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RedRagToAnOrc
08-08-2006, 9:37 AM
How To Mass Bats
By RedRagToAnOrc

i - Introduction
ii - Build Order and Basic Hero Choices
iii - Strategy
iv - Dealing with Flamers
v - Epilogue

Part i - Introduction
Ah, mass bats. Who hasn't played against it. It's the most guilty pleasure in Warcraft, you simply tower up your base, sit back and mass the stupid things, right? I'm afraid that's where you're wrong, there is actually an art to massing Bats, whether you like it or not.

I've recently created a smurf which I will continue to play on until I get bored of it, called LUMBERJACKIST (in honour of Downwhere's third audio commentary on WCR, which you need to listen to). I started massing Bats in 4s RT and solo, and eventualy AT once I find someone to abuse stuff like this with.

Anyway, there are a few things you need to know about massing Bats before you try it. Firstly, if you're not a patient person who can't wait 5 minutes before trying an all-or-nothing attack on the enemy base, do not do this strategy. You are required to either harrass or creep early on then sit back and wait until the time is right.

Secondly, massing Bats is easier against better players, obviously within reason. I often find myself almost struggling against sub-50% and yet thrashing high-30s players. Why is this? Well, if you've noticed, worse players are more likely to do the following;

1. Camp their base so you can't attack it. This allows you to expand as much as you want, but as you will only have one hero this is slightly harder.
2. Mass towers. Troublesome, but can be beaten.
3. Not bother attacking your base. You want your opponent to attack your base and keep pressure up.

So basically, you can get wins against much better players than yourself doing this - as you can by going, say, DR/Panda or mass Hunts.

Finally, you will be letting yourself in for a very long series of games if you choose to do this. I've had hour-plus games doing this, simply attempting to contain expansions, harrassing with my Blademaster and using "tactical strikes" (the funzzor name for Bat attacks that Wisp came up with). Don't expect to finish games quickly, towering your base often leads to uneventful and boring wins. However, it can be absolutely hilarious.

Anyway, I present to you the strategy and ideals that make this sort of guilty abuse possible.

ii - Build Order and Basic Hero Choices
There are a number of schools of thought as to what heroes to use against what races and what build orders to use. I personally stick with mostly the same hero and build order everytime, with a few slight variations. Your basic "Two Tower Tech" build order is as follows;

All peons to gold, 1st back builds War Mill, queue two peons at Main.

First peon out of main builds burrow, queue to gold.

Second peon out of main builds Altar, queue to wood.

Start pumping Peons after this until you have 8 on wood.

When War Mill finishes, build your first tower, queue Peon to the spot where you will build your next tower.

When Altar finishes, build Voodoo Lounge and train a Blademaster, rallying him to your shop.

When first tower finishes, build second tower.

Buy two Healing Salves, two Clarity Potions and a Speed Scroll from the shop.

Tech at 315 gold/190 wood.

This is your basic build order and the timing works out near-perfectly. Remember to queue only two Peons at the start, not 3, otherwise you will not have enough gold with which to build your Altar immediately. Your first tower should finish just as your hero is halfway/two-thirds finished, and against an Altar-first build, when your opponent's hero is finished. This allows you to have basic base defenses in time for a harrass, should they choose to use one.

Next, hero choices against various matchups. The general rule is if unsure (or playing Random) use a Blademaster, however Beastmaster is another good choice. The Beastmaster's summons can be easily spammed using Clarity Potions from the Voodoo Lounge and allow for extra defenses against early game pressure or a mid game push (Hawk harrasses beat Siege weapons into the ground).

If you choose Blademaster in RT, then attempt to harrass the enemy in this order: Night-Elf first (easiest to harrass) then Human, Orc and finally Undead. This is why Beastmaster is a relatively good choice against Undead and Orc in solo as long as you remember to get Reinforced Defenses at Tier 3 to counter mass Destroyer hits on your towers. I also have been known to use Beastmaster against Night-Elf, but it's really whatever you feel like. Remember, if in doubt, go Blademaster.

iii - Strategy
Now we get to the meaty part of the guide, with any luck, the strategy section. You may think that massing Bats and suiciding mains is what you should do, but there is much to be considered in a mass Bats strategy.

