Build orders

[Ktan]

Right. I've decided to persevere a bit. However, my problem is Macro. Big time, I just can't get my army built as fast as anyone else. I know the odd counter, with the right army I'm pretty sure I wouldn't suck so much. But I never get to that point :P

So, I'm thinking, which race has the simplest initial build order? I know that for Terrans that you either go 'rax or go metal, but that relies on knowing your enemy. Is it easier for me to go 'toss? (I was advised to avoid Zerg, but I could go for them) Are they more versatile in the early stages? See, if you build two 'rax and are facing Terrans or Protoss, it seems like you've ended up wasting that time/resources when you could have been going metal.

Then again, it may be due to a shortage of workers. I'll post some old reps when I get chance, but I warn you, they will mainly show me sucking.

Maybe my APM just sucks...

[IrishDutchman]

I'd say Zerg is fairly easy, because they're so versatile. The two most basic openings are 9 pool and 12 hatch. They both work well, and you can branch out to whatever you want from there. You can't really make a wrong opening with zerg if you stick with those two.

I'm not gonna write up a long BO, srry, I'm lazy.

[Ktan]

Yeah, can I just ask about the whole 'pool' thing. Is that referring to Spawning Pools or something? I've never heard the term 'pool' before, you'll have to forgive me :P

(also, how did I know someone would suggest Zerg...:/)

[lammas]

imo toss would be best for u because its much easyer to have decent macro with toss than with other races. then when u have learned basics you can change to some more intresting race if u like.

[MidnightGladius]

Hmm... Zerg may be easier for versatility, but it's much harder for other reasons, like:

- When to build drones, and how many drones to build
- Microing large numbers of units
- Expanding. Ugh.

If they select their races, you ought to be fine, but if they random, you can do a "safe" build - scout when your depot is starting, go 10rax 12ref and pump rines from your rax.

This is nice and versatile, because:

If Z: you can spin off into metal, fast expo, or add another rax and go 2rax tank for early sunken breaking.

If P: You're basically doing a gundam rush build, or a fake gundam.

If T: You'll be a bit behind, but it protects if they try 2rax cheesing, and you won't be completely screwed if you get your fac up fast enough.

[Ktan]

MG, I hate to say it, but I didn't get ANY of that terminology. I've not been playing online for long enough. I was confused from 12 ref 10 rax. I'm assuming, however, that is after expansion. I kinda need to get to expansion first, that's the problem I'm having.

[IrishDutchman]

Yeah, can I just ask about the whole 'pool' thing. Is that referring to Spawning Pools or something? I've never heard the term 'pool' before, you'll have to forgive me

9 pool means building a spawning pool at 9 population. 12 hatch is a hatcherie either in your base or at your natural expo at 12 population. capisce?

[MidnightGladius]

Hehe, I have to remember that we were all ignorant of the terms, once. Here ya go in English:

If they select their races beforehand in the pre-game lobby, you ought to be fine, but if they choose "Random" as their race instead, you can do a "safe" build - scout [send a worker to move to each of the empty mains to search for your enemy's position as well as build order] when your Supply Depot is starting. Then, build your Barracks when your Supply Depot finishes (should be on 10 population if you did it right) and your Refinery on 12 population. Once your Barracks is done, build Marines continuously from it until you have 5 or 6.

This is nice and versatile, because:

If the enemy is Zerg: you can spin off into metal [Vultures, Siege Tanks, Goliaths, and Valkyries], expand quickly, or add another Barracks and go 2 Barracks to quick Siege Tanks for early sunken breaking [attacking their initial wall of 5-6 sunkens that protect their natural].

If the enemy is Protoss: You're basically doing a gundam rush build [5 Marines, 2 SCV, 1 Siege Tank, and 2 Vultures w/Mines to contain the enemy and then expand], or a fake gundam [getting that same unit combination, but defending and expanding instead of attacking].

If the enemy is Terran: You'll be a bit behind in terms of who gets their first mechanical units (which can be very important), but it protects you if they try to use a cheese [risky but very powerful build] rush with 2 Barracks pumping Marines, and you won't be completely screwed if you get your first Factory up fast enough so you can begin the "normal" Siege Tank/Goliath/Dropship fun that is TvT.

Make more sense?

[Ktan]

Alot more, yes:D

I need help with the whole SCV thing though. so, I sould build a Depot when I have 8?

Then I should scout with one?

when I have 10 SCV's (I guess including myscout) I build a 'rax.

Awesome, thanks.

Btw, the Ref hint was really handy. I never could tell when I should build one.

Naturally, I'm still open to other advice.
Mainly Macro and Economy concerned :)

[MidnightGladius]

Always build SCVs until you have about 20 mining from each base.

[Siege_Commander]

oh and if it is lost, you can wall in. If you do it right no units can get in, allowing you to tech. You use 2 supply depots and 1 rax.

[Veeger]

20 at each base sounds like a good idea, MG, and I'll try that tonight -- but my immediate reaction to that is it seems like a bit much, not leaving much source points for your other units. But, again, I'm still a rookie with regards to higher strategies.

Personally, I build 10 total SCVs to start -- 8 mining, the 9th start on the barracks, and the 10th starting on a Depot. When the depot is finished, build a second, when the barracks is done, start a second barracks and begin building marines. By then the second depot is done, I usually start a third, keep building marines as they squirt out, and by the time you finish the fourth depot I typically have four marines and two complete barracks.

