If God Created earth and jesus , then who created god himself...

[The_Black_Sheep]

have you ever wonderd who created God? i have, realy pisses me off, not knowing if hes real or not, becuase someone had to have created him, or maybe ALIENS CREATED US OR WAIT MAYBE WERE ALIENS!!!!!!! maybe when they probed us with stuff like cucumbers like many ages ago, they like accidently pushed it in too far and it fused them with us, or maybe WE WERE THE ALIENS!!!!!! and we kicked them rat bastards off our planet.........this all points to one thing ...WE ARE NOT ALONE!!!!!!!!......(eat at joes crab shack....got crabs...??? we do at joes crab shack) O_O;;!!!!!!!!!:eek::eek::eek:!!!!!!!!!(reply if you want ^_^;; :) )

[d00d]

If you wanted to have a serious discussion on this topic I don't think you should speak like a 10 year old.

OMG LOLOL!!!!11!!11!1

[dunchy]

Does it not say in the Bible that God has no beginning and no end? With that type of reasoning, then it's safe to assume that God had no creator, because he has allways existed.

[Whiteknight]

Black sheep, this is a serious forum, so post seriously.

BTW, welcome to WB :)

Dunchy, if God has no beginning and no end, then what was before God? How could God always have been, there must have been a before him, but... I'm just confusing myself. It's a paradox. No real way to solve this.

EDIT: Sorry, I thought this was in the intellectible forum. Why is this in the entertainment forum? Seems like the wrong area to me, maybe a mod should move it.

EDIT2: Oops, forgot dunchy was a mod or w/e. Forget about it being moved...

[hammocksleeper]

LOL why is this in Entertainment. Anyways, your question is like asking "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?"

And DON'T ANYBODY TRY TO ANSWER IT (lol) because even if there is one for the sake of this argument, there is no answer.

[dunchy]

Black sheep, this is a serious forum, so post seriously.

BTW, welcome to WB :)

Dunchy, if God has no beginning and no end, then what was before God? How could God always have been, there must have been a before him, but... I'm just confusing myself. It's a paradox. No real way to solve this.

EDIT: Sorry, I thought this was in the intellectible forum. Why is this in the entertainment forum? Seems like the wrong area to me, maybe a mod should move it.

EDIT2: Oops, forgot dunchy was a mod or w/e. Forget about it being moved...

I also thought this was the Intellectible forum, my bad for not moving it earlier.

If God had no beginning, then nothing would be before him, if there was, it died, right?

It's a new thought, and it's very hard to comprehend.

[HackingVictim]

:and the sending from the univere was created as god made the planets to let the people live in peace:Josip page 346


Meaning: No one knows!

[Whiteknight]

But how could there be nothing before god? Having always existed, when did he first start to be, because he started, but he always existed, but....

Okay, there is officially no way to argue this point. Let's just leave it at that I don't go to church, and I'm much happier and less confused that way.

[DaDaimon]

Well considering god created the universe according to several religious believes and with the universe time was created, there was nothing before god, since there was no time.

[Carnage]

Maybe God created himself... or herself. Yeah. Think about that. ^_^

[Duddits]

Like an asexual symbiote, God is.

[Whiteknight]

Okay, this is an impossible discussion. It's just going to go in loopholes. =\

[OboeGuru]

Heh, this is the same conundrum that plagues Big Bang theory.

Conundrum #1
The Universe spawns from a singularity in the Big Bang, but where did the singularity come from?
Best answer (known to me): It was there because of ______________.

Conundrum #2
God created the Universe, but where did God come from?
Only answer: He just Was.

Heh, it makes Big Bang theory look more plausible... I like, I like!!! :D

[Whiteknight]

Hmm... maybe GOD was the singularity that caused the big bang, which in turn created the universe. So, that may be how god always was, and how the big bang was created. Since there was no time before the universe, then the universe was created in an instant, seeing as how there was no time. So, the universe created time, so that means that the universe always was. THAT's IT!

I've explained all life in the universe!! There was no time before the big bang. The big bang created time! That means the universe always WAS because you can only use time to explain always was. So if was the singularity that created the big band, then god always was because he was the one who accidentally created time, so he always was. The universe was created instantaneously, seeing as there was no time before the universe. That means the universe always was.

Wow, all life explained!!!!! I'm so happy :)

[ShawnManX]

Well you see, when Earth was created it was assigned a god, we'll call it BOB. Anyways BOB decided to make reptiles the dominant species of earth so he gifted them with a faster metabolism than the other animals so they grew faster smarter and larger, untill they were about 6 feet tall, than he started giving them technilogical gifts, like very elaborate, yet fragile buildings and architectual achievements. BOB's dinosaur cities grew, and he decided he did a good job, so he brought all the seperate lands of the earth together, to consolidate his dinosaurs into one nation, on one continent.

Well the dinosaurs it turns out didn't like eachother much, they fought wars over who BOB liked the most, but BOB liked them all and gave them everything they wanted so they'd be happy and stop fighting. Eventually BOB sent a wise dinosaur to try and do what he had failed to do, at first it seemed to work and for a time the dinosaurs lived in peace, durring this time BOB was asked to provide them with transport so that they could more easily comute goods to the other dinosaur nations. So BOB gave them the ability to modify themselves, they created large transport dinosaurs that could hold many of the smaller ones, and travel across rivers.

However the wise dinosaur eventually died, peace held for close to 500 years before war once again broke out, so BOB tried again to crfeat a wise dinosaur, but this dinosaur despised BOB because BOB had so much power but still let the other wise dinosaur die, so this dinosaur took BOB's gift of genetic manipulation and formed it into the first bio-weapon.

The first genetic weapons were basic modifycations of the curent transport dinos, only they gave up sopme of their size for weapons, like horns and spines and clubs. This war raged on and on for Aeons and BOB was dumbfounded, by the time the celestial council saw what BOB had done, the weapons the dinosaurs were building were so terifying that they were mortified.

BOB was imediatly stripped of his power and forced to serve a senence he is still carrying out. The senate apointed the current deity, a well respected god with fifteen spacefaring, peaceful species under his belt. He saw BOB's error imediatly and set about to rectify the situation. He sprit the landmass, and for centuries he reduced the world to nothing but a barren, frozen wasteland. And within it he nutured the species that he intended to rule this planet of his.

He created two species that were masters of their world, and gave them the abilities they needed inordedr to as quickly as possible catch up with the rest of the universe witch had a few hundred billion year head start on these two fledgling species. God tried to keep some of his other success from interfeering too soon, because they would probly frighten these poor creatures, however curiosity gets even the best of us and a few of his more recent ones were allowed ot watch along and take notes. He kept his interaction with the two peoples of earth to a minimum so that they could compete freely, and in the end, whoever could persevere over the other, would prove their ability to handle space.

You see, god was appointed not created. Naw this was just a fun short story to write.

[Whiteknight]

Umm... okay....

Good read though :)

[Duddits]

Man, I'm just gonna nod my head here. See? -nods head-

Yes, that's about all I'm comprehending ^^

[hammocksleeper]

Yeah Shawn! That was really creative and awesome. I like it a lot. :)


So BOB gave them the ability to modify themselves, they created large transport dinosaurs that could hold many of the smaller ones, and travel across rivers. lmao just picturing it ^^

[KesTrel]

Can you imagen completly nothing, absolute nothing. Means there is not even matter to precive, no light. Absolute void nothing. Its almost to difficult to imangen. A minor disturbance in this nothingness is how an intelligence comes about.
Its inifinitly unlikly, however even more unlikly is that atoms,ect so intelligenly orginized just came about on their own. Have you ever seen a house build itself ? We have time to wait, theres evidence that says you're concuicness may be the stuff of electrons. Electrons according to quantum research at the university of michiangan a single one could in good theory hold in the realm of a gigabyte of information. Scientist arnt sure what an electron is, this may mean you have a very long time to wait for a house to come about and build itself.

Jesus was not a direct creation of "god". Rather an advanced race of people known as the thiaoouba. There is intellectual evidence that Jesus the son of mary died in japan. There is also good evidence there was a Jesus Christ who died on the cross. Jesus son of mary was a very intelligent person, he even invented the japaneese alphabet of katana, its on almost every keybord in japan today.
Curious ? Click here. (http://www.thiaoouba.com/tomb.htm)

If you're skeptical about what I have said, then its only fair to yourself that you become skeptical to what others say of creation of the universe, jesus and such. Do feel free to explore in your life people may tell you things. Take a good deep look at their motives. What are their motives?

It seems to me that if the was a creator of the universe that we were created by them. We would be here for a reason, also there would be a need for earth. I can tell that we need to learn something more intelligent here, because I see around myself so many problems that I could solve and learn from mistakes ect. I can see this is a very important topic, my place in the universe. I simply do not trust these people who have lust for money, who would abuse children commiting crimes against them. There's much to consider, Buddah was not in a religon he thought for himself and tryed to verify things. I shall do much the same. Jesus Christ was not a christian, I know an intelligent god would not create another intelligence capabile of making choices only to annoy themselfs with worship of infferior primitive in comparison minds. I know thats not logical, an intelligent intellect would not create another intelligence to do the many things that I would be doing involved in a religon. Its simply an annoyance to a higher individual like the source, god, creator, what ever you refer to that intellect as.

[Battlecruiser]

Hmm... maybe GOD was the singularity that caused the big bang, which in turn created the universe.
You do know what a singularity is right?

[WeekendLazyness]

have you ever wonderd who created God? i have, realy pisses me off, not knowing if hes real or not, becuase someone had to have created him, or maybe ALIENS CREATED US OR WAIT MAYBE WERE ALIENS!!!!!!! maybe when they probed us with stuff like cucumbers like many ages ago, they like accidently pushed it in too far and it fused them with us, or maybe WE WERE THE ALIENS!!!!!! and we kicked them rat bastards off our planet.........this all points to one thing ...WE ARE NOT ALONE!!!!!!!!......(eat at joes crab shack....got crabs...??? we do at joes crab shack) O_O;;!!!!!!!!!:eek::eek::eek:!!!!!!!!!(reply if you want ^_^;; :) )
It was Jupiter's fifth moon!!! LOL haha :)

[Whiteknight]

You do know what a singularity is right?Yeah, I know, it's like a black hole. But have you thought that God is nothingness and IS a black hole? Huh? Huh? Have you now? Exactly :smirk:.

Although, if you want to get technical, then it's a point in space-time at which gravitational forces cause matter to have infinite density and infinitesimal volume, and space and time to become infinitely distorted. So basically, something to the effect of a black hole.