First of all, you have to get the base setup correct. There is an art to building a towered up base and you should do the following;

a) Build the War Mill next to the trees in the back lines of your base.

b) Build a Burrow beneath (or above) your main so that there are two squares of space in front between the main and your Altar, which you should build directly beneath (or above) the Burrow.

c) Build a tower in the gap between main and Altar, and a Voodoo Lounge as close as possible to the tower/Altar. Wall in the side on which your wood peasants are working with additional buildings and towers.

d) When to scout is a little bit of a grey area but you can do it after your Altar finishes or your first tower finishes. I prefer to do it after my Altar is done.

Here's a basic base build early on;

http://img454.imageshack.us/img454/2926/batsfig2up8.th.png (http://img454.imageshack.us/my.php?image=batsfig2up8.png)

The shop will go to the left of the first tower and be used later as shelter for another couple of towers. The second tower will go directly to the right of the first burrow.

Next, let's assume you chose Blademaster and head off to harrass the enemy base. You should get a good look at their base setup and identify and weaknesses in the setup. Are their buildings far away from base defenses? Are their towers (if they have any) spaced out? Identifying key weaknesses and exploiting them is a useful skill to have.

http://img487.imageshack.us/img487/7387/batsfig1mq8.th.png (http://img487.imageshack.us/my.php?image=batsfig1mq8.png)

Look at this Undead player's base, and think about the weaknesses.

Did you say that his main buildings (Altar/Barracks/Shop) are too far away from his Ziggurats and that his mine can be attacked from the other side that the Nerubian Tower is on? You'd be right. Always evaluate a base as soon as you get a glimpse of it so you can choose where to strike for maximum efficiency.

Now, once you've finished harrassing their base or creep/itemstealing, you should aim to delay their construction of any towers and Tier 2 buildings for as long as possible. If a Human has peasants constructing Tier 2 Buildings, you kill the peasants and scram. Focus down low HP buildings in progress. Remember that you can use Wind Walk for extra damage against units (not buildings) and not just to get away. However, you should always leave 75 mana left for a getaway Wind Walk.

While this is happening, you should have constructed additional towers and burrows during your tech and should now be putting up Beastiaries (as far away from the front of your base as possible) and tech to Tier 3 as soon as possible for Liquid Fire.

A number of things could be happening at this point. Your opponent could either be;

a) Creeping the entire map and expanding like crazy, in which case you follow him with your Blademaster and delay expansions for as long as possible, as well as creep/itemstealing to your heart's content. This is what you don't want him to be doing.

b) Camping his base waiting for your Blademaster to come back. Obviously, this is a low level thing and you should be relatively happy to mass more Bats.

c) Pressuring your base. This is fantastic if your opponent starts doing this. Hotkey your Blademaster to 1 and repeatedly buy Clarities/Salves/Potions from your shop (and remember to get an Orb at Tier 3). Hotkey any Bats you're building to 2 and only use them when your opponent's army comes within range of the towers. Hotkey 4 or 5 wood Peons to Group 3 and use them to repair towers/buildings should your opponent siege you.

While these things are happening, you should be getting a full group of Bats plus Liquid Fire. Now go and attack their base. Look for obvious weaknesses in their base setup and exploit them. Your opponent will now do one of the following things;

a) Be an idiot (unless he's Night-Elf, who have no natural base defenses) and TP back, at which point you run away and he wastes 350 gold.

b) Run back to his base (also rather idiotic) at which point you run away when you see him coming.

c) Continue to pressure you and stick up as many base defenses as possible, while upgrading towers/putting peons in burrows/etc. Pressuring is fine, but base defenses are another thing. They can be overcome as I will explain later, but they are an absolute nuisance and en masse can seriously detract from your bat-harrassing abilities.

So you've got to the point where you start mass harrassing/attacking with bats. Your opponent could have 1 tower up, he could have 10, but there are rules you need to follow to bypass the base defenses.

Firstly, if you're playing in RT, there is an order in which you attack the bases - this goes Night-Elf (easiest to attack) then Human, Undead and finally Orc (hardest). You then make sure you have Liquid Fire on your Bats and move them in to attack. Make a judgement of how many towers are in his base. If he has 1 tower for every 2 bats, or less towers than that, you're fine. If he has more than 1 tower for every 2 bats you get out of there, the reason being that you need to put one Bat on every tower. Liquid Fire reduces tower attack speed by a whopping 80% and buys you infinite amounts of time to take down buildings with the rest of your bats. Select the control group of bats and simply select a different one to take each tower, then remove them from the control group and tell the rest to focus down whatever you want. This works absolute wonders and almost always forces the opponent to run or TP back, because their towers are next to useless.

