Modifying a map

[Dark_Magneto]

Hey guys.

I got this StarCraft map called Poker Defense 1.1, you may have heard of it. Well there are a few problems with it that I would like to correct. Like the hand values, for starters. Whoever made the map obviously didn't play poker, because they got the hands all wrong. They did, however, lock the map so none of the errors could be corrected.

Anybody know any way I could fix it?

[GrassDragon]

If it's protected you are out of luck. You could try contacting the author for an unprotected version, or completely recreating the map.

[Dark_Magneto]

Actually, I cracked the protection.

All I need now is help changing the things. I'm a newb when it comes to map editing.

Here's a list of things I'm trying to do:

- Second zealot boss doesn't die and subtract lives when he gets to end of the path for Player 1. I need for him to do that.

- Stop Vultures from jamming up when coming out of the spawn chute.

- Fix hands so that they folow poker hand ranking.

- Greatly increase damage of Royal Flush since it's nearly impossible to get.

- Make it so when you get 3 of a kind and a flush, you get the flush instead of the 3 of a kind.

- Tweak damage so that a pair of 7s through 10s do more than a high card Ace.

- Make it so that when you trade a card in, you can't get back the same exact suit and number as the card you just traded in.

- Make it possible to lose lives on reaver levels (right now it's impossible since time expires before their sloe asses can get to the end).

I'd also like to change the order where you can play your hand first, and then decide where you want to lay the foundation.

[Hotshot]

Actually, I cracked the protection.
Maps are protected for a reason. :<

[Hazreihel]

Seems like a good map. I just lost my CD so I can't play it. ^ . ^;

Anyway, good for you for fixing the map. ^_^ Hehe, he cracked it. He didn't break it. So its should be still protected, but editable.

[GrassDragon]

Anyway, good for you for fixing the map. ^_^ Hehe, he cracked it. He didn't break it. So its should be still protected, but editable.
That's what we're talking about. Maps are protected for a reason.

[Hotshot]

So its should be still protected, but editable.
:mad: The whole point of protecting a map is so that people can't edit it. What did you think map protection was for?

[Dark_Magneto]

Maps are protected for a reason. :<

And that protection is removed for a reason as well.

Map protection is not a game feature. Blizzard meant for maps to be open sourced to that they can be modified.

When you have an otherwise good UMS game with some serious rookie mistakes that scream out to be corrected, then I don't see any good reason why not to. All I plan on doing at the minimum is fixing the hand ranking to follow the game is claims to be patterned after: Poker.

Having your map cracked is the price you pay for releasing a good map with some major issues, not leaving any means of contact, and not fixing the problem.

This map is a fairly popular one over a year old and the designer didn't care enough to fix the errors, so it would only make sense that someone would come along and correct them in the absence of the original map author.

I'm not doing like some lame newbs do and just cutting out the author credits and replacing my name. That is a legitimate reason to have maps protected. But when your map has structural flaws in it and you don't fix them, I don't see any legitimate reason why someone else can't correct them.

I also have a question. How does one place bits of various tilesets like the map creator did to spell out "Poker TD" and to create the perimeter around where the hand and card values are up top?

[Hotshot]

If I wanted to alter a map that I didn't make I would suggest to the creator the changes that should be made so that he/she could fix them. If they won't/can't fix the problem(s) themselves, then I would ask for permission to make the changes myself and, only if granted permission, modify it myself. If I couldn't contact the creator, I would make my own map without copying his/her work directly.
Speaking as a mapper myself, I would hate to discover that my work had been modified/copied, even if it was over a small change; I would prefer to fix my map myself. That's the reason I protect my maps - to stop other people from changing them!
What you are doing is underhanded and dishonest.

[B.A.Baracus]

I dont see what he did wrong, the UMS map was flawed and he fixed it. Its not like hes adding secret triggers to a melee map.

[Dark_Magneto]

If I couldn't contact the creator, I would make my own map without copying his/her work directly.

