Anyone seeing this??

[Prozerran]

So, I've been laddering and I'll post some replays tomorrow so keep a look-out. I begin with the MK and 5-6 Foots, research defend, and easily creep him to level 3 or 4. It's like no contest. It's just a given. If my opponent attempts a creep-jack or creep-harass, it's a bolt surround to a dead hero or TP. I just keep pumping the foots and creeping the MK until I hit Tier 2. During tech, I pretty much get a harass-free expo since my opponent is desperately trying to catch up to my MK's hero levels. I'm throwing up some towers in my main and several at my expo. I get a Pally and a Workshop at Tier 2 to get a flying machine to scout if I haven't scouted a few times already. If I'm up against NE, I'll switch to rifles to counter hunts. At any rate, if I survive to that point (and so far I have in every game), I clear an expo, push my opponent, and expand. Rinse and repeat. MK/Pally at Tier 3 is even more brutal, with plenty of gold to purchase mana potions, Orbs, and Staves of Sanctuary.

Basically, from Tier 2 on, I've GG'd my opponent unless I'm outmicro'd. So I ask, has anyone seen this and what are they doing to stop it? Post and let me know.

[RedRagToAnOrc]

I was intending trying MK/Rifles against Undead on my return, as part of the whole fast rifling thing. In theory that works perfectly against someone who isn't expecting it (and DK harrasses), but you can counter it by just powercreeping, getting a bunch of summons and not focusing either of the Hu heroes. Hu is pretty much clear to expand whenever he wishes because there isn't a solid unit combo that can stop it, but you are delaying tech and this allows your opponent to tech to Knights/Aboms/Dests etcetera etcetera. Basically, whatever counters you.

[Prozerran]

I wish we had more Hu players at Warboards.

[cole]

I wish we had more players that knew what mk stood for at warboards.

[Prozerran]

I wish we had more players that knew what mk stood for at warboards.

Mountain King? Or is there some hidden rule I'm breaking by trying to discuss the use of the MK?

[Basan]

Mountain King? Or is there some hidden rule I'm breaking by trying to discuss the use of the MK?

I was inclined to post in the same lines but then again thought of the underlying provocation Cole' usually does. Thats and the fact that we already have/had a short terms thread (http://www.warboards.org/showthread.php?t=9362) for WC3-TFT heroes and most units references' a long time ago.

[Prozerran]

Basan, I've got nothin' but love for ya, dawg, but I don't have the slightest clue what you're trying to say...

[cole]

Basan, I've got nothin' but love for ya, dawg, but I don't have the slightest clue what you're trying to say...

All i saw was "blah blah click here blah blah cole". (referring to basan, i mean)

Oh and i was referring to the amount of people here that have no concept of how to use a MK in the first place. Choosing a hero and knowing how to use that hero are two different things.

[Basan]

Basan, I've got nothin' but love for ya, dawg, but I don't have the slightest clue what you're trying to say...

Aww... I 'wuv' ya too. :)
(Look below for explanations that led me to reply in such a 'terrible' manner.)

All i saw was "blah blah click here blah blah cole". (referring to basan, i mean)

Oh and i was referring to the amount of people here that have no concept of how to use a MK in the first place. Choosing a hero and knowing how to use that hero are two different things.

Cute, too cute... Anyway, when I start reading your mind perhaps then I'll stop replying to what you write contrary to the current matter in which your previous post led me to (reply the way I did). I do believe that most, if not all, around these parts of the forum do know what MK does stand for. :P

But since now you've explained yourself better (read, your last paragraph), I'll go quiet about it. *Hint, hint* ;)

I trust that you're saying that he's an excellent meat shield to provide surrounds, yes?

[cole]

No . Im talking about knowning good positioning for MK, knowning when to use bolt, knowning when to use clap over bolt, when to use his passive instead of clap, how to micro him properly, mastering bolt surrounds, knowing what items are best for him, knowing when to get him as a second hero. Clear enough for you?

[Prozerran]

Cole, I don't know about you, but you're making it way too complicated. It's very simple, and I believe I already explained it. Creep with MK and Foots. When opponent's hero comes to harass you, forget about the creep. Bolt and surround the hero. Continue creeping. Opponent leaves you to creep on your own for a while. Defend keeps foots alive and helps kill ranged creeps. I don't know what kind of crack pipe you're smoking thinking there's some "magical formula" to figuring out which MK skill to use and when. It will always be Bolt, Bash, Bolt, Clap, Bolt, Ultimate. Just like Pally will always be Light, Shield, Light, Shield, Light, Shield. As far as micro, it's always going to be situational. You may have played a while, you may know something, but you come off sounding more like you want attention than you do being informative. If there's some big, unknown secret to using the MK, then you would have said something by now. Instead, you're posting like a snotty little punk that sounds like big shit. It's obnoxious. Stop.