After the first attack, you simply scout with your Blademaster (and take down any expansions as soon as possible) then keep on taking down your opponents buildings, mines, mains, anything, forcing him to run back and leave you to do whatever you want. Remember later on that 5 peons and a Tiny Great Hall can be used to set up a very quick expansion (5 towers and a speed-built main).

If you choose Beastmaster first then you want to creep instead of harrassing, get Level 3 and then go Level 2 Quilbeast against no siege and Level 2 Hawk against siege units, making sure to continually scout for expansions with your Hawk and spam summons when you're back in your base defending - they can almost be used as throwaway units to kill that pesky low-HP Grunt or similar.

iv - Dealing with Flamers
Flamers are funny. No, really. They get annoyed when you mass bats and towers, and call you an idiot and say you have no life, and stuff like that. There are two simple ways to deal with flamers. If you hate them and detest what they're saying then squelch them and get on with the game. However, if like me, you have acid wit and wish to do so, continue to wind them up. I find this works much better because they end up getting really annoyed, typing more than they should and it detracts from their play in general. Remember always to twist their words, point out flaws in their logic as much as possible and alert them to grammatical errors.

v - Epilogue
So, I hope you enjoyed this and learnt a thing or two and perhaps even try the strategy out someday. LUMBERJACKIST is currently 7-1 (6-1 4s RT, 1-0 solo) and having extreme amounts of fun annoying the living daylights out of his opponents. I shall attempt to get some replays up in the near future.

Voila!

ice
08-08-2006, 9:55 AM
hmm mass bats..o yeah..i meat it in a 4v4 uy game...but the guy that did this wasn't that pro and attack early in game with 5-6 bats..i had like 10 rifle mans and 3 priests in base...i killed all the bats and after that the guy was deffenceless...so he got kicked in the ass...


i've printed the guid so i can read it on my way home...anyways good job RR

cole
08-08-2006, 10:09 AM
I never beaten what i would consider a "good" player with mass bats O.o. It works vs average players sometimes though.

Yoda
08-08-2006, 10:31 AM
iv - Dealing with Flamers
Flamers are funny. No, really. They get annoyed when you mass bats and towers, and call you an idiot and say you have no life, and stuff like that. There are two simple ways to deal with flamers. If you hate them and detest what they're saying then squelch them and get on with the game. However, if like me, you have acid wit and wish to do so, continue to wind them up. I find this works much better because they end up getting really annoyed, typing more than they should and it detracts from their play in general. Remember always to twist their words, point out flaws in their logic as much as possible and alert them to grammatical errors.


RR, it may be "fun" to mass towers + bats in your opinion, but it is tedious to be against. Anything involving "mass towers" is tedious to be against. It is a dishonourable tactic. Surely you are above things like that? Well, considering you smurf as well.... Tactics like this (similiar to imbeciles who mass towers + tanks) make Warcraft 3 games tiresome. I hope you stop doing this soon.... and that I never encounter you in a ladder game. It's much more fun to play properly.

RedRagToAnOrc
08-08-2006, 10:52 AM
RR, it may be "fun" to mass towers + bats in your opinion, but it is tedious to be against. Anything involving "mass towers" is tedious to be against. It is a dishonourable tactic. Surely you are above things like that? Well, considering you smurf as well.... Tactics like this (similiar to imbeciles who mass towers + tanks) make Warcraft 3 games tiresome. I hope you stop doing this soon.... and that I never encounter you in a ladder game. It's much more fun to play properly.

I used to think like this as well, however I soon came round to the thinking that although this drags games out and makes it extremely boring, all people are entitled to use the strategies they want to, and may be part of the reason why I've stopped complaining about such things in comparison to the threads I used to create about "How do I beat this?".

What is proper in Warcraft anymore? What is an honourable tactic? If you mass Talons, is that a dishonourable tactic because Night-Elf players do it much of the time and it's boring to play against? Is massing Huntresses dishonourable because it's extremely tedious to play against? If it is, then so is massing, feeding, towering of any kind (which means that Human professionals who mass towers versus Undead are being "dishonourable") and using cookie cutter strategies (because I've played against cookie cutter strategies so many times it becomes 'refreshing' when I see something different).

