Islam... what do you think of when you hear it?

[Shortyland05]

This is just a matter of curiostiy... what do you people think of when you hear that word?(this is MEMBERS LOUNGE! ONE LINERS ALLOWED!)

IM BAACK!:D

[GenocideAlive]

I dunno, I get a lot of strong, mixed imagery and a confused feeling.

It's definitely a very meaningful topic for me.

[Ixion]

I dont see how the topic contains racisim... it was nearly a question. to which he gave no answer himself, so it couldnt contain racism... I myself think the same way about Islam as my own faith, cristianity... both have similarities which can lead to misunderstandings.

Islam believes in one god the same as christianity, belief in any other is heresy. As with both faiths the minority which are often the extremists are the one's who get the headlines and so for those who dont know anything about the faith create their opinion based on those actions.

Many of the motives for these actions are more politically based then faith based. For example the corrolation between the recent terrorist attacks and the fourth crusade.

One claimed a crusade, the other a jihad.

I dont know if the explianation of a crusade is neccisary... more or less the retaking of the holy land of jerusalem by order of the pope.

The fourth crusade was financed by Venice and was targeted at jeruselm but just "happened" to go through and plunder the great city of constantanople.
The former end of the silk road.... this as you guessed made Venice the new economic power-house of the period.

So just as crusades were political tools then jihads seem to be the tools of today.

The jihad was the counter movement to defend the same holy land. Basic rules of which were the retaking of conquered lands without the killing of women, children and, non-combatants. Everyone one of which was ignored in the so called jihad on 9/11. The vast majority of their faith consists of rational people just like ours... they still have their "shirley ropers" but generally sane. Which is why you see the ploy of making it a real jihad is really falling on deaf ears.

So my only beef is with the raticals bent on killing innocents and not the faith as a whole, because ultimately they are seperate.

[Black.Ice]

Seeing that it's my religion, the first thing that pops into my mind is religion.

[IrishDutchman]

I see a dude that I hung out with on my vacation in Dahab, Egypt called Mohammed, he told me a lot about the Islam (is it spelt muhammed or mohammed BTW?)
Man it's so fucking creepy, a year after I went there, it got bombed! It's weird to think you might have eaten in the restaurant or talked to the people that were killed.

[Uuugggg]

The same thinkings brought about from other religions...

[Aqo]

Islam... Arabic... Arabs... Pita with labane in ten shekels...

Yeah. The only reason to travel in Israel's countryside - you'll sooner or later come across a nice arab who sells pita with labane in ten shekels. It's worth so much more... so delicious...

[kongurous]

A crescent.

[Yoda]

I get mixed feelings. You cannot associate all the muslims with one particular group, neither can you do the same with any groups in society. On one hand you have Osama Bin Laden's group, who think its their moral duty to destroy the world (not literally). But on the other hand there are the "moderate" ones who are perfectly friendly to foreigners. I remember having a conversation with two muslim female teenagers about culture the last time I went on holiday, and religion was not mentioned once. When I hear "islam" I remember that conversation (I can't remember what was said though lol), and one of the pictures I saw of Osama Bin Laden on the news. Its unfortunate that the two groups are associated with each other.

To be honest, I often wonder about two things. A) How much we hear about the Islamics is actually true and not a government power-play move, and B) Whether most of the muslims are actually happy.

[TinyDancer]

I think of a family of refugees from Kosovo that my family helped out and taught english a few years ago.

[hammocksleeper]

I think of my knowledge of the early history and development of the religion, in the Middle East and Africa.

[Tharisfal]

Realigious extremists.

Sucide bombers FTW
Osama Bin Laden
Saladin

Not all muslims are religious extremists of course but the question was "what do I think when i hear it". That's what pops into my mind.

[EvilEmpire]

Turkey pops up in my brain, dont like em much...
Islam isnt about terrorism infact its extremely similar to christian religion.:shiftyr:

[Protosschick99]

Religion.

That's it :P

[Mtank]

Saladin


Saladin wasn't a religious extremist.

[GenocideAlive]

More like King Richard's counterpart.

[Darmago]

the first thing that pops into my head is "service" because thats what I was told islam means.

my second thought is a whole bunch of stupid people giving a whole bunch of wise people bad names

[Markpyro]

Sayid from "Lost" >.>

[dunchy]

http://media.spikedhumor.com/16266/yaafm12.swf

That link actually.

[Veeger]

The first image that pops into my head is one of my Computer Science teachers, who is muslim. He and I used to share prayer requests with each other, so we could pray for each other's fellow believers, and whenever we came across a martyr story, be it from either religion, we would share it with one another.

its extremely similar to christian religion

No, they are very different. The only similarity is the monotheistic belief in one Creator. That's like saying Greek Mythology and Hinduism are extremely similar because they both believe in mulitple deities. Obviously, this is foolish.

[GenocideAlive]

No, they are very different. The only similarity is the monotheistic belief in one Creator. That's like saying Greek Mythology and Hinduism are extremely similar because they both believe in mulitple deities. Obviously, this is foolish.
Um, right...except they both believe in the god Yaweh and consider the Bible a holy text. The Muslims don't hold it in the regard that Christians do but to deny their similarities is laughable.

[Veeger]

GA, I'm about to PM you. We're threatening to steer this off topic. :-)

[SHISHKABOB]

Hrmm... well I guess this might be a bit racist but when I think of Islam I think of a bunch of crazy dark skinned fellows ripping off their shirts with explosives taped to their chests and pressing a button while screaming some chant. I know this is incorrect it's just what I see in my mind when someone says Islam. Or I see that 6 pointed star.

[MidnightGladius]

I think of my Islamic friend and his family, who escaped from Venezuela due to religious persecution. We talk a lot about world events, and he's the one who pressed upon me the fact that in any group, you have radicalists and the norm, and you can't possibly categorize them together.

Or I see that 6 pointed star.

That wouldn't happen to be the Star of David, would it?

[Ixion]

Hrmm... well I guess this might be a bit racist but when I think of Islam I think of a bunch of crazy dark skinned fellows ripping off their shirts with explosives taped to their chests and pressing a button while screaming some chant. I know this is incorrect it's just what I see in my mind when someone says Islam. Or I see that 6 pointed star.