Basan, quit egging this shit on. The last thing I wanted this thread to become is a bitch-fest between you and Cole. Shrink your words, be clearer and more straight-forward, and for crying out loud stop trolling Cole's posts. It's obnoxious. Stop.

Now, can we communicate like intelligent people, or are you just going to ignore Proz and behave like insolent little bastards?

[cole]

Trolling post? My post was 100% serious. Saying you go bolt/bash in every situation is stupid and wrong. I go clap first vs dl ghouls because its about 6 times more effective for example. No offense but you dont know enough about microing to use MK first to beat good players. The players i see losing to this are below average to slightly average. MK first is ALOT harder to use effectively compared to AM first and you better know how to use him 100% effectively vs a good player or youll get your ass handed down to you on a silver platter. Also dont overestimate bolt surround vs harrass because there are several ways to counter it..

Perhaps i was a bit harsh but you using MK and using AM are two way different things.

[Basan]

Basan, quit egging this shit on. The last thing I wanted this thread to become is a bitch-fest between you and Cole. Shrink your words, be clearer and more straight-forward, and for crying out loud stop trolling Cole's posts. It's obnoxious. Stop.

Said that was going to stop since Cole' explained himself more accurately. I think it suffices, no?
As for trolling, I'll only say that you're wrong here. I only 'step in' when it seems that he's going on ego, all knowing and arrogant trips. Other than that I have no 'quarrels' with him. I respect him as a good WC3-TFT player (almost assuredly, better than I), but he could be more... *uhm* perhaps humble about it? *RedRag's usual stances come to mind*

[cole]

Beleive me, redrag is by no means a humble bnet player.

[Prozerran]

I can't imagine an instance where Clap would ever be chosen first over Bolt, and even if you did choose Clap first against Ghouls, what the hell do you think Clap is going to do against Ghouls? At the most, it slows their attack and they quickly run away. The strength of UD is in their heroes, not their ghouls. The whole point of using MK is for his combined nuking potential with the Pally.

There's no sense putting a point into Clap at level 1 if a DK just happens upon a creeping MK. A Bolt surround, no matter how remote YOU think it is, would be much more damaging than an MK clapping some ghouls to death. What is the Human going to do then? Attacking a UD base is just suicide until Tier 2. Honestly, Clap first won't do NEARLY as much damage to UD as Bolt.

Now, that being said, adding a point into Clap at level 4 when the MK has a pool of Mana to work with is an entirely different story. So, show us you know what you're talking about with some replays, and I'll rescind my statement that you're just out for attention.

[cole]

I can't imagine an instance where Clap would ever be chosen first over Bolt, and even if you did choose Clap first against Ghouls, what the hell do you think Clap is going to do against Ghouls? At the most, it slows their attack and they quickly run away. The strength of UD is in their heroes, not their ghouls. The whole point of using MK is for his combined nuking potential with the Pally.

There's no sense putting a point into Clap at level 1 if a DK just happens upon a creeping MK. A Bolt surround, no matter how remote YOU think it is, would be much more damaging than an MK clapping some ghouls to death. What is the Human going to do then? Attacking a UD base is just suicide until Tier 2. Honestly, Clap first won't do NEARLY as much damage to UD as Bolt.

Now, that being said, adding a point into Clap at level 4 when the MK has a pool of Mana to work with is an entirely different story. So, show us you know what you're talking about with some replays, and I'll rescind my statement that you're just out for attention.

How about you show us you know what your talking about with replays of you beating people that dont suck with this strat? So your telling me, if he went dl sleep/ghouls you would still go bolt regardless? Thats the most idiotic thing ive ever heard. Even with bolt do you know how hard it is to kill a dk? Especially one that goes pact, which is what hell do when he sees MK. Youll be lucky to get near the DK because of aura and pact well do more than keep him alive. Sure bolt+light is strong, but most good HUs use AM over MK first just because WE/brill aura. You make it seem like the UD will throw is dk straight forward in the middle of a battle and let you surround him. With UD its especially easy to counter a surround. You just use your ghouls to encircle your own hero and only 1-2 footys can attack him while the rest run around like chickens with their head cut off trying to get to him. Attacking a UD base at t1 is suicidal? You do realize you can harrass with mk right? Ive seen a MK with stafff kill 5 acos easily. No shit, their strength is in their heros. But if they no units then it will be hard to keep those heros alive and leveling up. Im not saying going clap first is beneficial in every situation but to say you should always go bolt first just shows you do everything one way and are unable to adapt. Which is what often seperates good players from average players.