At a higher level in Warcraft, nothing is honourable anymore. It's a dog-eat-dog world up there. Note that there was a recent game where (I believe it was Grubby) massed towers in his base and went for bats. I can dig the replay out if you'd like to see it.

Prozerran
08-08-2006, 11:26 PM
RR, suppose I'm a decent player. I scout your tower massing and determine you're massing bats. I'm playing human, I immediately research defend, pump out 5-6 Foots, rush you to take out your burrows, and replace fallen footmen with riflemen as I build a second barracks.

It seems to me the best way to beat this is to go with the old RoC Rifle/Priest/Mortar strat of old without fast expanding. Mortars counter the towers, Priests (if you even decide to use them) heal the Rifles and draw Bat fire while Rifles pick them out of the sky. Retrain AM to Blizzard, and push the Orc base with Rifles/Mortars. Is this possible? I've been massed against once, and I didn't know then what I know now about this strategy as it was fairly new at the time.

Similarly, for NE, MG's and Dryads seem like a distinct counter to Mass Bats. Do these strategies hold any merit if we're talking about scouting the strategy early enough?

What about UD and Orc? Don't just give me the strategy. I could get that out of a replay. It's definitely more useful if you're going to talk about how to implement this cheese if you know how it's countered. Just a thought. I feel a little let down after reading your guide, and not because I disagree with what you've posted. It's lacking. Fix it. Now. Now I say!! :)

wa123
08-09-2006, 12:34 AM
As a NE player, I simply leave 3-4 arc in base and that is enough to take down if not push back the full force of massive bat, while the rest of my army with hero go take down the oppo on the other side with ease.

Unless massive bat is coming with the hero, and thats is a big headach for me, but mostly that is not common.

I think Orc is better go ground, the sky are mine.

RedRagToAnOrc
08-09-2006, 3:20 AM
RR, suppose I'm a decent player. I scout your tower massing and determine you're massing bats. I'm playing human, I immediately research defend, pump out 5-6 Foots, rush you to take out your burrows, and replace fallen footmen with riflemen as I build a second barracks.

It seems to me the best way to beat this is to go with the old RoC Rifle/Priest/Mortar strat of old without fast expanding. Mortars counter the towers, Priests (if you even decide to use them) heal the Rifles and draw Bat fire while Rifles pick them out of the sky. Retrain AM to Blizzard, and push the Orc base with Rifles/Mortars. Is this possible? I've been massed against once, and I didn't know then what I know now about this strategy as it was fairly new at the time.

Similarly, for NE, MG's and Dryads seem like a distinct counter to Mass Bats. Do these strategies hold any merit if we're talking about scouting the strategy early enough?

What about UD and Orc? Don't just give me the strategy. I could get that out of a replay. It's definitely more useful if you're going to talk about how to implement this cheese if you know how it's countered. Just a thought. I feel a little let down after reading your guide, and not because I disagree with what you've posted. It's lacking. Fix it. Now. Now I say!! :)

Gaaah! Let me explain why mass Bats beats the strategy you posted. Should the Hu immediately rush you, he cannot realistically tower you because Orc towers have a longer range than Human ones. If he chooses not to, you focus down Footmen with your two Towers, using 4 or 5 Peons to repair them, and picking off weak Footmen with Wind Walk and peons. Do not underestimate the offensive use of Peons.

Finally, Rifles do not kill Bats if you don't let the Rifles get near them. That's the whole point, you never fight his army with Bats, only Blademaster and towers.

Yoda
08-09-2006, 5:22 AM
I used to think like this as well, however I soon came round to the thinking that although this drags games out and makes it extremely boring, all people are entitled to use the strategies they want to, and may be part of the reason why I've stopped complaining about such things in comparison to the threads I used to create about "How do I beat this?".

What is proper in Warcraft anymore? What is an honourable tactic? If you mass Talons, is that a dishonourable tactic because Night-Elf players do it much of the time and it's boring to play against? Is massing Huntresses dishonourable because it's extremely tedious to play against? If it is, then so is massing, feeding, towering of any kind (which means that Human professionals who mass towers versus Undead are being "dishonourable") and using cookie cutter strategies (because I've played against cookie cutter strategies so many times it becomes 'refreshing' when I see something different).

At a higher level in Warcraft, nothing is honourable anymore. It's a dog-eat-dog world up there. Note that there was a recent game where (I believe it was Grubby) massed towers in his base and went for bats. I can dig the replay out if you'd like to see it.

