Constantly Owned

[own3d0406]

whenever I play on B.net I always lose to sheer numbers. I always think, haha Its only been 6 minutes into the game and I have 6 goliaths and 4 siege tanks, then WTF???!!! theres 20 dragoons at my base and 2 reavers attacking my scvs. I consistently make scvs and my factories/barracks are constantly making units. What am I doing wrong??!!:cry:

[WickedImposter]

maybe you should try making more factories. i replay would be nice

[Cpt.Chronic]

Well, for one, you're building the wrong units. No need for goliaths that early vs. toss. For the most part, only get golis if you scout a stargate. Replace the goliaths with vultures. Not only do they build faster, so you will have more of them, but they cost less money/gas, which also means you can afford more of them, and leave gas left over for more tanks. Vults are also more useful vs. protoss ground since they can lay mines, and are the fastest units on the map, which allows them to run by the enemy and attack his workers, laying mines on the way to slow down the protoss's army as it chases you. You can also use mines to create a buffer zone between siege tanks and enemy units, or if you're attacking you can use mines to cover your flank. Just don't put them too close to your tanks.


Be sure to constantly have 1 unit building in your factories at all times, which means be sure to build supply depots in time. Also, it's good to expand once you feel safe. Maybe lay a few mines at your choke with seige tanks behind it and maybe a couple tanks on the cliff overlooking your choke (most maps have these cliffs- I'm talking about the high ground in your main base). You can start your command center in your main base since it's easier to protect, and by the time it's complete you should have a strong enough force to defend it. If you don't feel safe yet, start making scvs from your new command center and rally them to your other command center until you fill you can float it to your expansion and protect it. Once you do this, be sure to grab 10-12 scvs from your main and transfer them to your expo (you should be constantly producing scvs from your command center).

Basic rule of thumb is either 1 factory (faster expo) or 2 factories (safer) before you start your command center. After you expo, add around 4-6 more factories as money permits, but especially build them if you see your minerals piling up, until you have 8 max or 6 minimum, and then constantly produce units from each and every factory. At this point you will need multiple scvs (2-3) building supply depots to keep up with your unit production.

Also, if you want to prevent reaver drops, put a couple turrets around your command center and seige 2 tanks in between the turrets. Also you turrets at your choke to prevent dts from waltzing in, to make it harder to drop units directly on your seige tanks, and to keep observers from seeing minefields.

[WickedImposter]

Chronic, i tihnk your saying very complicated that he needs to macro more and have more facs. am i right?

[Cpt.Chronic]

Chronic, i tihnk your saying very complicated that he needs to macro more and have more facs. am i right?
Obviously he needs to macro better. That's his problem. My post was telling him how to do that without dying, as well as which units to use, and how to set up his base to protect it against getting overrun from the front, or reaver dropped at his minerals. If you had read my post, I wouldn't have needed to explain it^^

[WickedImposter]

i c. sorry, i wrongly accused you of being wrong.

[own3d0406]

would you need some marines to protect your base in the early stages of a game?

[Cpt.Chronic]

would you need some marines to protect your base in the early stages of a game?
That's optional. If you wall at your ramp, you don't NEED them, but you will need to use scvs to repair the depot (if they attack) until your tank arrives. If you're playing on a map where you can't wall-in, then yes, you need them. If you do build them (by them, I mean around 5 or so) you can use them in an early attack in combination with tanks and vults. Or once you expand, you could build a bunker to help protect your expo and put those rines in it for extra protection.

[crusader96]

build more scvs before you build other things

[Siege_Commander]

Build orders dude

[MidnightGladius]

Chronic is as right as always. One more thing:

When you scout, keep the SCV alive for as long as possible until you see what their tech is. If it's 1gate range goons (you can tell from the cybernetics core spinning), get siege, since otherwise you won't be able to stop them from harassing your ramp, even with a wallin. If you see a robofac or a citadel, get an ebay, even though the first may just mean fast obs.

Later on, comsat frequently to check up on what they're doing (upgrades, number of gates, if they're going air, etc.). Scouting is very, very important.

[Siege_Commander]

Why would you get ebay for citadels? Robotics facility, im assuming to ptotect against drops and tank pushing.

[Gladstone]

how much surplus did u have at the end?

[MidnightGladius]

If you see a citadel, Siege_Commander, it almost definitely means they're going fast DT. Of course, it's possible that they would get it for zeal speed alone, but I doubt it. Zeal speed is worthless in early game when the T hasn't rolled out yet, and storm isn't very useful either in that time, as well.

[lammas]

hmh if you have problems in macro of tvp weve written the macro part of our guide now so maybe it can help (note that some parts are written with capslock. its not because they would be more importnant than others but when i added things to ahzzys text i used caps lock so he would see what ive added):

The macro:

5 RULES ABOUT MACRO.

1. NEVER LET MINERALS ABOVE 200 UNLESS YOU ARE EXPANDING. NOT SPENT MINERAL IS A WASTED MINERAL.
2. EVERYTIME YOU FIND YOURSELF HAVING 200+ MINERALS BUILD FACTORY.
3. NEVER HAVE MORE THAN ONE UNIT COMING FROM ONE FACTORY.
4. NEVER HAVE AN IDLE SCV.
5. NEVER HAVE FACTORY NOT BUILDING UNITS.

MACRO IS FOLLOWING THESE 5 RULES AND KNOWING WHEN NOT TO FOLLOW THEM.

AS SUN TZU SAID 2000 YEARS AGO: "THERE IS NO GENERAL WHO WOULDNT KNOW THESE 5 BASIC RULES. THOSE WHO MASTER THE BASICS WIN,
THOSE WHO DONT, LOSE."