Well that can happen when your only window on the world is the media, as for the last comment, im sure that was just plain racisim

[SHISHKABOB]

Yeah I know it's all stuff you just see in the media, but I know what it's really like, I just get that vision.
And yeah MG the Star of David was what I was thinking of.

[Sikawtic]

I think immediately of hypocracy and violence.

[BlackHawk]

Religion.

[GenocideAlive]

Negative stereotypes ftw. :/

[SHISHKABOB]

Yeah, *sigh*. The world is full of them.:cry:

[Yoda]

Um, right...except they both believe in the god Yaweh and consider the Bible a holy text. The Muslims don't hold it in the regard that Christians do but to deny their similarities is laughable.

The only people who think they're similiar are athiests. The only thing I can think of is that they both believe in one God (who is different). And a few similiar Old Testament characters.

[Mtank]

Yeah, *sigh*. The world is full of them.:cry:

Including the ones in your head. Don't pretend to be sorry about things that you're propagating yourself.

[Aqo]

Sucide bombers FTW
Don't even joke about this. This is a horrible thing to say.



By the way, what's with everyone relating Islam to things like that? That's like thinking about Hitler every time you hear 'Christianity'.

[Darmago]

*edit:somthing changed*

[GenocideAlive]

The only people who think they're similiar are athiests.
Do you care to support that statement, or are you just attacking me for slamming your non-existant argument against Evolution in the IR earlier?

[hammocksleeper]

The only people who think they're similiar are athiests. The only thing I can think of is that they both believe in one God (who is different). And a few similiar Old Testament characters.

I'm going to have to jump in here man. I am a faithful Christian and I can see great similarities between Islam and my religion. I have even sometimes imagined the successful practice of both religions in one person. The fundamental creed of Islam is simple: "There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is His prophet." In fact, to join the religion all you have to do is say these words with sincere intent. None of the five pillars of Islam conflict with the Christian religion and in fact many of them overlap (they are the shahadah, which is what I just wrote above "There is no God but Allah, etc," prayer, almsgiving, fasting, and pilgrimage to Mecca). This is what a Muslim is. That's it, that's all thereis to it. The radicalism originates from the various schools of law, however there is just as much radicalism present in Christianity.

[GrassDragon]

By the way, what's with everyone relating Islam to things like that? That's like thinking about Hitler every time you hear 'Christianity'.
The media in the US furthers these stereotypes. They don't seem consider it racism either :\ Look at a black guy funny and you're a racist, talk about an arab blowing something up and people nod.
EDIT: And Yoda921, Christianity, Islam, and Judaism all worship the same God, the God of Abraham.

[TinyDancer]

By the way, what's with everyone relating Islam to things like that? That's like thinking about Hitler every time you hear 'Christianity'.

I really like that analogy. And if you go to a mosque and ask the people there, They will tell you that Allah is the same God as the God of Christianity and Judaism. Like GD just said, it's the God of Abraham. There are a fair number of similarities, they even believe in Jesus, they just say he's a prophet instead of a saviour.

[Lumosa_Brood]

i think of wastefulness.

[MidnightGladius]

Mind clarifying on that? One-liners are just so fun, are they not?

Indeed, the stereotype is proliferated heavily through the US media - notice how they never seem to talk about the North Irish/English clashes (though I do admit it is dying down, somewhat), while we hear every day about new killings and bombings in the Middle East?

I understand proportionate coverage, but I think that what's going on now is a bit much...

[Lumosa_Brood]

by waste i mean i think that it is a waste of time on both sides. it is a waste that islamists think that everyone should hold their beliefs and i think its a waste that other religoins think that islamists should hold thier beliefs

[MidnightGladius]

Eh..... then what do you suggest for as an answer to the problem?

Myself, I don't see any practical solutions that wouldn't be shot down by any of the major groups.

[Lumosa_Brood]

well the only solution would be having people realize that just cause someone is diffrent doesnt mean they are evil to any extent. its sad that people dont get along up to the point of killing but it happens and religious influence sometimes only encourges those with self justification and whatnot

[ShadeZ]

I think about a crescent and a five pointed star.

[Aya]

Misunderstood religion. People assume what they see on TV as what the religion is on the whole. For example, that whole "destroy the infidels" thing in the Qur'an is taken out of context. That passage only applies if Islam comes under attack, like in the Crusades. Islam has something called a Dhimmi, which is the idea that non-Muslims are free to practice their faiths in Muslim lands, but its under the idea that Islam is superior to those faiths. Back when Mohammed was going around Arabia and converting people, he told his followers not to attack the Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians. Indeed, he declare them to be under protection. Muslims view these religions as being similar to their own, except that the holy books to those faiths are corrupted. You see, the Qur'an, IIRC, has never been edited like the bible (i.e. books added, subtracted, etc), so Muslims see their book as being uncorrupted and right.

What many non-Muslims may not know is that Jesus is part of Islam. He's considered to be one of the important prophets, second to Mohammed, I believe. He's not the son of Allah, but was just a normal guy like the rest. During their version of Judgement Day, he's supposed to return and kick some evil ass.

Dave Chappelle, Ice-T are Muslims. ;)

[TheGreatBrain]

Hrmm... well I guess this might be a bit racist but when I think of Islam I think of a bunch of crazy dark skinned fellows ripping off their shirts with explosives taped to their chests and pressing a button while screaming some chant. I know this is incorrect it's just what I see in my mind when someone says Islam.
This is pretty much how it is for me. I think of the religious element too, and I hate people who say that all Muslims are violent savages, but I can't help thinking of the cliche of suicide bombers and crazy extremists.

[Yoda]

Response to the whole "Is Islam similiar to Christianity" thing:

The Islamic extremists seem to be following a literal meaning of the Koran. Or so I've heard. So their God is one of hate and intolerance, not of love and compassion. This is a significant factor.

Also note that Islamic is more ritualistic than Christianity which is more "open." Allah demands that people worship him three times a day at a particular time facing Mecca (How do they pray if they're in space...?). And they do lots of other things. In Christianity, you pray as often as you like, whenever, and facing any direction.

