Is there a choice in our own Fate?

[Frattimonde]

I wonder how many think that we all have a choice in our own fate?

I myself thinks so.
Anyone whom agrees?

[Uuugggg]

It's a whacked up question/paradox - everything that happens, was going to happen. Your response to some odd situation is what you were going to do given out mood at the time. Any choice you make is determined by what you're thinking at the time, and everything you're thinking is influenced by the past... Even if you 'change your mind', you were going to change it...
But then you can't possibly predict what's gonna happen much later, and your choices now are still your conscious choices...

So in all practical ways, you determine your own fate....


This has been a rare philosophical statement of Uuugggg.

[EdvardMunch]

Here are some links to stack the favor against free will:
- Is it really possible for free will to be a simple illusion? Yes it is: "A related experiment performed later by Dr. Alvaro Pascual-Leone involved asking subjects to choose at random which of their hands to move. He found that by stimulating different hemispheres of the brain using magnetic fields it was possible to strongly influence which hand the subject picked. Normally right-handed people would choose to move their right hand 60% of the time, for example, but when the right hemisphere was stimulated they would instead choose their left hand 80% of the time (recall that the right hemisphere of the brain is responsible for the left side of the body, and the left hemisphere for the right). Despite the external influence on their decision-making, the subjects continued to report that they believed their choice of hand had been made freely."
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will

- Does our brain act before we are aware?
Benjamin Libet performed an experiment in which he asked volunteers to perform some trivial action. Move a finger, shake a wrist, something like that. He discovered that the command from the brain to shake that wrist came before we were actually aware of our desire to shake that wrist. Here's the findings in Libet's words: "onset of an electrically observable cerebral process (readiness potential, or RP) preceded the appearance of the subject's awareness of the conscious wish to act, by at least 350 msec. That indicated that the volitional process is initiated unconsciously."
* http://www.imprint.co.uk/pdf/Libet.pdf (This isn't about his study, it's a response to someone else's study. I just used it because that quote worked great in the paper I was writing)
He added, though, that we do have the capacity to veto any action we wish, so we still have some control over ourselves.

- Are there concepts which can only exist in our consciousness, and not our brain? Like morality? From the looks of it, humans are the only creatures on Earth with a moral drive. This suggests that we have something deeper that separates us from the animals, could that be a consciousness and, thus, free will?
* http://www.carlzimmer.com/articles/2004/articles_2004_Morality.html - An article on how specific parts of the brain light up when we think about morality, although I suppose the argument can be made that our consciousness is just processing the data through that part of the brain.
* http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3116678.stm - Humans aren't the only ones with morality!

[Frattimonde]

Both of your replies are very Intressting.

Thanks for your opinons.

[KesTrel]

Choice is the tool of the universe. Its the tool that allows intelligence to constantly evolve. In time our choices will lead us where ever we wish to go. Physcially aslo spiritually, as individuals. However at this time, we have come to earth, it appears we have certin things we should learn.

The reality of the universe is, wether you like it, wether you accept it or do not. It is, simply ang logically. :P

[Sars]

I wonder how many think that we all have a choice in our own fate?

I myself thinks so.
Anyone whom agrees?

My thought is that, we sort of have power of our lifes, but, we don't always make the decision that takes us in to one or another way. I.e. our parents decide our names and which school to go to. Even though we grow up, we still, or often, have other people over our heads who makes decisions for us.
So, my "answer" have to be, partial... :smirk:

[TranquilNightElf]

Well There are those who believe that you can't really ontrol what your fate is going to be. but you can try to affect it and do the best you can in the situation given to you like for example that Yes you can plan for your future like if a kid wants to get into Harvard he would need to work like crazy early on in his life ..that way he would be affecting his fate. what then I suppose people would tend to ask what was his fate then if he didn't choose to go into Harvard in the first place..would it be a same fate or would it change...then again some poeple would say that it was fate for him to decide to get into that college. this could go on and i think is borderline on the debate for a supreme entity.



Again a school of thought is that Earth..the universe and all of its living entities are in a ever continuing cycle..kinda akin to birth and rebirth cycles .. and in this cycle everything would hppen over and over again...if you kill someone once you would do it over and over again in a continuous cycle..you can't control that but what you can affect is the now.

I know it would sound a bit corny to bring this line here but it really suits the purpose .
In the FOTR Gandalf said to Frodo something about that it is our task to figure out what to do with the time that is given to us here and now. I found this to be very profound.


