Nerf shamans

[kongurous]

Perhaps an old topic, but I don't care. Nerf shamans.

Why? Because even a poorly built shaman with a monkey at the keyboard could take just about anything with minimum effort. They've got all sorts of totems, they have no real weaknesses, and they have their own damn self-rez. Like you need two rez spells. They have more resurrection spells than any other class in the game!

And shocks. I hate shocks. Shocks are a paladin's worst nightmare. Why? If you're hit with a shock while casting, you stop casting and can't cast from that school of magic for like 6 seconds. The problem? Paladins only have one school of magic. There goes our entire advantage, then we get chain-lightning and elemental mastery owned or whatever else the shaman has at his disposal.

The only thing I hate fighting more than Warlocks is a Shaman simply because Blizzard freakin tailors to them, and gives them all sorts of crap.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2378850695329737917&q=shaman&pl=true

Look at that video. That shaman right there easily mows through like 6 lvl 60s and doesn't even lose a significant amount of health. The 60s he's taking on also seem to be well-equipped to deal with most threats, and still this guy destroys them all.

No class should be able to do that against a comparable leveled, and well equipped, players. I dare any of you to find some other class that can display such gross power... and isn't a warlock. Go on, do it.

[xodkrm]

I couldn't see very well in that video, but that Shaman must have at least full tier 2's.
Why? Just look at the numbers, lol.
I've never thought of shammies as overpowered.
They have a small mana pool, and alot of their spells burn their mana.

In that form, you could say any class is overpowered.
eg, hunters.
They can feign death, lay down a frost trap. Aimed shot can 1-2 hit most cloth. They have 10 slowing / freezing / stat reducing shots and spells. They are extreamly annoying, and are great kiters.

I have never played as a shaman, but seeing them in end game instances and such, I dont think they need a major nerf. From my point of view, every class has weakness / strengths that make them special - thats what makes groups and raids possible.

[kongurous]

That shaman was decked out in things that increased his crit chance, yes, but still... look at the numbers, like you said. No paladin could mow through people like that. Hell, no rogue could do it unless that rogue happened to have a nice healer or a crapload of potions. This guy did it alone. Without losing any considerable amount of health. I've fought enough things to know a good shaman will kill anyone. I've also fought enough things to know a good paladin is at a disadvantage, at least, against every class that can COMPLETELY STOP IT'S CASTING, and anyone who pays attention to my posts knows I play a paladin and take great pride in it.

[xodkrm]

Yeah, well if Paladins could heal them selves without losing any casting time, they would be impossibly to take down. Pallys do a significant amount of damage - my rogue with full tier 1 gets literaly owned by paladins witout even tier 0. Pallys also have the skill that makes them invulneralbe for 6 secs(Kinda like the Mage's ice block, except better). Thats enough time to heal themselves back up.

That video makes me wanna re-roll a Shammy, haha.
Do you know what the crazy shaman on that video's build is?

[kongurous]

Paladins have crap for DPS, you must suck as a rogue :P

A good paladin can eat a rogue for breakfast, but this isn't about rogues, this is about shamans and their incredible potential to nuke and deal out damage, and apparently take it. It annoys me to no end how easily they can rip anyone apart, and their Alliance "counter part" barely suffices in either roll as healer or tank.

[Forsaken_One]

Wow...

Just wow...

I haven't played WoW seriously enough to see how amazinf Shamans are. I really don't care if it seems imbalanced, the player that was in control, did a very good job.

But, I can see why you feel they should be nerfed, that Shaman mowed down a lot of players.

[Aqo]

Shamans are overpowered, yes, but don't trust movies like that. They show you rare event that happened to one player once in over a year out of millions of players - that's not your average shaman.
There's also movies showing mages wtfpwning others people, but we still all know for a fact that a mage is a vender to its allies and a free honor kill to its enemies. So, once again, don't take movies too seriously. They're for entertainment, not display of facts.

[killer-penguin]

Jesus cry more.

No seriously.

Shamans have an advantage in pvp but thats mainly because the paladin is too busy going NERF SHAMANS to actually PLAY the game. But I will say this, I don't know how many horde I have met who haven't wished that they could have just ONE of the blessings that paladins take for granted in the game. Totems are a joke, such a waste of mana when you have to place them EVERY minute and they really are a pain in the ass for just about anything you can imagine. The only place we've really found any true use for totems where alliance may have had a bit more trouble is on the goblins who throw the dynamite in BWL, there we are able to drop a 'totem wall' that allows us to ignore the goblins for about a MINUTE until the totems despawn.

Seriously, paladins have a survivability that shamans don't and while shamans do have their advantages (ghost wolf in WSG, windfury etc) paladins have some nice ass talents off their own. Eye for an eye, the hammer of justice or w/e it's called and some other abilities. There are ways to get around earthshock (which by the way is the ONLY shock that can cause you to stop casting) start casting and then IMMEDIATELY cancel the spell and the shaman will shock you, then after he does that you can cast again.

I dunno why but this really annoys me, as a mage I have a tough time killing shamans but it is doable it just takes a while, about as long or longer than it does to kill a pally, you just have to play intelligently.

[kongurous]

It's hard to avoid an insta-cast shock. Blessings also don't even last that long, even Greater Blessings only last 15 minutes compared to other buffs given to priests and druids. Yes, Pallies blessings, but do blessings heal you? Do blessings hold you in place while you get ranged to death? Do blessings have a fire AoE? No. No Blessing does any of that, and we don't even have that many blessings.

[Incantrix]

These aren't really reasons to buff shamans, I do think shamans are crazy powerful in pvp (I'd just rather focus on crying "nerf warlocks"). I just would like to point out some... opposing points.

1. Palys are better than shamans in PvE, shamans are better than palys in PvP. Palys got their talent review/buff, now whether it was good enough doesn't matter. Shamans still suck in PvE, or rather, really aren't worth it unless you have no choice. My favorite group in a 5-man is mage, lock, priest, warrior, rogue or hunter, or maybe druid. Shaman has little place in that. Can't heal enough to replace priest, can't tank with mail, can't dps enough to replace anyone else. That's why they're getting a talent review patch after next.

2. The caster classes in that vid are stupid to let him get close enough to hit them time after time. Also, the ones he killed in one "hit" just have crappy stamina (yes, i'd die in one hit too, but thats because i'm still working on getting more stamina).

3. That shaman really doesn't have that much health. A mage with +dmg gear equivalent in lvl to what he has should be able to 2- or 3-shot him.

4. That two-handed weapon he was using is currently the best hammer in the game, possibly the best 2-handed weapon, since its legendary and all...

5. The swing cooldown on that weap is like 3 seconds. Notice the few people he didn't one-shot, he had to run around them for about 3 seconds before hitting them again, unless he used a shock to finish them. The three different damage numbers appearing are due to a proc that only occasionally happens, he's just showing every time it does happen.

6. Those damage number really aren't all that impressive. The only exceptionable thing about them is that they are white and not yellow. I've seen a number of videos of casters doing much much more damage...

A shaman (with a totally different spec and equip) doing 2k dmg to three targets simultaniously with chain lightning. A mage criting at will (special talent) for 2k damage. A screenshot of a mage who managed to do 6k damage with a single pyroblast crit in a BG (warrior put on full fire resist gear after that =/). Finally a warlock critting a soulfire on a seduced enemy in AB for 8k damage (also doing other crazy damage, such as 1k-2k immolate crits).

I've also heard of (haven't looked for or seen vids of though) fury warriors doing around 2k damage with a single hit without fancy windfury procs or stormstrikes. A shaman HAS to use windfury and stormstrike to match those numbers, and really it only matches cause the proc and talent (31 point by the way) allows him about 3 attacks in one "hit" -- with the best weapon in the game. Finally, with that spec, I severally doubt whether his guild really allows him on high-end raids anymore. And really all he could do in a 5-man dungeon is pull aggro and drain the healer's mana healing a mail-wearer.

[killer-penguin]

It's hard to avoid an insta-cast shock. Blessings also don't even last that long, even Greater Blessings only last 15 minutes compared to other buffs given to priests and druids. Yes, Pallies blessings, but do blessings heal you? Do blessings hold you in place while you get ranged to death? Do blessings have a fire AoE? No. No Blessing does any of that, and we don't even have that many blessings.

have you ever seen a shaman use a healing wave totem? Because I know I haven't. Mana tide occaisionally but for the most part its goa, soe, ef, or fire resistance totems that we see time and time again. Although lately the aggro reducing totem has been key. Still in pve I'd take a blessing of kings or one of the other blessings any day.

[Incantrix]

It's hard to avoid an insta-cast shock. Blessings also don't even last that long, even Greater Blessings only last 15 minutes compared to other buffs given to priests and druids. Yes, Pallies blessings, but do blessings heal you? Do blessings hold you in place while you get ranged to death? Do blessings have a fire AoE? No. No Blessing does any of that, and we don't even have that many blessings.

Man, that fire aoe totem sucks! The fire nova one is nice enough i suppose, but its basically a one shot per battle thingy, then that scorching or whatever totem is basically like a minor DoT, it really can't kill you unless you're already dead. Also, avoiding a shock is really just a matter of mindset. Earthshock isn't on such a long timer than a shaman won't be watching for the key moment when he needs to use it, unlike counterspell for mages, which is on a 30-sec timer, and so we have to be ready at a moments notices to use it. Just start a spell, then move. Against a shaman, that will nearly always work. Also, don't heal when you HAVE to, heal when you're still out of danger, so you can afford the time to fake-heal.

I dueled a shaman twice the other day. Got schooled horribly the first time. He earthshocked my frost tree (i'm a frost mage) twice. TWICE! My primary source of damage was useless for a total of 20 seconds in that fight. Basically i ran around in circles and cast scorch at him, which of course was absorbed by his grounding totem. I even missed my counterspell, so it was down when he healed himself up to full.

Second time, I pwned him. Buffed myself with all those useless buffs the mage class has. Frost nova, cone of cold. fake casted a scorch, he earthshocked. Frostbolted him. Also, ran around wanding his totems while he was trying to catch me. Then whe he started healing, counterspelled, and burned him down. Sure his gear wasn't awesome, and he was prolly more specced for raiding, but he had a number of tier 1 epics, and I am also specced for raiding, don't even have the talent that makes cone of cold do enough damage to be worth it.

[kongurous]

Ya'll do realize I made this thread with no conviction in my cause at all, right? I don't lose to shamans that much, actually... only when I'm not paying attention, or they hit me with an elemental mastery chain lightning as I'm fighting... say... a rogue or something.

[Incantrix]

=(

Sarcasm > Me.

[KidSephy]

I'm trying to learn everything I can about the different classes again, so bear with me :)

I understand why some believe Shaman's need to be nerfed- the damage and annoyance factor by any one given Shaman that's well-equipped and skilled up correctly is probably amazing. From what I can tell, they more or less can avoid taking damage :)

But why was Warlock mentioned earlier? Why are they a class that needs to be nerfed?

See, I'm trying to determine whether or not to be Mage over Warlock- I want the most powerful of the two for both Raids and PvE instanced dungeons.

Let me know.



-KS

[killer-penguin]

I'm trying to learn everything I can about the different classes again, so bear with me :)

I understand why some believe Shaman's need to be nerfed- the damage and annoyance factor by any one given Shaman that's well-equipped and skilled up correctly is probably amazing. From what I can tell, they more or less can avoid taking damage :)

But why was Warlock mentioned earlier? Why are they a class that needs to be nerfed?

See, I'm trying to determine whether or not to be Mage over Warlock- I want the most powerful of the two for both Raids and PvE instanced dungeons.

Let me know.



-KS

If you want the more 'powerful' of the two you'll end up picking a mage just because they see more pretty numbers. However as far as use goes, a warlock is definately more useful, and there are far more mages than warlocks for pve content. (or pvp for that matter) It will probably be a bit easier to get into an endgame guild as a lock seeing as there is usually a minority of them on any server. Whereas mages are fucking everywhere. Plus a warlock is one of the easiest classes to level and a good warlock is ALWAYS in demand (and you can't argue with a free mount either)

[Incantrix]

Agreed. Also, if you were to do pvp, warlocks pwn. Its that simple. Oh sure, if your gear is green, and you're up against someone in epics, you're prolly gonna die, and if you have no skill, you're prolly gonna die. But by lvl 60 you should know enough to be unstoppable in a 1v1. Sure you might be beat by 3 ppl jumping you at the same time...

[KidSephy]

What do Warlocks do that just own? What combos of spells? Do they summon shit? What do those summons do? Etc etc.

Please don't use abbrv. yet ^.^ I'm still working on learning those ;)



-KS

[killer-penguin]

What do Warlocks do that just own? What combos of spells? Do they summon shit? What do those summons do? Etc etc.

Please don't use abbrv. yet ^.^ I'm still working on learning those ;)



-KS

It really depends on a build. WIth my warlock I was all about curse of exhaustion and amplify curse on melee classes (im a big fan of amplify although its rarely ever used) the reason being that it basically stops a melee class in its tracks. However warlocks are so amazing because you can dot someone and then just fear em around like its going out of style while you wail on em with ranged attacks/wands etc. Then if they finally start to counter you just deathcoil (a fear that is both impossible to avoid and that cannot be broken...) and own em again. Warlocks in a 1v1 duel have an amazing amount of weapons at their disposal.

[Incantrix]

Yeah, I think its mostly just the number of tools they have. For example. A warlock with their succubus out (warlocks can have a demon pet) has about 3 different ways of CC (crowd control, a way of making a person useless for a time). Whereas mages can just use polymorph and turn a person into a sheep, because of diminishing returns, they can only do that up to 3 times to the same person. Warlocks have their Fear spell, plus deathcoil, which you can't counter in any way, then they have a succubus's seduce. Each method of CC is on its own diminishing return "timer" so to speak. So a warlock can fear 3 times, then fear is useless, then deathcoil 3 times (though its a long cooldown so thats unlikely), then seduce 3 times. Moreover, a warlock could also, have their succubus seduce someone, while they fear someone else at the same time, and kill that feared person. Finally, since they have a lifetap spell that can turn health into mana, they generally stack items that increase their health a lot, so that a normal warlock often has about the same amount of health as a warrior, sometimes more, depending on gear.

You might see the abbreviation DoT a lot. DoT = Damage over Time spell, like curse of agony. Instant cast, or short casting time, and it slowly hurts the person over like 30 seconds or so. Get enough different DoTs on a person, and they'll die after 30 seconds without a heal. So a warlock can sometimes just go around putting like 3 DoTs on everyone in range, then, as long as he lives for more than 30 seconds, he wins. In fact, even if he dies, the other person often dies anyway.

[xodkrm]

So...does anyone know what spec the shammy is on that video?

[Incantrix]

Guessing 31 points in enhancement, at least at the end, for stormstrike. The rest, don't know, could be elemental, could be restoration, but probably elemental.

[kongurous]

So...does anyone know what spec the shammy is on that video?

There was a thread about it on the WoW forums. I don't know the link, though.

But why was Warlock mentioned earlier? Why are they a class that needs to be nerfed?

Warlocks are quite possibly the cheapest class of all time. They have mad DPS, and I mean MAD DPS, two fear spells, earning the name of "chain-fear", and once they have you feared... they hit you as many DPS spells as possible(16 is the maximum, and I've had that full more than once)and you pretty much take 1000+ damage each second. If you know how to fight warlocks, then more power to ya, but I take fighting two rogues and a shaman over fighting a warlock.