Ok, yes there are quite a few dishonourable strats. I have actually watched that game between Grubby and Satiini. I'm glad Grubby lost....

RedRagToAnOrc
08-09-2006, 6:22 AM
Ok, yes there are quite a few dishonourable strats. I have actually watched that game between Grubby and Satiini. I'm glad Grubby lost....

Not only are there quite a few, you simply cannot deny that if you lost, you clearly did something wrong, because if you play a perfect game then you win, full stop. You might feel like there's something against you and you didn't put a foot wrong, but you did.

Take the DK/Lich/Panda Mass Ghouls I just lost to as Human. That's a tedious strategy to play against, and therefore is "dishonourable", yet I still lost to it because the other guy played better. I had Tier 2 units, he microed better, kept me on my toes, took down buildings where he could, and nuked heroes when it was appropriate. I also did not put enough towers up in my base.

So because he abused, is it not my fault I lost? Of course it's my fault. These "dishonourable" strategies can be beaten and are beaten on a regular basis, and if you lose to one then it isn't because you were unfairly done by, it's because you played worse than the other guy.

Dayoh
08-09-2006, 7:31 AM
hehe i love these strats back in the days of RoC i used to love going mass seige tanks, hmmmm i wonder if u can still do it in TFT...

cole
08-09-2006, 8:30 AM
Not only are there quite a few, you simply cannot deny that if you lost, you clearly did something wrong, because if you play a perfect game then you win, full stop. You might feel like there's something against you and you didn't put a foot wrong, but you did.

Take the DK/Lich/Panda Mass Ghouls I just lost to as Human. That's a tedious strategy to play against, and therefore is "dishonourable", yet I still lost to it because the other guy played better. I had Tier 2 units, he microed better, kept me on my toes, took down buildings where he could, and nuked heroes when it was appropriate. I also did not put enough towers up in my base.

So because he abused, is it not my fault I lost? Of course it's my fault. These "dishonourable" strategies can be beaten and are beaten on a regular basis, and if you lose to one then it isn't because you were unfairly done by, it's because you played worse than the other guy.


no, just no. If a NE goes mass dotts and summons and beats my 4-5 unit mass with just one unit then i hardly think i was outplayed. Same goes for FL tower rush..

Yoda
08-09-2006, 10:28 AM
hehe i love these strats back in the days of RoC i used to love going mass seige tanks, hmmmm i wonder if u can still do it in TFT...

Yes you can. Or at least against night elf and undead, who do not have (realistic) counters to it.

So because he abused, is it not my fault I lost? Of course it's my fault. These "dishonourable" strategies can be beaten and are beaten on a regular basis, and if you lose to one then it isn't because you were unfairly done by, it's because you played worse than the other guy.

As Cole said, this is barely ever true. How much skill does necrowagon need? None! Except for silencing the wisps.... And tower rushes/turtling with towers etc.

It seems to be a rule that no Night elf players have skill, but I am still beaten by them. DH harass is sooo annoying, and bear/dyrad comes so quickly...

cole
08-09-2006, 12:01 PM
Its skill that NE can use a 150 staff to completely save a hero or a 255 gold unit. Makes so much sense. Orc has a item just like this... Oh wait they dont.

mAnbimanimanimA
08-09-2006, 12:09 PM
Yeah, orc only has that 50 gold scroll which completely saves an unlimited amount of units, available from tier 1. :)

cole
08-09-2006, 2:25 PM
Yeah, orc only has that 50 gold scroll which completely saves an unlimited amount of units, available from tier 1. :)


To bad things like coil or stun can stop speed scroll from saving units. I didnt know speed scroll immediantly sent units back to their hall btw.

RedRagToAnOrc
08-09-2006, 2:44 PM
The whole point is that if you play a perfect game then you can't lose. FL Tower Rush gets beaten by the following;

a) Superior scouting and building a Mill asap.
b) Hidden Rax and Shop to pump Grunts/buy Salves/Clarities.
c) Micro.

Do all these three things and you'll beat it. Why do you think professionals never use FL Tower Rush? It's because it can be beaten.

Also, check out the Grubby vs suhO Game 3 Replay on WCR posted recently. suhO has Mercs, Archers, Talons and three Heroes (plus towers being built) vs Grubby's Blademaster/TC, Grunts and Peons, and a couple of Raiders. Who wins? Yes, that's right, Grubby does.