So I think that we are going where we are supposed to go to and we can't really tell where we end up (unless if we were prescient).But what we can affect is how we get there.

[zzov]

I ve tought in that question many times before,
is our fate already written or is coincidence an important fact to explain those "radical" changes?
what is fate anywayz? we make our own fate by our actions,

example:
lets say your fate is written: you are gonna die tomorrow by a car accident,
then tomorrow you dont use your car, you dont take cabs, and even you dont walk by big streets with lots of cars.. there's no way to die by a car accident
that could be a choice, not to die today.
but then if the fate is written it would say: "you are gonna die", perhaps not by a car accident but even staying in your house a lamp could fall over you from the roof and kill you.
then what is fate, destiny or coincidence?


In the FOTR Gandalf said to Frodo something about that it is our task to figure out what to do with the time that is given to us here and now. I found this to be very profound.
I liked that too =)

[RelinaIonna]

Free choice and destiny are a two wrongs, its a mesh that is truth. Considering the inifinite realm of possibility, and the statement "Anything that can happen will happen" (Given enough time you will role every side of a dice.) Accepting the Multiverse Theory, their are infinite paralel universes in which anything and everything has, is, and will happen. It is what it is.

[TranquilNightElf]

True..that is another theory ...parallel universes in which all posibilities of each and every event are carried out.

[Sars]

But, it is most unlikely that you will ever know what is going to happen tomorrow, let's say, that you were going to get killed, how could you know that?
In that sort of thinking, I can't resist to think of Final destination.. hehe
And, if we do trick death, will it haunt us later? Or do we not have an number on our heads?

[Battlecruiser]

I.e. our parents decide our names and which school to go to. So, my "answer" have to be, partial... :smirk:
Well if you wanted to you could say no. The reason you don't is because yoo know the consequonces of what would happen if you did. Your parents would be mad, they might kick you out of the house, you might be homeless in the future and you might not get a job. But the decision to leave school is yours. It is always yours, though the consequences that follow will not be in your control.

Anyway to answer the original question, I say yes you have 100% control of whatever you want to do.

[TranquilNightElf]

Except of course you couldn't control all those around you or those events that shape your choices.

To add a little humour and reflection into this (I'm not making a joke out of it so don't worry)
Here is a link to a calvin and hobbes page ..:)

http://www.duke.edu/~jrj2/humor.html

Read the strips under the section entitled "Fate"
It depicts a discussion between calvin and hobbes regarding the responsibility for and the power to choose your actions.

for example here is one showing people's ambivalent attitude towards fate.

http://www.duke.edu/~jrj2/images/C&H_Fate.gif

[Wick3d]

Nothing is by chance, it is by choice. - Kestrel

[RelinaIonna]

Wrong, it happens because it can happen.

[TranquilNightElf]

Yeah the choices that you make are as a result of forces and events shaping your choices which you can't control.

[Battlecruiser]

Nothing is by chance, it is by choice. - Kestrel
So if I roll a die it will get heads because I chose it to get heads? Lets say I chose it to get heads but it got tails. That goes against what Kestral said. Kestrel's quote may sound good but it doesn't make any sense.

[Wick3d]

So if I roll a die it will get heads because I chose it to get heads? Lets say I chose it to get heads but it got tails. That goes against what Kestral said. Kestrel's quote may sound good but it doesn't make any sense.
It was your choice to roll the die in the first place.

[KesTrel]

So if I roll a die it will get heads because I chose it to get heads? Lets say I chose it to get heads but it got tails. That goes against what Kestral said. Kestrel's quote may sound good but it doesn't make any sense.
First off, you would get a number by rolling a dice, rather then a heads or a tails.

You're choice was in rolling the dice, the cocnequence is something that is in responce to you're choice. In this case, the feedback is the number that the dice lands on.

So if you flip a quarter, its your choice. However, with out you actually controlling how it will land, ect the physics behind it. You have the concequence of it landing on a certin heads or tails.

Do not mistake, there are concequences for actions.

In all actuallity, it depends on my point of view which number the dice landed on, it looks to me that all the numbers have "landed". :p which is totaly besides the point.

[Wick3d]

Nothing is by chance, it is either choice or the consequesnce of a choice. - \/\/ick3d

[TranquilNightElf]

Yes but there could me more than one consequences to a choice all equally probable.
You don't have the power to choose which consequence results from a choice.

