Star Craft Balance Issues

[B.A.Baracus]

Ok, we all know Star Craft and its expansion Brood War are renown for being very equal in terms of race balance. However I personally think there are some balance issues. So I made this thread so that we can debate whether or not there are issues. And how these issues could be resolved.
Ill get things rolling with a few things I’ve noticed.

First, I think that the Corsair kind of made the Scout obsolete, let me explain. I was under the impression that a Scouts main role was anti-air defense, while Scouts can attack ground they are not much of a threat to ground units. They are very expensive and do little damage to ground units, I really don’t even get worried when I see them unless they are in huge numbers. Scouts are really only good against capital ships. Also we all know Toss are not lacking in the ground damage area, I can justify this statement in one word: Reaver.

So they are supposed to be a fast way to eliminate air threats right, but the Corsair far out-classes them in this respect. Corsairs are cheaper, faster(until the Scout gets upgraded) and they have a special ability, AND they do splash damage! Yeah Scouts can attack air and ground but 2 Hydras can take one down. I think a special ability would perk the Scout right up! How about this, an attack similar to Yamato Cannon, it can only target ground targets and a Scout must sacrifice all his shields to perform this attack. The attack gets no upgrade bonuses and will do damage equal to the total shield points lost, the Scout must have at least 10 shield points to perform this though. Y’all like that huh?

And second the Zerg’s lack of special abilities. The Zerg have 2 spell casters, WTF?!? I think instead of a new spell caster the Queen and Defiler should each get a new ability, but I don’t have any ideas yet.

I also think Zerg's early ground defense is slightly out classed. I would suggest Zerg gets an upgrade like: all Zerg ground units that are standing or burrowed on friendly or enemy creep heal twice as fast.

Alright, Spartan 2 said that Zerg defense is fine the way it is, and I realized that I gave no reasons for why I thought it was a bit lacking, so here it goes. But I only think their early ground D is lacking, and not their air.

-Zerg cant utilize chokes as easily as Terran and Toss can because they can only build on the creep.

-Sunkens pack a punch but they are very bad against heavy numbers of small infantry, and Lurkers just don’t come early enough.

-I believe Terran have an unfair defensive advantage because they posses No melee units, yes NONE.
The Fire Bat still has a range of 2, so while you launch a ground assault at Terran they just stand there with all their ranged units and clobber you until you can close the gap, and when you do get close those Battys do very nicely against melee fighters.

-Zerg ground D needs the most unit support of any race.

-Last, Zerg has a lot of trouble against early Siege-Tanks supported by M&M. Siege-Tanks can blast Lurkers before they get close enough and when the Lurks do burrow a quick Scanner Sweep will revile them. Even if you do manage to fend off this attack you will not have done with out taking heavy casualties.

-Don’t even get me started on Photon Cannon and Bunker rushes.:mad2:

I know Terran is the "defence" race but I think
their defense is a little too good against Zerg, if Terran turtles early and the turtler is good, Zerg aint getting in till they get high in the tech tree.


I will add more if I think of anything.

Don’t be afraid to bring up anything that you think is unbalanced, units buildings what ever.:D
One last thing, to all the other Zerg players out there- USE YOUR QUEENS!!

[Spartan-II]

Zerg doesn't need to upgrade their defenses. They have massive amounds of cheap, effective units. Terrans also have two spellcasters. Medic, and Sci Vessel, and I don't think Terrans need more. (I left Ghost out because those are special abilities.)

[B.A.Baracus]

they also have the ghost, and half thier units have speacal abilities.
Also zerg have trouble with early M&M backed by tanks.
AND zerg cant utalize choke points as easily as Terran and Toss
Wow you own in halo.

[Glad_2_bestoned]

i don't agree with your corsair theory though.. the corsair may be one of the most important anti-air units for protoss.. but they aren't good against bcs or carriers.. sure they splash but they do little damadge and it'll take forever to destroy a fleet even with 20 of them... Thats where the scouts come in place.

[B.A.Baracus]

good point, but for thier cost I think Scouts need to have more power agianst ground enemies. something anything to make them worth their cost.

[SuiCidAl-KiSmEt]

• Scouts are much more stronger than Corsairs. Scouts can kill Guardians, Devourers, Carriers, and Battlecruisers faster. Corsairs can help against a tight formation of units.
• Reavers are also many of the other strong units the Protoss have. Besides, the Siege Tanks [range and power] a lone can kill a large amount of Reavers.
• The Scout having an ability might be a good idea.
• The Zerg relay on vast numbers, not my magic and spells.
• That'll be a cool idea.
• Sunkens are good for Protoss players, and for Terran players early in the game. Zerg players really need to learn to use mobile units.
• Hatcherys is something that needs to be build more than once. You could place a Hatchery near a choke point.
• I don't know, I could build some hydras and lurker fast enough.
• Ya, I agree, a strong Terran defense can last for a long time. Just need to be smart and not just rush your units into one.
• Bunkers? Need to jam 4 marines in there.
• Ya, I keep playing someone that does that when I'm Zerg. I played against some comps a while ago, I learned you can make Guardians fast enough before the computer can send the first wave at you.
• Those tatics don't work on me anymore, like Zergling rushes, there only good against noobs.
• When a Zerg player swarms, they do heavy damage though.

Of course each unit and race has their disavantages, but not just the Zerg.
http://www.battle.net/scc/zerg/zvt.shtml

[B.A.Baracus]

Jeeze its about time some one posts on my thread:concern: Anyway thanks for you input, I dont have time now but Ill argue with you later:) But I agree with most of what you said.

[SuiCidAl-KiSmEt]

If it makes you feel any better, this video mostly shows Zerg players winning-by Pros ;)
Starcraft July Highlights (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4293671168984783888&q=StarCraft&pl=true)

[Ahzz]

nah, corsairs didn't take scouts out completely.
There is nothing better as a good counter vs carriers than scouts. The scouts may be slower than corsair, but they do alot more damage which is nice on a early harass vs z. Also, it forces them to make really fast hydras (lose some econ) or/and make a spore colony to two places because even though it doesn't do much damage to drones, it still does some.. And it may get even 3-4 drones before you get any antiair.

And second the Zerg’s lack of special abilities. The Zerg have 2 spell casters, WTF?!? I think instead of a new spell caster the Queen and Defiler should each get a new ability, but I don’t have any ideas yet.

yeeeess??? Toss has 3. Not including corsair, because in that case burrow would be one too kinda. Terran has... 3. Whats the problem. And I thought the thread was about balance issues, not your opinions.

I also think Zerg's early ground defense is slightly out classed. I would suggest Zerg gets an upgrade like: all Zerg ground units that are standing or burrowed on friendly or enemy creep heal twice as fast.

What'd be the point in that? it'd make the whole game imbalanced, and everypro would just do tons of creep and even hatchery/ sunk offense if that'd be the case. It's perfectly balanced

Alright, Spartan 2 said that Zerg defense is fine the way it is, and I realized that I gave no reasons for why I thought it was a bit lacking, so here it goes. But I only think their early ground D is lacking, and not their air.
and just how is that? IMO it's pretty stupid go say stuff if you can't explain or prove it.
vs Terran and protoss they have lings if needed. True, if the lings don't have speed they're pretty weak but it doesn't cost that much or anything, really.

-Zerg cant utilize chokes as easily as Terran and Toss can because they can only build on the creep.

-Sunkens pack a punch but they are very bad against heavy numbers of small infantry, and Lurkers just don’t come early enough.
1. That is rarely needed. Normally a z should be able to keep winning against them in battles, or atleast make somewhat a draw in them, some fancy stuff like cliff or choke thingies are rarely needed. Or if needed, they can just build another hatch over there to a better place. Most balanced, good maps have a choke which you can protect by your expansion.

2. Um.. If they make a heavy amount of infantry, you make a heavy amount of sunks + some lings, you don't even need many. 6 sunks holds just about any infantry, 3-4 sunks wins over a group of m&m, and if it takes more, you already have lurk or some other counter

-I believe Terran have an unfair defensive advantage because they posses No melee units, yes NONE.
The Fire Bat still has a range of 2, so while you launch a ground assault at Terran they just stand there with all their ranged units and clobber you until you can close the gap, and when you do get close those Battys do very nicely against melee fighters.
ummm? what are you talking about? obviously, you don't micro your army or use the wrong counters. if you flank and micro properly, it's not unfair.

-Zerg ground D needs the most unit support of any race.