Try reading T-Rider's article on imbalances over at WCR and follow the tips he sets out.

cole
08-09-2006, 3:45 PM
you dont get it.. And even with scouting and getting early mill, its still a really hard to strat to beat. The point is some strats take almost no skill to use but to counter them you have completely outplay them by 200% which is stupid.

Prozerran
08-09-2006, 10:10 PM
RR: What do you suggest Human do against this strategy other than go Burrow hunting with Defended Foots and try to push the Orc at Tier 2 with Morts and Rifles/Priests? I'd like to see you discuss the responses to this strat. Like I already said, I'm disappointed and I want my money back for wasting my time reading about it.

Cole: Quit bitching and try being constructive. Really man, all you seem to do is gripe about this shit that you really have no control over. For every abusive thing about NE staff and DH, there are probably at least a dozen reasons people could bitch about why NE units NEED a staff because they're weak, slow, unarmored, or whathaveyou. It doesn't matter whether you think it's fair. It is what it is.

Monty
08-10-2006, 12:18 AM
I like massing towers and tanks against it, which can be fun. Although inevitably you end up with a couple of caster heroes trying to take on a 5+ orbed BM. Not fun.

How about gyroes instead of casters as per Prozerran's plan, with towers back at base? One gyro can be a bitch for the bats to deal with, he can either sacrifice his larger unit or tediously move the BM into position. Not to mention you negate any of his expansions, purely because it's impossible for you to miss them. Nor is it possible to miss the BM.

Though the simple solution of massing footmen and towers could be best. Be pretty whacked, though...

cole
08-10-2006, 4:24 PM
Cole: Quit bitching and try being constructive. Really man, all you seem to do is gripe about this shit that you really have no control over. For every abusive thing about NE staff and DH, there are probably at least a dozen reasons people could bitch about why NE units NEED a staff because they're weak, slow, unarmored, or whathaveyou. It doesn't matter whether you think it's fair. It is what it is.

Yes i can see how a powerful meele unit like the bear with a awesome healing spell can be considered "weak". I can also see how a hero that can advoid physical damage and has good movespeed has to have another with a staff to keep him alive...[/sarcasm]

Its not really bithcing, its just the facts.Theres no possible way you can say that ne staff isnt imbalance.

Ender
08-10-2006, 5:26 PM
Good guide; good discussion. Stickied.

RedRagToAnOrc
08-11-2006, 2:45 AM
Good guide; good discussion. Stickied.

Having a sticky in the Warcraft section on How to Mass Bats and the resulting discussions kind of gives you an idea of what we're like, huh.

Ender
08-11-2006, 11:45 PM
Meh. Make more guides for different units.

Monty
08-12-2006, 1:23 AM
Any guide recommending:

"...point out flaws in their logic as much as possible and alert them to grammatical errors"

should be stickied. Period.

RedRagToAnOrc
08-12-2006, 3:26 AM
Any guide recommending:

"...point out flaws in their logic as much as possible and alert them to grammatical errors"

should be stickied. Period.

Man, I really like this guy. Where did you come from? Did you just magically appear?

GenocideAlive
08-15-2006, 12:05 PM
Mass bats is OK, but any time someone towers up like this, Proz, you just fast expo and camp it until you've got it going. Generally I'll leave base, creep until the BM shows up and I'll dust-beat him into the red. He'll book it and I'll immediately use militia and run to the nearest expo spot. Creep it, start building towers + expo. Once towers are up and expo is going, I'll go back to base.

From there you build a Sanctum and a Workshop and go straight to tier 3 after getting MK second. Sorcs pop out and you go creeping. BM shows up, hit dust, bolt him and slow him. FF. If he manages to TP away, he won't show up again. Your main priority is to keep him from expanding at all costs--don't creep mines, just take the item and leave the rest of the creeps.

Get a few flying machines stuck in key locations and have one follow your army around. Place about 6 around your bases in HOLD POSITION and make sure they're adequately spaced. If he runs in and Unstable Concoctions your Flying Machines, BFD. They're L1 and half the cost/build time of his Batriders. If he ignores them and goes for anything else, their Flak Cannons will tear him apart.

Don't build tanks, he'll just build 4-5 raiders and ensnare them all and then waste them. Stick to towers, expos, and flying machines, he's got nothing he can do. Just watch him and make sure he doesn't switch over to something else, and you've got it in the bag.