Speaking as a mapper myself, I would hate to discover that my work had been modified/copied, even if it was over a small change; I would prefer to fix my map myself. That's the reason I protect my maps - to stop other people from changing them!
What you are doing is underhanded and dishonest.

Yeah, call me unconventional but I don't think I should have to reinvent the wheel when the complete project that I want to use is already there and just requires slight tweaking.

There's nothing dishonest here about what I'm doing. I'm merely correcting some rookie mistakes that the map maker would have done if he cared enough to do it.

The fact that he did not fix it shows that he didn't care enough to do it, in which case he shouldn't care if I make the necessary corrections.

[Hotshot]

The fact that he did not fix it shows that he didn't care enough to do it, in which case he shouldn't care if I make the necessary corrections.
He/she may not have noticed the problem.

[Dark_Magneto]

True.

Still, that's no reason to let the flaw persist.

If I knew how do design my own UMS of this caliber then I would likely just make my own Poker TD map.

[Aqo]

There's nothing dishonest here about what I'm doing. I'm merely correcting some rookie mistakes that the map maker would have done if he cared enough to do it.
How about if he intended it to be that way? Hmm? Even if you think that there's no chance he did, you should still contact him and ask.

[Dark_Magneto]

How about if he intended it to be that way? Hmm?

There's no way anybody making a defense game based around the value of poker would intentionally screw up the main theme, Poker, that the entire thing is based on.

Even if you think that there's no chance he did, you should still contact him and ask.

Did you read the part where I said the map maker left no contact information?

Despite that, I managed to hunt down an email address after a long search, but he never responds.

So there's no means of contact.

[Aqo]

I already got several emails with suggestions to improve, and bug reports, about a mod I made over a year ago. I mostly only read my in-box once a week or two, so I never responded in time; I stopped working on that mod anyway, but I would find it offensive if someone modified that and released the modification, even if that'd still be under my name.

I did read you posts; I'm not sure what you meant about 'screwing up' the poker theme, though. Poker is all about being able to make your opponents believe what you want them to believe, that's not something that can be done (in the same method) through the internet, so it's possible that the creator intentionally made it that way.

Just because it’s based on something doesn’t mean it has to be exactly the same.

Now, I didn’t play the map, and I only played poker for about 50-60 games very long ago so I might be way off, but the point remains that you shouldn’t be editing someone else’s work without asking them… that’s just wrong.

[Dark_Magneto]

I did read you posts; I'm not sure what you meant about 'screwing up' the poker theme, though.
Let's review.

In poker, the hand ranking is as follows:

High card, 2 pair, 3 of a kind, straight, flush, full house, 4 of a kind, straight flush, royal flush.

In the map, it is set up like this:

High card, 2 pair, 3 of a kind, flush, full house, straight, straight flush, four of a kind, royal flush.

Which is an obvious error.

...but the point remains that you shouldn’t be editing someone else’s work without asking them… that’s just wrong.
I can't ask them because I can't establish a means of contact.

If the guy is so distanced with StarCraft at this point that he won't update known, obvious errors in the map, then what should he care if someone else is kind enough to expend the effort to correct the mistakes?

That's the benefit of having things open sourced. You are capable of fixing errors.

Imagine that you had the source code to Windows XP and XP had a major problem where any time you copied text that included a link, your whole system crashed. Microsoft knew about the error, but never released an update.

Would it be wrong to fix the error yourself?

What if blizzard stopped working on StarCraft and there was a very simple bug that would crash the game and corrupt your maps folder if someone knew how to exploit it. Would it be wrong to make your own fix if you had the means to do so?

Why should we deliberately allow known design flaws to remain and stop them from being fixed?

[Hotshot]

If you don't like the way the map is set up then why don't you just play online poker instead? lol.

[Dark_Magneto]

I do that too, but that's beside the point.

[Ocendo]

If you secretly add triggers to a melee map they wont run in melee so who caresa? lol

Anyway if your a newb when it comes to map making you should learn how to make maps first then start making\modifying maps.