I am not against the idea that muslims idea of history is similiar to Christianity. "Allah" may in fact be a different interpretation of the Christian God, and that the muslims got lost in translation somewhere (and they think that the Christians were lol).

Attitudes and values presented by a faith are important. The Bible states "Turn the other cheek, show compassion to those who hurt you." The Koran (apparently) says "Death to the infidel!!" The difference is important here.

The most significant difference of all is actually in Jesus. The word "Christian" literally means "belonging to Christ." The Muslims have only think of Him as a prophet, but belief in Him is the centre of everything. The MAIN IMPORTANT thing is that Jesus Christ died on the cross (which is also the symbol of Christianity) to save people from their sins.

Of course, this might by insignificant to some of you, so therefore think that Islam and Christianity are similiar.

[Darmago]

From a historic standpoint, the gods of Judaeism, Christianity, and Islam, are all supposedly the one true god of Abraham and Isaac.

So you might beleive that god is peace loving, and they might beleive that god loves war. But it is still their beleif in the same god, just a different interpretation

[TinyDancer]

The Islamic extremists seem to be following a literal meaning of the Koran.

The Christian extremists seem to be following a literal translation of the Bible.

Also note that Islamic is more ritualistic than Christianity which is more "open." Allah demands that people worship him three times a day at a particular time facing Mecca (How do they pray if they're in space...?). And they do lots of other things. In Christianity, you pray as often as you like, whenever, and facing any direction.

I think it's five times a day, facing Mecca. The "in space" thing was on the news the other day, they're working on it. In Christianity, you're supposed to pray all the time. Especially in churches, which if I remember right, usually face a certain direction. I may be wrong on that one, not positive.


Attitudes and values presented by a faith are important. The Bible states "Turn the other cheek, show compassion to those who hurt you." The Koran (apparently) says "Death to the infidel!!" The difference is important here.

Jesus states "Turn the other cheek." The Bible states all kinds of things. The Bible != Jesus.

The MAIN IMPORTANT thing is that Jesus Christ died on the cross (which is also the symbol of Christianity) to save people from their sins.

That he died for your sins. Not that you should try to be a good person. Don't worry about that, become Christian and you've got a free ticket to heaven! Do what ever you want, and as long as you repent on your deathbed and mean it, it's cool with God.

Of course, this might by insignificant to some of you, so therefore think that Islam and Christianity are similiar.

If you learn about Islam, they are quite similar. They teach similar values, and the histories are nearly the same. Nearly. They aren't the same, and no one said they are. But they are alike in many ways, and that's hard to deny if you have any common sense.

[GrassDragon]

The Islamic extremists seem to be following a literal meaning of the Koran. Or so I've heard. So their God is one of hate and intolerance, not of love and compassion. This is a significant factor.
Hahahahaha.

http://www.warboards.org/showthread.php?t=16706&highlight=phelps

[Aya]

Islam has Jesus, Mary, Gabriel, Moses, Abraham and many of the other prophets in the Qur'an. As I said before, the Islamic view of the Bible, Torah and whatever the Zoroastrians use as being the corrupted versions of the Qur'an.

Also like to point out that Kemal Ataturk was a muslim, but when he founded Turkey, he made sure there was freedom of religion for all and a seperation of mosque and state. He made sure Turkey was secular.

Not every muslim is like what you see on the news. Has Kareem Abdul Jaffar blown himself up? I think not.

[Yoda]

What I was trying to say before is that it is an opinion issue only... I'll answer some other things which I think I should, but I'm okay with you thinking that they are similiar.

The Christian extremists seem to be following a literal translation of the Bible.

The Bible states "Turn the other cheek, show compassion to those who hurt you."

Jesus states "Turn the other cheek." The Bible states all kinds of things. The Bible != Jesus.

The New Testament is part of the Bible. The Old Testament (which I think you're referring to) does not directly contradict that, but does impose the death penalty for almost everything. When Jesus comes in, of course, and dies on the Cross for our sins, such things are removed. So the penalties in the Old Testament no longer apply, since that "era" does not exist anymore.

That he died for your sins. Not that you should try to be a good person. Don't worry about that, become Christian and you've got a free ticket to heaven! Do what ever you want, and as long as you repent on your deathbed and mean it, it's cool with God.

Anyone who says they know Me, but does not keep My Commandments, is a liar

You have to keep His Commandments if you call yourself a "Christian" though. Also your repent on your deathbed would have to be sincere... ;)

In Christianity, you're supposed to pray all the time. Especially in churches, which if I remember right, usually face a certain direction. I may be wrong on that one, not positive.

If there is a facing-direction rule, then I haven't heard of it. But I don't notice churches all facing one direction... I think you're wrong here. And you can pray in whatever direction you like, although it would be prudent in a church to face the front.

Islam has Jesus, Mary, Gabriel, Moses, Abraham and many of the other prophets in the Qur'an. As I said before, the Islamic view of the Bible, Torah and whatever the Zoroastrians use as being the corrupted versions of the Qur'an.

Also like to point out that Kemal Ataturk was a muslim, but when he founded Turkey, he made sure there was freedom of religion for all and a seperation of mosque and state. He made sure Turkey was secular.

Not every muslim is like what you see on the news. Has Kareem Abdul Jaffar blown himself up? I think not.

I am OK with this (although I don't know who Kemal Ataturk is) :)

From a historic standpoint, the gods of Judaeism, Christianity, and Islam, are all supposedly the one true god of Abraham and Isaac.

So you might beleive that god is peace loving, and they might beleive that god loves war. But it is still their beleif in the same god, just a different interpretation

I agree with this.

Hahahahaha.

http://www.warboards.org/showthread....ghlight=phelps

They were a bunch of deluded morons. Are.

Edit: I think we should leave this argument alone... since its an argument over opinions. :) And I agree that there are similiarities between Christianity and Islam

[Kazansky]

The Al Kaferoun prayer starts playing in my head and I see images in my mind of the muezzin and cries of the takbir. Don't know what I'm saying? Ask Black Ice.