[RelinaIonna]

Jesus was not a direct creation of "god". Rather an advanced race of people known as the thiaoouba. There is intellectual evidence that Jesus the son of mary died in japan. There is also good evidence there was a Jesus Christ who died on the cross. Jesus son of mary was a very intelligent person, he even invented the japaneese alphabet of katana, its on almost every keybord in japan today.
Curious ? Click here (http://www.thiaoouba.com/tomb.htm)WOW just WOW. I've forgotten what I was gonna say about the privious posts and I don't even care to reast the rest of them.

[KesTrel]

Even in the twisted, tweaked book's that the churches regulate today.

Jesus says that he is the son of Yehova (Thiaoouba). He dosent say he was born here on earth. The angels demanded they be called the people of thiaoouba. When ever you read the bible unsted of saying "God said" try, "the people of thiaoouba said".

Shocking, yes ? Well when we ignore our religous rituals, dogoma's ect. When we look at the intellectual evidence we are left with we can solve the puzzle, but only when one is prepaird to do so.

Also, in 1947 in the nile river valley. There was an ancient jar found containing manuscripts ancient text. Among those a bible from that time, it shows just how tweaked our books are today. :) Please consider the motives of those around you.

If you know of jesus, then you would definitly consider him a intelligent individual, after all this individual was capable of great maricles. If you really consider it, in a god created universe, there would be no maricles. Every thing would happen as a direct cause of something else, either big or small. Perhaps these maricles are not maricles at all but understanding of a greater intelligence than is born on earth. Anyways back to the point, would you want to goto a school where you're accomplishments are punished and others are rewarded for your good deeds? By saying that an intelligent individual would only want you to belive in them, rather then recgonize them for who they are is a crazy concept. I dont think that you're parents, freinds would simply say belive in me and I'll be your freind, ect. What can be accomplished by simple beliving ? Isent it more satisfing to expand knowlege and understanding ? Do you think that it makes sence for jesus to die for your mistakes? If there are no concequences for mistakes then how would you learn from them? You would be robbed of the feedback you need to make better choices and learn to avoid making errors ! It makes no actual sence at all. Jesus is not a shepard, he was and remains an intelligent individual who attempted to help the people of this planet when we were in need of some guiadance. However his message today distorted, perverted, ectra still remains with in our grasp to understand. Take for example, Jesus displayed anger at matieral and money when he met a certin merchant. Yet every year on jesus's birthday matieral things are the only thing most of us can understand that day. What a perversion of what he really spoke about ! Yet the religons are okay with that, what are their motives. You as an intelligent individual have a choice to consider the motives of any entitiy around you. It would be wise simply for yourself to check the motives of things.

If you like try to take step back and ask yourself questions such as "what would the purpose of that be ? "

[KesTrel]

Maybe God created himself... or herself. Yeah. Think about that. ^_^Essentialy, do you belive that intelligence has a gender? I think its rather just a habit we've grown accustom to thinking everything has to be one or the other.

[KesTrel]

Heh, this is the same conundrum that plagues Big Bang theory.

Conundrum #1
The Universe spawns from a singularity in the Big Bang, but where did the singularity come from?
Best answer (known to me): It was there because of ______________.

Conundrum #2
God created the Universe, but where did God come from?
Only answer: He just Was.

Heh, it makes Big Bang theory look more plausible... I like, I like!!! :DHow do you think that god would create a universe? What would such a creators motives be for creating this universe?

Gods intelligence would be a disturbance in simply nothingness. Do you think a house can build itself ?

I think the big bang theory is a logical one. I apologize for my triple post.

[Duddits]

Which is why we use the eidt button!! ^^

Type out [*quote=Person'sname] -insert copy/pasted message [/quote] without the asterisk in there to get a quote without having to press the quote button. ^D

[Sagittarius]

In all holy writings concerning the origins of a divine creator the passages obscure the meaning that is sought by those who believe in that set of belifs. The bible states that "I am Alpha and Omega, I have no beginning or end." In the Qur'an it reads that there is no beginning of Allah. That time and creation did not exist without Allah. The Torah remarks that the origins of God is beyond human comprehension. In opinion i believe that the Qur'an has a better understanding of God and the nature of God. The statement makes sense that to think of an absence of God is without existance in a physical or spiritual form.

[KesTrel]

Which is why we use the eidt button!! ^^

Type out [*quote=Person'sname] -insert copy/pasted message without the asterisk in there to get a quote without having to press the quote button. ^D[/QUOTE] I am firmilar with the software, I've been a moderator here and there. I was just being lazy. :D Thats why I apologize I know better.

[MnementhDedderath]

I'm not going to get into reasons here, just gonna toss another little something out there.

If God is the Alpha and the Omega. Could he not be a self propigating universe? The big bang with the big crunch? Would that not make him both the beginning and the end?

[Nahotnoj]

[How could God always have been, there must have been a before him, but... I'm just confusing myself. It's a paradox. No real way to solve this.][/QUOTE]

There is a bible verse that says: Blessed are those who have not seen yet have come to believe" or something like that. Religion is a question of Faith, not a question of "Ill believe it if there is a logical exxplenation"

PS I dont really get how to use the quote so that it succesfully creates the little white speech buble so sry for wierd text

EDIT: I meant to say, faith is a question of believing without proof, not believing once you have evidence or have seen.

[MnementhDedderath]

And then yet again religious faith has killed more people than all disease, famine or natural disasters combined. Since blind faith destroys more than it does good, why should I have blind faith? Give me reasons, not theocracies.

[RelinaIonna]

Penquins! Yes Penguins! Its so obvious! Only they have the technological capabilities of creating a GoD!! They've been playing dumb all allong! The last birds we'd ever suspect!!
http://www.newagearts.com/graphics/penguin.jpg
Look at him just standing their! Whats he planning next?!

[Frattimonde]

I belive that the creator has always exsisted.
Altough It have may been sleeping at first in the achient pasts, and did not become truly aware of Itself until It awakend.
And then, well...
He created us.

He is beginning of all and the end of all.
That is what think.

[King_master]

Well the Bible does tell us He is the Alpha and the Omega.

[Grom_Icecream]

I propose there is a more scientific answer, maybe along the lines of "God doesn't exist". Anyway, sorry for the off topic post.

If there was a god, you would expect him to be the so called "alpha and omega" but that brings up an interesting question, at least to me. If he has always existed, at some stage it would have been just him, as most agree he created everything. If it began with just god, how would he know how to do anything. You would all be proposing that he knows everything as well, including the future, as how would he know what to do.

Hope this makes sense.....

[Protosschick99]

have you ever wonderd who created God? (reply if you want ^_^;; :) )
God is the Alpha and Omega--The first and the last--He has always been here--No one created Him.

And I love Him for being soo awesome!! :D

[RelinaIonna]

Him??? Do Ewalks have gender's?

[Frattimonde]

I´ve seen a lot of people saying that the creator Is a he/she.
I think Its pretty pointless to argue If the creator Is a he or she.

I still think Neutralis (the creator) is neither.

[EdvardMunch]

When ya'll say that God has been around forever, does that mean that time has been around forever as well, or are you saying that God exists outside of time?

[SHISHKABOB]

i believe they are saying God exists outside of time


I believe that God's view of time is in like 5xFF mode so the 7 days of creation was more like 700 million years.

[SHISHKABOB]

so the infinte amount of time he's been around doesn't seem like that. so to him its just like you wake up one morning, you know you've been around long but you have no proof and it feels like a dream

[Kamikaze_Chicken]

god is in everything he ever created so if he somehow dies he just gets reincarted from someone, or something

[Evangielis]

According to the good book...

http://incolor.inebraska.com/ere/hackers_bible

|n +h3 b39!nn!n9 G0d cr3a+3d +h3 h3av3n and +h3 3ar+h.

So obviously there was a b39!nn!n9 and according to accepted dogma there will be an 3/\/|). Since creation encompasses all space-time, logically God existed before +h3 b39!nn!n9 and hence is not bound by the constraints of causal time-space.

To put it less cerebrally: God doesn't have a watch. Or at least one you can read...

[Carnage]

Oh, Great Cthulhu, dreaming in R'lyeh,
Thy priest offers up this sacrifice,
That Thy coming be soon,
And that of Thy kindred dreamers.
I am Thy priest and adore Thee...
That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.

[Evangielis]

But Cthulhu is the high priest of the Elder Gods...how can he have priests?

[Geckat]

OK God is just...there. Before God, there was nothing, and that is because there was no 'before God'. He isn't human, so he doesn't age. He wasn't created, he just...WAS. It's hard to understand, but hey, so is life itself. Think about it.

Great now my head hurts. I'm going back to the SC forum.

[GiaDragoness]

Yea, I have pondered over this one quite a while. Such things like, "what was it like before anything existed?" I came up with ann answer to this, only to find anouther question: "does time run in a constant loop?" if so, when did it stat and what began this? God has no beginning or end, we can't understand this yet because we all think in mere humans terms, and we need to learn greater more meaningfull things by God himself on another plane in order to understand this. The way I see it though, is that we were'nt meant to understand it, because if we did, we would always worry about it. So I guess it's our job just to shut up, and hang on for the ride. This is the only answer I have ever found when ask questions like we are asking here today. Another interesting mind bender, the bible says Jesus IS God, and that him, the holy spirit, and god, all have no beginning or end. Try wrapping your minds around that one!

:smash: Smashy Smashy! :smash:

[Cygnus]

Except the only problem is that we live and work on our plane of existence, for sake of consitency let's just call it this "human-scape". In this plane of existence things die, we precieve a world of three dimensions, where "time" goes in only one way, and we waste our tmie debating foolish things that can never actually be proven true or false. In all seriousness all four points are true, but for the sake of getting a headache because I'll be facing arguments from my fellow aheists and from theists. I'd rather just say the last part is a joke (but it in reality is not).

Basically the point is, we're stuck in "human-scape". We're born into it, live in it, and die in it. Just like every other creature in our world. We follow all the 'laws' of the world. We're bound by them. We can get as philisophical as we want but until you can somehow break out of "human-scape" there is no answer to this question.

This question I must point out exists to pose a problem for those who say that the universe was created by some amazingly powerful being. Whether it from a supreme deity who for no reason got bored, from the womb of some pregnant goddess, or by drunken alien frant boys who decided to pull a prank which got way to out of hand... Thus if someone says the universe was created by one of these, the unbeliever can say "Then who created this god?". When the 'believer' answers, "Because god exists out of time/ has always been here forever/ you're a heathen you'll never understand! etc. etc." The unbeliever can then retort, "then why can't the universe?!" Ah it all becomes clear.

Again I must profess that I do not believe in supreme deities. I believe that I can not escape "human-scape" and that when I die, I will die. But when I die, my atoms and body which are no longer a use to my now dead body, will leave me, recycled a la decomposition. Thus I enter blissful unexistence and the reasources that helped create me and have sustained me will return to the enviroment, just as they do everyday. Thus I have achieved eternal life, in an ironic sort of way, like every bloody thing in the universe.