RedRagToAnOrc
08-15-2006, 2:10 PM
Mass bats is OK, but any time someone towers up like this, Proz, you just fast expo and camp it until you've got it going. Generally I'll leave base, creep until the BM shows up and I'll dust-beat him into the red. He'll book it and I'll immediately use militia and run to the nearest expo spot. Creep it, start building towers + expo. Once towers are up and expo is going, I'll go back to base.

From there you build a Sanctum and a Workshop and go straight to tier 3 after getting MK second. Sorcs pop out and you go creeping. BM shows up, hit dust, bolt him and slow him. FF. If he manages to TP away, he won't show up again. Your main priority is to keep him from expanding at all costs--don't creep mines, just take the item and leave the rest of the creeps.

Get a few flying machines stuck in key locations and have one follow your army around. Place about 6 around your bases in HOLD POSITION and make sure they're adequately spaced. If he runs in and Unstable Concoctions your Flying Machines, BFD. They're L1 and half the cost/build time of his Batriders. If he ignores them and goes for anything else, their Flak Cannons will tear him apart.

Don't build tanks, he'll just build 4-5 raiders and ensnare them all and then waste them. Stick to towers, expos, and flying machines, he's got nothing he can do. Just watch him and make sure he doesn't switch over to something else, and you've got it in the bag.

Thanks for the anti-guide. :)

The whole Flying Machines thing was a good point but if BM waltzes in with Orb at Tier 3 those things die in like 4 hits - 3 or 2 with Wind Walk/Critical Strike.

Monty
08-15-2006, 11:43 PM
Key point's the last one. The real bitchy thing is when they don't mass bats, opting for something like mass raiders. Scouting is a must... an invisible footman does the trick, though. He'd have to be a bit paranoid to dust his own base on a map without a lab...

Another common problem is that people attempt to counter mass bats with a couple of aviaries. Fairly self explanatory, but it helps for people to know. Three armour upgrades plus the general expenses of it all is markedly inefficient.

Flying machines work wonders in that they're so quick, both to build and to move, and if the BM wants to attack them, let him. Granted, you'll want to take several with you if he's got an orb, so you have to ensure you don't let them bunch up.

GenocideAlive
08-17-2006, 12:32 PM
A BM attacking my gyros around my towers is more than welcome to come on by. I'll have 1-2 arcane and 2-3 guards, so he's going to lose about 200 mana for 2 gyros. Seems worth it to me, it'll take me <15s to replace them.

The main issue at all times will be a matter of removing his ability to expand to continue the tower gay. If he just sits in his damned base and won't leave, start mortaring / flamestriking trees so he loses his approach advantage. Get a zepplin and start plunking stuff down in the back of his base behind trees. Don't just try to push the front of his base and lose like half of these "pros" that have no imagination or ability to think on their feet.

Prozerran
08-17-2006, 10:18 PM
Makes very little sense that pro's are pro's when they can't think on their feet. Bringing down the towers and containing the opponent just gives you the freedom to expo and control the game. Who cares if you lose some units to the towers if you're keeping your macro in check?

Then again, you did say half these "pro's". I'm sure you're not talking about WE.IGE.Sky, 4k.Tod, or 4k.Insomnia, the top human players that define ingenuity and efficiency for the race. If they're not opting for positioning using the BM late in the game to burn down some trees, it's probably because losing that BM and other subsequent heroes because you neglected the Paladin makes WW/Critical Strike much more potent. I dunno, BM Flamestriking seems to pale in comparison to having Holy Light.

And as always, I'm loving MK first more and more. Fuck the AM, it's too slow for the kind of gameplay Human comes up against. MK/Pally all the way.

RedRagToAnOrc
08-18-2006, 4:03 AM
And as always, I'm loving MK first more and more. Fuck the AM, it's too slow for the kind of gameplay Human comes up against. MK/Pally all the way.

Yay, go Plato. You are slowly taking over the world.

GenocideAlive
08-18-2006, 1:04 PM
Makes very little sense that pro's are pro's when they can't think on their feet. Bringing down the towers and containing the opponent just gives you the freedom to expo and control the game. Who cares if you lose some units to the towers if you're keeping your macro in check?