[SarahK]

Plus if you say anything that "could offend Muslims" here you will have your posts censored as "spam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimethink)".
I'm guessing Neo would've had anyone who printed the muhammed cartoons arrested if he had any real power outside the internet...

[Leosam096]

Neo is trying his best for this thread to be free from skirmishes and fighting. we also don't want people fighting over a religion.

the 7 golden rules for this site are:
1.) play nice.
2.) do NOT SPAM.
3.) don't mess with moderators especially Neo and Schwitzer.
4.) do not surpass kongurous' post mark.
5.) do not think you're any drunker than so-called-drunk members.
EDIT:
6.) don't be stupid and get banned.
7.) don't act like a moderator without sending your resume to Schwitzer.

[ScottieIWU]

7.) don't act like a moderator without sending your resume to Schwitzer.I was under the impression that the resume also had to be accepted before you acted like a mod.

Anyway, I really think of discussions like this. People who aren't muslim saying what people who are muslim believe, almost as if they are some kind of authority on the issue. I think of one of the most misunderstood religions possible, mostly because discussions like this perpetuate stereotypes without ever actually informing people on what Islam is actually about.

[Leosam096]

I was under the impression that the resume also had to be accepted before you acted like a mod.
oh ok, i didn't get to write that one up. :)

[Neo]

YOu mean something like this?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Jyllands-Posten-Muhammad-dr.png/250px-Jyllands-Posten-Muhammad-dr.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Jyllands-Posten-Muhammad-dr.png)

I actually think they were kinda funny. But I can see why muslims were kinda pissed.

For more info; Click Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_cartoons)

Sarah, you ought to realize this sooner, rather then later, you don't really factor high on my list of people to piss off, so I would suggest you just get over it.

-Neo

[Neu(t)ral Damage]

1.) play nice.
Which does NOT include calling people hypocrites or other wise insulting them, or their religious beliefs.

[SarahK]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammed (http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Allah%27s_True_Prophet_Muhammad)

[GenocideAlive]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammed (http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Allah%27s_True_Prophet_Muhammad)
I really wish I could side with you in regard to Neo slamming your posts, but when you post with just a link to a website, you're really asking for it. It's a forum for a reason--it's not a reference page for links. :/

[Kazansky]

I see someone got unbanned... unlike me who got banned from deviantart today... No idea what I did either. Now, back on topic -

A Muslim friend once said to me that the Westerners ridicule their God and are fine with it. The Muslims, on the other hand, consider it a grave sin to ridicule Mohammed or Allah and would probably stone the offender given the chance.

[Leosam096]

In Islam, Mohammed said that Jesus was just another minor prophet of God and Mohammed claimed to be the greatest prophet of all and not Jesus Christ.

this brought trouble because Jesus was God in flesh and died for our sins once and for all and that we can now be freed from sin by asking Jesus/God alone for salvation. we don't need to do anything else to repay God for this.

:)

[Yoda]

YOu mean something like this?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Jyllands-Posten-Muhammad-dr.png/250px-Jyllands-Posten-Muhammad-dr.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Jyllands-Posten-Muhammad-dr.png)

I actually think they were kinda funny. But I can see why muslims were kinda pissed.

For more info; Click Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_cartoons)

Sarah, you ought to realize this sooner, rather then later, you don't really factor high on my list of people to piss off, so I would suggest you just get over it.

-Neo

Wow... I had heard a lot about that cartoon controversy, but never been able to see the cartoons themselves. I suppose checking Wikipedia was the easy thing to do...

Thanks.

[B1x]

this brought trouble because Jesus was God in flesh and died for our sins once and for all and that we can now be freed from sin by asking Jesus/God alone for salvation.

I actually have to disagree with you on that one. I think that God and Jesus are 2 diffrent Spirit Biengs. God, The ruler of all the universe, and Jesus, the King of the earth adn God's first creation. Why else would it say that God was sad when his son died? Or why would It Even state Jesus as his son at all? Why, also, did Jesus state that God was the one giving him the power to work maricles? I'm not a big Church person. But this is something I belive in sternly. Also I belive that the Holy Ghost (Or Holy Spirit) Is Gods power. Not another Bieng at all, but gods ability to Create. It could also be refferd to as: God's Will

Now, More on topic.
Everytime I here the word Muslim I think of another Religion being unfairly ridiculed because of what a few extrmests did.

[SarahK]

If you think Islam is a religion of peace, just try reading the Koran for yourself. Ignore the hype. It's bullshit:
www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran)

or www.thereligionofpeace.com (http://thereligionofpeace.com)

The Bible's not any better, they're both lessons in hate...

[Neo]

If you think Christianity is a religion of peace, just try reading the Bible for yourself. Ignore the hype. It's bullshit.

Personally I've always believed that it goes both ways.

I think the only truly peaceful religons have sprouted out from the asia area; Buddhism, Taoism, etc...

-Neo

[Kingscrab]

The Bible's not any better, they're both lessons in hate... It's all in the interperetation. Anyone can put spin on the messages.

[Leosam096]

I actually have to disagree with you on that one. I think that God and Jesus are 2 diffrent Spirit Biengs. God, The ruler of all the universe, and Jesus, the King of the earth adn God's first creation.
There is a thing a thing called the Trinity, which is the Father The Son and the Holy Spirit, which not stated in the Bible but rather pointed out. Its Three Persons in one God Head, like a clover. If you read the Gospel of John it was never said that Jesus was not created but is God himself/the Word of God. God-incarnate.

What you're saying also sounds like what they teach in Mormonism, that Jesus was just another creation of God and was made as the highest form of angel. that is why Mormonism was considered a cult for saying that Jesus was just another created being and is not God.

[Veeger]

The Trinity is not a simple concept that can easily be explained to anyone. Even well-versed theologians have difficulty understanding it. I don't pretend to fully understand it, but I often liken it to the three phases of matter.

Water. Whether in solid form (ice), liquid form (water), or in gas form (steam/air), the molecular structure of the compound does not change. You could argue in gas form the molecules separate, but for the purposes of this explanation, let's just say that the molecules are still in tact, but loosely separate -- like steam you get from boiling water.