Though this does not mean that I eagerly await the day I shall die, no quite the contrary. I am scared of losing my life, because it will be the ultamite change I can probably come across. I am human, I love (as you probably notice), live, and feel like everyone else. Just because I believe differently than you does not mean I'm not human. We all are. So until the riddle of "human-scape" is solved, we're stuck here. So enjoy your stay, because it's the best you can do.

[Seraph_Knight]

-deleted-

[Black.Ice]

Time is irrelavent. The Qur'an answers this question, by stating something along the lines of, "Do not try learn of how I came into existance, as this is beyond your human comprehension,"

Don't take my exact quote for it, because it's wrong. I'm just stating something along the lines of what I remember.

First of all, time is a constant for us. It flows without disruption. For god, time is not a constant, but a variable which can easily be changed. How things were created, what came first, who came first, what existed out of nothingness is not comprehendable.

Our human comprehension limits our understanding, as we are bound by the truth that, "Something must come first,"

Think about it, humans can not comprehend something coming from nothing. If a gold ring appeared on your desk right now, you can not comprehend it. You will try putting some logic behind it. This logic is not capable of comprehending it though.

The loophole is not who came first, but it is our minds.

[Cygnus]

I beleive Cygnus just said something along the lines of this, that things exist beyond our comprehension. This is why I think atheists have either more faith than most christians, or are just blatent and ignorant to the fact that something of a higher existance CLEARLY exists, otherwise, nothing at all would. Thus, being no-existance, which itself woul STILL be some sort of existance if we define it by human standards, because we can't image any other way. Yet, it clealry is out there, aethists even state this, and still deny God exists. That to me is just outwright defines "oxymoron".
Actually, what I meant was that we can not know if things exist beyond our comprehension and there is no way to prove or disporove it. We exist right now of course in, "human-scape", and things seem to come to an end. Lose the thing that makes them sentient when they die. It's possible that some sort of supreme deity could exist but I just can't see it's existence in "human-scape". He/ She/ It is not here, yet all around every second something dies. I don't necessarily believe in divine beings because I see death and not see a being. I am mortal, I will die. It's just unlike you, I know that my body will cease to function and so shall my mind. That unless death breaks us out of "human-scape" and magical spirits take us to 'heaven' or 'hell'... yet you can't prove or disprove it. I can show you though without a doubt that things die, I've seen it. I've stood there and watched a man, my grandfather, who meant a lot to me die. I can show to you that his body is now decomposing. That he won't come back. Why look forward to something that might not exist and can't be proven, and waste our finite time here on Earth?

First of all, time is a constant for us. It flows without disruption. For god, time is not a constant, but a variable which can easily be changed. How things were created, what came first, who came first, what existed out of nothingness is not comprehendable.

Our human comprehension limits our understanding, as we are bound by the truth that, "Something must come first,"
Again though, we're stuck here. You can't disprove or prove that a being of supreme power exists. In fact there's more evidence around you that the Earth isn't really run by some divine creature but rather running on it's own clock. Things a born, live, and die. It happens. I can show you that, I can prove that. Human understanding should be able to comprehend that, but why can't we?

We're finite, that's definately the truth.

[Kya]

God was not created, He always has been and Always will be. No human can understand this, but this is the truth.

[Cygnus]

God was not created, He always has been and Always will be. No human can understand this, but this is the truth.
The only thing is, you can't show me anything to say it's true. All I know is this, that you're saying these words. I can see myself bleed and be hurt. I can see myself aging. I can see people all around me living. But all you're doing is saying that god exists. You say it is truth, yet you can not show me god. I can show you finite things. I can show you "human-scape", don't you see it. Don't you see the stars? The Earth? The trees? The animals? We all go away.

Yet on top of this, if no human can understand it, how can a god exist? How can you say no human can understand, god exists, and that it's the truth all in one sentence?

[Kya]

The Bible is what people have written because God told them so, that is our proof. And He is like wind, you know He's there, but you cannot see Him until you go to Heaven.

[Cygnus]

The Bible is what people have written because God told them so, that is our proof. And He is like wind, you know He's there, but you cannot see Him until you go to Heaven.So sayeth many a religion. Are you right? Are they right? All I know is the world and thus I shall believe in it. All I know is the comforting touch of someone I love thus I will believe in that. All I know is a friend's smile to raise my spirit's thus I will believe in that. But until I am taken from this world I shall not believe in invisible beings that do not show themselves. If of course I am taken from this world, because who knows that happens when one dies.

[Carnage]

This is quite interesting, really. Once Cygnus asked me to convince him there was a God by using everything I had used as a Christian. Haha. I couldn't then and still can't now. Not a chance. :P

It's like pushing a camel through the pin... or something like that. :shiftyl:

[Kya]

Well Cygnus, I guess I will fight you in Armageddon, the war between Heaven and Hell.

[Cygnus]

It's like pushing a camel through the pin... or something like that. :shiftyl:
It hurts! ;)

Well Cygnus, I guess I will fight you in Armageddon, the war between Heaven and Hell.
Ugg. I'd rather not. Can't we all sit down for some tea and be friends? War's in heavens and hells aren't much appealing to me.

[GiaDragoness]

So sayeth many a religion. Are you right? Are they right? All I know is the world and thus I shall believe in it. All I know is the comforting touch of someone I love thus I will believe in that. All I know is a friend's smile to raise my spirit's thus I will believe in that. But until I am taken from this world I shall not believe in invisible beings that do not show themselves. If of course I am taken from this world, because who knows that happens when one dies.

See, this is the kind of thing i don't understand. God is a subject that comes up very often here at this round table of intellectuals, yet, everytime, people demand solid proof. When they are given references from the bible, they say such as "that's what YOU think" or "any crakpot could write that at any time!." How can you demand proof of something like this? Are you honestly that lazy that you don't want to "waste your time" with it, trying to understand? You demand solid proof; if anything like an enourmas hand reached down out of the sky, or some such effect, who would need to have faith in God then? How would God truly measure people, by who really wanted to follow him in the first place, and who got on board just because they had to, to avoid a flaming hell of suffering?

If heaven is truely as wonderous as it is said, why should people who are too damn lazy to have a little faith, people who think it is their RIGHT, and that they deserve an honest survey, be allowed in? NO. Heaven is not like things here on Earth. It takes a lot of sacrifice, hard work, and many times doing things you don't want to do, such as being humble, or apoligizing even though you were right, Being nice to someone in their hour of need, even though they would never do such a thing for you, etc.. Does eternal paradise sound like something that can be oh so easily acheived, that all you have to do is just so to church on sunday, or just say "i believe it's true", especially when you have the proff in front of you.

The road to God, may be a long, narrow, and difficult, but, God is not like we are, this much is clear. God alwasy cares about people, and does'nt just get pissed off and wipe out an entire continent, then turn around and say "oops, maybe I should have counted to ten before thinking about that". Anyone who looks around us, can clearly see more than enough evidence already. How do you explain such miricles around you as "Normal"? You hear all the time of miraculous survivals, people healed when doctors said they would never walk again, and then they run in the olympics the very next year... Miricles are not just all these "oh that's so rare, nothing like that ever happens to real peolie like me". Wrong-o. Think about it: What are some things you take completely for granted, that you really can't even explian? Healing, gravity, light, sound, etc. We take alll thse things for granted, as "they are because they just are." You can't explain how they work, or even why. We just know that they do indeed work. How can you see so many things that you can't explain, then say "there is nothing higher than us." BS if I ever heard it.

Actually, what I meant was that we can not know if things exist beyond our comprehension and there is no way to prove or disporove it. We exist right now of course in, "human-scape", and things seem to come to an end. Lose the thing that makes them sentient when they die. It's possible that some sort of supreme deity could exist but I just can't see it's existence in "human-scape". He/ She/ It is not here, yet all around every second something dies. I don't necessarily believe in divine beings because I see death and not see a being. [QUOTE=Cygnus]
Cygnus, I think it is very wierd, on how you clearly explain that something higher than us exists, then deny that it exists latter in your same post. You say that there is a clear boundry that exists beyond our understanding, then you say you don't beleive in any supreme diety (which, would obviously have to exist outside this human-scape)? Could you please clarify just where your train of thought obviously derailed please?

:smash: Smashy Smashy! :smash:

[Kopaka]

Intersting, but then why was man created?

[EdvardMunch]

Given the length of this, I feel it is more easily readable if I put neat little titles over the sections:

Faith needs evidence too

I think "faith" is incorrectly used these days. I usually hear it in the sense of "have faith it exists when you cannot prove it". Yet, where does such faith come from? If one has faith in God, meaning they believe God exists when they have no evidence for it, what else do they have faith in? If faith truly does not require evidence, then they should have faith in everything. They should have faith that I am a multi-millionaire, they should have faith that the government is in possession of a chupucabra (it's true damnit), and they should have faith that McDonald's tracks us via satellite whenever we eat one of their burgers. A person who needs only faith, not evidence, literally believes every single bizarre notion that pops into their head. To live one's life like this would be to do nothing with it (I believe a person like this is called superstitious). I know this is not the status of believers, therefore even believers do not operate solely on faith.

To acquire faith, one needs a starting point. Somehow, someway, the believer was convinced to have faith. To convince a person requires evidence. There is a reason the believer has faith in God's existence but not my mondo bank account.

Therefore, faith cannot exist without evidence. This is why us atheists need evidence. We have no starting point.

Response to Pascal's Wager

I am familiar with Pascal's Wager (which is better: Waste a Sunday and turn out Hell doesn't exist, or blow off God and go to Hell for it?), but it's an argument that works only for those who believe there is a possibility that Hell exists in the first place. I whole heartedly do not believe in Hell and I don't believe there's even the slightest possibility of a Hell.

I can make my own wager, EdvardMunch's Wager: I have a satellite laser. I will toast you no matter where you are if you do not send me $100. What do you do? Send me $100, because you'd rather be safe from a laser that may or may not exist, or call my bluff and blow me off?

You know I don't have a laser in space, there's no evidence for it. Not a single person who is reading this has the slightest inclination to give me $100. This is how us atheists feel in response to Pascal's Wager. Once again, evidence is essential.

Where did God come from?

Since all of that stuff up there was probably better suited for the "Does God exist?" thread, I'll throw some thoughts into the main question of this thread:

I don't buy that we cannot know the mind and essence of God, and that God exists in some sort of supernatural state beyond time. If God exists, God exists in our world, meaning God exists from our world. Which isn't to say our world created God, but that God is made from the same elements that our world is. God is composed of atoms and energy. No being can interact with a world that they are not of. How can God not be physical but physically interact?

