Would you stick to morals if there was no reason to?

[Black.Ice]

I have an interesting question for all of you. Something that me and good friend got into a discussion about:

You have an opportunity. An opportunity to do ANYTHING you have ever dreamed of - without any consequences of being caught.

For example, you walk into a store, and take whatever you wanted. There would be no punishment for this. If you believe in God, or any superior being, there would be no "punishment" for you, or anything.

You can take whatever you want, there will be no cops to worry about, people around you will never know nor act different - but the consequences of the action would still exist. For example, you rob a small mom and pop store. You would never get caught, and your "God", would not care, and let it slide this time.

The small store, losing all it's hard worked earning, would go out of business, etc. etc.

Would you still do it? Small thing? Take a candybar? Take $100 bucks? A $1000?

Or would you be bound by your morales, and your vaules?

Take it to a higher level. Would you kill somone? For example, someone that you hate, with a passion? Kill them off. No worries about getting caught, no God to send you to hell, etc.

Have sex? Rape someone? No worries about HIV, getting caught, DNA testing, etc? But keep in mind, the person will not know it was you - but they will still have gone through that experience.

What would you do?

I'll post what I think later. Just want to see what fellow people think. :)

[KesTrel]

I would not. Material is only is only temorary. I would not steal something.

I respect others rights to exsist, even if they dont respect mine. I certinly would not take anyones freedom to make their choices away. I would not feel great about getting away with something. Infact I would be sad, if there are no concequences for an action , then how would I learn from it ?

Keep in mind, morals are for many people govrend by religous dogomas that are contradictive. Its not the way of the universe. I, as an individual am totaly happy with this choice. I could never speak the word "love" with out first understanding what is respect, to do any of these things shows a total lack or mis understanding of respect.

[Battlecruiser]

Yes there have been some times for me. Once I had to do an essay but because I had procrastinated so much I didn't have enough time to do a good job. I ended up getting a 80 on it. If I could do anything I want without consequesnces I would have asked some really good english writer to make me an essay. But stealing stuff like moeny is not something I would do. Even if I would not get cought I would not do it. It just is not right and even if you do you will feel the guilt later.

[Ender]

I wouldn't do anything that is morally wrong. I wouldn't steal, rape, or kill anyone. I wouldn't drop a nuke or such things. I would however, take up my beef with a few people once and for all.

[Nuts]

people around you will never know nor act different

but the consequences of the action would still exist.

These statements are contradictory. Morality is based on the laws of subjective personal interaction with other living creatures. Your analogy of a small store is flawed, since the store owner would indeed act differently had my actions affected them adversely. No matter how insiginificant my theft, the store owner would change his or her actions to a small degree to compensate for their loss resulting in a guilty conscience for yours truly.

If there were a way to thieve money from a store without harming the ownership, then morality would not be an issue, since morality wouldn't apply unless a living creature were being harmed in some fashion. Morality is directly related to suffering in varying degrees.

Now, to answer your question, no, I would not alter my actions were I able to act without repercussion. Laws do not equal morality in all cases, and should I feel that a person is worth killing, the only thing stopping me is a law, not my morality.

[Black.Ice]

I wasn't clear on my first post. What I meant, when I stated:

people around you will never know nor act different

was, that people wouldn't not know the actions you have commited.

For example, the owner of the shop - He would still act differently, because he was robbed. They would just wouldn't know that it was YOU that robbed it.

Do you see what I'm getting at? I dont make sense at night, usually. ;)

This question, intrigued me. It made me wonder if a lot of people, follow thier daily routines and activites based upon consequences, or "morales", so to speak.

Do people not steal because they afraid that they will be caught, or do people not steal because it's wrong?

[MnementhDedderath]

First off, lemme say that although you may not like me on the other SC board, don't carry that over to this one where the topics are different, this is the other side of me. Viele Dank.

Anyways I believe that morals are negotialble for nearly the entire human race (only 99% maybe can TRUELY stick to their morals through every situation). Everything depends on the situation and what's at stake. Personally I wouldn't take from a small store; unless, that was my only option. I benifit period. I would prefer though to steal several billion dollars from a large international Company. Say obliterate the liquid funds account of an oil company. Sink the treasury of both the DNC and the Republican Party (for ignoring Washington's suggestions, but that's a completely different topic).
Now, it may sound as really self centered for me to say I would choose the situation that benifits me most, but it's not. As a human there are emotional ties to helping people, and you feeling good yourself. So I usually help others because I feel good about it. (Just had to explain myself there abit). On the other hand, there are corporations and people that the world would be better off without. The Gripping hand is, if we didn't have those people none of the decent people would have anything to work for.

[Nuts]

I would prefer though to steal several billion dollars from a large international Company.

So instead of hurting one individual, you would prefer to hurt thousands if not millions of stockholders? How about the people who rely on that company for jobs? Their business partners who might go out of business without their trading ally, thus resulting in more job losses and potentially more stockholder losses. And what about the multitude of other professionals and blue collars workers that provided services to this "large international company?"

