View Full Version : 1.21 Suggestions Thread on Blizzard Website
RedRagToAnOrc
07-26-2006, 11:17 AM
An official Blizzard poster has made a thread asking people to suggest balance changes and AMM changes etc. for Patch 1.21.
Here's the link to it;
http://www.battle.net/forums/war3/thread.aspx?fn=war3-general&t=1285714&p=1
Thoughts? Suggestions?
The last guy that made a pre patch thread suggest blizzard give the AM more hp and move speed.
Edit- oh shcweet blizz is actually going to make a new patch.
Nedech
07-26-2006, 11:44 AM
Dryads slow poison should cost some mana or be removed completly -_-
The slow effect needs to be reduced for one thing. Theres so many gay things i wouldnt know where to start. Probally with towers/beastmaster/slow/etc
new hero's i love seeing new hero's in there.
mAnbimanimanimA
07-26-2006, 8:15 PM
new hero's i love seeing new hero's in there.
I doubt we'll be seeing any new heroes soon, if ever. Though there IS one (logical) slot open for a possible new hero in the tavern...
Actually I hope we won't get new heroes, and a balance patch instead.
Ok, here are some suggestions
1) WW collision at level 1, and the cooldown should begin after the BM breaks windwalk
2) Every player-built shop should have a tier 1 dust of appearance. (Mainly to stop abuses from shadowmeld/blademaster, with the enemy not being able to do anything about it).
3) Although I initially disagreed with it, GA did mention that feedback damage for every mana point not burned, due to a low pre-existing mana pool would be a nice punishment for irritating players who mana burn me when I have 5 mana. Except only apply if they were burned with less than 50 mana starting.
6) Dyrads need to a) cost more gold and less wood. b) Slow poison should be autocast and cost 2 mana per hit. 3) Their mana pool should be increased or cost of abolish decreased. 4) They need to give more XP
7) Tanks need a different armour setting. Or a reduced HP, or something. And they certainly need to give about 4 times as much XP as they do now, considering that they are about as hard to kill as Mountain Giants.
Nobody should win with mass towers and tanks, even against an extremely poor player.
8) Towers, and summons, should all give more xp. Something needs to happen about Lava Spawn as well...
9) Roar should only increase damage by 15-20% (25 is too much), and it should take about 5-10 seconds to go between caster and bear form.
10) Take "etheral" form off spirit walkers, but make them immune to magic. Hence no problems with mass dott, although apparently the orcs can counter that now.
11) Players should be able to thumbs-down more team game maps.
Nedech
07-27-2006, 8:50 AM
2 mana per hit isnt all that much, it would still be imbalanced. Especially if there is fountain of mana
First off...
WW collision i agree with, nerfing WW cooldown is just stupid. FS is used alot more often the BM anyways.
Second off..
You dont really need to put dust in all shops but w/e. Things like arcane tower/miltia rape BM harrass.
Third off..
Dryads should cost more gold AND more wood. After all they come from the same building as bears FFS. And 2 mana pure slow poison? And then you want to increase their mana pool? Ok so basically they still have infinite slow poison. And no NE player just gets one dryad anyways.
Fourth off..
Tanks need a higher cost and cost more food.
Fifth off..
Towers need attack speed reduces and gold cost icreases. Orc towers and HU towers are just to abusive. And hell even spirit towers can be gay.
Summons are incredibly imbalanced, mainly because you can rush in with am/beast before your opponent even has dispel -_-.
Sixth off..
Roar is fine and often gets dispeled anyways and really doesnt help that much compared to rejuv which needs the nerf. Bears are too good for meele. Rejuv is way to gayed up.
Seventh off..
I agree with the common SW change BUT make it where when you dispel, it doesnt dispel link as well. That needs to be fixed. Then orc will have alot better chance vs that imbala strat.
But you never even addressed the serious issues so :/
First off...
You dont really need to put dust in all shops but w/e. Things like arcane tower/miltia rape BM harrass.