Therefore, God is just like the rest of the universe or, for what I really care about, God is not beyond time.

Furthermore, how can God exist outside of time? There is not much to time. It refers to the passing moments. God is aging right now. Even if God has the ability to go forward and backward in time, seconds still pass. If God can say "one Mississippi, two Mississippi" then time is still passing for God.

Now, the question comes: Where did the universe come from? God made it. Okay, where did God come from? I've heard two answers, each of which I will refute.

1. God always existed - For God to be infinitely old is a paradox. How many days old is God? An infinite amount. Okay, how many months old is God? The same number, an infinite amount. God is the same number of days and months old.

Furthermore, by definition, there can be no number which is greater than infinity. So if God is infinitely old, time is infinitely old, yet time is still passing. Every day is a new day. Whereas yesterday time was an infinite amount of days old, today, time is an infinite amount of days old plus 1. Next week, it will be infinite + 8 days old. Another paradox for why time, and God, cannot be infinitely old.

2. God is uncaused - I have no problem with the uncaused part. At some point, something came from nothing. This is just something we have to accept. If God is not infinitely old, then God has a beginning. If nothing came before God to cause God, then God is uncaused. If there is no God, then the universe is uncaused.

I have often heard this question: Which is more likely? That the universe could come out of nowhere, or that God could make the universe?

I ask this question in response: Which seems more likely? That a finite amount of particles had an uncaused beginning and, thanks to a one in a trillion chance, swirled together to create the planets and animals? Or that an infinitely powerful being (conscious I might add) came out of nowhere perfectly assembled?

(Before someone says "Well, if the particles turned into living animals, then some particles must have a life potential, which means life was created in the big bang" I believe that our consciousness and life is a supremely complex brain state, and not something of itself.)

(Also, before someone uses an argument I'm about to make against me, I think the odds of God coming out of nowhere is zero. Therefore, I do not believe that, on a long enough time line, an uncaused God is innevitable. I believe this because God's nature is composed of miracles. If we define a miracle as an action which breaks the law of nature [what else could it be? Is an action which pushes but does not break the law of nature not a feat, instead of a miracle?] and if God is capable of miracles, then God's existence would be breaking the laws of nature. God could be called a natural oxymoron.

Now, it's possible that there actually aren't any laws of nature ["They're more like guidelines!"] which could be possible. The second law of thermodynamics were broken a few years ago. (http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992572) This way, by performing "miracles" God isn't breaking any laws of nature, but if that's the case, how is God so godly? We are capable of anything God can do, in that case.)

Besides, is it really so unlikely that the particles could have formed into planets? I grant, it's unlikely. I have no idea what the odds are. Let's say 1 in 1,000,000,000,000^9. But a probability, given a long enough time line, is inevitable. It must happen, otherwise the probability of it happening is zero. This means that the only problem with the extreme probability is how early it happened.

What if the universe beat the odds in forming and was made faster than the probability should have allowed? Probability states that the universe most likely would have been formed a quadrillion years after the big bang (a number I'm pulling out of thin air), but instead it is formed a billion years after it. How excessively unlikely.

So? Odds are beaten all the time. Flip a coin and try to get 2 heads in a row. It should take you 4 tries, on average, but on some of those averages you'll get your two heads on your first two flips. Beating the odds are just something that happens. Would it be better if it took the universe 100 billion years to start forming? 100 trillion? Would it matter?

Sites on what happened after the big bang

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/cosmic_galaxies_020122-1.html
http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/BBhistory.html
http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/Cyberia/Cosmos/InTheBeginning.html

(I now await a science scholar to tear me to shreds, I'm digging my fallout shelter as we type)

[GiaDragoness]

*EDIT: I don't think I really need to quote edvards entire speech. Look above.


Wow edvard, I must admit I never really pictured you as an athesit, more of a buddahist really. Anyways...

If by what you mean in your last post about faith, as in people who beleive in God have a blind faith in something they can't prove, I would like to be the first one here to say that faith is not blind, it is merely being sure of what you hope for, and certain of what you do not see. All you atheists keep putting christianity up on the stand, well now it is your turn. How is you not beleiving that hell and heaven don't exist, require any more or less faith than us Christians beleiving that they do exist? If you don't beleive they exist, then how do you define, or explain how mysteries, and abnormalities that make no sense? How do you explain mysteries of the unexplainible? You keep asking us to prove God exists, why don't you prove that he does'nt? I bet you that no human alive can come up with some bit of evidence that can prove outwright, that God does not exist. Only that there are things that cannot be explained by any veiw that does'nt include some unforeseen force higher than us.

Although it is true that the odds are beatible, and would likly explain why we are the only known forms of life within 10 billion lightyears that we can see (or whatever the number is), How does something come from nothing, and where truely was the beginning? How can something logically come out of nothing? If nothing existed in the beginning, how can some particles, of which to make the space, come into existance without being shaped or molded from some other force? You atheists keep challanging us Christians to prove God's existance, now I want you guys to tell us where it all started. How the universe came into play, what existed before the beggining of existance itself. If we must defend our beliefs that God exists, then by all rights, you should have to defend yours.

:smash: Smashy Smashy! :smash:

[EdvardMunch]

Wow Edvard, I must admit I never really pictured you as an atheist, more of a Buddhist really.
Heh. Actually, Buddhists are atheists. Nonetheless, I like to call myself a secular pagan (in this case, I'm using pagan to mean a witch, and not a general polytheist). Meaning, I'd be pagan if I believed the lord and the lady existed. To quote you: Anyway...

...faith is not blind, it is merely being sure of what you hope for, and certain of what you do not see.
As I argued in my above post, faith requires evidence. You say faith is not blind, meaning there is evidence. How did you come to the conclusion to have faith in God's existence?

How is it that you not believing that Hell and Heaven don't exist, require any more or less faith than us Christians beleiving that they do exist?
Like any good skeptic, I assume something does not exist until I am shown pretty convincing evidence for it. If we needed faith that the unproven did not exist we'd have faith in a lot. We'd have faith, not knowledge, that Alice In Wonderland is fictional.
There really isn't a remote chance that Alice In Wonderland is real right? You don't have faith that Alice In Wonderland is fictional, you know it. You know Alice In Wonderland is not real because there is no evidence for it to be real. Until someone proves AIW to be real, you'll know it's fictional.

If you don't believe they exist, then how do you define, or explain mysteries and abnormalities that make no sense? How do you explain mysteries of the unexplainable?
Using science. True, there are things that cannot be explained. To explain them, I cannot philosophize answers out of thin air, I just have to admit I do not yet know them and wait until the day I can follow the clues to their answer. What good is it to answer questions with false answers?
It is also outright dangerous to answer questions with answers that aren't proven true. These "answers" serve as the basis for a lot of other "facts". For example, imagine how screwed up modern mathematics would be if, because mathematicians didn't know what 1 + 1 equaled, they said 4.

You keep asking us to prove God exists, why don't you prove that he doesn't? I bet you that no human alive can come up with some bit of evidence that can prove outwright, that God does not exist.
The burden is on Christians to prove God's existence, because without evidence we must assume something does not exist. Also, it is impossible to prove something doesn't exist. How would you?
I have a friend named Fred. Fred is capable of teleportation, entering parallel universes that we cannot enter, and invisibility. Prove to me Fred doesn't exist. You can scour the universe searching for him, he'll just go invisible or teleport to his other dimension.

Although it is true that the odds are beatible, and would likly explain why we are the only known forms of life within 10 billion lightyears that we can see (or whatever the number is), How does something come from nothing, and where truely was the beginning? How can something logically come out of nothing? If nothing existed in the beginning, how can some particles, of which to make the space, come into existance without being shaped or molded from some other force?
As I stated, at some point something came from nothing. Either God did or the universe. If God is more powerful than the universe, and it's unlikely for a bunch of dead particles to come out of nowhere, then isn't it that much more unlikely that God could have come out of nowhere?

You atheists keep challanging us Christians to prove God's existence, now I want you guys to tell us where it all started. How the universe came into play, what existed before the beggining of existance itself.
I don't mean to give a cop-out answer, but... science will tell us one day. Just because it answers a question doesn't mean it is instantly right. I'd rather wait until we know and can prove the answers rather than jump the gun with answers that might be false. Otherwise, what we get will look a lot like phrenology.

[GiaDragoness]

...faith is not blind, it is merely being sure of what you hope for, and certain of what you do not see. As I argued in my above post, faith requires evidence. You say faith is not blind, meaning there is evidence. How did you come to the conclusion to have faith in God's existence?
We humans tend to see things in a different light than what is sometimes needed to see the proof. I first did not really start on the path of Christianity because I wanted to live as a christian for all it's principles. I do now, but back then it was because I had nothing to lose. My life was at a terrible time, and nothing seemed to make sense anymore. There is an actual power in Christianiy, that people hear about all the time, but never truely realize, how real it is. Power, truth, and conviction of God are not things you see, it is;nt a science, it is something you feel, expereince, and realize. If you try to take a scientific aspect towards God, you obviously come up with nothing. When I first became Christian, I did'nt do it on some "well based, informed technical decision", I did it because it felt right. When I say right, I don't mean the type of right and wrong such as good and bad, I mean the type of, it fits, and it just is. Religion is something that people don't see with their eyes, they see it with their soul if you will. They experience it as if it's a sense they never knew they had, but they just know how to feel it. If you are looking through the pages of religion for factual data, your wasting your time. The reason Science and Religion, is that Science you can define by factual data, but not something you have much if any sense of. Religion is something that you can only learn by expereincing the full force of it. If you are the type of person to bound yourself only to facts and what you can see and touch right in front of you, then, I guess, it would probably be best if you did'nt waste your time, trying to follow a divine path, all the whole time trying to quantify or explain it.

How is it that you not believing that Hell and Heaven don't exist, require any more or less faith than us Christians beleiving that they do exist? Like any good skeptic, I assume something does not exist until I am shown pretty convincing evidence for it. If we needed faith that the unproven did not exist we'd have faith in a lot. We'd have faith, not knowledge, that Alice In Wonderland is fictional.
There really isn't a remote chance that Alice In Wonderland is real right? You don't have faith that Alice In Wonderland is fictional, you know it. You know Alice In Wonderland is not real because there is no evidence for it to be real. Until someone proves AIW to be real, you'll know it's fictional.
If we need faith that the unproven did not exist? Q, would the unproven happen to classify in the catagory of unexplainable phenomina as well?