At that point I usually go ahead and build a fifth depot, and build one marine from each barracks. I use those six marines to start scouting around, the SCV that built the two barracks gets an engineering bay up, followed by an Academy, and the SCV that built the depots builds my refinery (five depots has typically been enough to get a decent base defense going), and I start to build another SCV to help harvest the gas. The SCV gets done a few moments before the refinery, but not by much, and I get that going so I can have a decent build up of gas by the time I get the factory up. All the while, I am pumping out marines like rabbits.

By the time the Academy is done, the marine recon unit has usually scouted out the immediate area enough that I can determine the prime defensive locations, and the SCV can move up there to get some bunkers in place, I move the marines I have produced by this point (usually around 8 or 10) to the defensive location(s), and I usually produce a couple more SCVs at this point -- depending on how many defensive points I have (ie: if there are 3 bottlenecks, I produce three SCVs), to allow one SCV to focus on the building and repair of each fortification.

I use the extra SCV (there is already one at the first bottleneck, so if I have 3 b-necks and produce 3 extra SCVs, I only need 2 for the other b-necks) to begin to work up the tech-tree.

At the beginning of what is considered "mid-game", I focus on getting one siege tank per fortification, and research the siege operation, and one, if not two, missile turrets. I can usually get these all in place before the first rush hits, and with the SCV there at the ready, I can usually keep material/life loss to a minimum. And once I've got a factory, starbase, and science vessel built, I can start maxing out the marine/tank powers, and I have the SCV in the base begin on a third, and after that (depending on how strong my opponent's assault forces are) a fourth barracks, so I can get my marine companies built up.

It is also during this time that all extra marines (the two barracks constantly produce marines, throughout the game) I begin to send out patrols looking for a second mineral supply (assuming I didn't find one during the initial recon, which is usually the case), to set up a second command center, and get an influx of resources.

I read that many people like to use SCVs for scouting, but I always found that to be stupid. They cost the same as marines, and marines can better defend themselves if (and as often happens), you find a mineral supply guarded by two or three buried Zerglings.

[Siege_Commander]

No! is this vs the comp? okay, supply at 8, rax at 9 or 10 and scout with the scv that built the depot. If there zerg, keep building raxes until you have at lest 8(when you have spare money) andim not sure when you shouldget an acad. Then tech to sci vessles reshearch irradate and go Marines and meedics.

Vs Protoss i dont know much.

V Terran its just a metal war. The winner is the one with more numbers and upgrades

[Veeger]

andim not sure when you shouldget an acad.

Your strategy is sound, SC -- I try to go for an academy semi-early because I see the extended marine range as a large advantage. Especially when they are bunkered down, as it lengthens the range at which they can fire.

[WickedImposter]

hmm. if your playing lost, with terran, wallin against toss and terran. i tihnk against zerg you should just go mmf, and you dont need a wallin

[MidnightGladius]

He's on Original, guys, so remember that when you're suggesting Medics. Yes, they're great, but he can't build them, and that's that.

Veeger, we can't really help you until you get BW back - the build orders are so varying that it would be counterproductive to try and teach you Original strategies.

[Siege_Commander]

Oh, but you research stim packs before range.^_^

[MidnightGladius]

Only in BW. In original, stim really just isn't worth it.

Haha, the only BW strat that actually works well in Original is probably the metal build, which seems ironic :)

[Siege_Commander]

<_< you should really teach me this stuff Middy. When do you go on Bnet? And what part of the Globe are you in?

[Veeger]

See, that is another thing with me -- even when I am playing with Brood War, I have never in the past used Stim Packs. All I could tell is that they kicked my marine's buttocks, and never did anything. Supposedly they make them stronger, or something, but I never saw any great and amazing benefit. *shrug*

[Ktan]

The rate of fire bonus is well worth it, and one or two medics cane heal that 10 hp damage in no time. The thing is, although it makes the 'rines easier to kill, they fire more shots in that time than they would normally, making them more cost effective.

That's even if they do die. If the medics do their job...:/

[IrishDutchman]

And it's useful for running and dodging lurker spines etc.

[Ktan]

Yeah, but not everyone sees the gosu micro element :P

[U-238]

Vs Protoss i dont know much.

Standard TvP doesn't differ a whole lot from TvT. Basicly T goes metal (vults with mine and tanks with siege) and take along a few scvs to build turrets. This whole orchestra pushes towards the protoss (thus the term "tank push") and assult expos. When you kill an expo it's handy to lay a mine there so you can see if they come back. Then just run some vultures in there, knock it out again, and move on. Typacil TvP has T building about 6 factories early and later adding in anywhere from 2-6 more depending on resouce income.

Ktan: I'm with lammy on which race you should pick. P is the best beginers race as since they're so expensive it's easier to controll macro. And since you won't have as many units as with Z and won't need to worry about the intense micro.

[MidnightGladius]

On stimpack...Guys, you have to remember that he doesn't have Brood War. keke?

When you do, though, by all means, stimpack first. If you're worried about the health thing, use it before battle, let them heal, and then attack-move.

[Ktan]

Also, we have to remeber this was also about my build orders :P

But I don't mind the hi-jack, honest :D

[Veeger]

lol -- I noticed they seemed to keep talking about me -- tell you what, I'll make a Veeger Build Orders topic for myself. :)