Yes, but I can't really kill him unless I can detect invisibility until tier 2. Unless I have a unit stun, or maybe even a DH. When I have surrounded him, he just windwalks. :rolleyes:
Third off..
Dryads should cost more gold AND more wood. After all they come from the same building as bears FFS. And 2 mana pure slow poison? And then you want to increase their mana pool? Ok so basically they still have infinite slow poison. And no NE player just gets one dryad anyways.
The increase in mana pool was because they are easily overwhelmed as anticasters. The last time I checked, abolish costs 50 mana and the dyrad mana pool is 200. So they can cast abolish only four times.
The Druid of the Talon when fully upgraded has 400 mana. And obviously everyone will get master training. The mana cost of Faerie Fire is only 45 mana. So they will be able to cast it 8.9 times. Consequently, you will be required to make twice as many dyrads to counter the number of DOTTs.
The banshee has 400 mana when fully upgraded. Curse costs 40 mana. So the banshees will cast curse 10 times. So you will need 2.5 times as many dyrads as banshees.
This is partly the reason why necrowagon works so well against elf - their only realistic counter is the DR and wisps.
Summons are incredibly imbalanced, mainly because you can rush in with am/beast before your opponent even has dispel -_-.
It more seems to be Am/FL, but yes thats a point.
Sixth off..
Roar is fine and often gets dispeled anyways and really doesnt help that much compared to rejuv which needs the nerf. Bears are too good for meele. Rejuv is way to gayed up.
Ok, a unit spell should not be greater than a level 2 aura (Trueshot). Not to mention that it also helps melee units, who are actually the ones doing the damage.
Seventh off..
I agree with the common SW change BUT make it where when you dispel, it doesnt dispel link as well. That needs to be fixed. Then orc will have alot better chance vs that imbala strat.
Certainly, dispell should not target what you yourself cast.
But you never even addressed the serious issues so :/
Like what?
RedRagToAnOrc
07-28-2006, 8:02 AM
Like what?
Cole hates Tier 2 Hu push, he wants to see it nerfed. He also hates towers, summons, autocast spells and casters and wants them all nerfed.
I also think he wants his "stupid mouse (that never works)" to get a buff.
Yes, but I can't really kill him unless I can detect invisibility until tier 2. Unless I have a unit stun, or maybe even a DH. When I have surrounded him, he just windwalks. :rolleyes:
You do realize you can buy dust from a neutral shop? Not to mention during battles DH can neutralize the BM. And if you play any other race then you should be seeing FS used against you more then BM. Hes honestly a underused hero. I usually only go BM on LT (Except vs UD) and usually vs NE. But vs orc/hu/ud its almost always FS first because aoe and wolves prove to be more useful in battle most of the time.
The increase in mana pool was because they are easily overwhelmed as anticasters. The last time I checked, abolish costs 50 mana and the dyrad mana pool is 200. So they can cast abolish only four times.
What exactly overwhelms them? They do just fine as anti casters. In fact your probally using them wrong. You shouldnt rely solely on dryads vs something like necs. Ever hear of 60 gold wisps that rape summons and drain mana in a nice aoe radius?
The Druid of the Talon when fully upgraded has 400 mana. And obviously everyone will get master training. The mana cost of Faerie Fire is only 45 mana. So they will be able to cast it 8.9 times. Consequently, you will be required to make twice as many dyrads to counter the number of DOTTs.
When was the last time you played a NE mirror where the NE went dotts and wasnt fooling around or didnt suck?
The banshee has 400 mana when fully upgraded. Curse costs 40 mana. So the banshees will cast curse 10 times. So you will need 2.5 times as many dyrads as banshees.
Again, people use banshees vs ne...? Since when? Id think a NE would whine more about nuke and gargs then banshees, rofl.
This is partly the reason why necrowagon works so well against elf - their only realistic counter is the DR and wisps.
Warden/panda bear/dryad offensive wisps can completely own this strat. AOE output is so great that skellys pretty much die as soon as they come up. Still not as commonly used as other ud vs ne strats.
Ok, a unit spell should not be greater than a level 2 aura (Trueshot). Not to mention that it also helps melee units, who are actually the ones doing the damage.