You keep asking us to prove God exists, why don't you prove that he doesn't? I bet you that no human alive can come up with some bit of evidence that can prove outwright, that God does not exist. The burden is on Christians to prove God's existence, because without evidence we must assume something does not exist. Also, it is impossible to prove something doesn't exist. How would you?
I have a friend named Fred. Fred is capable of teleportation, entering parallel universes that we cannot enter, and invisibility. Prove to me Fred doesn't exist. You can scour the universe searching for him, he'll just go invisible or teleport to his other dimension.
Well, from a logical point of veiw, we would indeed be unable to prove your freind would exist. But to say that he does'nt exist, just because we can't prove he exists, would be false, would'nt it? And I mean come on, the Intergalactic Transportation Council would NEVER grant a teleportation license to a guy named FRED, get your facts straight!

Although it is true that the odds are beatible, and would likly explain why we are the only known forms of life within 10 billion lightyears that we can see (or whatever the number is), How does something come from nothing, and where truely was the beginning? How can something logically come out of nothing? If nothing existed in the beginning, how can some particles, of which to make the space, come into existance without being shaped or molded from some other force? As I stated, at some point something came from nothing. Either God did or the universe. If God is more powerful than the universe, and it's unlikely for a bunch of dead particles to come out of nowhere, then isn't it that much more unlikely that God could have come out of nowhere?
Actually, I would think it would be just about as immposible for anything to come out of nothing, as anything else, because we don't know that size, or what other factors would have anything to do with the difficulty of entering into existance from nothing do we? For instance: Space dust, or particles or whatever, would be a physical object, right? Ok, what does God consist of based upon what we beleive to know about him? It may, or may not be physical matter, I would guess something else if he has such ability to shape planets and stuff right? So the question would be, would physical matter be more likly to enter existance from nothing, or something else that we have no idea what it exists of?

this kinda brings up an interesting question in religion though, God says he has always been in existance. How do we know there were'nt things before god that he did'nt know about, or that the beggining of which he speaks is when he came into creation? Funny, Just thought of that.

I don't mean to give a cop-out answer, but... science will tell us one day. Just because it answers a question doesn't mean it is instantly right. I'd rather wait until we know and can prove the answers rather than jump the gun with answers that might be false. Otherwise, what we get will look a lot like phrenology.
Awwwwwww, COP OUT!!!!!!!

:smash: Smashy Smashy! :smash:

[EdvardMunch]

We humans tend to see things in a different light than what is sometimes needed to see the proof. I first did not really start on the path of Christianity because I wanted to live as a christian for all it's principles. I do now, but back then it was because I had nothing to lose. My life was at a terrible time, and nothing seemed to make sense anymore. There is an actual power in Christianiy, that people hear about all the time, but never truely realize, how real it is. Power, truth, and conviction of God are not things you see, it is;nt a science, it is something you feel, expereince, and realize. If you try to take a scientific aspect towards God, you obviously come up with nothing. When I first became Christian, I did'nt do it on some "well based, informed technical decision", I did it because it felt right. When I say right, I don't mean the type of right and wrong such as good and bad, I mean the type of, it fits, and it just is. Religion is something that people don't see with their eyes, they see it with their soul if you will. They experience it as if it's a sense they never knew they had, but they just know how to feel it. If you are looking through the pages of religion for factual data, your wasting your time. The reason Science and Religion, is that Science you can define by factual data, but not something you have much if any sense of. Religion is something that you can only learn by expereincing the full force of it. If you are the type of person to bound yourself only to facts and what you can see and touch right in front of you, then, I guess, it would probably be best if you did'nt waste your time, trying to follow a divine path, all the whole time trying to quantify or explain it.
The experience of religion is indeed very personal, as I have gathered from a lot of testimonies. I will leave that point with this fact (which I snagged from my post in the "Do we have a choice in our own fate?" thread):
"A related experiment performed later by Dr. Alvaro Pascual-Leone involved asking subjects to choose at random which of their hands to move. He found that by stimulating different hemispheres of the brain using magnetic fields it was possible to strongly influence which hand the subject picked. Normally right-handed people would choose to move their right hand 60% of the time, for example, but when the right hemisphere was stimulated they would instead choose their left hand 80% of the time (recall that the right hemisphere of the brain is responsible for the left side of the body, and the left hemisphere for the right). Despite the external influence on their decision-making, the subjects continued to report that they believed their choice of hand had been made freely."
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will

So, even if something seems so real to us, we can still be fooled.

If we need faith that the unproven did not exist? Q, would the unproven happen to classify in the catagory of unexplainable phenomina as well?
I don't follow you...
My argument was that we know something doesn't exist because we don't have evidence for it. We don't have faith that it doesn't exist, we know it doesn't exist.

Well, from a logical point of view, we would indeed be unable to prove your friend would exist. But to say that he doesn't exist, just because we can't prove he exists, would be false, wouldn't it?
Oops, I didn't mean for that to be hypothetical. Fred obviously doesn't exist, so how can you prove to me he doesn't exist?

And I mean come on, the Intergalactic Transportation Council would NEVER grant a teleportation license to a guy named FRED, get your facts straight!
Sigh... do your research. They do not issue licenses to people named Greg! Not Fred! :) (Although they didn't give one to me either. They said I didn't have enough teleportation practice, but how can I practice without a license?)

Actually, I would think it would be just about as immposible for anything to come out of nothing, as anything else, because we don't know that size, or what other factors would have anything to do with the difficulty of entering into existance from nothing do we? For instance: Space dust, or particles or whatever, would be a physical object, right? Ok, what does God consist of based upon what we beleive to know about him? It may, or may not be physical matter, I would guess something else if he has such ability to shape planets and stuff right? So the question would be, would physical matter be more likly to enter existance from nothing, or something else that we have no idea what it exists of?
If we have no idea what God is made of we can't theorize a probability of it coming out of nothing.
Nonetheless, if God is not made of anything from our world, how can He interact with it?

[Protosschick99]

Omg....This is so cool.....This is the first serious discussion topic I've seen with no flaming!!

Karma for the both of you! lolz :p

[GiaDragoness]

I don't follow you...
My argument was that we know something doesn't exist because we don't have evidence for it. We don't have faith that it doesn't exist, we know it doesn't exist.Well, what I was trying to say is like, how can things like supernatural phenomina happen, and people say it's just by logical means, and thus, would'nt they then have faith that there was no supernatural effect, even if Scienctific data and such had nothing on it whatsoever, and be classified as impossible?

Sigh... do your research. They do not issue licenses to people named Greg! Not Fred! :) (Although they didn't give one to me either. They said I didn't have enough teleportation practice, but how can I practice without a license?)Oops, My bad. :)

If we have no idea what God is made of we can't theorize a probability of it coming out of nothing.
Nonetheless, if God is not made of anything from our world, how can He interact with it? Interesting question, I have no idea. I guess we would have to find our answer with "Laws of supernatural matter 101" or something.

Another thing, I don't think scientists putting religious guys on the stand and ask the religious guys to prove their religion scientificly, and then counter their points scientificly. No fair, scientists are better at science than religious guys! That's why they're call scientists! :p lol

:smash: Smashy Smashy! :smash:

[chibi]

I was helping watch my best friend's niece the other day and she asked me the same question. I didn't really know what to say other than the same thing my dad told me when I was little and asked the same question.

So you know how when you bless yourself there is the father, son and the holy spirit. Well at one point in time God was the son and he had a father with the same name. When it was time for God to be a father he had a son named Jesus so that made him the "father" and Jesus the son. God's father just became a part of him.

This explanation is extremely confusing so I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't make sence. I've always thought of it this way. Even if our Grandparents and GreatGrandparents die, they are still a part of our lives in some way. We just constantly are changing roles. So God has kinda always been around and him and his son just keep the family tree going.

Like I said before the explanation is quite confusing :o

[Cygnus]

See, this is the kind of thing i don't understand. God is a subject that comes up very often here at this round table of intellectuals, yet, everytime, people demand solid proof. When they are given references from the bible, they say such as "that's what YOU think" or "any crakpot could write that at any time!." How can you demand proof of something like this? Are you honestly that lazy that you don't want to "waste your time" with it, trying to understand? You demand solid proof; if anything like an enourmas hand reached down out of the sky, or some such effect, who would need to have faith in God then? How would God truly measure people, by who really wanted to follow him in the first place, and who got on board just because they had to, to avoid a flaming hell of suffering?
It's just the way I look at the world I guess, I need to see the hand of god down and strike something down for me to see beyond the world. All it seems sometimes, no offence meant to you or anyone, is that you're all talk. I don't see titans battling in the sky. I see you and me. I see mortal bodies, not god's forgiveness. I need to see. I need the words to echo down from the heavens. My soul, if souls exist (but that's a different question for another day), is not just carelessly given out. I'll give my allegiance to the thing that can show me that's its real. Something that can prove to me that it's worth it. So far, the only thing that seems to show me that it exists is the world around. Thus, that's the thing I'm living for, life. But don't confuse living with worshiping. I go about my life living, if you get what I mean. So far no deity has really gone out of his/ her/ its way to show to me that what they say is worth it. I always have an open ear.

Now that I've explained myself I'll kind of talk about what you said here. You see, when I look at the bible I see a religious book, like any other religion. Not a holy book. You see, if one says that the Christian Bible is true based on it simply being written one must in turn then give every other religion the benifit of the doubt. Thus in turn all these different religions which are now 'true', that contradict themselves. Now you've gotten a bigger mess on your hands.

I want to clarify that I'm not "lazy" to try to understand a religion, it's just none of them have been proven with solid evidence. Sure there is historical evidence that the religions followers existed and certain events in such religious texts are true. It's just there's never been any actual deities been proven. No angels. No demons.

If heaven is truely as wonderous as it is said, why should people who are too damn lazy to have a little faith, people who think it is their RIGHT, and that they deserve an honest survey, be allowed in? NO. Heaven is not like things here on Earth. It takes a lot of sacrifice, hard work, and many times doing things you don't want to do, such as being humble, or apoligizing even though you were right, Being nice to someone in their hour of need, even though they would never do such a thing for you, etc.. Does eternal paradise sound like something that can be oh so easily acheived, that all you have to do is just so to church on sunday, or just say "i believe it's true", especially when you have the proff in front of you.
Again I ask you, what proof? I have a million different variations of heavens and hell, which one is the right one? There's tons of variations just of Christianity. Plus of course the road to heven doesn't sound easy... it's so that they're are so many roads. So many unproven roads. Should I pick the hardest path? Because their are a lot of religions that are more difficult to achieve paradise. The easiest? Which ones right?

Until then I'll be living on the path that I'm on. The path of life. So far, there have been no terrible pitfalls that no other men have faced. No angels, or gods or goddesses. Just life. So far it's worked. So far it's been proven.

The road to God, may be a long, narrow, and difficult, but, God is not like we are, this much is clear. God alwasy cares about people, and does'nt just get pissed off and wipe out an entire continent, then turn around and say "oops, maybe I should have counted to ten before thinking about that".
Again I don't mean to make you angry but... didn't your god do that once already? Back in his bronze age war god days?