-Last, Zerg has a lot of trouble against early Siege-Tanks supported by M&M. Siege-Tanks can blast Lurkers before they get close enough and when the Lurks do burrow a quick Scanner Sweep will revile them. Even if you do manage to fend off this attack you will not have done with out taking heavy casualties.

1. Yes? How is that imbalanced?

2. The zerg doesn't have trouble against early tank/m&m, you just either make wrong units or build orders or micro it just wrong. If you do it right, z doesn't have any troubles, unless the T is willing to bet his whole game on winning like that.
Heavy casualitites only happen if you don't micro it right. If you micro it right, it should be about even or so.

[MidnightGladius]

Yep, listen to Ahzz. He's only the best Finnish SC player on PGT :P

Pretty much all of what you said is essentially related to your playing style, not the actual game itself. Something is useless only if you give it no use.

Besides, one must remember that DS with ultra/lurker/ling is still the ultimate ground killing machine of all three races. Though well-microed zeal/arch/HT/DT can beat it head-on, the sheer destructive power and speed (it's very easy to kill an entire expansion in about 5 or 6 seconds) outclasses that.

[Alexisonfire]

ahzzy is very sexxy listen to him. people say hes like a young brad pitt now thats hawt :o

[U-238]

Hey GrassDragon. Is there anyway you can get a paticular person around here *coughs*AlexisonFire(for now)*coughs* banned for repeated spamming?

[Ahzz]

pah. How does that annoy you exactly? If I whined every single person when they spam, there'd be atleast 3 people banned all the time :/.

[U-238]

Well obviousley you didn't see his rather large spamming spree yesterday.

[Alexisonfire]

2 messages r large? its not me... its just the joyful way i act and others have some crazy issue with it so they blow it was out of portition to name one of these people u-238

[U-238]

You never give up... ...Do you?

[MidnightGladius]

Pardon my interruption, but do any of us really need him to answer that question?

[Alexisonfire]

(insert annoying come back were i proclaim u as a communist and something about the 1st amendment)

[Ahzz]

You always make my day jays. :D

[Alexisonfire]

c some buddy loves me

[B.A.Baracus]

Were was I when all this happend??:P

Yeah you make some good points Ahzz, I guess Im more of a harrasment player then all out assault. I should work on my agressiveness with Zerg.

Alex if your a man why do you say everyone is sexy?

[Alexisonfire]

i don't say everyone is sexxy... when did i say u were sexxy? also sexy? comon its sexxy with 2 x's which means its 2 times the sexy and in cases such as ahzz or middy thats a whole lot of sexxy

[MidnightGladius]

It's a long-standing thing from when we played SC together. I'm not sure how it started, but it's stuck all this time. Meh.

[SuicideCommando]

@ threadstarter

Thats bullshit, starcraft doesn't have balance issues. It would have if blizzard would turn into complete dolts tomorrow and implement all the stuff you posted.

[B.A.Baracus]

Oww you hurt my feelings. So you are saying SC has NO balence issues at all, thats a bold statement.

[SuicideCommando]

Oww, your feelings doesn't consern this thread. Just look at a small fragment of the crap you posted:

I was under the impression that a Scouts main role was anti-air defense
Well, DUUHH.


So they are supposed to be a fast way to eliminate air threats right, but the Corsair far out-classes them in this respect. Corsairs are cheaper, faster(until the Scout gets upgraded) and they have a special ability, AND they do splash damage!

Have you EVER even tried to fight corsairs with scouts? A scout outclasses a corsair in every single aspect exept buildtime and cost. Get your shit right before you make any more dumb threads.

two hydras kill a scout, buuhuu
Who the hell would try to fight hydras with scouts?

[B.A.Baracus]

Did you just start playing yesterday? Scouts are only stronger 1 on 1. There is also a thing called micro.

[Alexisonfire]

i can't quite rmeember cuz its been a few months since i was really into sc but i think all the balance issue (which r very very small) involve ultras/cracklings vs toss (i think toss gets the short end of the stick here) which toying with would screw up the balance of that combination vs terran but i can't really remember so what i said could be crap i just made up after a nap i took

screw it i'll stick to what i normally do, i'm rite and i'll argue it just to piss off others

[SuicideCommando]

Did you just start playing yesterday? Scouts are only stronger 1 on 1. There is also a thing called micro.Scouts are stronger, period.

ultras/cracklings vs tossDing ding ding, NO. DT + archons pwn them. Oh and ofcourse ANY air unit.

Dont you guys get it? Starcraft DOESN'T have balance issues.

[B.A.Baracus]

i can't quite rmeember cuz its been a few months since i was really into sc but i think all the balance issue (which r very very small) involve ultras/cracklings vs toss (i think toss gets the short end of the stick here) which toying with would screw up the balance of that combination vs terran but i can't really remember so what i said could be crap i just made up after a nap i took

screw it i'll stick to what i normally do, i'm rite and i'll argue it just to piss off others
Now I can see why people like you :)
Your welcome to argue on my thread any time:)

Ovies and Queens make short work of DTs, or just lings. And upgraded ultras wup archons.

[MidnightGladius]

In over four years of playing (2 of them as P), I have never seen or heard of a situation in a PvP where there were sair vs scout battles. Carrier/sair has always been a strat, and scout/goon is emerging as feasible, but never pure sair vs. pure scout.

Doesn't that kind of render that segment of the argument worthless?

[Alexisonfire]

don't use scouts their too expensive and there are so many things they sux vs. if u really must use scouts maybe vs bc's, carriers, or maybe 1 to harass ovies and still be able to harass drones (99% of sc players prefer sairs for that ovie 1 cuz u won't get drones most likly if zerg knows what he doing and scouts r slow for scouting)

[B.A.Baracus]

don't use scouts their too expensive and there are so many things they sux vs. if u really must use scouts maybe vs bc's, carriers, or maybe 1 to harass ovies and still be able to harass drones (99% of sc players prefer sairs for that ovie 1 cuz u won't get drones most likly if zerg knows what he doing and scouts r slow for scouting)
Thats what Im saying, Scouts are not useless but they are defenently not worth their cost, sairs are much better at simple things like ovy harrasment. Scouts are only good against capital ships, they are like scourges but triple the cost.

[MidnightGladius]

The only difference is that sairs>scourge, but sairs are most definitely not better than scouts.

[Alexisonfire]

when does sair or scouts have anything to do with pvp? i'm bored ... middy i love u!

[MidnightGladius]

when does sair or scouts have anything to do with pvp?

In over four years of playing (2 of them as P), I have never seen or heard of a situation in a PvP where there were sair vs scout battles. Carrier/sair has always been a strat, and scout/goon is emerging as feasible, but never pure sair vs. pure scout.

Doesn't that kind of render that segment of the argument worthless?

/shrugs

[Alexisonfire]

lol =) anyways end this, sairs only come up in pvz and r used for early scout/harass or the sair/reaver strat. all sairs do is create this strat for toss which is an extremly hard strat to pull off and now i completely forgot what this topic was about....

[B.A.Baracus]

Blah!!!

[Alexisonfire]

shut up with ur blah's and by the way mr.t sucks Jesus could kick his ass in a fight

[B.A.Baracus]

Arrg! What is your obssesion with me?
Screw you guys, Im going home:P

[Alexisonfire]

most of the other idoits i enjoyed arguing with have disappeared (tho i just called holocaust hitler in a private msg)

[B.A.Baracus]

You make a thread and Ill come argue on it.

Dave tha dope fiend shootin dope who dont know the meaning of water nor soap :)

[Holocaust]

most of the other idoits i enjoyed arguing with have disappeared (tho i just called holocaust hitler in a private msg)

I REALLY enjoy being called that by someone that knows everything like you, Alex

For the Zerg D, I do think zerg are slightly disadvantaged in the early stages of the game defensivly speaking. I see Zerg as using more of an offensive race.

[Alexisonfire]

i think i'v made a total of 2 threads in 1 and a half years and i don't plan on making more... y is this? i don't ask stupid questions i just reply to others stupid questions in an annoying fashion in which a long and meaningless convo happens were that stupid person becomes annoyed and therefore hates me. all of this then provides me with some entertainment and ahzz seems to enjoy it too

I REALLY enjoy being called that by someone that knows everything like you, Alex :) glad to c holo u finally admit that i'm rite, i accept ur apology

[GrassDragon]

Chill guys. No more Hitler name calling.