You must consdier the ramifications of such an act. Corporations are not faceless entities. It's mentalities like yours that really tick me off as an employer. Stealing from my company is the exact same thing as stealing from one of my employees, I see no difference.

Do you see what I'm getting at? I dont make sense at night, usually.

I understand your sentiment now. However, I do stand firm upon my belief that morals are subjective to your own person. Regardless of who knew, I would feel remorse for committing an act which I myself felt was immoral.

Consider this, if getting caught is the only factor keeping you from robbing said store, then it's not morality in the least, but "fear" that keeps your actions in check.

[Nahotnoj]

I would not steal, kill etc if there where no punishments/people finding out you did it. I think that the point of morals is not "you'll get caught and get punishment if you dont follow moral guidelines", its that doing those things is just wrong and hurts other living things mentally or physically.

[MnementhDedderath]

So instead of hurting one individual, you would prefer to hurt thousands if not millions of stockholders? How about the people who rely on that company for jobs? Their business partners who might go out of business without their trading ally, thus resulting in more job losses and potentially more stockholder losses. And what about the multitude of other professionals and blue collars workers that provided services to this "large international company?"
For the sake of argument I will pick a large corporation, Microsoft. Now if I stole, again for the sake of argument $8 billion from Microsoft, how much would they be hurt? Not in the least bit, when Gates has around $6 billion in liquid personal funds what's that going to say about his company? you could easily estimate that Microsoft has close to $200 billion in liquid funds. $8 billion wouldn't make an apreciable dent in that kinda funds. Or even more lucrative right now Oil Companies have profits in the trillions $8 billion wouldn't dent them either. Their would drop but would reappreciate because of under value.

[Nuts]

For the sake of argument I will pick a large corporation, Microsoft. Now if I stole, again for the sake of argument $8 billion from Microsoft, how much would they be hurt? Not in the least bit, when Gates has around $6 billion in liquid personal funds what's that going to say about his company? you could easily estimate that Microsoft has close to $200 billion in liquid funds. $8 billion wouldn't make an apreciable dent in that kinda funds. Or even more lucrative right now Oil Companies have profits in the trillions $8 billion wouldn't dent them either. Their would drop but would reappreciate because of under value.

Pardon me, but Bill Gates personal fortune is not one in the same with Microsoft. A corporation does not share a bank account with it's stockholders, and regardless of what you think, Gates is simply a stockholder as well as Chairman and CSA, he cannot simply withdraw and deposit money at a whim.

So let's take your anaology and apply it to the real world shall we. You steal $8 billion from microsoft. Where will this money come from? Profit sharing? 401K? Research and devleopment? Payroll? No matter how you slice it, $8 million will affect the employees of Microsoft. In fact, even if you stole it directly from Bill Gates himself, I ask you to consider the investments that he has made over the years. Investments employ others, investments work for the betterment of all people involved. Unless Bill Gates is storing this $8 billion in a matress, you will hurt many people with your thievery.

Until you have a firm grasp on economics, you will never fully understand why you're wrong. But trust me, you are wrong, and wrong you shall remain until you admit that stealing money from any sized organization will ultimately hurt the people.

And for the record, liquid funds are not simply extra money lying around on office desks. These funds are always earning interest somewhere, somehow. Yet again, these liquid investments employ bankers, stockbrokers, administrators and office personel. Are you still convinced that your thievery would affect nobody?

[Subjukator]

I would take under those circumstances that you mentioned Black.Ice only from multi-million dollar corporations or any companies listed on the NYSE.

[Nuts]

I just love it when people rationalize theft. It's quite amusing and sad at the same time.

[AppleTurtle]

you people are retarded, yes, i cannot spell, but i have sence.

morals, they are the human sence of guilt or pride when you do somthing right or wrong. they are persenol punishment above and beyond any phisical or mental punishment. they are a sence of what is write because you were told it was right, but what if they did not tell you it was right? you would have no marals. and nothing would matter. so to answer the question you could revert to a childlike state whare everything you do is right, aand you are infallible. all you do is right. so do it, steal rape kill pleasure yourself beyond all immagination. thats what i would do.

[Black.Ice]

Consider this, if getting caught is the only factor keeping you from robbing said store, then it's not morality in the least, but "fear" that keeps your actions in check.

Bingo, man. Right on the dot.

I was analyzing myself. It made me wonder. I mean, thinking that the fear of only "being caught" was judging my morales. Putting myself in this hypothetical situation, it was pretty surprising to analyze myself, and to see where I stand.

I mean, thinking about it, I first thought, I would steal. Then realizing how terrible this was, and that the only thing that made me not do this was the fear of getting caught, and the consequences from "God".

Over the past few months, I believe asking myself this question has made me a better person. I mean, I think that now, given any situation, it's most important to stick to what you value.

you people are retarded

Sheesh man, what's with starting the post with an insult?

Just discussing our opinions here.

