if im c, im c, if im d, then im d. Not too hard to figure that out:P

[WickedImposter]

wow i cant even find the last on topic question that i could reply to. anyways, whats usually the best raid unit for t? because ive seen tanks, vultures, and gols used in all 3 matchups.

[SHOOBANG]

poll for this thread who thinks 100 zerglings can take out 100 marines answer

A. yes

B. no

[blupp74]

poll for this thread who thinks 100 zerglings can take out 100 marines answer

A. yes

B. no

100 marines pure? no medics?
what about upgrades? range? stim? lings upgraded?

100 "default" lings vs 100 "default" marines without medics, i say marines.
if upgrades are equal (armor/attack), i say marines
if marines have stim and range upgrades, I say marines, for sure 100% no doubt whatsoever at all ever
if marines are accompanied by medics, I say marines without any doubt in the entire universe for all time back and forth in any and all dimensions of existance and non-existance.

EDIT: Oh, crap...i forgot speed and attack speed upgrades for lings....ah, what the heck...marines win anyway.

[IrishDutchman]

the only remote chance for the lings would be if they were 3/3 crax against completely non-upgraded marines, and they Zerg flanked the terran perfectly. Even so, I wouldn't be too sure.

[Siege_Commander]

Stop spamming ShooBang. Its my topic, not yours, and your reply has nothing to do with what i asked.

[WickedImposter]

lol commander. he muscling in to your terretory. anyways, he does ask a good question. rines without a doubt though. if all ups included, then i would say rines. say we added in 50 meds for terran 50 hydras for zerg. it might be closer, but id still go with rines.

[Siege_Commander]

*siege tanks away shoobang*

[ShadeZ]

the only remote chance for the lings would be if they were 3/3 crax against completely non-upgraded marines, and they Zerg flanked the terran perfectly. Even so, I wouldn't be too sure.
In that case the zerg definately win since the marines take twice as long to kill lings and the lings get there way before the lings kill more then 5-10 of them ^^
Plus the lings do 8 dmg each crack upged hit :D

And anyway the lings should be 200 vs 100 cuz that's price ratio ^^

[Siege_Commander]

Way not fair. >.< 200 crax v 100 rines? *All hail 200/200 crax*

[WickedImposter]

*siege tanks away shoobang*

:worship: all hail commander. master of virtually killing ppl. anyways, id still go with rines. someone make a map like this i would like to see result. but theres always variables, like lings coming through chokes, ramps, etc. and whether or not the rines use stim. id still go with rines though. as the lings get closer, more rines are firing at them.

[Siege_Commander]

yeah. I think if you place it right, 1 rine can block jungle ramp and if you had the rest behind, lings will dieXD

[WickedImposter]

if it was a line of rines against a line of lings, lings win. but if its in a block, rines stand a very good chance. if theres a ramp or choke, lings are screwed lol.

[Siege_Commander]

yeah. Especially when ai kicks in>.<

[WickedImposter]

ya. but you see, once the lings get to rines, riens start dying, because first row lings starts foddering as second line gets closer.

[Siege_Commander]

no, lings start runnin away if they cant get through:P

[WickedImposter]

no i meant in flat ground.

[Siege_Commander]

Oh. then rines should be spaced in somewhat like a v i think or either < or > or ^ or v. depends on what direction.

[WickedImposter]

hm. think that the most effective formation would be that they are clumped together. i think so. but definately not a straightline. as for your V shape, i dont think that would work because once first row starts dying, another rine is right there for the kill.

[Siege_Commander]

well then a good spaced v or ^ or just like an army, as in like 5 rows of 10 or whatever, so as the first row gets hit, second and possibly 3rd backs them up.

[WickedImposter]

ya. but a good flank and your messed. ANYWAYS next theory.

500 zlings against 100 firebats. both of them are fully upgraded O_o

[MatGeo]

ya. but a good flank and your messed. ANYWAYS next theory.

500 zlings against 100 firebats. both of them are fully upgraded O_o

Well..... That's tough if the lings are grouped together bats probably own... if not... i'm not sure...

[WickedImposter]

ill go with bats. fully uped its 2 hit kill O_o

[Ahzz]

absolute idiotic shit as it will never happen and another thing is 400 lings is max even if theres no workers

[Cpt.Chronic]

I mean seriously...how long can u ppl talk about the same stupid shit over and over. Fucking pointless.

[WickedImposter]

ok ok ok get the point.

anyways could someone give me a BO for gundam rush? trying it out, faield badly today but i want to use it so could someone give me a bo and/or a rep?

[Ahzz]

make one quite fast factory, keep on making marines. when you get first fax make machine shop and 1 siege tank and mine upgrade. set rally point to opponent base and keep sending vultures, attack too. you should have 6-8 marines or so, 1 tank and more vultures coming all the time. after the rush its pretty free what you do, you could exp, or make another fax and expo a bit later. whatever.