Anyone who looks around us, can clearly see more than enough evidence already. How do you explain such miricles around you as "Normal"? You hear all the time of miraculous survivals, people healed when doctors said they would never walk again, and then they run in the olympics the very next year... Miricles are not just all these "oh that's so rare, nothing like that ever happens to real peolie like me". Wrong-o. Think about it: What are some things you take completely for granted, that you really can't even explian? Healing, gravity, light, sound, etc. We take alll thse things for granted, as "they are because they just are." You can't explain how they work, or even why. We just know that they do indeed work. How can you see so many things that you can't explain, then say "there is nothing higher than us." BS if I ever heard it.
Yes people healed. Those kinds of things. The stories of doctors who told a person that they would "never walk again", except extreme amounts of determination, physical therapy and intensive work gets them walking again. Miracles like that happen all the time. I hear of "miracles" of people surviving freak accidents too. Things like that happen to people. Even though they don't happen to "everybody", they can still happen to people. They could happen to me, or someone close I know. Healing, I can take for granted that, because medical science, the human body, human will, and just plain luck can come in handy. Gravity, so far it's worked on earth. So far it's kept our planet around the sun. Light and sound, as a man who is not deaf or blind I take those things for granted. I can help you understand how your body heals, how gravity affects us, and how light and sound work as well. But you'd have to listen to only my high school education of them. If you really want to know ask a professional.

These things exist though, beyond a doubt. Yet you then turn around and say "a higher power must be at work". You know beyond a fact that you can see, smell, taste, touch, and hear the world. You get pulled back down to earth. Your cuts mend. Those exist and are proven. Yet a higher power has yet to be proven. It hasn't yet shown it's existence. This doesn't mean I don't wonder if something else is out there, it's just that I know that these things exist. I can live in a world with only these things existing. I know that I can live in a world without a supreme being.

Cygnus, I think it is very wierd, on how you clearly explain that something higher than us exists, then deny that it exists latter in your same post. You say that there is a clear boundry that exists beyond our understanding, then you say you don't beleive in any supreme diety (which, would obviously have to exist outside this human-scape)? Could you please clarify just where your train of thought obviously derailed please?

Yeah you're right my thought process derailed there. Yet I did not state that beyond a doubt that a supreme being exists. I did say that we can never prove or disprove it's existence. I don't believe in this deity because it hasn't decided to prove itself in our world. Basically trying to get across that you can not prove this beings existence and at the same time I can not disprove this beings existence. Ontop of that a reality beyond ours where this being can exist or can not exist follows the same thing of being unable to be proven or disproven. But we have a reoccuring theme iis that this being doesn't seem to want to be in this world thus why should I believe in it? [I guess check out EdvardMunch's post to go even beyond what I said]

Continuing further, I believe in the things of this world. So far this being doesn't seem to want to exist in this world or even bother with it. So why should I believe in it then? I can though believe in everything else that exists, yet I can't grasp onto a being outside of our world. It's possible, yes. But it can't be proven nor has it decided to do anything to prove that it does (besides your religious book but I already explained the problems with that above). While this world can. Thus I believe in this world, this reality.

Hopefully that somewhat clears things up.

[Kopaka]

Now those are long responses.

[GiaDragoness]

Continuing further, I believe in the things of this world. So far this being doesn't seem to want to exist in this world or even bother with it. So why should I believe in it then? I can though believe in everything else that exists, yet I can't grasp onto a being outside of our world. It's possible, yes. But it can't be proven nor has it decided to do anything to prove that it does (besides your religious book but I already explained the problems with that above). While this world can. Thus I believe in this world, this reality.
So, you beleive in this world, and everything that happens in it, even though some things about it are still a mystery? This world exists, turely, but how and why? I mean, why anything? Why does the world and laws work the way they do? I was kinda refering to this about the laws of life question.

It is obvious that relgion and science clearly clash. They both operate on very different principles. One cannot really define science by religion, without getting results like salem witch trials. One cannot really define religion by science, without coming up with a thousand more mysteries, and crackpots all coming up claiming different things. It would seem science must be defined by scientific methods, and religion must be defined by faith, advanced philosophy, or something else we don't really understand yet.

Well then, it all comes down to what a person beleives. One thing wrong with people who think things like "religions are all equal", then look in their books, and see that it is immpossible for that to be true, then say none exists. Well, saying none exist is saying that you know for certain they don't exist. While no one can claim and completely prove that none exist, no one can either prove than any of them do exist. It probably all measures up to what you want to do with your life, and how you want to spend it. A strong question would be, that with your free will to beleive anything, would you be responsible no matter what happened in the end?

:smash: Smashy Smashy! :smash:

[Kopaka]

I would think so.

[Montgomery]

It comes down to person experiences. It comes down to the simple truths and simple ideas that dominate our lives. It comes down to human existence.

Know why humans are here? You don't. You may say we evolved. You're wrong. Here's why:

Evolution contents that species evolve in order to become superior, and in order to secure their own existence, barring outside factors (EG a massive bloody asteroid or something of that sort killing all the dinosaurs). But, they have NEVER done anything to undermine their own existence.

As we are now.

Thus said, the existence of intelligence in the universe is counter-evolutionary. This would explain why when we listen to the outside, we hear nothing. Just utter, mind-bending silence on all concievable and monitored bands of all shapes and sizes. Human beings are drawn to destroy their environment, in ways no other species does (and yes, I'm aware of certain things that do that, such as locusts, but they were all introduced into areas where they did not evolve, and are thus null from the argument).

Human beings burn things, we mine things, we pollute everything, we spread radiation, we destroy this planet. Why would we do that? We do not live in harmony on this planet, as other things do. We do not live out a specific role as a species, except to kill everything and destroy everything. We do not fit into the food chain.

Why did our genes change enough, in the ways they did, to make us the way we are? The macroevolution of human beings has yet to be proved (as has, in reality, the macroevolution of anything). Why did we get out of the trees, if the phrase will be allowed. You see, science cannot answer these questions. It never will be able to, because there are limits to human knowledge. There are limits to what we can discover. You can content that we will always continue discovering, we will always continue learning, but in reality, there are limits to what we can explore. We cannot see everything. We cannot look back in the past. We cannot see the beginning of the universe. The theories of science, are just that: theories. They are ideas - they are not gospel.

To finalise, why did we evolve? Why did we evolve to a form where our existence is, inevitably, doomed? Look at our modern world, and look at the path that we're on. Our chances for survival are, well, slim. Why would we doom ourselves, our food sources, and our world to such a fate? Because there is something out there other than simple survival. That something... is God.

PS: A very short answer to the actual question of this topic: Nothing. God is eternal, God is lasting. To Wikipedia:

God and eternity
Theists say that God is eternally existent. How this is understood depends on which definition of eternity is used. On the one hand, God may exist in eternity, a timeless existence where categories of past, present, and future just do not apply. On the other hand, God may exist for or through eternity, or at all times, having already existed for an infinite amount of time and being expected to continue to exist for an infinite amount of time.

Whichever definition of eternity is understood, it is common to observe that finite human beings cannot fully understand eternity, since it is either an infinite amount of the time we know or something other than the time and space we know. But for the infinite definition, there are parallels that give some notion of an infinity--of at least a potential infinity, or a series that begins and has not ended. A series of moments that has begun and not ended is potentially eternal by that definition.

Related to the notion of eternal existence is the concept of God as Creator, as a being completely independent of "everything else" that exists because he created everything else. (Contrast this with panentheism.) If this premise is true, than it follows that God is independent of both space and time, since these are properties of the universe. So according to this notion, God exists before time began, exists during all moments in time, and would continue to exist if somehow the universe and time itself were to cease to exist.

So therefore, God has always existed. Nothing was before God, because God is the only way the universe could have existed. God is the only way that we could have existed.

God is infinite. God is truth. God is the answer.

And as for our role here, it is ineffable. It is unknowable. Our role is merely to act as we do, to think as we may, and to do the things we do. But there is always a higher purpose for it.

[GiaDragoness]

Well well, that did a pretty good job of smashing up alot of other arguments. Hey, Smashing? THAT'S MY JOB! DIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!

:smash: Smashy Smashy! :smash:

[Cygnus]

So, you beleive in this world, and everything that happens in it, even though some things about it are still a mystery? This world exists, turely, but how and why? I mean, why anything? Why does the world and laws work the way they do? I was kinda refering to this about the laws of life question.First I'd like you to explain what exactly define as unexplained. Do you mean something like how light or gravity works or something like a ghost (I'm getting that you mean the former and not the latter)? Sure we might not know exactly how these things work, but I do know that they do exist. Beyond a doubt I can see that they exist, beyond a doubt I know that they are here. You know the what, where, and when part if you're getting what I mean. Yet on the other hand we don't have the what, where, and when of a supreme deity. That's my main problem with the whole god/ goddess/ supreme something idea.

Well then, it all comes down to what a person beleives. One thing wrong with people who think things like "religions are all equal", then look in their books, and see that it is immpossible for that to be true, then say none exists. Well, saying none exist is saying that you know for certain they don't exist. While no one can claim and completely prove that none exist, no one can either prove than any of them do exist. It probably all measures up to what you want to do with your life, and how you want to spend it. A strong question would be, that with your free will to beleive anything, would you be responsible no matter what happened in the end?
Gia, with the first part you hit it on the nail. When I first popped in the thread I told you what I believed as you did when you have (more on this at the end of my post). Let me explain what I meant by the all religions being looked at as equals so you're not biased (like you and I are). What I'm trying to say is, that if I assume that your god is true, because you say so, then why can't I do that with any religion? Although the idea is absurd, it's basically what the problem is, of determing one god "over" another.

Now onto how I'm going into how I live my life, I like you follow the basic morals of western civilization. I don't kill, steal, or rape. I spend my life as some teenagers do as well. I have a part-time job, like to relax with friends, have a relationship with a girl, work in family, participate in extra-curricular activites, and will be going back to school again. I'm a run-of-the-mill person in the United States, the person who won't make the papers for doing something horrible and am mostly known by only my friends and family.

Of course as well I understand that I live by my actions and my free will. I will die, I can not change that. But I can be the best person I can be in society at the same time, or try to. Although I won't be remembered my actions have affect on many people, small and large over the course of my life. Those are the consequences of our actions that need to be worried about. How much you affect others whether it be for positive or negative reasons.

It comes down to person experiences. It comes down to the simple truths and simple ideas that dominate our lives. It comes down to human existence.That it does indeed, we exist. But what other simple truths and ideas exist?