For one thing trueshot aura is a AURA and cant be dispelled. Roar can. When you factor in postioning and such in 2s and higher its the range that does the real damage.
Lets compare a few things.
Coil vs bolt
Coil level 3- 300 dmg Bolt level 3-350 dmg WITH a crazy stun time.
Same mana cost... Bolt is what i would like to call a imbalance. Often in orc vshu any unit hit by bolt is pretty much dead :/.
HU towers. 30 gold just to build, 50 to upgrade. They cost less than a ghoul but can be six times as effective. Does that seem right?
Destroyers, Magic immunity, Extremly good DPS with orb, can absorb mana to fuel its dps, can devour magic, AND STILL BE COILED. Id like to see maybe a small hp reduction or armor reduction.
Orc towers need attack speed reduction and higher costs.
FL spawns are pretty retarted.
Beastmaster is still a bitch to counter in the hands of a good player.
Hunts are still pretty messed up in team and in solo. I love how 12 hunts can focus fire hall and you cant repair so you have to waste a TP while he just goes to the next base and does the same shit.
Thats just a few things that stand out~
You do realize you can buy dust from a neutral shop? Not to mention during battles DH can neutralize the BM. And if you play any other race then you should be seeing FS used against you more then BM. Hes honestly a underused hero. I usually only go BM on LT (Except vs UD) and usually vs NE. But vs orc/hu/ud its almost always FS first because aoe and wolves prove to be more useful in battle most of the time.
I usually have to creep the orange camp first, or wait until nightfall. He is underused (I see the FS much more often), but is still very annoying.
When was the last time you played a NE mirror where the NE went dotts and wasnt fooling around or didnt suck?
I was using that as an example - I barely see dotts in NE mirror. But the point is how bad dyrads are at anticasting and how easily they are overwhelmed.
Again, people use banshees vs ne...? Since when? Id think a NE would whine more about nuke and gargs then banshees, rofl.
No, they don't. But suppose an undead decided to - you would still need twice as many dyrads as they have banshees.
Warden/panda bear/dryad offensive wisps can completely own this strat. AOE output is so great that skellys pretty much die as soon as they come up. Still not as commonly used as other ud vs ne strats.
Against necrowagon, you're better off simply skipping the dyrads altogether and getting more bears instead. Dyrads are pratically useless against necrowagon unless they only have 2-3 necros.
For one thing trueshot aura is a AURA and cant be dispelled. Roar can. When you factor in postioning and such in 2s and higher its the range that does the real damage.
That's not the point. It is, in effect, more useful than a level 3 aura which no unit skills should be. And balance changes are all to do with solo, btw.
Lets compare a few things.
Coil vs bolt
Coil level 3- 300 dmg Bolt level 3-350 dmg WITH a crazy stun time.
Same mana cost... Bolt is what i would like to call a imbalance. Often in orc vshu any unit hit by bolt is pretty much dead :/.
Not to mention that the coil will heal your own units 600 HP as well. That's the main purpose of it. Coil can actually be more annoying than bolt because I often there's no point in focus-firing units units because they simply get coiled.
HU towers. 30 gold just to build, 50 to upgrade. They cost less than a ghoul but can be six times as effective. Does that seem right?
It seemed like more than that the last time I checked. :shiftyr: But yeah, nerf mass towers.
Destroyers, Magic immunity, Extremly good DPS with orb, can absorb mana to fuel its dps, can devour magic, AND STILL BE COILED. Id like to see maybe a small hp reduction or armor reduction.
To help with the extremely good DPS with orb, do not cast spells/summon units in it's presence. ;) :rolleyes: :)
Orc towers need attack speed reduction and higher costs.
I think that a reduction in their range would help as well.
FL spawns are pretty retarted.
Just... stop the timer from restarting when they split. That's one change.
Beastmaster is still a bitch to counter in the hands of a good player.