[Prozerran]

I haven't seen many good UD's go DK/DL. Most go DK/Lich.

You assume I attack a UD base at Tier 1. That's retarded. I never once said to attack the UD base at Tier 1. I did say to creep your MK like a bitch, and I also said to use Bolt & Foots to ward off creepjacks with surrounds. I do recall saying that.

I'm reasonably efficient with adaptation when I play well. It makes no sense to go clap first in any situation you've already stated. Clap won't do shit against Ghouls that surround an MK. Bolt will at least give you free shots at Ghouls as they run to protect the DK. It's a lot easier to harass and delay an MK's levelling if the MK goes clap first. Bolt is better through all Tiers. Hands down. You're not making a great case for the Clap. Just because a tactic exists to counter surrounds doesn't mean Bolt is useless. Your foots get free shots at Ghouls retreating to protect the DK. With subsequent Bolts, chances are you can take out most of the Ghouls with a couple more bolts and footmen. Of course, DK can coil, but foots can surround Ghouls and we have a micro war.

Anyone who plays this game knows that a micro war is a part of higher level gaming. It doesn't make the strategy any less effective. It just means players have to know how to react to situations. This still doesn't prove that a circumstance exists where Clap is going to be more effective than Bolt. Please, Cole. Tell me you have more than these obvious attempts at supplying some of the most extreme examples of this match-up. Tell me you've got more than attacking at Tier 1 (I don't remember saying this) and a DK that will go Pact over Coil as a first skill when they haven't even seen the MK at this point (unless he leaves the skill open). Even then, I'd be hard-pressed to believe a UD will actually go Pact against Human when Coil is much more important for creeping and harassing.

[wa123]

some time, I actually do pick skill for hero after I see what my opp hero is.

If I go NE with POTM and my opp is ORC with gay blade, I normally wait before i pick the skill.

If gay blade doesn't come to harras with wind walk at early, I pick "fire arrow"
If the other way, I go owl and get the owl to follow and watch gay blade, while he carrying tons of item and wind walk around like an idiot.

[cole]

I haven't seen many good UD's go DK/DL. Most go DK/Lich.

You assume I attack a UD base at Tier 1. That's retarded. I never once said to attack the UD base at Tier 1. I did say to creep your MK like a bitch, and I also said to use Bolt & Foots to ward off creepjacks with surrounds. I do recall saying that.

I'm reasonably efficient with adaptation when I play well. It makes no sense to go clap first in any situation you've already stated. Clap won't do shit against Ghouls that surround an MK. Bolt will at least give you free shots at Ghouls as they run to protect the DK. It's a lot easier to harass and delay an MK's levelling if the MK goes clap first. Bolt is better through all Tiers. Hands down. You're not making a great case for the Clap. Just because a tactic exists to counter surrounds doesn't mean Bolt is useless. Your foots get free shots at Ghouls retreating to protect the DK. With subsequent Bolts, chances are you can take out most of the Ghouls with a couple more bolts and footmen. Of course, DK can coil, but foots can surround Ghouls and we have a micro war.

Anyone who plays this game knows that a micro war is a part of higher level gaming. It doesn't make the strategy any less effective. It just means players have to know how to react to situations. This still doesn't prove that a circumstance exists where Clap is going to be more effective than Bolt. Please, Cole. Tell me you have more than these obvious attempts at supplying some of the most extreme examples of this match-up. Tell me you've got more than attacking at Tier 1 (I don't remember saying this) and a DK that will go Pact over Coil as a first skill when they haven't even seen the MK at this point (unless he leaves the skill open). Even then, I'd be hard-pressed to believe a UD will actually go Pact against Human when Coil is much more important for creeping and harassing.

Im talking about going pact as a second or third skill..Using bolt rather than clap is more effective vs ghoul surround wtf? One bolt would put one of those ghouls in yellow hp, one clap would put 8 of those ghouls in low hp and slow them. Once you got the second clap off it would be gg those ghouls while footys finished them off. Eh you just dont understand. Unless you think outside the box you wont be able to use MK first good players.

[Yoda]

I would always get bolt over clap, and not get clap at all until much later. Level one clap only does 60 damage per target, which isn't going to do a lot even against ghouls. Stormbolt also allows you to prevent the DK from coiling one of the ghouls on low health which is very useful. ;) Clap also costs a lot more mana.

If I go NE with POTM and my opp is ORC with gay blade, I normally wait before i pick the skill.