(ahaha this quete was so great that had to put it here even tho sun tzu wasnt actually talking about these rules ~_~)

HOW TO DO MACRO?

THIS IS ONLY ONE WAY OF COURSE, MAYBE NOT THE BEST, BUT IT HAS WORKED FINE FOR ME.
YOU SHOULD HAVE YOUR CC HOTKEYED SO YOU CAN MAKE SCVS ALL THE TIME DURING THE FIRST ~15 MINUTES (FOR SOME PEOPLE
,INCLUDING ME PRESSING 1S TO MAKE SCVS BECOMES REFLECS AND THEY CANT STOP IT EVEN WHEN THEY HAVE ENOUGHT SCVS
YOU CAN SOLVE THIS PROBLEM BY HOTKEYING A FACTORY AS "1" SO IT DOESNT MAKE ANY DIFFRENCE IF YOU DO 1S ALL THE TIME)
EVERYTIME YOU HEAR UNIT COMING FROM FACTORY YOU PRESS 11 SELECT FACTORY AND PUT MORE UNITS COMING. THEN YOU PRESS 22 (OR WHAT
EVER IS YOUR HOTKEY FOR UNITS THAT ARE FIGHTING) AND GO BACK IN MICROING YOUR UNITS. EVERY SECOND YOU DO NOT DO ACTIVE MICRO YOU SPEND
IN MACRO. REMEMBER THAT YOU DO NOT HAVE TO WATCH BATTLES THAT DO NOT REQUIRE YOUR MICROING ANYMORE. WHEN YOU HAVE WHAT WAS NEEDED, FOR
EXAMPLE RETREATED VULTURES TO COVER TANKS BETTER, YOU GO BACK TO MACRO. HOWEVER THIS DOESNT MEAN THAT YOU WOULDNT FOLLOW BATTLES AT ALL.
WHEN YOU HAVE PUT UNITS COMING YOU GO BACK TO BATTLE TO SEE IF THERE NEED FOR MICRO NOW. THIS IS MULTITASKING.


OTHER THINGS ABOUT MACRO IN TVP.

1. Keep on making scv's from every command center until you've got more than enough for several expansions.
2. you don't usually need more than two or three machine shop
factories to produce tanks.
3. Remember to later on add two armories to upgrade your vehicles.
4. Most people keep saying that the terran should have 1 expansion less than toss to keep up with it, but that's often misunderstood.
The terran should always try to outexpand the protoss, the one expansion less thing is just the minimum in it. NOTE THAT TOSS NEEDS
ONLY ONE EXPANSION MORE THAN TERRAN IN ORDER TO WIN THE GAME. IN MY OPION THIS "MAKE 1EXP LESS THAN TOSS" IS JUST PROPAGANDA OF CUNNING
TOSS PLAYERS. HOWEVER BE CAREFUL ABOUT EXPANDING TOO MUCH. 1EXP MORE THAN TOSS IS ENOUGHT. DONT GET GREEDY. EVERY TIME YOU EXPAND YOU SPEND
MINERALS ON THAT INSTEAD OF UNITS. THEREFORE EVERY EXPANSION YOU MAKE WILL MEAN YOU TOSS TO HAVE LARGER AND LARGER ARMY ADVENTAGE. IF YOU TRY TO
EXP 2 TIMES WHEN TOSS DOESNT EXPAND HE IS ABLE TO RUN OVER YOUR DEFENSE.
5. THERE ARE 3 THINGS THAT YOU SHOULDNT DO SIMULTANIOSLY BECAUSE THEY ALLOW TOSS ARMY ADVENTAGE. YOU CAN SURVIVE OUT OF ONE BUT TOO CAUSES HIS ARMY
TO BE TOO BIG. THESE APLY TO EARLY GAME and only early game:
A) DOUBLE EXPAND
B) UPGRADES
C) DROP HARASMENT

[Cpt.Chronic]

I think the thing with toss having 1 more expo and it not being a big deal is because they can expo faster and still protect it, whereas it's harder for a terran to protect an expo outside his main base area. Because of this, it is very likely that at some point in the game, usually around the ~14 minute mark, the Toss will have more expos if he's able to contain or bust your early pushes. Once the Terran has more units he can attack an expo and take another for himself. If the terran can kill an expo or two with his large force, the toss will now be down an expo, so it all evens out in the end...well, if the terran doesn't get owned before he can take out an expo.

[lammas]

yes if toss does double exp he really has 1 exp more at 14 min (or i think a bit earlier at 14min terran has 180 suply etc). Anyways if toss has 1exp more for whole game then he wins.

[own3d0406]

What if he he scouts early and finds that youve gone straight to factories? He could rush zealots. "build more scvs before you build other things" yes, i know, im not a complete idiot.

[Ahzz]

that's why you might do a wall in. And if you see a zealot rush, just build a bunker, and keep building marines. then start building vultures/tanks etc. easily won.

[Siege_Commander]

How are you supposed to correctly wall In? I haven't tried it in other maps, but Whenever I wall in at the 9:00 position at lost temple, I make it wrong cuz my scv's can get through.

[Ahzz]

you cannot explain it here. you gotta watch reps. so it's kinda stupid/pointless question. Anyways, if a scv or marine etc can go through (marines usually can) it's no big deal. You could just correct it by adding a second or third supply to the point where they can go through. Other option is just to keep there a scv or two blocking the way and 1-2 marines more than average so that he won't get so easily through with zealots if he seriously tries rush

[lammas]

http://www.sclegacy.com/strategy/terran/xg3_terranwallin.php

[own3d0406]

It DOES look like marines can get through, and I was told that you should put a bunker between the depots and the barracks.

[Siege_Commander]

Thanks Lammas