Use dispell, except if they Tier 2 push you or something so you can't get it in time. It's so good that elf gets Tier 1 dispell.... ;)
Hunts are still pretty messed up in team and in solo. I love how 12 hunts can focus fire hall and you cant repair so you have to waste a TP while he just goes to the next base and does the same shit.
Make towers -
I usually have to creep the orange camp first, or wait until nightfall. He is underused (I see the FS much more often), but is still very annoying.
Are you talking about with Ne? How is he "so annoying" if you play NE? If hes underused then what the hell is the point in nerfing him to oblivion? So he can be underused even more?
I was using that as an example - I barely see dotts in NE mirror. But the point is how bad dyrads are at anticasting and how easily they are overwhelmed.
The point is you cant use a situation that NEVER happens as a example. Why would you buff something if you dont need too? Theres a reason people dont use dotts in ne mirror, its because bear dryad is to effective. So lets not make dryad bear EVEN mre effective in mirror pls.
No, they don't. But suppose an undead decided to - you would still need twice as many dyrads as they have banshees.
A UD wont do that, see thats the real point. And if they did they would just get raped, lol. He would have to have a good amount of banshees which would be a waste
Against necrowagon, you're better off simply skipping the dyrads altogether and getting more bears instead. Dyrads are pratically useless against necrowagon unless they only have 2-3 necros./quote]
No, dryads are still good because they cant be hit by nova and slow poison is effective vs ud.
[Quote=yoda]That's not the point. It is, in effect, more useful than a level 3 aura which no unit skills should be. And balance changes are all to do with solo, btw.
Blizz takes into unit effectiveness into all scenarios. And THAT IS THE POINT. You cant counter trueshot aura but you CAN counter roar with dispel. How often do you see people whining about roar instead of rejuv ffs?
Not to mention that the coil will heal your own units 600 HP as well. That's the main purpose of it. Coil can actually be more annoying than bolt because I often there's no point in focus-firing units units because they simply get coiled.
You overrate the healing part of coil so much. AOE can make using coil to heal almost worthless unless on heros. The point is bolt is to effective as a nuke and for picking off units as opposed to other things.
It seemed like more than that the last time I checked. :shiftyr: But yeah, nerf mass towers.
Its not but regardless, towers need a nerf.
To help with the extremely good DPS with orb, do not cast spells/summon units in it's presence. ;) :rolleyes: :)
You seem to be completly oblivious here... You do know about the absorb mana trick?
I think that a reduction in their range would help as well.
No because then it would make them wayyy less affective and would just resort to more towers anyways.
Just... stop the timer from restarting when they split. That's one change.
Nerfing move speed and a hp reduction would be nice so they would be easier to focus fire and kill before they get out of control.
Use dispell, except if they Tier 2 push you or something so you can't get it in time. It's so good that elf gets Tier 1 dispell.... ;)
Right because you have so much dispel at t2 without a lodge even up yet. Even so do you know how much dispel it takes to kill 3 quills, hawk, and 3 wes while trying to keep slow off you and using spirit link at the same time?
To be honest, your basing your assumptions and balance changes off of situations that never happen to begin with.
Make towers -
So basically i have to mass towers in my base to stop that . And waste all that gold/wood. Nice balance.
Nedech
07-28-2006, 11:06 AM
Yoda, you make it sound like Dryads aren't imbalanced and that they should be buffed. And the necrowagon is pretty worthless, you usually destroy them before they can get enough units to push you.
If they do push your base you usually have mass wisps, AOE spells, dryads and fairee dragons.
Well you cant base balance off of situations that never happen to begin with. Nerfing things that arent even used to begin with will just result in those things being used even less and the same strats will continue to dominate.
Yoda, you make it sound like Dryads aren't imbalanced and that they should be buffed. And the necrowagon is pretty worthless, you usually destroy them before they can get enough units to push you.
If they do push your base you usually have mass wisps, AOE spells, dryads and fairee dragons.
I think that dyrads need quite a few nerfs (low gold cost/slow poison/drop very little XP), but are bad at anticasting.
Although nobody has said anything since my last reply, I'll just add two things:
1) Humans should be able to summon militia from any Town Hall in the map if their main is destroyed. Or if they rebuild it they should be able to summon militia from it.
