Can't beat protoss in fastest(im zerg)

[BowYoshi]

I met people who builds a crazy base full of cannons and gateways and advances really fast. They send like 36 dragoons when i have 10 or 12 hatcheries with lair and i even tried lurkers.

I can take them out when i have 21 hatcheries and economy controled by using mass guardians. My question is, how do u hold off the first few minutes so i can get either my mass hydra/defiler going ot guardians and mutas ready? (They get their base finished in about 10 minutes)

[blupp74]

I met people who builds a crazy base full of cannons and gateways and advances really fast. They send like 36 dragoons when i have 10 or 12 hatcheries with lair and i even tried lurkers.

I can take them out when i have 21 hatcheries and economy controled by using mass guardians. My question is, how do u hold off the first few minutes so i can get either my mass hydra/defiler going ot guardians and mutas ready? (They get their base finished in about 10 minutes)

You're bound to hear it from someone, so it might aswell be me: Don't play money maps :p

...but, for a more serious answer: In the first minutes all you'll see is zealots and dragoons (if they attack that early). Sunken colonies and zerglings will do nicely against those. The problem is you need to build a huge base to take him later in the game, and then u can't spend too much money on defense.
So go zerglings, make a few sunkens, then tech to lurker fast, build a shitload of those and put at the entrance. By that time he'll have observers and templars, so spread them out and support with hydras and zerglings. Always have overlords there and kill off observers with hydras as soon as you see them.

Then get defilers with dark swarm. Usually people playing fastmaps tend to mass dragoons.

But seriously...play normal maps instead. It may take a little longer to get into (did for me), but it's so much more fun. If you're a Star Wars fan, consider fast maps "the dark side of the force".

[LordOfNukes]

P >>>>>>>>> all in fastest maps if the P isn't a complete idiot.

[blupp74]

P >>>>>>>>> all in fastest maps if the P isn't a complete idiot.

How so?
T wall in, fill up with turrets and tanks, along with vessels....turrets along the sides, while teching to BC and massing. Bring along a few SC to emp templars and dark archons, and it's GG for P. Or mass tank with vult support, switch to gols and wraits if P goes carrier.
(A bunch of wraiths for carrier-hunting is also good).

Z mass hydra and zergling under dark swarm, bring along a group of guardians and devourers. If P go carrier, add in mutas and it's GG for P.

All 3 races have ways of beating the others. Protoss is not an obvious winner, even in fastmaps. It all depends on the player.

Or do you know of an über "tactic" for P in fastmaps that just crushes everything else, regardless?

[WickedImposter]

You're bound to hear it from someone, so it might aswell be me: Don't play money maps :p

dam i wanted to say that :P

anyways, dont play money maps. as for goons, hydras do well against those. or, if you see that he is massing goons, go zerglings. zerglings and hydras work very well against goons

[IrishDutchman]

if you see that he is massing goons, go zerglings. zerglings and hydras work very well against goons

Zerglings work, but not without attention. You'll either need full upgrades and ultra's mixed in, are some good flanking skills. Otherwise most of them will just get shot before they reach the goons. A couple of defilers are always useful too.

[Siege_Commander]

well if they are crax, they will flank fairly easily.

[LordOfNukes]

Unlike conventional melee where the races are generally even due to how they have to be played, fastest money maps are greatly advantageous for Protoss. Protoss units cost a lot of money because they're more powerful. In fastest money maps money isn't much of an issue so you can max out on units faster. This throws off the balance because the Protoss gets a stronger army before the other races. However, what really gives Protoss an edge is superior macro capabilities in a fastest money map. Gateways are the first troop production buildings you get as Protoss meaning you can start your army that much sooner than Terran and even Zerg. They are also cheaper than Factories and you have no desperate need to climb up the tech tree a little higher as you do with Zerg and Terran. You can just lay out a crapload of Gates with the Pylons to support them giving you most of your necessary supply. Also, while your Cybernetics Core is buildigns you can spam in some Zealots without slowing you down which you can't really do in conventional melee.

Both the Terrans and the Zerg are disadvantaged on fastest money maps. Each Terran structure requires an SCV be used to build it which will slow down mining. A Protoss who can macro well on a fastest money map will easily produce a larger army compared to the terran in the early game. The Terran also has to worry about Machine Shops and/or COntrol Towers which take more time and require you to spread out your buildings which makes macroing more difficult. The Terran also has to create a crapload of Supply Depots which takes up mroe space and SCV mining capabilities.

The Zerg has to produce massive amounts of Hatcheries to create an army quickly but each hatchery costs twice what a Gateway does and takes longer to build. If people aren't just sitting still wating to get a ton of money then producing units at the 20 minute mark which oddly enough seems to happen quite a bit, then the Zerg will constantly have to wait for more Larva to appear which is another reason they need so many Hatcheries. In a macrom war with players sending out everything they have to fight and filling up their factory buildings, the Zerg cannot producve units as effectively if he loses his initial force will be weaker in comparison to the Protoss who hasn't many issues to deal with on a map like this. remember the Zerg must sacrifice a Drone for each Hatchery and must construct a lot of Overlords. Protoss Pylons are necessary anyways for Gateway production, smaller than a Supply Depot, and faster than a Supply Depot to produce. Overlords aren't too useful on fastest Maps so they're mostly just a waste of money for supply.

Terran is my main race but anytime I play BGH or in rare circumstance play Fastest Maps I always play Protoss because they're obviously advantaged.

[Siege_Commander]

Yeah... Just have like 12+Gateways on BGH and macro=teh Ownage. I mean, if 10 lots and goons come at you every minite or so, thats heavy pressure. maybe enough to stop BGH games^_^

[BowYoshi]

Thx, ill just build a few more sunkens.

Its not like i only play fastest.

I mostly play normal games when i just logged on or when im not tired but when its night and im tired, i feel like playing fastest more.

hatcheries create units faster than gateways by alot. Even though they cost more minerals(Which dont really matter since its a money map), the speed of unit created and also larva generation speed beats gateway's speed. The most good thing is: U can max out the map and while hatcheries and gateways cost the same space.

[Siege_Commander]

Dont play fastest at all. Period.

[WhiteShade]

Dont play fastest at all. Period.
Please don't and stay away from money maps... I played one as Zerg and lost... bad...:P

[WickedImposter]

maybe enough to stop BGH games

unfrotunately, it dosent :( AND DO NOT PLAY FASTEST POSSIBLE. EVER. IT COMPLETELY KILLS YOUR SKILL.

[PrestonBurke]

Yea, money maps arent that fun. Only if your Zerg and fighint the AI would BGH would be fun. Because then i can cover the whole map in creep colonies! =p

Yea dont forget about what Siege said about Zerglings being good for flanking. They are good for flanking. In the early stages of a game, i only have about 3 sunkesn for defence and i place 2 of them near my drones to protect them and one far away as "point". Then i build my force while having at least 1 group of zerglins burrowed near my choke. When they send in there force i unborrow and flank them with lings. I leave a dozen hyrdras at my base by the front so the there force will be stuck in the middle.

While then... i un-burrow my force at THERE CHOKE and cause havok, but that doesnt always work against the Good Macro player. Plus i'm super slow with expansions.

[Siege_Commander]

its fastest. do you really need to expo?

[WhiteShade]

With Zerg, yes... I learned that the hard way...

[DarkLStrike]

With Zerg, yes... I learned that the hard way...

nah, you dont, im the all powerful pro of money maps :P

and lings doesnt kill goons in money maps, its basicly "range > all" there since people mass.

[Scourge_Splitter]

How so?
T wall in, fill up with turrets and tanks, along with vessels....turrets along the sides, while teching to BC and massing. Bring along a few SC to emp templars and dark archons, and it's GG for P. Or mass tank with vult support, switch to gols and wraits if P goes carrier.
(A bunch of wraiths for carrier-hunting is also good).

Z mass hydra and zergling under dark swarm, bring along a group of guardians and devourers. If P go carrier, add in mutas and it's GG for P.

All 3 races have ways of beating the others. Protoss is not an obvious winner, even in fastmaps. It all depends on the player.

Or do you know of an über "tactic" for P in fastmaps that just crushes everything else, regardless?

very very very very funny that I fail to see 1 P strat named anywhere!

scout/corsair...

used it.... EVERY time... always won!

[Siege_Commander]

scouts suck. Corsairs are good for fighting stacked units, especially mutas.

[Scourge_Splitter]

haha, the only thing scout suck against (as i've seen) are valkyrie and corsair

have you ever tried 50 scout 4 observer and 6 corsair in coördinated attacks...

they destroy even carrier attacks when you use them good.

[Siege_Commander]

Hah. Noob talking. Why the hell would you use scouts for ground attack anyway? Go zealots. And they are too expensive. Youre probably that kirbyman1 guy onbnet.

[Scourge_Splitter]

n00b... first off all, if haven't been on bnet for a long while... and i was not a noob to tell you that.

and you're the noob when you think it's crap when you even haven't ever tried it out.

don't critice me for something you dont know.
besides, looking at all the topics you've started for questions i bet you're the noob here.

but... i'm not going intop this discussion further...
i've done schout tactics (fastest, maybe that will clear up)
and i've always been the victor...

[Siege_Commander]

OH. nvm.

[KrisBower]

very very very very funny that I fail to see 1 P strat named anywhere!

With Money Maps, the two basic strategies that I've found the most effective for Protoss are:
1. Mass Zealots:
If you focus primarily on making Zealots, you can usually completely overrun your enemy. With the leg enhancements and only zealot weapon/armor/shield upgrades, you get your main force up to level 3 quickly. Just build a crapload of gateways and send out 3-4 teams of 12 Zealots. They move so fast you completely overrun most enemies (Tanks, etc...). Since you only have to have a gateway to make them, you are up and running super quick. Keep in mind that this doesn't work for too awefully long, Zealots can't counter air attacks and if your enemy gets a huge air force you are S.O.L. if you can't outrun them.

2. Carrier/Arbitor/Observer combo:
Defence: I usually get my choke points covered with Cannons at the same time as I'm making Zealots, 6 zealots are all that's needed. The cannons job is to kill anything except for Tanks. The Zealots are only to be used to kill tanks, and then ONLY after the other Marines are dead. Have them Hold Position until everything but Tanks are dead. Since early game attacks usually don't usually produce anything outside of the range of cannons for Terran, Zerg, or Protoss, that basic defense will do fine if you do it right.

Offence: Get your Carriers up as fast as you can, they are your priority. Make sure you have LOTS of gas, you'll need it. Get 3-4 Stargates up, working your way to Carrier capability as you build the stargates. I usually have 8-12 Stargates up by the end of the game, but you can get by with 6. The key is the ability to get a full team of 12 Carriers up in the time it takes to make 1 carrier.
Once you have Carriers up, you will want to escort them with Arbitors & Observers. The best ratio that I've found is 12 Carriers, 3 Arbitors, & 3 Observers. The Arbitors & Observers are to Follow the Carriers. Just select an Arbitor & an Observer & then right-click on a Carrier, then do the same for the rest. This keeps the Arbitor from attacking any enemy. As long as an Arbitor is not attacking, it remains a passive target. Also, spread them out & don't have all three Arbitors follow one Carrier, because then the Carriers don't all get cloaked & if that one Carrier dies then the Arbitors just sit still and don't follow the rest of the Carriers. Obviously, the Oberservers are there to detect other cloaked units (Ghosts, burrowed, other observers/Cloaked units, etc...). That strategy has rarely failed me.

In a money map, your main concern is maximizing the damage per unit, as opposed to getting enough recources to make an army. Your enemies just don't stand a chance for the most part, because unless your enemy specifically targets an Arbitor or a Carrier, his units are going to automatically target the Carrier's Interceptors (as they are the only thing that is both uncloaked AND attacking). The Arbitors stay far enough back that the Observer will detect a cloaked Ghost in time for the Interceptors to kill it automatically. Even if he manages to lockdown 1 or 2 of your Arbitors, you still have another one PLUS 12 Carriers.

Anyway, that's what I do on money maps, it's worked pretty good for me so far. Feel free to agree/disagree. Also, keep in mind that I did say that this doesn't work every single time, there are always exeptions to the rule, but this strategy can be easily used by most people.

[own3d0406]

n00b... first off all, if haven't been on bnet for a long while... and i was not a noob to tell you that.

and you're the noob when you think it's crap when you even haven't ever tried it out.

don't critice me for something you dont know.
besides, looking at all the topics you've started for questions i bet you're the noob here.

but... i'm not going intop this discussion further...
i've done schout tactics (fastest, maybe that will clear up)
and i've always been the victor...Please post a replay, I would really like to see this, and you said something about 50 scouts, quite intresting...

And I think siege commander was right to call you a noob, sure he may have asked some noobish questions, but he doesnt go and play fastest maps and mass scouts.

[blupp74]

Anyway, that's what I do on money maps, it's worked pretty good for me so far. Feel free to agree/disagree. Also, keep in mind that I did say that this doesn't work every single time, there are always exeptions to the rule, but this strategy can be easily used by most people.

I think most people here are more interested in what you do in NON money maps. I've been where you are, been bashed for it, then decided to give normal maps a decent try, and really, it's way more fun.

Sure, you'll find getting to a point where you have 12 carriers happens very rarely (they'll kill you long before that), but I promise normal maps offer more diversity, excitement and challenge.

Of course, you'll have to let go of everything you've learned about money maps. And there's no such thing as "NR 20" in normal maps.

[B.A.Baracus]

And there's no such thing as "NR 20" in normal maps.

I sware to gawd Id bitch slap someone if they said "NR" to me.
A bitch slap followed by a 3 pool.

[blupp74]

I sware to gawd Id bitch slap someone if they said "NR" to me.
A bitch slap followed by a 3 pool.

Yeah, that'd be an interesting game.
But really, it's a bit strange...if it occurs in fastmaps...why didn't the same people request the same thing in normal maps?

...probably because such a request would only come from someone close to idiocy, and those people play fastmaps, not normal maps...

(Not saying I was an idiot when I played fastmaps...then again I never requested, or joined, NR games)

[WickedImposter]

n00b... first off all, if haven't been on bnet for a long while... and i was not a noob to tell you that.

and you're the noob when you think it's crap when you even haven't ever tried it out.

don't critice me for something you dont know.
besides, looking at all the topics you've started for questions i bet you're the noob here.

but... i'm not going intop this discussion further...
i've done schout tactics (fastest, maybe that will clear up)
and i've always been the victor...

wow scourge splitter stfu because you are probably the big noob here. and i have merit on my side.

1) you play fastest, UBER-noob map of all time

2) you mass scouts. which sucks. he goes gols, he will have a) numbers, b)attack range, and c) damage. oh and also d) better resources (NOT THAT IT MATTERS ON NOOB MAPS)

3) siegy dosent know fastest because he dosent play it. and hes not noob either. as far as ive seen, your the noob. so stop flaming others and look into yourself first.


*btw Bab lol. 3pool

[Siege_Commander]

Major thread necro:P

[blupp74]

Major thread necro:P

...and yet you choose to keep it alive by posting in it, instead of letting it die :P

(...sort of like me...but I wasn't complaining about necro)

[WickedImposter]

huh siegy? all the other posts that were made ahead of it were 1 day b4 me. so i wasent the necro here :P

[Siege_Commander]

i think the last date was 8-17-06. Oh those joyus bnet days......

[WickedImposter]

ahh it wasent me it was some other guy ya i saw that.