[Monty]

Do you recommend bringing SCVs? I played a game before where my opponent gundam rushed and built a bunker, with a few scvs repairing/milling around, and it seemed pretty effective. Is it worthwhile to do that? Or is it too risky?

[lammas]

giga u mix fake gundam and gundam ;p

fake gundam goes:
12 barracks
12 gas
15suply
16fac
marines all the time
add on for fac
tank mine up
vultu

attack with 6marines 1tank and an scv. send first vultu to his main. make 2 more vultus and meanwhile build exp into your natural. mines everywhere. Anyways if u read game badly this build can often end up into horrible assrape but youll learn how it works after a few dozen times.

then the gundam build that u asked:

12rax (or 11)
12gas
15 suply
16 fac 2marines
~20 fac
marine
addon
tank mines
make one tank and vulture then attack with 3scv 3 marine 1tank 1-2vultu. keep pumping vultures and put rally point to his base. make bunker. if you have been able to push to his ramp make bunker there. if not make it there where you have bee able to push him. then upgrade siege keep sending tanks and vultures. add 3th fac or ebay depending on your opponents build. if your opponent has allready expanded and havent canceled it his gg. if he makes dt rush with gates in his main just mine everywhere and expand then make ebay and aca. if he makes dt drop say gg. if he makes reaver drop try to push into his main while defending that drop.

[WickedImposter]

ok thanks lammy. 20 fac though? so after 20 fac you should atk, or before that?and should gundam be used all the time or just when he goes 1 gate? because i like the feel of gundam i just wantto practice it.

[Ahzz]

you're either really stupid or didn't bother reading it close enough before making a post. Obviously you even cant have "before 20 fax attack" because, well think about it, 6 marines, one tank, 1 vult or something. If you perform it well, it should work against 2 gate goons too, but not so well. just don't waste units in that case

[MajorPain]

I have a T question. How does one counter a late game 3/3 ultra/crax attack? I usually get owned by this because, well, I suck! Would irradiating the ultras do any good (since it would kill any surrounding lings)? Or should I not spend money on vessels and just mass tanks instead? Perhaps a combination of the two? :smirk:

[blupp74]

I have a T question. How does one counter a late game 3/3 ultra/crax attack? I usually get owned by this because, well, I suck! Would irradiating the ultras do any good (since it would kill any surrounding lings)? Or should I not spend money on vessels and just mass tanks instead? Perhaps a combination of the two? :smirk:

Something like that, yes. A bunch of tanks, a shitload of M&M, and a handfull of science vessels with irradiate. But if he shows absolutely no signs of lurkers the tanks may become a hazards, since they'll splash your m&m.

Throw in a group of firebats while you're at it. Some micro ontop of that, and things should work well. Unless he outnumbers you (more than the T:Z ratio, that is), or is ahead in upgrades, or has better micro. Or all three, of course. Or just two of them.

[Cpt.Chronic]

I have a T question. How does one counter a late game 3/3 ultra/crax attack? I usually get owned by this because, well, I suck! Would irradiating the ultras do any good (since it would kill any surrounding lings)? Or should I not spend money on vessels and just mass tanks instead? Perhaps a combination of the two? :smirk:
A combination of the two is the best. Irradiate his ultras while you're in a position where he can't attack you, then move out to attack, but keep your units together. Try to use terrain to your advantage so that you don't just get surrounded. Set tanks behind walls. Or if you see he is about to attack (scan for his army location) seige all your tanks and send your m&m out in front to start the attack and as his force closes in retreat back closer to your tanks which will allow your tanks to get free hits on the already weakened (from irradiate) ultras. 3/3 upgrades for marines is a must.

[U-238]

Well as a Z player the one thing that I fear mostly is science vessels. M&M and Tanks are no real match for an ultra/ling Z. Especially with dark swarm as most Ultra/ling ZvT armies should have. My advice would be to increase the vessel amount and decrease the tank amount and rack up the M&Ms. However you need to watch what you irradiate. Irradiating ultras is cool and all but you need to remember that it takes 2 irradiate to kill an ultralisk and they probably won't get killed before they reach your M&M line. And that's when it can backfire on you because you'll end up hurting your own troops from the splash from the irradiate. I'd suggest, instead of hitting ultras, to hit a single ling. Yes it doesn't last long but you're more likely to kill both the ling and surrounding lings before they reach you.

[Cpt.Chronic]

Ehhh, don't listen to U-238, he's a traitor to the Terran race and is trying to sabotage you! Irradiating ultras is way better than irradiating lings. If he has a bunch of lings just sitting there, irradiate your own vessels and fly them over his lings.