Know why humans are here? You don't. You may say we evolved. You're wrong. Here's why:Incorrect. Evolution does not explain "why" humans are here, but rather it attempts to show the what, where, when, and how parts. And I can already see that this is going to be a long and bumpy road ahead of us...

Evolution contents that species evolve in order to become superior, and in order to secure their own existence, barring outside factors (EG a massive bloody asteroid or something of that sort killing all the dinosaurs). But, they have NEVER done anything to undermine their own existence.Incorrect part two. Evolution does explains that species evolve due to a series of mutations and natural selection, slowly weeding out weaker species until the stronger one survives. It does not state though, that these creatures can not undermine their existence because many in fact do.

Let's say this is a closed enviroment where the animals can not move. There are two species on this island, Species A (a carnivore) and Species B (a herbivore). Carnivores are known to eat as much as they need of herbivores. As the predator population grows and kills the herbivores in ever increasing quantities until a point where the decreased herbivore population can no longer support the predator population. Suddenly over the course of a few years, there will be a die-back of the predator species because all of them can no longer live off the much smaller herivore species and because they are isolated on an island where they can find no other food. Many of the predators will die leaving a smaller pedator population. The Herbivore population will then rebound and increase rapidly and after awhile, with the new abundance of game the predator species will slowly grow in number again as well, restarting the process anew.

Of course that's an oversimplified explanation, but it happens in the world all the time. Throw in multiple species and creatures higher and lower on the food chain and suddenly you have an eco-system. Sometimes even the best evolved species can be too good for their own good, if you catch my drift. But yet you contend this could never happen, but ironically it does. Now just expand this explanation to the whole world and fit humans into the mix and you could start to understand what might happen.

As we are now.You don't even need half a brain to understand that... As I mentioned only a few sentences ago, we're following natural selection. Soon or later, our enviroment will no longer be able to support such a growing, reasource consuming population and eventually we'll face the consequences.

Thus said, the existence of intelligence in the universe is counter-evolutionary. This would explain why when we listen to the outside, we hear nothing. Just utter, mind-bending silence on all concievable and monitored bands of all shapes and sizes. Human beings are drawn to destroy their environment, in ways no other species does (and yes, I'm aware of certain things that do that, such as locusts, but they were all introduced into areas where they did not evolve, and are thus null from the argument). Incorrect part three and four. First the evolution of human beings is not counter-evolutionary as I mentioned earlier. Natural selection has allowed us to use our intellegence to become the ultamite predators on land. We though are like any species, we live to survive and continue the species. All species though are subject to the limit of their enviroment. Now onto the thing about locusts. They're found all over the world minus the cold regions of the artic and the antartic. They've adapted to almost every enviroment the planet has to offer which makes them thus not null from the argument. They, like us, and any other species on the planet are all subject to the example. Thus your argument stating that no other species can be likened to humans wandon destruction and use of their enviroment, is flawed and incorrect.

Human beings burn things, we mine things, we pollute everything, we spread radiation, we destroy this planet. Why would we do that? We do not live in harmony on this planet, as other things do. We do not live out a specific role as a species, except to kill everything and destroy everything. We do not fit into the food chain.Incorrect part five. We live out our specific role as a species to survive and repoduce in order to expand and grow our species. The species Homo sapien is currently on the top of the food chain of Earth, the ultamite predator due to our intellegence. The only problem is, sometimes being too well adapted can prove to be fatal. We're pushing our enviroment to the limit and once we go beyond a point where our species can no longer be supplied by the enviroment, like the predator example there will be consequences. Once a species can no longer exist in an enviroment properly, the species has three options. It can die, adapt, or move. The third option though is well out of our league at this point. So we're stuck with the former two options.

Why did our genes change enough, in the ways they did, to make us the way we are? The macroevolution of human beings has yet to be proved (as has, in reality, the macroevolution of anything). Why did we get out of the trees, if the phrase will be allowed. You see, science cannot answer these questions.Again, as I stated earlier, evolution can not explain the why, but can explain the who, what, when, and how. Again, our genes changed, we changed and evolved and adapted to our enviroment. Thus humans became the ultamite predators the Earth has yet to see. Science can explain this, and has gone to show this time and time again by presentiving evidence of natural selection, gradual changes in remains, and genetic changes (just to name a few). You can look around and see it. And at the end of the day, one must realize that in the end we're still animals and still subject to the rules of the game.

It never will be able to, because there are limits to human knowledge. There are limits to what we can discover. You can content that we will always continue discovering, we will always continue learning, but in reality, there are limits to what we can explore. We cannot see everything. We cannot look back in the past. We cannot see the beginning of the universe. The theories of science, are just that: theories. They are ideas - they are not gospel.The whole reason why we've gotten this far with science is learning and questioning. So far we haven't even explored all whole world and there are still so many different species to discover in a jungle, desert, or beneath the sea. We've only begun to understand ourselves, this world, the universe. The quest for answers will never end with science. Now onto the part about theories. You got it totally right. Theories are not gospel, they can always change as new evidence and experiments arise. Theories are always changing and adapting to what we know. It's a never ending process.

To finalise, why did we evolve? Why did we evolve to a form where our existence is, inevitably, doomed? Look at our modern world, and look at the path that we're on. Our chances for survival are, well, slim. Why would we doom ourselves, our food sources, and our world to such a fate? Because there is something out there other than simple survival.Our existence is not, inevitably doomed as you say. We can adapt to our world if we desire. The majority of our race though, regrettably will not. Survival could be slim as you say, but in the end that's the stakes of playing in the world. We're not fated to die out, we still have a chance to adapt to our world, it's our choice. Intellegence has given us a little more weight in deciding who lives and who dies. If you wish to believe that there is something out there, beyond survival, be my guest. But that in no way means that we're not subject to what happens to all things in a world. It doesn't mean we can just pass Go, collect our two hundred dollars and then skip out on jail too. We're still live in an enclosed enviroment, Earth, and in the end are subject to all the problems any other species faces.

That something... is God.Again, believe as you wish. But understand that this does not change a thing, we're all still animals. We're all still in the game, it's still a dog-eat-dog world. Just now we can take the world down with us if we take too big of a bite.

PS: A very short answer to the actual question of this topic: Nothing. God is eternal, God is lasting.For the third time, believe as you will. If you find comfort in believing in things beyond this world so be it. I on the other hand find comfort in knowing that I'm simply alive.

To Wikipedia:You had to bust out Wikipedia didn't you? You had too. Well two can play at that game good sir (BTW, for sake for the sanity of readers I won't quote the thing you posted).

The cosmological argument depends on several assumptions. Most objections center on two of them:

All events are causal.
The First Cause is [usually the Christian] God.
A third assumption is that our universe has not "always" existed. This is still an open question, although the standard Big Bang cosmology is consistent with it. Eternal existence, the "always there" assumption, does not eliminate the problem of origin anyway.

Leibniz stated the problem in his conclusion, although his terminology included some assumptions. If his Principle of Sufficient Reason is indeed universally applicable, then the First Thing must bear the reason for its existence within itself. Leibniz was well versed in the mathematics of his day, but he may not have known that his condition can hold only if the First Thing is the resolution of a paradox. Furthermore, there must be sufficient reason to select that one form of resolution. Either there must be only one possible resolution or the paradox must be resolved by all possible forms of resolution, for any selection among them would be random. No one has demonstrated a paradox that can be resolved only by the existence of the Abrahamic God.

It can be shown that Nothing is a paradox, but also that almost anything could resolve it. The conclusion is essentially that all possible worlds must exist if the Principle of Sufficient Reason always holds. If we accept the theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory) that our world is possible, then the only question is whether it requires a God to maintain it. We do not know if a God actually belongs to any possible world, so the God hypothesis requires strong evidence. That is outside the domain of the cosmological argument.

If the Principle of Sufficient Reason does not hold, then the selection among potential alternatives must be random. Most of us believe our world is possible because we seem to live in it, but God is an unlikely result of random generation.So therefore, God has always existed. Nothing was before God, because God is the only way the universe could have existed. God is the only way that we could have existed.

God is infinite. God is truth. God is the answer.

And as for our role here, it is ineffable. It is unknowable. Our role is merely to act as we do, to think as we may, and to do the things we do. But there is always a higher purpose for it.If you wish to belive in higher purposes, in a being supreme and unknowable then believe as you will. I think this is the fourth time I've mentioned this right? Nevertheless, the purpose to life is simple: It's to live. That's you're higher purpose - to survive and reproduce. But because we're intellegent there's so much more to us.

To survive it's best that we're happy, since we're social animals that means we interact with each other, we have relationships with others. Whether they be simple friendships or romantic relationships it goes either way. It's the way we work. That's just a simple part of what intellegence has furthered and extented from being animals. They operate in packs and have their lone wolfs, we do too. In the end we're still animals. Just unique like any other species in it's own way.

Well well, that did a pretty good job of smashing up alot of other arguments. Hey, Smashing? THAT'S MY JOB! DIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!

:smash: Smashy Smashy! :smash: We're just getting this party started! Come on did you think this would be that easy? :p

Anyways I look forward to much more furious debate and sorry it took me a few days to get this monster done!

[singo]

wow, long post there


[QUOTE=Cygnus] Incorrect part two. Evolution does explains that species evolve due to a series of mutations and natural selection, slowly weeding out weaker species until the stronger one survives. It does not state though, that these creatures can not undermine their existence because many in fact do.
QUOTE]

just thought id underline this point with an example.....
saber-toothed tigers and big hefty rhino type things with the blunt horns (have you seen "ice age"?)

the sabers evolve big teeth....so the rhino things evolve thick skins.....so the sabers evolve BIGGER teeth......thicker skins....even bigger teeth....even thicker skin......and so on, it finishes with the tigers unable to lift their head due to the massive toothyness and the rhinos unable to move due to having several tonnes of hefty thick skin. wherupon both species die out.

this has happened five times in the last 65 million years (post-dinosaur)

so they DO undermine their existance


as a side point this means the whole creationism myth is shot to hell for a start (unless god has a sense of humour and put fossils there to give archaologists funny ideas) 5 thousand years? pfft.

[Montgomery]

First I'd like you to explain what exactly define as unexplained. Do you mean something like how light or gravity works or something like a ghost (I'm getting that you mean the former and not the latter)? Sure we might not know exactly how these things work, but I do know that they do exist. Beyond a doubt I can see that they exist, beyond a doubt I know that they are here. You know the what, where, and when part if you're getting what I mean. Yet on the other hand we don't have the what, where, and when of a supreme deity. That's my main problem with the whole god/ goddess/ supreme something idea.
So you don't know how these things work. Fine. Neither do I. I don't know how God works, I can't see God, but I still know He's there. You can't see gravity (seriously... thats just stupid), but you know it's there. The same applies to God. Nobody can try and smash my arguement that whenever I pray for things seriously, I always get them. Always. And, provided I'm not being a selfish prat in the process. Beyond a doubt, I can see how He works, even if they are mysterious ways. And besides, we don't have the what where and then of pretty much anything in this life - and the evidence we do give to answer those questions you just say "Oh, it was false! Made up! Fiction!"