[KesTrel]

Yes but there could me more than one consequences to a choice all equally probable.
You don't have the power to choose which consequence results from a choice.
That is correct.

Wicked, its not my quote anyways its Dr. Thomas J Chalkos. Phd Msc.

[Battlecruiser]

Haha I am such a retard. I got confused by die and quarter. I meant quarter. Anyway we are getting to technical about the qoute. About if you have a choice in your fate I think you have some control in your fate but not total control. The rest of the control belongs to anything that affects you.

[KesTrel]

Haha I am such a retard. I got confused by die and quarter. I meant quarter. Anyway we are getting to technical about the qoute. About if you have a choice in your fate I think you have some control in your fate but not total control. The rest of the control belongs to anything that affects you.
If we did not have control, there simply would be absolutly no purpose in living. Shoot me now.

[TranquilNightElf]

If we did not have control, there simply would be absolutly no purpose in living. Shoot me now.


We do have control albeit not absolute....

The rest of the control belongs to anything that affects you.

[RelinaIonna]

If we did not have control, there simply would be absolutly no purpose in living. Shoot me now.Where would you like to be shot?

[overdramatic]

i think that we do, fate can't control our choices in life, sure one of your choices might effect your fate, but fate doesn't effect your choices


did any of that makes sense??

[Grom_Icecream]

Im a bit mystified by what Kestrel and Wicked are saying... Are you saying that chance does not exist... because that doesn't really seem correct.

[SC-Insurrection]

I believe that you do have a say in your own fate. However, this is simply because at any given moment you can make choices as to what your going to do. These choice are what can control your fate. But, keep in mind your choices are predetermined by your mood and personality. And your mood and personality, although some people (con artists) are very good at faking them, you can't actaully control such things.

[Spdstr]

I believe that you do have a say in your own fate. However, this is simply because at any given moment you can make choices as to what your going to do. These choice are what can control your fate. But, keep in mind your choices are predetermined by your mood and personality. And your mood and personality, although some people (con artists) are very good at faking them, you can't actaully control such things.
Choices aren't Pre-Determined by your mood, for instance say some guy is at the top of The Stature Of Liberty. If he were to decide to be an idiot and jump down, he'd die, right? But if he brought a parachute with him, he'd be okay. Also, he could decide not to do anything and just look, just walk down the stairs, etc.

I say you can change your fate, but only by small parts, after all you end up at the bottom of the Statue of Liberty anyway, see what I mean?

Member,
~ Spdstr

[TheBB]

I don't believe in free will.

To all of you thinking that it is given proof in free will that we at any time have a choice... There have never been put forth any unquestionable evidence that you actually DO have a choice. There have never been any experiment conducted that proves that in any given situation, what you choose is entirely up to you. There have been no experiments that reconstruct the excact same situation and have the resulting choice(s) being different.

Do you really have a choice even if it appears beyond a shadow of doubt to your mind that you do? There are people that can swear they have seen a ghost, there are people that can swear they have been abducted by aliens ... and there are people that can swear that for any choice they make, they could have chosen differently.

Now, as for the standard replies to this:

Q. So punishment for crimes is obsolete?

A. No it isn't. In any way the system of punishment makes more sense as a behaviour-changer than a revenge-dealer.

Q. Is there no point in living anymore?

A. Sure is. You're going to live a long and happy life, and bring the human species onwards. You just don't have a choice not to. ;)

Q. So this means fate exists?

A. Difficult to answer. I believe that yes, "fate" exists as given through a series of calculations that is in theory possible to do. I.e. given the position, speed and direction of all particles at any one point in time, you can calculate their positions, speeds and directions at any other point in time, thus you can calculate the state of the universe, or your "fate". However, quantum physics rule out the possibility of ever knowing both the position and speed of a particle at the same time, hence, getting the numbers you need for the calculation is impossible. And hence, you can say that there is a "fate", but you can never discover what it is, so the entire fate concept sort of collapses. There's no point assuming it exists anyway.

[Spdstr]

Choices aren't Pre-Determined by your mood, for instance say some guy is at the top of The Stature Of Liberty. If he were to decide to be an idiot and jump down, he'd die, right? But if he brought a parachute with him, he'd be okay. Also, he could decide not to do anything and just look, just walk down the stairs, etc.