[WickedImposter]

chronics right. dont listen to skiddy here. irradiating ultra would work, cause it would probably splash on other ultras and lings. and you can also just irradiate vessals which would work too.

@ahzz and lammy: thanks for gundam BO ill try it out.

[U-238]

Well irradiating vessels would be a better way than lings but look at it this way... It's much harder for a Z player to move a single ling away from a group than it is an ultra. It sounds like BS yes but you have to believe its effectiveness and at least try it before you ridicule it.

[WickedImposter]

ya but on vessals you get the full amount of dmg skiddy. against a ling you only get 35 damages worth.

[U-238]

I seriously advise you to see an eyedoctor as soon as you can.

Well irradiating vessels would be a better way than lings

[WickedImposter]

:o ya im actually getting glasses soon. but then you sorta argued it and my arguing complex kicked in :P anyways, what would be the counter to a zerg going hydra/lurk with some mutas. i had 2 tanks and some mm stationed around his base, with sv support and valks. but he mutaed my base while attacking my push. was there something i could have done there or was that just all micro that was at fault?

[U-238]

It wasn't the fact that you were trying to argue you point. That I can respect but you went and blatantly stated something I had just said. Reading class is supposed to help with that. Unfortunetly most kids these days don't even pay attention to it.

Counter to hydra/lurk is tanks. You'll want oh say around 6-8 at least, 12-18 at most, and just sprinkle in your M&M around that. The mutas can be countered by placing turrets around your mineral areas. If they come in with a larger number like 12 then you'll want to move some of your force back to help the turrets because 4 turrets isn't going to frighten 12 mutas away. If the mutas come late then you should have some vessels ready and just irradiate them. They'll either have to keep together to avoid fire or be split apart to avoid irradiate. Either way they'll go down.

[WickedImposter]

kk. thanks. and i know that lurk/ling is countered by mm and tank support. but im mainly having troubles against hydra/lurk. thanks skiddy and ill try to read more carefully ><.

[PuLsE]

hi guys im new to this message board in particular so pls be gentle

i just wana ask something bout the vultures
ive trying to observe the styles of play by [ReD]NaDa and slayers.'boxer' in their replays and i observed something special about their vultures.
i noticed that when their vultures are able to plant mines in a very useful way
pls bear with me and try to imagine the scenario of what i saw

think of, say around 8 vultures, equally dispersed around your monitor (NOT AROUND THE MAP). say you select them then press the 'I' hotkey of mines right then you click on a particular part of the ground. So they will all plant their mines right.. but the thing is those who arent close to that area will leave their spot to plant a mine as close as they can i that area i selected.
what i observed from those two programmers is that, still imagining the same scenario, all the vultures are able to plant mines simultaneously without moving to another location

basically each one of the vultures are able to plant mines at the same time without leaving their own spot

would you guys know how to execute this action?
do you guys know any technique in doing this?
thanks it would really help

[WickedImposter]

first of all, welcome to WB.

anyways, its because they have extremely good micro. the click so fast they use the cloning technique, where you select all of them, press i in one spot, quickly deselect 1 of the vultures, and repeat. they jsut manage to do this extremely fast.

[Ahzz]

what are you talking about? it's as simple as select all vultures and make them lay mines, then make them lay again at the same position. I dunno what crap wickedimposter is feeding you, but don't mind it.

[GroG]

Ahzz: it could also be a similar situation as setting up your templar on the map, then selecting all and storming on the minimap, so they don't all storm one spot but storm in their formation, if that makes sense. I think that trick also works with mines..

Also, to the guy asking about M/M/F/tank vs ultra/ling, Pretty much stop tank production (save the tanks you do have, or else only produce out of one factory), and then add on as many rax as you can, and produce LARGE amounts of 3/3 M/M. At this point of the game, it's not so much about micro, more about macro and positioning. Use chokes, stimming and running back, reinforcing, and running away from dark-swarm are all things you need to do. But in the same sentence, you either need to be flying around with d-ships and shutting down expo, or doing some other form of harrassment to reduce his econ and make yours more prominent.

Bunkers are good, spam depots around a new expo/choke, and also to the discussion about irradiate : it's good vs. ultra, yeah, but if you irradiate ultras right before you engage him it won't really matter since he's just gonna run in and eat you alive anyways, you need to irradiate, wait a bit, then engage.

So yeah, vs ultra/cracks just macro M/M and use positioning and such. Irradiate where you can, but don't rely on it to win a battle for you, use it so you can "go mobile" if that makes sense.

[WickedImposter]

O_O. sry ahzz but i though thats what they do. because normally if i try to select, say 20 vults and do that they will try to clutter around the same spot. thanks for clearing that up ahzz. didnt realize that it was so ez.