Jesus is the physical form of the Trinity. He is God's form that we, as physical beings, can interact with, speak with, and commune with.

The Holy Spirit is the liquid form. It can fill and conform to any 'body' it inhabits, and nourishes our souls in a different way that the physical (Jesus) or air (Father) does.

The Father is the gaseous form of God (all puns put aside). He is everywhere, and though we cannot see or touch Him, we can sense His presence and see His affects on our environment.

"But how can all three exist at the same time?" You ask? Can you not have an ice cube in a glass of water outside? They all three do exist at the same time, and they are all present at the same time, and they are all part of the same whole -- only in different forms.

[SarahK]

It's all in the interperetation. Anyone can put spin on the messages.
I don't see how these can be misunderstood, the meaning's pretty damn clear:
Corinthians 14:34-35: "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/1cor/14.html#34)
Corinthians 11:6: "...if a woman does go without a veil, she should have her hair cut off..." (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/1cor/11.html#6)
Ephesians 5:22-24: "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/eph/5.html#22) ... And as the Church is subject to Christ, so should wives be to their husbands, in everything." (http://www.thebricktestament.com/epistles_of_paul/instructions_for_women/ep05_24.html)
John 1:7: "... many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist." (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/2jn/1.html#7)
John 1:10: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house" (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/2jn/1.html#10)
Romans 16:17: "mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them." (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/rom/16.html#17)

Or just have a browse through
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/int/long.html
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/women/long.html

[Snot]

I just don't understand the religion, nothing against them; it's just fucked up... Kill yourself and go to heaven and sit with the almighty Allah.

Like governments, religion is a flawed system, where interpretation and thinking can mean life and death for people.

[Kingscrab]

I don't see how these can be misunderstood, the meaning's pretty damn clear: You know what i mean... People pick and choose particular passages that suit their needs and goals. Kind of like you just did. Feel free to quote the entire Bible if you want. I'm sure you will find something with some sort of positive and kind hearted meaning in there somewhere.

You've got way too much free time. If you wish to go on an anti-religious tirade please amuse us and start a thread in the IR.

*claps hands loudly, twice!* Then, go fetch me a mango, wench! :worship:

[GenocideAlive]

I just don't understand the religion, nothing against them; it's just fucked up... Kill yourself and go to heaven and sit with the almighty Allah.
Yes, obviously you don't understand the religion. Try to avoid embarrassing yourself by posting a misinformed negative stereotype.

This is akin to saying, "I don't understand the Christian religion, nothing against them; it's just fucked up. I mean, I wouldn't want to have to picket dead soldier's burials and bomb abortion clinics."

Islam does not, in any shape or form, endorse suicide bombing. Suicide bombers and those that encourage their behavior are citing a passage of the Quran stating that they'll be compensated for every drop of blood they spill in Allah's cause. Obviously, killing people and destroying things is not Allah's cause, but they have been misled into thinking so. Just like Mrs. Phelps and her ilk, and those whom bomb abortion clinics, all the while claiming that God encourages them to do so.

[Snot]

In other words, people kill one another cause some goddamn retard (pardon the language) thinks God, a mysterious, invisible, all knowing, all powerful, an unknown being to the world except for what a couple of men 3000 years ago imagined... told him to do so. Yeah right!

"If I suffer, then I shall make others suffer as I have, and I shall be rewarded for my efforts..." IE Crusades, Islamic Radicals… yada yada yada.

Now I know there are those who follow the religion, and do as it says, and be all good and righteous with the best of intentions. But I have had first hand experience with those who read the holy texts of the Koran and decide to take it upon themselves to do as it commands in the utmost and extremely violent ways, IE Radical Islamic militants blowing themselves up for what THEY THINK is right and killing my fellow Marines in cold blood.

It’s all a matter of interpretation, and the fact that most religions conflict with one another, both in word, and meaning, as well as time honored traditions, the world cannot function as a whole, and will always be squabbling over such demeaning and pointless bullshit.

Say I love cheese, right, I know what I mean. I like the taste of cheese, period, end done. But let’s say you take it like I said I make love to cheese, and you get offended and try and kill me cause of it… Religion is the same way… yes, bad analogy, don’t say a thing.



GA, by the way you talk to most of us, you seem to demand respect. I see that you know what you’re talking about, and understand probably more than myself, and I can respect that, as well as your view on such matters. But if you want respect, and others to listen to you, you had best show just as much respect back. You just bit my head off for something I THOUGHT… for stating my own OPINION. I have never once disrespected you, or caused you harm, verbally, or physically. So I would hope you could show me the same tolerance and respect I’ve shown you.

[GenocideAlive]

GA, by the way you talk to most of us, you seem to demand respect. I see that you know what you’re talking about, and understand probably more than myself, and I can respect that, as well as your view on such matters. But if you want respect, and others to listen to you, you had best show just as much respect back.
I concur. Most would aquiesce that if my views and thoughts are respected, that I am a perfectly amicable character though there are obviously exceptions. Likewise, there are some instances in which I am disrespected and I still remain amicable. But all this aside, I don't particularly care whether or not you "listen" to me, or "respect" me. I am a secure person that doesn't have any particular need for someone else's arbitrary approvals.
You just bit my head off for something I THOUGHT… for stating my own OPINION. I have never once disrespected you, or caused you harm, verbally, or physically. So I would hope you could show me the same tolerance and respect I’ve shown you.
Your thoughts have very little impact on reality unless you are careful to make it so. Additionally, you are not entitled to your opinion no matter how ignorant and offensive it is to others.

Both by the lazy way you worded that post and depicted a rather negative stereotype, you disrespected Islam and by extension offended me. You clarified your position in your follow-up post, but in some ways the damage is already done; there are people that read that and probably won't return to this thread, there are people that read that and may not read further down. You are doing Islam a very harmful disservice by saying such things as "it's fucked up...kill yourself and go sit with allah".

If you wish to have me respect you and your opinions, you are going to have to do more in the way of making them worthy of respect. Otherwise, there is no more reason for me to parade around holding your arbitrary, poorly thought out meanderings in some sort of sacred reverence.

In other words, I'm not going to respect you no matter what you post. If you can't be bothered to post something with 2 oz. of thought and consideration, I'm not going to be bothered to do anything different.

[SarahK]

Kingscrab, there are some good stuff in the Bible and Quran, but the negative stuff contradicts most of it. The funny thing is you're actually being a hypocrite saying that I should ignore the negative stuff and just look at the positive stuff.. Like most religious people...

Islam's got PLENTY of nasty stuff, and plenty to support murder and violence and even more misogyny...

www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/cruelty/long.html (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/cruelty/long.html)
www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/int/long.html (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/int/long.html)
www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/women/long.html (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/women/long.html)

[Veeger]

Actually, Snot, GA was being pretty tame there, lol. I remember the first time he tore into me, I didn't return to the IR for a month! :-P

He can be a little harsh. I've spoken to him about this as well -- I think he doesn't intend for it to be insulting, it's just his nature. Try not to be too upset with him.

As for Sarah: those quotes are also grossly out of context, but you also have to keep in mind that the Epistles were not written by God. They were written by men, and reflect the times they lived. When reading the New Testament, the only books that I ever quote as being "Truth" are the Gospels. The Epistles (any book between the first four and Revelation) were written to specific churches and addressing specific problems in those churches, and were not written with the intent to be considered Universally accepted. People tend to become blind followers, and don't think about stuff like that anymore.

The Epistles are no more "holier" than writings from today's theologians. Dr. Dobson, Billy Graham, etc. They are wise writings, and for the most part I follow their teachings, but I do not delude myself into thinking that God told them to write down every single word that is recorded.

[Kingscrab]

Kingscrab, there are some good stuff in the Bible and Quran, but the negative stuff contradicts most of it. The funny thing is you're actually being a hypocrite saying that I should ignore the negative stuff and just look at the positive stuff.. Like most religious people... How am i being a hypocrite? I never said that i'm not guilty of doing the same from time to time when i debate. I am simply pointing out that people (ie: yourself included) pick and choose the bits that they like or that suit their needs/arguments.

And that i find your tirades amusing, of course.

[SarahK]

God never wrote any book. ;)

[Veeger]

Oh, you know what I meant! The Gospels are autobiographies of those who actually walked with, and communed with, Jesus while He was here. Genesis was orated to Moses while he was on Mt. Sinai, clearing up many problems that had arisen with the old oral tradition (you think we have crazy ideas with the Gnostic gospels, you should study what some of the oral traditions used to teach, lol -- Abram was given 30 different names in one I heard). The last few chapters of Daniel were written down as an Angel spoke to Daniel. John wrote Revelation after God gave him the vision.

With those exceptions, the rest of Old Testament is more-or-less a history book, chronologing the history of the Jewish nation, and the New Testament are a collection of letters written by a number of different Church leaders as they helped each other overcome different obstacles that arose when multiple cultures and peoples came together as one.

The people who go around saying that the entire Bible was "God-inspired" always crack me up. If you want to be technical about it, the Left Behind series was inspired by God too, but I would not quote it as Truth. Would you? lol

[ScottieIWU]

The people who go around saying that the entire Bible was "God-inspired" always crack me up. If you want to be technical about it, the Left Behind series was inspired by God too, but I would not quote it as Truth. Would you? lolI wouldn't even quote it as readable material. The author is about as literate as a dead cow.

Anyway, if Sarah took those quotes out of context, okay. Not every person has a bible scholar sitting over his shoulder telling him when to take a verse literally and when not to. That's why in almost any religion (mostly western ones) you get people who misinterpret the scriptures and turn into crazies. It happens all the time in Christianity, too.

Also, saying that we have to consider the time the Bible was written is a cop-out. If the Bible were the perfect document many hold it to be, egalitarian morals such as no racism, no slavery, etc should have been built in. Especially in those gospels that were "dictated" by God. God shouldn't have just said "eh, I'll go with the times." Cop out argument, ftw.

[Snot]

Alright, I’m just tired of arguing about something that has no end to it due to the insurmountable paths one can take while discussing something of this magnitude. However, the original question at had is a simple one, even if it does offend some of you, either cause you are, or know a member of the Islamic community.

Islam, to me, is proving yourself worthy in your mind, as well as in the sight of God, or Allah, by doing what is right and justice. I quote from a Islamic web site, that had posted the teachings of Islam in the face of the war, to justify their beliefs, and to deny any involvement in the war.

"If anyone harms (others), God will harm him, and if anyone shows hostility to others, God will show hostility to him." Sunan of Abu-Dawood, Hadith 1625... honorable, and well respected I think.

Jihad (struggle) is probably the most misunderstood religious word in existence. It often mentioned on Western TV and radio during news about the Middle East, where it is implied to be a synonym of "holy war" - a call to fight against non-Muslims in the defense of Islam. The vast majority of Muslims have an entirely different definition of Jihad. It is seen as a personal, internal struggle with one's self. The goal may be achievement in a profession, self-purification, the conquering of primitive instincts or the attainment of some other noble goal.

Proselytizing: Muslims are not required to actively recruit others to Islam. In the Qur'an, Allah told Muhammad that "You certainly cannot guide whomever you please; It is Allah who guides whom He will. He best knows those who accept guidance." (28:56). Muslims are expected to explain Islam to followers of other faiths, but it is up to Allah to guide those whom he wishes to.

Suicide: This is forbidden. The Qur'an clearly states: "Do not kill yourselves as God has been to you very merciful" (4:29). Only Allah is to take a life. Since death must be left up to Allah, physician assisted suicide is not allowed. On the other hand, Muslim physicians are not "encouraged to artificially prolong the misery [of a person who is] in a vegetative state."

I never once blamed all Islamic followers for the problems suffered in Iraq, and the Middle East, government plays more of a role in that than religion. I respect the Islamic community, and their teachings. Islam, and Christianity have their own problems, for no one is perfect, and there is no single perfect thing in this word. I’ve been scared, as have many of my friends, and not one of us blames the Islamic group, just those who cause harm to others to seek out ever lasting glory and fame, by defying the teachings of the Koran.

GA, I apologize for any inconvenience, and any problems I may have caused. My deepest regret for mistreating you. And have a nice day.

[GenocideAlive]

Alright, I’m just tired of arguing about something that has no end to it due to the insurmountable paths one can take while discussing something of this magnitude. However, the original question at had is a simple one, even if it does offend some of you, either cause you are, or know a member of the Islamic community.
I hardly consider it "insurmountable" to simply make a paragraph or two explaining your viewpoint without being crassly offensive. Simply avoiding overt negative stereotypes and not broaching complicated subjects with sweeping generalizations and oversimplified, uninformed two-liners does well to this end. It is my personal belief that you are attempting to proselytize (pun intended) others for purposes of excusing your moment of crude, thoughtless behavior that you know was wrong.
Islam, to me, is proving yourself worthy in your mind, as well as in the sight of God, or Allah, by doing what is right and justice. I quote from a Islamic web site, that had posted the teachings of Islam in the face of the war, to justify their beliefs, and to deny any involvement in the war.

"If anyone harms (others), God will harm him, and if anyone shows hostility to others, God will show hostility to him." Sunan of Abu-Dawood, Hadith 1625... honorable, and well respected I think.

Jihad (struggle) is probably the most misunderstood religious word in existence. It often mentioned on Western TV and radio during news about the Middle East, where it is implied to be a synonym of "holy war" - a call to fight against non-Muslims in the defense of Islam. The vast majority of Muslims have an entirely different definition of Jihad. It is seen as a personal, internal struggle with one's self. The goal may be achievement in a profession, self-purification, the conquering of primitive instincts or the attainment of some other noble goal.

etc.
An excellent example of a well thought out opinion, that is both considerate and formed on a good basis. I may or may not agree with it but one cannot deny it has a solid presentation and justification.
GA, I apologize for any inconvenience, and any problems I may have caused. My deepest regret for mistreating you. And have a nice day.
This smacks of sarcasm, which not only undermines your point earlier about respect, but makes me lose respect for you. You were very clearly offensive in your earliest message; why are you bitter that I took offense? For purposes of simply moving on, I will take this apology as sincere and drop it.

But I do advise you to take empowerment in realizing your mistakes rather than taking it as an opportunity to attack those that point them out. If you sincerely have wont to improve, I suggest you check out some of Veeger's stuff. He's got a very diplomatic air and excellent methods for this; I try to learn from him, anyway. Feel free to point out someone better if you know of them.

[Veeger]

Thank you for the compliment, GA. There really isn't a "method" to learn in situations like this -- if you find yourself becoming angry, simply get up and force yourself to walk away until you calm down. Deep down, when every human being (and I mean EVERY human being) is calm, and collected, you will almost never feel the need to insult or belittle anyone. It's simply not in our nature, despite what some socialogists claim.

Anyway, that strayed a little off topic. Well, a lot.

Every religion suffers from a time of bad "karma", if you will. During the exploration period (1500s - 1700s), the European nations used Christianity and "converting the hethens" into an excuse to excercise their own greed and lust for land in the newly discovered continents. I sometimes wonder if we are not simply living through what will be considered Islam's "dark chapter" in its history.

[GenocideAlive]

Thank you for the compliment, GA. There really isn't a "method" to learn in situations like this -- if you find yourself becoming angry, simply get up and force yourself to walk away until you calm down. Deep down, when every human being (and I mean EVERY human being) is calm, and collected, you will almost never feel the need to insult or belittle anyone. It's simply not in our nature, despite what some socialogists claim.
Well, maybe it's not your nature. ;) Either way, it wasn't my intent to give you forum (no pun intended) to begin a treatise on getting along and holding hands.
Every religion suffers from a time of bad "karma", if you will. During the exploration period (1500s - 1700s), the European nations used Christianity and "converting the hethens" into an excuse to excercise their own greed and lust for land in the newly discovered continents. I sometimes wonder if we are not simply living through what will be considered Islam's "dark chapter" in its history.
Kharma implies that there is some sort of comeuppance for misdeeds, which I don't think is appropriate in terms of Christianity or Islam. Though your point in regards to it being a "dark" time for a religion similar to the Crusades seems appropriate.

In an unrelated side note, with my fascination of war strategy and tactics, I do have to give some of the Middle Eastern extremists credit, however, they certainly do embody a unique method of warfare.

[Veeger]

it wasn't my intent to give you forum (no pun intended) to begin a treatise on getting along and holding hands


You didn't?! :cry:


Kharma implies that there is some sort of comeuppance for misdeeds, which I don't think is appropriate in terms of Christianity or Islam.


I used that term in the sense that the Middle Eastern nations are being percieved as acting one way (this isn't necessarily the case for all of them, but the perception is there), so the rest of the world (majority, anyway) is treating them in a manner that seems fitting to their actions.

I've always taken the word kharma to mean "cause and affect". Naturally, for the Hindu or Buddhist, this implies a divine affect, where your actions in this life affect what your status in your next life will be. But it can be used in a more broader "secular" sense, as well.

[B1x]

There is a thing a thing called the Trinity, which is the Father The Son and the Holy Spirit, which not stated in the Bible but rather pointed out. Its Three Persons in one God Head, like a clover. If you read the Gospel of John it was never said that Jesus was not created but is God himself/the Word of God. God-incarnate.


Exactly My point. The Trinity is NEVER stated in the Bible. If it is true, Why dosn't it say it is?

John 8:54,55 -Jesus answered: "If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifies me, he who you say is your God. 55: and yet you have not known him. But I know him. And If I said I do not know him I should be like YOU a Liar. But I do Know him and am Observing his word"

That is strait from the gosple of John. Now If jesus was in fact, God incarnate. Why did he say that he Knew Him and he was following his word? Why did he talk about god as His Father,another person and not a diffrent version of himself?

I'm not a religous person. I'm not going to try and change your view. I respect your stand Leosam, and they way you hold It, I just want you to respect mine aswell. Plus, I'm just stating my belifs. Lets just leave it at that? ok?

[hammocksleeper]

Exactly My point. The Trinity is NEVER stated in the Bible. If it is true, Why dosn't it say it is?

Christians (at least my denomiation, which is the oldest one there is) do not necessarily take the Bible at face value and neither do they use it as their sole source of beliefs and practices. The religion is founded on numerous traditions practiced since Jesus' time and is not simply founded on a specific interpretation of the Bible.

[B1x]

I belive In following the Bible. Havn't you noticed how much Christian Religions are falling apart? The attendance level is dropping. There is 1 religion That follows the Bible word for word, but I'm not going to mention its name for Critisism reasons.

[Veeger]

We Baptists make fun of ourselves, we're certainly not afraid of outside criticism!

Back to your question, however, look back at my post concerning the phases of matter. An ice cube and water both have the same atomic structure, and both can exist at the same time (and within one another), yet they are separate. In the same way, God the Father and God the Son can both be the same, and exist at the same time, yet they are still separate and aware of one another.

[B1x]

God the Father and God the Son can both be the same, and exist at the same time, yet they are still separate and aware of one another.

So They are in fact 2 seperate Beings?

We Baptists make fun of ourselves, we're certainly not afraid of outside criticism!


Its just that the religion I'm studying could be considered alittle...Annoying

[B.A.Baracus]

I think of a Middle Eastern religion, what do you think of.

[TinyDancer]

I think the only truly peaceful religons have sprouted out from the asia area; Buddhism, Taoism, etc...

-Neo

The ones that aren't really religions. I'm not just being discriminatory either, go to a Buddist temple, and they'll tell you that it's not a religion so much as a way of life. There is no deity involved. If I remember right, Taoism is about praying to your ancestors. I've been to a Taoist temple and a Shinto temple, and I can't remember which is which. Oh well.

[hammocksleeper]

I think the only truly peaceful religons have sprouted out from the asia area; Buddhism, Taoism, etc... The ones that aren't really religions.

The only ones come from Asia? What about all the peaceful ones that came out of the Americas? Such the Aztecs might have sacrificed people but for the most part there were no wars internally or between nations, and the lack of civil war is what allowed those civilizations like the Maya to advance to the level that they did. The indians in what is now the United States also were very peaceful, and had their own religions, and worshipped many deities.

[Neo]

The only ones come from Asia? What about all the peaceful ones that came out of the Americas? Such the Aztecs might have sacrificed people but for the most part there were no wars internally or between nations, and the lack of civil war is what allowed those civilizations like the Maya to advance to the level that they did. The indians in what is now the United States also were very peaceful, and had their own religions, and worshipped many deities.
Human sacrifices = not to peaceful.

And sorry, I mean religons that were still practiced today... and are technically religons. (Christianity is just a way of life... Islam is just a way of life... any religon is a "Way of life" =P)

Yes there are still indians around in the us, but you can't like join thier belief like you could for Buddhism or some such.

And indians fought each other often, O_o

-Neo

[Leosam096]

So They are in fact 2 seperate Beings? No, they are both the same. the Trinity means that its three persons in One Godhead which means that there are three persons in one being.

and what i meant was the word Trinity was not stated but pointed out in Luke 3:21-22

21When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened 22and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."

if you want more Bible verses about the Trinity theres:
-Matt. 28:18, Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
-1 Cor. 12:4-6, Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.

and etc.

if you want to know more about it heres the links
What is the Trinity? (http://www.carm.org/doctrine/whatisthetrinity.htm),
Response to the criticism "What is Trinity? (http://www.carm.org/doctrine/trin_against.htm)

EDIT:
I will learn to change my attitude towards you, B1x, and I am sorry. So i shall hold you truly with my highest respect... i hope you would understand what i mean.

[B1x]

I will learn to change my attitude towards you, B1x, and I am sorry. So i shall hold you truly with my highest respect... i hope you would understand what i mean.

I do. I feel I may have disrespected your beliefs as well and I apologize for that. Lets put this behind us, and move on.

OK now back to the Thread.

I think that it might be right they're not all that peaceful. I don't read the Koran though. so I don't know. The whole "Jihad" Bit still ,gets me though. If they're fighting a war for God, why is god devoted to peace?

Yes I do know he conducted wars in the past, but he doesnt anymore. Now its supposedly just the Demons fighting amongst them selves for the Hell of it. (pardon the pun)

Sometimes When I think of the Muslim religion, I think of Cheese...Dont ask me why...:confused:

[Kingscrab]

What about all the peaceful ones that came out of the Americas? Such the Aztecs might have sacrificed people but for the most part there were no wars internally or between nations, and the lack of civil war is what allowed those civilizations like the Maya to advance to the level that they did. Dude, seriously? The Aztecs were extremely bloody. Where the hell do you think they got the majority of those sacrifices? From neighboring conquered tribes. ie: there was plenty of war and destruction to go around. It was part of their culture and unless I'm wrong, it was essentially assumed that if you were captured in battle your heart would end up on an altar at one point or another.

The indians in what is now the United States also were very peaceful, and had their own religions, and worshipped many deities. That's a pretty big generalization. I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure there were plenty of warlike tribes roaming around looking for asses to kick...

[Leosam096]

That's a pretty big generalization. I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure there were plenty of warlike tribes roaming around looking for asses to kick...
Brilliant Deduction. :)
Thats Kingscrab talking, "Cow Bell Up! FOO!"

Yeah the indians were really peaceful people, during those days. But I'm wondering what happened Modern America now?

[Kingscrab]

Brilliant Deduction. :)
Thats Kingscrab talking, "Cow Bell Up! FOO!"

Yeah the indians were really peaceful people, during those days. But I'm wondering what happened Modern America now? Call me crazy but you just confused me with this post. WTF are you talking about here??

[ChaosZon]

When I hear "Islam" I think one thing, and one thing only:

By order of the prophet
We ban that boogie sound
Degenerate the faithful
With that crazy casbah sound
But the bedouin they brought out
The electric camel drum
The local guitar picker
Got his guitar picking thumb
As soon as the shareef
Had cleared the square
They began to wail

The shareef dont like it
Rockin the casbah
Rock the casbah
The shareef dont like it
Rockin the casbah
Rock the casbah