I say you can change your fate, but only by small parts, after all you end up at the bottom of the Statue of Liberty anyway, see what I mean?

Member,
~ Spdstr ^ Smart Cookie :D

Member,
~ Spdstr

[TranquilNightElf]

someone is a bit too smug about their previous posts ;)

[Spdstr]

I know :D lol, sorry ;).

Member,
~ Spdstr

[Montgomery]

No - your mood is determinded by your choices. And your choices are fated. Therefore, your mood IS fated - but only because of your choices. Also meaning that your mood doesn't affect your choices - it is your PREVIOUS choices that affect your mood, that in turn affects your choices.

Free will is an illusion. But we must still act out the roles presumed for us... it is fate for some to question fate, it is fate for others to accept it - it is impossible to escape.

[GiaDragoness]

You can look at this argument one of many different ways, I would say one way of looking at this, is that fate happens because of your actions. Another way, is that all things happen in spite or your efforts, the only choice you have, is how you choose to meet your fate, which is the grimmest way possible to look at it. I don't think this is it. Some people would argue, that since everything is already planned out, we have no free will, that is'nt true. I beleive that everything is already planned out, but is planned around what you would do. We all have the choice and power to decide where we head our lives, but no matter the result, it is still written nonetheless.

:smash: Smashy Smashy! :smash:

[Killphill]

So, basicly we are either writing are stories as we go along. Or are we just acting out the already written story?

You wouldnt get into the car ruling out the chance that you would get into an accident. Or you could just do 150kph to work (and get the best donuts). You can base your entire life on probabilty.

Did that make any sense?

If you could see the future you could go off your "path", thus eliminating fate. Or would fate follow you around?

[RelinaIonna]

If you could see the future you could go off your "path", thus eliminating fate. Or would fate follow you around?Well If someone were to choose a different path, you could assemble any path you chose and show it to some one and call it fate. Then when they choose another path that wouldn't be fate. So its the same effect, if someone shows you your fate its not really true unless your really vague.

[singo]

of course when it comes to fate there is always my personal view

shit happens

since we cant prove it and it never affects our everyday life, why bother.
if it happens it happens its not too bad.

always remember, theres someone else worse off than you are so if fate exists...youve got a good deal.

[Cygnus]

I'd have to agree with Singo I guess, as well as many who've posted before in this thread. Who knows if we control our own fates, who knows if it's luck, fate, or something else. All I know is this, I'm alive, whether if it's my choice, luck, or fate who knows.

So either way what happens, happens (if you know what I mean) and you can go about looking at it in any way you want to. The pleasure, the pain, the joy, the sadness, the love, and the indifference (hate isn't the opposite of love)... it's there, you can't deny it. And either way whether it be gods controlling us or random events, we're still along for the ride.

Just make the most of it, because that's all you can do. Stand up and do something. Don't rot and give up, and whether you've made that decision or someone else did eons ago you did something. You tried and that's all that matters.

[XZminX]

Fate....
Destiny.....
Whats it all for, we all gonna die some day!
We are dieing from the day we were born!

[Seal]

There is or isn't, depending on your beliefs.
For me, I think there is.

[GiaDragoness]

Fate....
Destiny.....
Whats it all for, we all gonna die some day!
We are dieing from the day we were born!
Wow, is'nt THAT a grim way to look at things. I would prefer to look at life as, "we are living, ever since the day we are born. We live our lives out, without fear of death, or failure, or persecution. We dont let things stop us from LIVING our lives." I think we are only dying really, the second we stop living, and just try to "survive" in life, instead of trying to make the most of it.

PS, i misworded myself a bit slightly in my last post, which was obvious if you took a good look at it. I meant that things happening no matter what you do is a grim way to look at it. I personally, think that life may be written out, but we are completely free to do whatever we want. We have always had the option to do, and change whatever we want. People who look at fate as "we were fated to fail no matter what." NO! You were fated to fail because you friggen gave up! These people over here were fated to win because they wanted to win, not lose! It's all up to you, life may be written, it may not be, but the only thing that we can predict is what we do. anything else, don't worry about it. As long as you do what you will, things will happen as they will. Simple, right? Any question, please call the What-in-the-hell-is-Gia-on-now hotline, at 1-800-I-HAVE-NO-PHONE. Please call between the hours or never, and later..........Or you can just PM me.

:smash: Smashy Smashy! :smash: