Tavern Hero Usage

[Prozerran]

Pick any of your Favorite combinations of one Race Hero (i.e. Paladin) and one Tavern Hero and explain how you use this combination of Heroes including but not limited to:

Skill Choices for each Hero
Tactics for using those Skills in battle
What non-hero spells or abilities might you need to execute the Tactic
Which one will you choose first
If you use a third hero with this combination, what other Race Hero or Tavern Hero would you choose and list the skill choices for them?
If you don't want to use a Race Hero, tell us what Tavern Heroes you would use.The idea is to get a feel for Tavern Hero usage for each race. Certainly not all Tavern Heroes might be included, but I'd like to see just what you all can come up with that's beyond the cookie. The more original and unique the better. Don't be afraid to throw down an experiment along with a Replay.

[whoman_human]

First I take the Mountainking and later on the Pandaren brewmaster.
My first skill is Thunderclap and when I have 5 footmen I start creeping. My next skill is Bash because when I creep hard I won't have enough mana and Bash doesn't cost any..
The next skill is Thunderclap again and after that maybe Stormbolt or Bash again...
When I've teched to tier2 I get the Pandaren Brewmaster. His first skill is Breath of fire, then either Bash or drunken haze (wich one is better?) then I take Bof again and so on. The Heros are the Tanks in this tactic. I support them with some priests, Knights, sorcerreses and gryphons and mortars. Maybe some riflemen. It's pretty effective against ghouls, archers or flying units(gryphons+bof).
Any ideas how to make this strategie more effective?:concern:

Edit: Sometimes I take the pally for the healing of the heros.

[Sid]

I, as Orc start off with Dark Ranger - Dark Arrows and go creeping with a couple of Grunts, next would be Race Hero - Shadow Hunter with Serpant Ward, As Dark Ranger levels up, I take Silence and Arrow Combos and for SH, I take Hex and Serpant Ward... If I decide to mass Taurens or Raiders, I take third Far Seer, If I choose to Mass Casters, then... I take Taurn Chieftain and go with Endurance Aura first, followed by Shockwave!

[RedRagToAnOrc]

Pick any of your Favorite combinations of one Race Hero (i.e. Paladin) and one Tavern Hero and explain how you use this combination of Heroes including but not limited to:

Skill Choices for each Hero
Tactics for using those Skills in battle
What non-hero spells or abilities might you need to execute the Tactic
Which one will you choose first
If you use a third hero with this combination, what other Race Hero or Tavern Hero would you choose and list the skill choices for them?
If you don't want to use a Race Hero, tell us what Tavern Heroes you would use.The idea is to get a feel for Tavern Hero usage for each race. Certainly not all Tavern Heroes might be included, but I'd like to see just what you all can come up with that's beyond the cookie. The more original and unique the better. Don't be afraid to throw down an experiment along with a Replay.

Orc - Far Seer/Naga Sea Witch. This is my main hero combo against Night-Elf and Human, but not for Undead where I go TC second for Stomp (easy Fiend/Hero kills) and not for Orc (when I go FL second for Tier 2 push).

Skill choices - Wolves/Lightning/Wolves/Lightning/Wolves/Ulti/Lightning/Sight x3 for the Far Seer and Arrows/Lightning/Arrows/Lightning etc. etc. for NSW.

Tactics for these skills in battle - Focus fire low HP units with Dust against Night-Elf and preferably some Raiders so I can get the NSW in front of said unit and slow it down as much as I so wish. Naga with Boots of Speed is actually really funny. Wolves and Arrows when focus firing Archers is deadly, especially when they can't hide. Make sure that Wisps aren't going to get your Wolves, take out as many Archers as you can and then tower push with Demolishers to take down Winds.

Other skills - Raiders are very useful for Nets to trap about 4 or 5 units and then focus fire them down. Shamen can also work early Tier 2 in my experience of things (remember that FS/NSW fast tech to Raiders/Shamen strat I came up with? It still works for me!) as Purge and Arrows slows a hero almost to a halt, allowing you to surround and/or get yourself into position for another slow.

[thefazant]

i never use tavern heroes

[cole]

i never use tavern heroes

lol? You must not play orc or ne then at all. Even HU/ud benefits strongly from tavern heros.

DL Panda vs orc: Sleep/aura/swarm/swarm for the dl and the panda goes BOF/haze/BOF/Passive ability/BOF/ult etc etc. The idea is to use this vs orcs typical "mass air" strat. Sleep is used early game for creeping/and picking off units and heros when viable while swarm+bof/haze makes for a strong combination vs wyverns. A invis pot or invul pot might be good for preventing hero FF if you notice hes doing it alot.

Unit combination: Ghouls tier 1 work best. I would reccomend that you focus mainly on creeping/shop killing and delaying his beastirys once he gets tier 2. You need to level DL as fast as you can for the strat to be really effectie. Tier 2 add 4-5 fiends and use the "ghoul fiend" combo along with your dl/panda to take down his wyverns fs/tc. It works surprising well.

Weaknesses: If your unable to stop orc tier 2 expo, then you have to get one up yourself and it will turn into heal scroll wars. But if you cant get one up yourself and he has one, then usually its gg for you. Heal scrolls can really make this strat cry unless you have heal scrolls to counter his aoe too TT,

[thefazant]

meh, i used to go fl sometimes in ovo, but never in other matchups, i never use them as human

[Prozerran]

Hu vs NE, I like to take the Archmage with Water Elementals and the Tinker with Factory for mass summons and casters. If I switch over to Blizzard later on, I'll get the Bloodmage with Flamestrike and Siphon Mana. This works very well with Mortars and Casters, especially if NE tries to go Bears/Dryads simply because Breakers own Bears. If I don't switch to Blizzard, I probably won't get another hero. Tactics include using the pocket factory to surround and focus heroes and units, placing the factory at the opening of your base (if you've got good base design) trapping your opponent and forcing them to TP out, and the obvious mass summoning madness that occurs around your Tier 2 Push. My favorite part of this strat comes after the game when you look at the number of units you produced and it's in the vacinity of 200 or more.

[GenocideAlive]

Undead - Pitlord + DK!! Fiends and banshees! V Orc.

I actually did this one all the time and got moderately good success with it Then I read up on a few article-type deals and changed it slightly.

Skills go: Howl/RoF/Howl/RoF/RoF/Ult and C/au/C/au/C/au/pact for DK.

For some reason, tons of Orcs still get grunt/raider/wyvs vs. fiends. So I typically make a good chunk of ghouls, a bunch of fiends, and some banshees with a mana stat. AMS the fiends, howl, and curse everything the Orc has. When ghouls die, use rods of necromancy from both heroes.

Usually they end up with another expo and like 10 wyvs, so I just web all their wyvs, back everything up and RoF the hell out of them. They can't move, but they take damage reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeal good. And, of course, if they net/surround my PL, I just AMS him 3-4 times, have him howl, and cast RoF on himself. Coil as needed.

Basically, I make sure that I always have plenty of good tower placement and that I'm fighting in such a manner that it grossly benefits me. Most Orcs will charge in headfirst anyway and then I usually come out ahead slightly. Gotta camp the towers until I get my army of choice, although the one time I lost I think my opponent may have been hacking.

I'll throw down an expo usually between tiers 1-2 and tower that thing to hell and back as well. I guess the towers are slightly cheesy, but let's face it--I'd rather be "slightly cheesy winner" than "assraped loser".

Thanks goes to I_MASS_PITLORDS, whom made unlife worth unliving.

[thefazant]

someone tried that vs me once, i just got walkers, which are a great counter vs curse howl and ams, combine those with grunt/raider/wyvern, and the ud is fucked, hes got an inferior hero, a way too low level dk cuz he got it second, no lich, rof is useless vs ensnare, and hes got a bunch of useless banchees.

[GenocideAlive]

someone tried that vs me once, i just got walkers, which are a great counter vs curse howl and ams, combine those with grunt/raider/wyvern, and the ud is fucked, hes got an inferior hero, a way too low level dk cuz he got it second, no lich, rof is useless vs ensnare, and hes got a bunch of useless banchees. Yeah, someone tried that on me once and it didn't help for shit. They attacked my expo and walkered a bunch--and despite the nice bit of damage all of his units suffered, I still lost. While he was taking down my expo, I just picked off units with my DK. He left soon after to avoid more sniping and the next time we fought was at HIS expo. He TP'd in on top of my two heroes and three aboms, and I brought in the 8 or so gargs I was hiding and raped his wyvs, then his walkers, then his expo.

Needless to say, once I got high-level heroes, it was game over. If the FS poked its head out, toast. He brought units along, DOOM --> Cripple FS = more nukeage / FF. XD

By the way, you can't dispel AMS. Noob.

[thefazant]

well, it seemed like it got dispelled too when i dispelled his curse, mustve seen wrong, but it doenst really matter, youre strat still sucks.

as ive already said, howl and curse can both be dispelled extremely easy, meaning you got a useless hero spell and got a bunch of useless banshees.
i dont even know why you suggested rof when its pretty obvious he'll have raiders so he'll just interrupt it everytime, this means youre pit lord is simply completely useless, none of his spells will do anything, youre SO much better off with a lich.
also, dk is MUCH better early game then pit lord, and because you will get him 2nd, he wont be at a high enough level, and a high lvl dk is so important for ud.

ams is nice when youre heroes are getting nuked, but stomp (or wave, imo stomp is a lot better vs ud) + cl honestly arent such great nukes that you need ams, not at all.
banshees really suck in this matchup, only reason you would want to get them is to do smth different.

i think you probably won that game cuz the guy didnt see youre gargs coming, which is really retarded seeing as how incredibly hard bats rape gargs.

post a replay of you doing this strat, i hate theorycraft

[cole]

The strat GA was talking about is called "undead rifle caster" except the UDs go fiend stat nec banshee and tier 2 push. It can work suprisingly well because most orcs think they can beat it with grunt/raider/kodo/wyv fs tc and realize 3 secs into the battle that wow, i should have got walkers, gg me. But walkers arent the best dispel in the world, imo...

[GenocideAlive]

well, it seemed like it got dispelled too when i dispelled his curse, mustve seen wrong, but it doenst really matter, youre strat still sucks.
That's funny, I have a winning record in UD vs. Orc. Apparently you've redefined the word "suck" to mean "kicks ass". Or it could be that you're just uninformed and have little/no clue as to what I'm talking about. I'll let you decide.
as ive already said, howl and curse can both be dispelled extremely easy, meaning you got a useless hero spell and got a bunch of useless banshees. i dont even know why you suggested rof when its pretty obvious he'll have raiders so he'll just interrupt it everytime, this means youre pit lord is simply completely useless, none of his spells will do anything, youre SO much better off with a lich.
OK, so let's take a quick summary of everything the Orc will have: 2 Heroes, Grunts, Raiders, Walkers, Wyverns. How many expansions and what point of the game are we at? Because I know the Orc isn't going to have 80/80 food of upgraded walkers with wyverns at tier 2. It's fun to sit here and start pulling units out of your ass, but it certainly doesn't make you look like you know what you're talking about.

Tier 2 is generally when I get my expo--because the Orc can't have raiders and walkers at the same time, and that's when the strat shines. If he can't stop the expo, he's in for a loooooooooong game.
ams is nice when youre heroes are getting nuked, but stomp (or wave, imo stomp is a lot better vs ud) + cl honestly arent such great nukes that you need ams, not at all.
CL and wave are both excellent reasons to get AMS. At high levels they'll do almost 400 dmg to their first target and obviously bounce for less but still respectable amounts. Whether or not you likee the stomp is pretty irrelevant to me because frankly I'd rather have to deal with stun than damage. Howl, curse, and defensive Coil takes care of the stun aspect--the dmg aspect is much harder with which to cope.
i think you probably won that game cuz the guy didnt see youre gargs coming, which is really retarded seeing as how incredibly hard bats rape gargs.
I'm fairly certain I won the game because he didn't see gargs. But I kept them flapping over an impassable part of the terrain a ways away from my base on Phantom Grove, so there's not really much he could have done to scout them. That's the funny part about Orcs...they always assume you won't build counters to their units because they possess the capability to hard counter those units.

By hiding them and attacking his expo, I consumed his TP scroll so he couldn't TP off, build bats, and come back. By placement, trapped most of his army between the exit and his expo--he couldn't just walk out with his units esp with DK aura.

He flapped off with his wyverns at first, but once I started slaughtering his cows he brought them back. Then I kicked some of the wyv asses, and he flew off again. I stopped pursuit to attack his FS with garg/coil, he brought them back again, I finished them off along with his FS. He quit.

Strategy >>> hypothetical counters.
post a replay of you doing this strat, i hate theorycraft
Thus far, you've been the only one to Theorycraft. I've actually played with this and won (highest vs. L36), whereas you just give Orc possession of every unit in his arsenal and just throw them out in whatever quantity whenever you want. "Bats own gargs." "Walkers own Banshees." "Wyverns + Stomp + Raider owns fiendshee." "Ensnare owns RoF." What unit hasn't the Orc built?

Anyway, to anybody that actually wants to learn something instead of trying to look smart by showing off endless bullshit skills, go to WCR and look under the Undead section. I_MASS_PITLORDS has an article complete with tons of replays at all levels of play showing off this strat. As I said earlier, I changed my fiendshee slightly to accomodate some of his finer points (Cleave --> RoF on webbed wyvs).

[Lordshadowbane]

When I played, I used to go DH/PL vs UD and DH/DR vs HU. FL/ghoul rush is imba vs in mirrors. And one time I did FL/NAga/KOTG for ultimate cheese vs Orc.

[thefazant]

Thus far, you've been the only one to Theorycraft. I've actually played with this and won (highest vs. L36), whereas you just give Orc possession of every unit in his arsenal and just throw them out in whatever quantity whenever you want. "Bats own gargs." "Walkers own Banshees." "Wyverns + Stomp + Raider owns fiendshee." "Ensnare owns RoF." What unit hasn't the Orc built?

so i need to find someone who accidentially uses the same strat as you and then post the replay?
this is pretty much impossible.
it would be a lot handier if you would post a replay of this seeing as how you seem to be saying this is youre main ud v orc strat.
you really should have a lot of replays of you using it.
show me how you make the cl usefull even tho orc has very easy counters for all his skills

oh, and i am a lvl 36 orc, so that honestly doesnt impress me, just post a replay

[cole]

Ok wait a sec. Your a level 36 orc? Under what acc and server? Because i looked up that popup acc or w/e and its level 32 with around 300 and something solo games. And nearly all of them were HU. But level doesnt mean a whole lot anyways, i eat level 30+ for breakfast. Its the gosus that smurf that give me some trouble. Like the ZN people.

CL being crappy? Your talking about cryptlord? O.o? 5 beetles,necro rod, along with CL himself make a really good tank for fiends and such and with a dk backing him up, hes really hard to kill. Ive lost to tier 2 pushes with cl/firelord ghoul/fiend dual wands and offensive ud towering. You cant get walkers out fast enough and by the time you do its usually too late. But if you can hurt him early game and creepjack the hell out of him than its usually beatable. Just because a strat isnt the expected cookie cut in a matchup doesnt mean it sucks. Im not flaming you but i find your above post to be pretty inacurate.

[GenocideAlive]

so i need to find someone who accidentially uses the same strat as you and then post the replay?
this is pretty much impossible.
Yes, I charge with an impossible task: Get off your lazy dumb ass and go to WCR and look up the article in the UD section.
you really should have a lot of replays of you using it.
I don't save replays unless I think my opponent is a hacker. I can generally tell what I did wrong if I lost, and if I won I'm not really interested in seeing the replay of it. I guess you save all your replays or something?

[thefazant]

Ok wait a sec. Your a level 36 orc? Under what acc and server? Because i looked up that popup acc or w/e and its level 32 with around 300 and something solo games. And nearly all of them were HU. But level doesnt mean a whole lot anyways, i eat level 30+ for breakfast. Its the gosus that smurf that give me some trouble. Like the ZN people.

CL being crappy? Your talking about cryptlord? O.o? 5 beetles,necro rod, along with CL himself make a really good tank for fiends and such and with a dk backing him up, hes really hard to kill. Ive lost to tier 2 pushes with cl/firelord ghoul/fiend dual wands and offensive ud towering. You cant get walkers out fast enough and by the time you do its usually too late. But if you can hurt him early game and creepjack the hell out of him than its usually beatable. Just because a strat isnt the expected cookie cut in a matchup doesnt mean it sucks. Im not flaming you but i find your above post to be pretty inacurate.
i meant pl, ive actually lost vs cl a lot when i played orc, really underused imo

puppup was my 2nd account when i got tired of orc, my first was fazant on northrend, haven't played on that in months tho, so it probably decayed a lot.

[RedRagToAnOrc]

Thanks goes to I_MASS_PITLORDS, whom made unlife worth unliving.

Yeah, I read that strategy on the WCR Forums. It was funny. :)

DR is becoming more and more popular for Orc versus Human, presumably for the power creeping and silencing casters, but I don't buy it. Could someone explain that?