Anywhoo, this is an interesting topic for discussion, I thought. It's interesting to see a wide variety of the spectrum here, from people willing to do anything, to people who stick to their morales.

I'm probably rambling. I'm to damn lazy to check. Or to reread.

[MnementhDedderath]

People individually can be smart, however it is a known sociopsychological fact that employed intelligence decreases the more people you put together. This is why mobs happen, but anyways...

Man is kept in check by fear and fear alone, at the base of our exsistance there is a basic need to benifit ourselves first, and others last. We do get a rise out of helping others but the fact remains that 90% of the things that we feel are wrong to do, we have done at some point or another.

Now yes I have stolen before, and if the need comes I will steal again. When you are hungry, and you steal food it may be wrong under many moral standards, but it is not wrong for you at that moment. And I will admit to my hypocracy, yes it does me off that someone else stole from me, but usually it is more along the lines that I didn't catch them or protect my stuff against it. There is however an exception to this, there is one person who stole from me whom I now will destroy if I ever see him again. This is because of how he went about it. He carries an illegal concealed firearm, and the idiot roomate I was with at the time let him in the apartment frequently, stuff began to disappear from EVERYONE in the apartment, including the roomie that was his "friend". I won't steal from friends, and I won't use a firearm to intimidate anyone who catches me at stealing.

To sum up, I have stolen, when I was broke unemployed and had no food. and I admit my hypocracy.

Now to the next bit, large corporations are completely different, and if you notice where I was talking about stealing from. That company's LIQUID funds, as in a bank account. Then you will say "but that's taking money from the bank that depends on that amount of cash to invest so it can make money and pay it's people." and my response is F*CK THE BANKS. They choose their hours specifically to detriment their customers. (open JUST late enough so you can't stop by before work, close JUST early enough so you can't stop by after work, and half of the tellers have lunch during lunch rush.)

That and banks are among the most profitable business you could run, people just GIVE you money to play with...oh, that and they are insured. And if you think that 8 bill is gonna hurt the Federal Government, think again, it won't and do you know why? because it will just call it deficit spending and move on.

[Nuts]

Now to the next bit, large corporations are completely different, and if you notice where I was talking about stealing from. That company's LIQUID funds, as in a bank account. Then you will say "but that's taking money from the bank that depends on that amount of cash to invest so it can make money and pay it's people." and my response is F*CK THE BANKS. They choose their hours specifically to detriment their customers. (open JUST late enough so you can't stop by before work, close JUST early enough so you can't stop by after work, and half of the tellers have lunch during lunch rush.)

Justifying thievery doesn't make it morally correct, nor does it change the fact that you stole the money from the rightful owner. Simply because banks don't pander for your service does not make them a rightful target for your misdeeds. If you don't like banks, place your money in a credit union, or your matress for all I care. It's not as if the banks have your money hostage, you do have options.

That and banks are among the most profitable business you could run, people just GIVE you money to play with...oh, that and they are insured. And if you think that 8 bill is gonna hurt the Federal Government, think again, it won't and do you know why? because it will just call it deficit spending and move on.

Excuse me, but the federal government is using my money to insure these banks. You steal from the banks, and my money is used to compensate for the loss. Your narrow minded view is the reason that corporate scandal occurs in the first place. Dennis Kozlowski had the same mentality as do you, he thought a few million wouldn't hurt anyone, so why not take a bit for himself. Interestingly enough, you get enough people that have this same mentality and you find your name on the front page of the newspaper along with every other executive, not to mention the millions of TYCO investors who lost a fortune due to the mismanagement of the company.

Steal a dollar from a poor man, steal a million from a rich man, it's all the same and it's all theft. Deny it all you like, it doesn't change the facts.

[MnementhDedderath]

Yes theft is theft is theft and I don't have any problems with it, to a certain extent. I won't steal from friends (directly). Now for your contention that your money is used to insure these banks, I have a question for you, what is the national deficit, and how much of it did you contribute?

Nothing, your money was used and then over spent, by about several hundred billion dollars a year.
If someone stole 8 billion from an insured bank it would just be put off as deficit spending by the government. Your money would not have been spent.

[Nuts]

Yes theft is theft is theft and I don't have any problems with it, to a certain extent. I won't steal from friends (directly). Now for your contention that your money is used to insure these banks, I have a question for you, what is the national deficit, and how much of it did you contribute?

Nothing, your money was used and then over spent, by about several hundred billion dollars a year.
If someone stole 8 billion from an insured bank it would just be put off as deficit spending by the government. Your money would not have been spent.

Deficit = Loss or negative balance.

By your definition, credit card debt doesn't matter since I never actually expended cash.

Once again, you're wrong.

[singo]

Man has no 'better nature', what he has is an instilled morality, provided by the society in which he lives, without a society to grow up in a man would be an animal, a fairly bright animal, but an animal nonetheless.

This is why do-gooders appealing to a criminal's better nature irritate me, there is no better nature to appeal to.

Thus, with no social conditioning ANYONE repeat ANYONE would do whatever they wanted

Sad, but true.