If gay blade doesn't come to harras with wind walk at early, I pick "fire arrow"
If the other way, I go owl and get the owl to follow and watch gay blade, while he carrying tons of item and wind walk around like an idiot.

I would not recommend getting a POTM against orc, and its even worse if they make a BM. The owl moves so slowly :mad: , and cannot follow a BM around. Get the Demon Hunter first every game!

[cole]

Yoda lets play HUvsUD and see if you still think that.

[GenocideAlive]

Picking Clap as a first skill on an MK w/out an AM around to boost his mana is a very poor idea. You can Clap once for mediocre damage, then Clap again a short time later for equally abysmal damage. Then you have a very expensive, useless footie wandering around.

As the reps that I posted months ago illustrate, generally picking Clap as a fourth skill is done because the extra 10% in Bash isn't as useful as the ability to slow 350 move ghouls down. You don't particularly care about their damage so much as the fact that they fly like fucking Ferraris around your foots and heroes.

Against DL/ghouls, picking Clap may be viable in terms of working the damage up to reasonable enough levels to waste them--but the problem is that 9/10 UD players pick DK. They get ghouls for wood and weak no-hero creeping while they harass with DK. They speed-tech to L3 and make destroyers, finish.

This strategy counters the almost-inevitable arrival of DK to harass and throws the UD player on the defensive. It's particularly effective if you can force the TP, creep an expo, then start the expo while harassing acos mid-tech. It totally tears it apart, and if the UD player doesn't have a backup plan, he's fucked.

If you want a counter to the strat, then just pick mass ghouls and CL. Impale and ghouls + skellie rod will beat the MK + foots + Bolt every time. Proz's strat, which I posted multiple months back, works extremely well.

[cole]

Im not saying clap is better than bolt, but in some situations like if he did go DL, clap would be more viable.

[Prozerran]

No, GA's saying Clap is not a viable solution in any situation where you pick clap as a first skill. He's also reiterating the point that DL/Ghouls is hardly a viable alternative since most UD's go DK Coil. Whether UD's should reconsider their hero selection because of this strategy is for another post, but I highly doubt any UD's will be making such adjustments for a strategy they can still counter through practiced micromanagement. I'm sure GA is not advocating the use of Clap first BECAUSE of this reason. This is where we start toying with semantics and I see a lock on the way. Such a pity, this thread is worth keeping alive IMHO.

[cole]

I have a way of proving you wrong if you give me a game. Mk level 1 with clap will almost always beat mk level 1 with bolt if both sides only have 4-6 to footys.

[Lancer]

if BM is under the effect of owl or dust, does wind walk still do the extra damage for the first hit?

[Nostalgia]

yes sir it still does

[Ender]

if BM is under the effect of owl or dust, does wind walk still do the extra damage for the first hit?

First off, that was really off-topic.

Let's try to keep this thread a little more civil, or else Prozerran's prophecy of a lock will come true.

[Monty]

First off, try getting the bloodmage at tier 2 versus elf. Each skill is handy, although I'd definitely pick siphon mana first against a DH-elf (and let's face it, who isn't?). However, if he picks up a warden first up and gets it to level two el pronto, you can pretty much kiss your chance of effective creeping goodbye, although it's much less aggravating on a larger map with a long distance between spawns.

Now for clap versus bolt. Mk first would probably favour bolt, although waiting to see what you're up against is definitely the best bet. It's not like you need a skill to clear out your first creep spot, anyway.

What is clap actually good against? Here come a couple of stabs in the dark, since I rarely get mk first and I even more rarely neglect to get bolt.

Ok, so clap is good for revealing those bastard shadowmeld units, right? But what makes you think you'll EVER force an elf unit to low hp and force it to meld with foots/clap mk? Plus if they've gotten themselves a dh, you'll have one modest clap to use in a battle.

For orc, it's fairly self explanatory. Not only is it a bad thing to get mk first, but with clap you'll never force the guy outta your base/creep spots!

Only vs ud or human are the choices material. I can't relate any of the mk-v-mk match ups to personal experience, but I have a funny feeling that cole would be right, in that you'd gain more from clap over bolt, since you'd be able to win the battle for position, and surround foots just as easily as you would with bolt. Against an am and two of his summons, I'd say it's a bit trickier, though you'd probably come out alright, maybe getting a summon/footie kill for the loss of none.

Against undead I personally would always choose bolt, because I enjoy killing undead heroes. Although if I wanted to do that, I'd be going pally first. A couple of claps would do enough to deter a dk with ghouls, but how often do you even fight the dk and his ghouls early on? Dk harass, ghouls creeping, ghouls harassing base is probably more common, and your clap will be useless.

Shit, that was a boring post.