Now onto how I'm going into how I live my life, I like you follow the basic morals of western civilization. I don't kill, steal, or rape. I spend my life as some teenagers do as well. I have a part-time job, like to relax with friends, have a relationship with a girl, work in family, participate in extra-curricular activites, and will be going back to school again. I'm a run-of-the-mill person in the United States, the person who won't make the papers for doing something horrible and am mostly known by only my friends and family.Well, guess what, buddy? Those "Morals of Western Civilisation" you speak of were formed by Judeo-Christian moral values. The secular values of society are actual rooted in religion. Science does not have morals. Religion does. All society's values, everywhere, are rooted in religious respect (whatever that religion may be) for the human person.

And my "We didn't purely evolve" theory is just that: a theory. Never tested it before. And I do realise that there is bound to be major flak against it, but so be it.

The quest for answers will never end with science.Which is why we have religion. Need I say more?

unless god has a sense of humour and put fossils there to give archaologists funny ideasAnd why wouldn't God have a funny sense of humour? It would make perfect sense. I find the universe quite amusing. I bet He tells jokes that would make even the most staunchly serious person piss themselves laughing. I intend to ask Him that someday. ;)

as a side point this means the whole creationism myth is shot to hell for a startOnly if you take it literally. Atheists always seem to assume that we take the Bible completely literally. That's idiocy. Some do, I'll grant you that, but not the vast majority of us. The Bible really only makes sense if you take it metaphorically. For instance, did you know that the Book of Revelations is not about the Apocalypse, but is actually a massive metaphor for the suffering of the early Christians in the Roman Empire? For instance, the number 666, the Number of the Beast, is actually all the roman numerals in the name "Caesar Nero" (in Latin) added together. If you want more tidbits like that, perhaps you should speak to my religion teacher. He's got plenty.

And that little example of yours, singo? That was pretty stupid. Seriously. It's like "Guns and Armour" applied to evolution... and the Guns and Armour Theory is completely retarded. (Weapons development is exponential, not linear. I could start an arguement on that, but I really don't want to. Let's stay focused, people.)

And if you want an example of how God has a sense of humour, read Good Omens. It's by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman. Abosolutely hilarious.

Again, as I stated earlier, evolution can not explain the why, but can explain the who, what, when, and how.
Religion explains the "why". Science cannot. That alone justifies religion, because it answers questions science can't. You can't argue with that. You said it yourself. And besides, "why" is the hardest and most important question of all.

Bring it on, punk atheist ;)

[OboeGuru]

So you don't know how these things work. Fine. Neither do I. I don't know how God works, I can't see God, but I still know He's there. You can't see gravity (seriously... thats just stupid), but you know it's there. The same applies to God. Nobody can try and smash my arguement that whenever I pray for things seriously, I always get them. Always. And, provided I'm not being a selfish prat in the process. Beyond a doubt, I can see how He works, even if they are mysterious ways. And besides, we don't have the what where and then of pretty much anything in this life - and the evidence we do give to answer those questions you just say "Oh, it was false! Made up! Fiction!"
First off, don't go comparing God and gravity, they're two completely different principles. Of course you can't SEE gravity, but CAN understand the natural forces that cause gravity to exist, which is the equivalent of being able to see a person/place/thing. So you always get everything you pray for... prove to me that it wouldn't have happened anyways. There are these things called coincidences. I know a few people who have prayed for unselfish things and have NOT gotten them, I think that's evidence that a God doesn't exist.

Well, guess what, buddy? Those "Morals of Western Civilisation" you speak of were formed by Judeo-Christian moral values. The secular values of society are actual rooted in religion. Science does not have morals. Religion does. All society's values, everywhere, are rooted in religious respect (whatever that religion may be) for the human person.
I don't think anyone is trying to refute that the morals of Western Civilization are rooted in religion, I don't thing there are many socially-acceptable moral sets that aren't. HOWEVER: that does not mean you have to be religious to follow them. The morals were founded centuries ago, and you can't possibly contest that the same exact moral set as was founded exists today. Religious morals have changed as a result of scientific growth.

The quest for answers will never end with science.
Which is why we have religion. Need I say more?
I'm pretty sure you read that entirely wrong, Mongomery. What is meant by this sentence is that science, while answering questions, raises more in the process, so that there is a never-ending stream of questions associated with science. And your response is what makes me so adamant about how full of holes religion is. Religion exists to attempt to answer the questions that science can't at the moment; it exist to give people the feeling of knowing the answer when they really don't.

Only if you take it literally. Atheists always seem to assume that we take the Bible completely literally. That's idiocy. Some do, I'll grant you that, but not the vast majority of us. The Bible really only makes sense if you take it metaphorically. For instance, did you know that the Book of Revelations is not about the Apocalypse, but is actually a massive metaphor for the suffering of the early Christians in the Roman Empire?
Metaphor this, metaphor that. Honestly, the only reason you have to take the Bible metaphorically these days is because science has disproven the literal meanings of so many of the stories. To maintain credibility, the Christians had to strat preaching "You have to interpret the Bible, not read it as it is." The Christians are so full of crap.
For centuries, they upheld the Ptolemaic Model of the Universe (which is supported by literal interpretation of the Bible). For those unaware, that's the Geocentric (earth-centered) Model. Then our buddy Galileo came along, with Copernicus and a few others before him, challenging those beliefs by taking measurements of the stars. And what happened to Galileo when he found conclusive proof that the Christians' beloved Ptolemaic Model was wrong? They censured him and put him under house arrest.

Religion explains the "why". Science cannot. That alone justifies religion, because it answers questions science can't. You can't argue with that. You said it yourself. And besides, "why" is the hardest and most important question of all.
Religion explains the "why," yes, albiet with absolutely nothing to back it up. Just the word of the Christian hierarchy and the "honor" of the guy(s) that wrote the Bible.
Science can't explain the "why" yet because our scientific development has only come so far. If it weren't for the Christian oppression in the Dark Ages, maybe our science would be advanced enough by now to account for the "why." As it stands, religion is at fault for pressing back the thing that can and will eventually prove it all wrong.

Bring it on, punk Christian.

[Montgomery]

So what? Your point? We still have answers. You have none. You said it yourself. All you contend is that sometime in the future, that you'll find out the answers.

Guess what? You'll be dead.

Oh! Heavens to Betsy, did I pop that magical word? Death, death, death. You won't know the answers, because you'll be dead. Unless, of course, barring divine intervention (which you certainly will not get), you live to be 3094 years old. Because seriously, there is no way science can disprove the existence of God. All you can say is...

I know a few people who have prayed for unselfish things and have NOT gotten them, I think that's evidence that a God doesn't exist.Ahh, the so-called "Problem of Evil" argument. Which, by the way, is complete bullshit. Well, the reason these things happen is because they test us. They test our mettle as human beings, they test our morals, they test our beliefs. If someone can pull through such tests intact, then they are better people for it. If they don't... well, then you're screwed. People say, "Well, so-and-so died, so I don't believe in God because why would He do that?" Well face it, folks, death is inevitable. And if you think God is going to spare you any mercy because you had to face the facts of existence, then think again.

And as for my personal experience, the reason I get what I ask for is because I don't constantly pester God like some people do. I ask for what I need, when I need it. And only when I believe there is no chance of getting it through normal means. I get what I ask for. Many people do. Some do not. Perhaps because they do not need it, perhaps because it is not meant to be, perhaps for some ineffable reason.

As for the existence of God, I've got the biggest proof of all: The continued existence of the human race. Note the word: continued. The fact that we haven't all died from nuclear flames (from the nuclear bombs that science so blindly constructed) is proof to me that God exists. The fact that the atheist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics was dragged down to ruin, that Nazi Germany did not triumph, that the South did not win the American Civil War, that serial killers are caught, that we do not have anarchy, that... pretty much everything has happened, is proof enough. This is probably the best of all possible worlds. When you look at all the things throughout history, you realise that things could always have been much worse. You say, "Oh, but the world sucks! Wahhh!" Well face it again, folks, it could be a shitload worse. The reason these things have not happened is because the guidance of God helps along those who actually make decisions - EG, not scientists. It is politicians and generals who rule the world, not scientists. You think you're so high and mighty, but everything you do can be vetoed by those same, God-fearing people. Look at Bush. However much I loathe his politics, the man is still a believer. I give him credit for that, among few other (good) things.

And if you want proof that these things wouldn't have happened anyway, I can't give you that. I tend to think of God as tipping the scales of probability: as Einstein said, "God does not play dice."


The quest for answers will never end with science.Which is why we have religion. Need I say more?I'm pretty sure you read that entirely wrong, Mongomery. First of all, it's Montgomery, as in Field Marshal Sir Bernard Law Montgomery, First Viscount of Alamein. :rolleyes: And no, I did not. You see, because those answers are provided. Science does not provide answers - for every answer it gives, it creates two more questions. So for true finality, you need religion. It fills in all the holes in the scientific theories, everything that cannot be explained.

Religion explains the "why," yes, albiet with absolutely nothing to back it up. Just the word of the Christian hierarchy and the "honor" of the guy(s) that wrote the Bible.
Science can't explain the "why" yet because our scientific development has only come so far. If it weren't for the Christian oppression in the Dark Ages, maybe our science would be advanced enough by now to account for the "why." As it stands, religion is at fault for pressing back the thing that can and will eventually prove it all wrong.And you're saying that there was not oppression under the atheist regime of the Soviet Union - in paticular, Josef Stalin? And you have absolutely no evidence to say that "religion will be proved all wrong". That's complete and utter fucking bullshit (pardon my French). Science can never disprove the existence of God. Ever. Science cannot peer beyond your earthly constraints. Religion can. You chalk up all spiritual experiences to "self-delusion", but guess what? That's exactly what you're doing by blocking 'em out. And as I said, you won't be alive to see science "disprove" all religion, as it is utterly impossible to do, because you will be, and I quote,



Guess what? You'll be dead.


I can keep going at this pace for a looooooong time.

[singo]

Nobody can try and smash my arguement

watch me


that whenever I pray for things seriously, I always get them. Always.

really? or is it that you only remember it when that happens?....if you pray for something and it happens then you will say "wow, it really happened" and remember it. if it doesnt come true then you quietly forget it. the brain is good at things like that


And my "We didn't purely evolve" theory is just that: a theory. Never tested it before. And I do realise that there is bound to be major flak against it, but so be it.



Which is why we have religion. Need I say more?

And why