2) Orb of Corruption should only reduce armour by 3 on heroes.
Prozerran
07-30-2006, 11:22 AM
This may be a dumb idea, but I'd like to see heroes lose an item at random when they're killed. I get kills on lvl 1 heroes and a little exp, but they're right back to abusing in no time. If the hero dies, surely he's gonna drop something before he floats away. Ahh, well. No worries. I agree with everyone on everything else.
This may be a dumb idea, but I'd like to see heroes lose an item at random when they're killed. I get kills on lvl 1 heroes and a little exp, but they're right back to abusing in no time. If the hero dies, surely he's gonna drop something before he floats away. Ahh, well. No worries. I agree with everyone on everything else.
Is this a joke?
This may be a dumb idea, but I'd like to see heroes lose an item at random when they're killed. I get kills on lvl 1 heroes and a little exp, but they're right back to abusing in no time. If the hero dies, surely he's gonna drop something before he floats away. Ahh, well. No worries. I agree with everyone on everything else.
Is this a joke?
Nedech
07-30-2006, 2:33 PM
This may be a dumb idea, but I'd like to see heroes lose an item at random when they're killed. I get kills on lvl 1 heroes and a little exp, but they're right back to abusing in no time. If the hero dies, surely he's gonna drop something before he floats away. Ahh, well. No worries. I agree with everyone on everything else.
I like the idea but you shouldn't lose an item if you only have one (losing tp etc) and the upgrade that enables units to pick up items would be usefull :)
If you play the game seriously its a dumb idea -_-.
Nedech
07-30-2006, 5:06 PM
Nice way to state your opinion Cole, do you mind telling us why?
Nice way to state your opinion Cole, do you mind telling us why?
Since you asked nicely. Imagine how game changing it could be. What if you kill a hero and he drops a item like a book of the dead or heal wards? Then you just got a free top quality item without having to do much. I mean the point is its like adding gasoline to a fire. One player could get a lag spike and his hero dies, the other player gets a free book of the dead and he can push becomes twice as strong as before. It makes losing a hero to serious. Think of it this way for example. A dh and a blade, both the same level, die at near the same time. The dh drops heal wards while the bm drops dust. Is this fair? Thats wayyy to luck dependent for me. Sorry.
I think the "drop item" thing is much too luck dependant, as Cole said. Although it's quite a nice feature in custom games.
I get kills on lvl 1 heroes and a little exp, but they're right back to abusing in no time. If the hero dies, surely he's gonna drop something before he floats away. Ahh, well. No worries. I agree with everyone on everything else.
If you kill their hero, by the time it gets back your hero would be level 3 or even level 4. So it can change the game significantly. Although I recommend that if a player loses a hero which is carrying a health potion, all their items drop.*
* This is a joke.
I dont know about dropping items, but im always up for more hero's ^^, just to add something new to the game, if new hero/s are added hopefully new strats will arise...
If you kill a hero early game, that gives you a significant advantage anyways. It gives you half the exp to level two and the oppurtunity to creep around your opponent while his hero revives so you can outlevel.
I dont know about dropping items, but im always up for more hero's ^^, just to add something new to the game, if new hero/s are added hopefully new strats will arise...
Maybe they should try replacing some heroes with new ones? Such as the FL/Panda/Beastmaster? :rolleyes: ;)
Nedech
07-31-2006, 9:07 AM
Panda should stay, they should replace Alchemist
Maybe they should try replacing some heroes with new ones? Such as the FL/Panda/Beastmaster? :rolleyes: ;)
Thats the best suggestion so far.
Dayoh
07-31-2006, 11:11 PM
The alchamist in my opinion is a pretty good second or third hero
The alchamist in my opinion is a pretty good second or third hero
Not really that good of a second hero. Really hes only used seriously in NE mirror combined with bears and stuff. But good players sometimes use him.
The alchamist in my opinion is a pretty good second or third hero
The alchemist is the only hero which I have never seen in a ladder game... :shiftyr:
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