Then again, you did say half these "pro's". I'm sure you're not talking about WE.IGE.Sky, 4k.Tod, or 4k.Insomnia, the top human players that define ingenuity and efficiency for the race. If they're not opting for positioning using the BM late in the game to burn down some trees, it's probably because losing that BM and other subsequent heroes because you neglected the Paladin makes WW/Critical Strike much more potent. I dunno, BM Flamestriking seems to pale in comparison to having Holy Light.
I was referring more to the people that play against the mass towers strat than I was the people who had popularized the strat. A lot of people in WC go after the basics--creep for high hero levels and items, get units and win game. NC.Dude's strategy is designed exactly to minimize the effects of this strategy: he steals creepkills, items, avoids inferior tier 1 units, and sets up a massive deathtrap of a base. Once the BM gets to higher levels (thx to solo hero exp boost), low level INT heroes made for creeping and AoE dmg become giant KILL ME targets.
And as always, I'm loving MK first more and more. Fuck the AM, it's too slow for the kind of gameplay Human comes up against. MK/Pally all the way.
I'm a big fan during the UD m/u, but during the Orc m/u there's just no reason. AM + BM + triple-sanctuary breaker/caster totally abuses Orc and there isn't shit they can do about it. FF shams w/breakers and pierce damage and let the summons and spells do the rest. Plus, it's always fun to Dispel a speedscroll when an Orc is being careless. ^^

GroG
09-06-2006, 11:42 AM
btw redrag your guide worked before when no one knew how to deal w/ this strategy, but now everyone, EVERYONE, goes barracks. you have to make a barracks at tier 1.5 while upgrading, for the simple fact of needing cata prior to a push before your harass starts. If you see more than 1 cata/mortar/meatwagon/glaive, you need more cata. When I hit L25 and starting doing this strat, I lost every game I played where I didn't make a barracks, yet every game I made a barracks I believe I won.

your cata production must be either = or > theirs. period.

h0bgawblin
11-03-2006, 7:59 PM
This strat is fun for 4v4 rt, but not much else. It sounds fun to mass bats. As far as laming goes, i agree with redrag. Complain all ya want about the laming, it still kicked your ass. Don't get me wrong, i hate facing laming. I just suck it up and play the next game because ussually, I win.

darkjedilarry
12-08-2006, 5:43 PM
You were right about the flames redrag, its pretty funny. I did my first one on a lvl 3 (as practice) and he got sooo pissed. He charged my base with mass wyvs (not knowing about how many towers i had) and got pwnt. This one will never get old.

mAnbimanimanimA
12-09-2006, 8:02 AM
This strat is fun for 4v4 rt, but not much else. It sounds fun to mass bats. As far as laming goes, i agree with redrag. Complain all ya want about the laming, it still kicked your ass. Don't get me wrong, i hate facing laming. I just suck it up and play the next game because ussually, I win.
There's always the option of quitting the damn game and searching for another, hopefully more fun-to-play one.

darkjedilarry
01-05-2007, 7:08 AM
Redrag, you REALLY REALLY REALLY need to make your next audio on one or two of games with this strat. It'd be really interesting and helps people visualize what you've written in your main post. I think your voice would go good with a game where flames fly :P . It's a fun strat to do when youre bored and have a lot of time on your hands. And I admire your knowledge (or my disknowledge) of orc and some specific concepts of this game. You've done one on the gruntapult, why not this?

RedRagToAnOrc
01-05-2007, 11:01 AM
Redrag, you REALLY REALLY REALLY need to make your next audio on one or two of games with this strat. It'd be really interesting and helps people visualize what you've written in your main post. I think your voice would go good with a game where flames fly :P . It's a fun strat to do when youre bored and have a lot of time on your hands. And I admire your knowledge (or my disknowledge) of orc and some specific concepts of this game. You've done one on the gruntapult, why not this?

I may potentially choose to do one off the record for those who wish to hear it at WarBoards, I don't think I'd post it over at WCR. Still, I'll keep it in mind. :)

Yoda
01-06-2007, 8:58 PM
There's always the option of quitting the damn game and searching for another, hopefully more fun-to-play one.

But then you have another unnecessary "loss" on your record. :shiftyr:

glupfyr2
01-08-2007, 6:23 AM
red hell and mass bats its the same shit for me

i just creeping and building my army and some f..king towers to destroy everything in my way

FredericJ
01-19-2007, 2:58 AM
Hi Red, I use mass bats all the time and I got pretty good at it, i've beaten player up to level 43 with it on Azeroth. It sure is hard as hell to find a mass bats partner for a fun 2v2 so if you're looking for a partner just write back and I'd love to AT with you.