The best way to do it? Self-Learning. Make a simple goal, try and complete it. Make something more complex, try and complete it.
The hardest part for people seems to be learning switches. Which are easy once you start messing around with them.

[DoomGaze]

Looks like this became an issue about map protection. Dark_Magneto's reason seems to be legitamate. What he wants to do is to make a map more enjoyable by fixing some problems. He had attempted to contact the creator of the map several times, but there was no response. Thus, he is left with a map that still has some problems in it, and no permission to fix it.

What the rest of the people here are saying is that maps are protected for a reason, and that it should be up to the author to fix problems. However, the author does not seem to intend to fix it, leaving players of the map unsatisfied with a game of errors. While SEN discourages map unprotection primarily due to map stealing, and rigging, what Dark_Magneto is trying to do is to contribute to the community by improving a map. He is not a professional mapmaker, but he simply wants to make a minor change to a map so that it would be more flawless. Is this wrong? Is this dishonourable? Is this why map protection exists, so that your work is only available to you for your ego, or did map protection exist so that others could not perform malicious changes to the map?

What I see here is a case of extremity against map unprotection. While AqoTrooper may be offended if someone fixes up something from one if his mods or maps, what if the person who edited it attempted to contact you through various forms, asking for your permission to do so? And when you do find out that the map/mod was edited, it was to squash out some bugs that it contained, relieving you of the work it would've taken you to iron out the bugs yourself. Is this not legitamate?

I support map protection. I do not like seeing several hundred versions of Special Forces, (insert name here) Defense, or even Lost Temple. But when there's a problem that detracts players from having a full and enjoyable experience of the map, and the creator neglects to solve this, others should be able to do what the creator refused to do.

[Aqo]

What I see here is a case of extremity against map unprotection. While AqoTrooper may be offended if someone fixes up something from one if his mods or maps, what if the person who edited it attempted to contact you through various forms, asking for your permission to do so? And when you do find out that the map/mod was edited, it was to squash out some bugs that it contained, relieving you of the work it would've taken you to iron out the bugs yourself. Is this not legitamate?
The problem in this specific scenario is that you can't be sure if the map is really bugged or the creator intended it to be that way. If, for instance, a map crashes - than yes, this is surely a bug. Or if all players lose randomly, or if a message gets stuck in a loop and repeats itself endlessly.
However, when a function in the game is working, but not the way you thought it'll work, it doesn't mean that's a bug.
The "ego" of the creator is not the issue here. SC maps are Blizzard's property regardless of who made them. The problem is that if modification of maps like what Magneto did become 'ok' by most mappers, everyone will start doing that, and sooner or later this will lead to obvious corruption of good maps, like what you described with Special Forces.
While Magneto's actions may be legitimate, the fact remains that this also legitimates other actions that are not.

You must draw the line somewhere.

[Dark_Magneto]

Anyway if your a newb when it comes to map making you should learn how to make maps first then start making\modifying maps.

Fair enough. I've done this with pretty much everything else I know.

A couple of questions, if you will.

How do you place buildings on unbuildable areas? Also, what kind of editor does one need in order to take specific squares of a tileset/doodad/etc. and make it map terrain?

I have SCMDraft 2 and the SC-Xtra Editor, but neither of those seems to be able to do it.

[Aqo]

SCMDraft2 can do everything that's possible with mapping, at least, that is currently known.
To place units whereever you want, go to Options > Unit and tick the options you need.
To place "square-terrain", select "Terrain" in the optionbox under 'Advanced' and 'Plugins', and 'Rectangular' three optionboxes to the left. Or, 'Tileset indexed', for specific selection.

[celestial_shdw]

This thread seems to have turned into a battle of protected vs. non-protected. I don't really care about protections because they weren't included with the original game so if the author of the map wants to protect it, it's his/her choice. I'll help with your modding though. Have you changed anything from the last attachment? If you have, please post the updated version and I'll work on fixing the map.

[GrassDragon]

I don't like unprotecting maps, so stop talking about it. Just help Dark_Magneto with his mapping questions and let the protecting/unprotecting discussion die.