Imbalances?

[Nedech]

Ok lately i've been reading some interviews on wcreplays.com and also their forum.
And lots of people actually complain about UD and not NE.
'Little advantage for each race but only Undead is pure imba!'
That was from an interview with ReminD and i also watched some replay that Pozerran posted(?) where the observers spammed that UD is imba. I've also seen several other replays where they claims that UD is imba, and some the pros claims that people think NE is imbalanced because they got so many unit combinations..

I just want to know what exactly is imbalanced and WHY. I know about the wells, dotts,dryads and DH XD, but how comes some of the pros says they're not imba? And UD is.. is it because that specific race is a bad matchup for them? Im just curios... My english ain't my main language, but i hope you understand it anyway:)

[Yoda]

I'm not sure what part of undead is imba apart from the destroyers. The DK can be annoying and so can stats, but they are not really imba.

[cole]

DK Lich is imbalanced at higher levels but other than that UD is pretty much fine. Just maybe stats and roys could use a small nerf. NE and HU though are extremely strong. They are arguably the strongest races. Strongest meaning most lame strats and imbalanced units...Ex: slow, brill aura, WEs, militia, towers, DH, dotts, wells, dryads, etc, etc, etc.

[thefazant]

ud v hu (in favor of ud) and orc v ud (in favor of orc) are the most imbalanced matchups in the game, so in this way, you could call ud an 'imbalanced' race, both in a positive and negative way for ud. ne v ud is imo pretty balanced, one of the best balanced mus.
so for ud, one very positive matchup, one negative, and one neutral.
human the strongest race in the game?
where do you get this from?
ne could be the strongest, ne v ud is pretty balanced, hu v ne is pretty perfectly balanced, and ne v orc is hard for orc, so two neutral matchups and one positive.
i'd put orc pretty high too, orc v ud is pretty easy, hu v orc comes close to perfect balance, ne v orc is a bitch tho, one very positive mu, one neutral and one negative
for human, probably the best balanced race, seeing as how two of their matchups are very nicely balanced, but theyve got to deal with hu v ud, so two neutral matchups, but one very negative.

[cole]

Your post was really dumb. HU vs Orc incredibly balanced? There are so many lame strats HU can rape orc with...Mass summon/caster, straight tower rush, fl tower rush, defend burrow rape, etc. etc. And ne tends to rape UD most of the time.

[thefazant]

ok, every single matchup is imbalanced
youre really such a cocky retard who completely overrates his own skill
if you cant beat mass summon/caster as orc, then off course its an imbalanced matchup for you, every single human goes mass summon/caster vs orc

[cole]

ok, every single matchup is imbalanced
youre really such a cocky retard who completely overrates his own skill
if you cant beat mass summon/caster as orc, then off course its an imbalanced matchup for you, every single human goes mass summon/caster vs orc

lol all i say is your post is dumb and suddenly im a "cocky retard" who "overrates hus own skill". No not every Hu goes mass summon caster vs orc. Some use towers and FL first or try using tier 3 vs orc which can work really well too. The term "cocky retard" is really funny though. Lets think about this. A retard is what, someone with a mental disability? Ok so i have mental disability and im cocky about having it? Is that what your trying to say? Well see i dont even play war3, because like you said im a cocky retard and havent yet mastered the ability of putting my war3 cd into the cd rom drive.

[Revelade]

Haha, cole says his post is dumb and all of a sudden fazant says:

"youre really such a cocky retard who completely overrates his own skill"

TAKE A FUCKING OPINION. Fazant acts like he has a bone up his ass (probably prozerran's) just because someone disagrees with him.

[wa123]

unless u take the wrong unit to counter your enemy's force such as arc vs taurant,
4 races are well balanced.

[cole]

unless u take the wrong unit to counter your enemy's force such as arc vs taurant,
4 races are well balanced.

lol. Im not really sure what arc vs taurant is. So i cant say whether or not your post is wrong,rofl.

[Lordshadowbane]

ok, every single matchup is imbalanced
youre really such a cocky retard who completely overrates his own skill
if you cant beat mass summon/caster as orc, then off course its an imbalanced matchup for you, every single human goes mass summon/caster vs orc

HU>>>Orc. Unless you can pull off a high level chainwave, then HU will destroy orc.
HU can, mass summon/caster, tower/expo, fast tech to griffs, or go rifle/caster. All Orc can do is go grunt/raider (and maybe a few shamans/sws). The only one that Orc can beat is rifle/caster...

[xodkrm]

Archamge, MK, Paladin combo.
Archmage's brilliance aura, Mk's bolt, Paladin's heal.

[cole]

Well towers are REALLY imbalanced so yea.

[GenocideAlive]

DH is imba. One half-minus and tons of pluses. In practice, there are like two heroes than can take on the DH at equal level without just getting violated.

Dryads are imba. They give shit exp, they move 350, they're ranged, they slow, they're magic immune, they can target dispel, and they're dirt-motherfucking cheap.

NE v HU : 55 vs 45
NE v UD : 55 vs 45
UD v O: 35 vs. 65
UD v HU : 60 vs 40
O v HU : 50 vs 50 (I can give you advice if you need, Cole. ;) )
O v NE : 60 vs 40

And largely, the only people that bitch about UD are HUs because destroyers + tri hero spell dmg are an all-purpose buttfuck.

You pretty much have to assume that they're going destroyers in order to keep yourself from getting reamed, and if they switch it up and do something else you've can have problems real fast.

ok, every single matchup is imbalanced
youre really such a cocky retard who completely overrates his own skill I laughed until I choked. :)
Fazant acts like he has a bone up his ass (probably prozerran's) just because someone disagrees with him. Thanks for your contribution to the thread--that amounts to a gossip column.

Get a sex change and confirm everybody's suspicions.

[GroG]

the only problem i've ever had ovhu is when they do am/fl or am/bm footie/caster tower push right after tier 2, that's really hard for me to stop. otherwise, I think ovhu is fine, and pretty much agree with what genocide said for the win % on race MU's.

[Prozerran]

Fazant acts like he has a bone up his ass (probably prozerran's) just because someone disagrees with him.

How amusing... I have yet to even post in this thread and I'm accused of fucking Fazant in the ass... that's... well, sick really.

On topic now...

Blizzard does have a tendency to favor Human in its RTS games. In Starcraft, Terrans have the Siege Tank, in War 3, Towers, Militia (the only worker unit that can also sub in as a third of a footman), Brilliance Aura (maybe, I can't justify this until Tier 3), and that's just for starters.

But all in all, it's a pragmatic difference once you're playing the game. Only when people consistently abuse these things does the game become imbalanced (like 4KTOD's cheesy fast-expo/ mass towers/ mass siege chaos), and thankfully we don't see it happening nearly as often now because of patching. Is the DH powerful? Yes! Is the DH IMBA? That's debatable - but we can make a case for both.

As far as UD is concerned, I think the issue isn't whether UD is imbalanced, but rather if there may be a particular aspect of the race that could be or is being abused. I have seen no such occurance of abuse, but that doesn't mean it isn't out there.

[GenocideAlive]

Is the DH powerful? Yes! Is the DH IMBA? That's debatable - but we can make a case for both.
I promise you, any case you can make for the DH not being overpowered, I can blow out of the water.

[cole]

Well DH is incredibly fucked up. Insane dps, move speed, and a spell that helps prevent him from being nuked while having a passive ability that helps prevent him from being hurt physically. I just sorta find that ironic.

OvsHU becomes really imbalanced when towers and such come into play. I still dont have a solid counter to that gay HU straight tower rush strat. Though ive come up with some pretty neat ideas.

On a side note these insults sound like something youd hear at middle school. "Ur wrong" "no ur wrong" "u a cocky retarted, u know good at this game". Im just kind of surprised someone has yet to call me a doo doo head.

[Prozerran]

Im just kind of surprised someone has yet to call me a doo doo head.

You're a Doo Doo Head.

There.

You've now been called a Doo Doo Head.

[cole]

You're a Doo Doo Head.

There.

You've now been called a Doo Doo Head.

no u.

[wa123]

no u.

lol, u r.

[Revelade]

Removed.

[GenocideAlive]

Geno stop bitching and play the game. You whine like when Proz bones you in the ass for your birthday. Oh look, another unprompted ass sex reference. You sure like talking about homos. Sour grapes?
Make warmill required for grunts, JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER RACE. Uhm? The only race that requires a lumber building for its melee is NE, and that's because they get ranged first instead. What the hell are you talking about? Keep in mind, I do realize that you rarely have any clue as to what the hell you're talking about.
Give Orc an air unit that doesn't abolish air entirely JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER RACE. Bats don't work on heavy air worth shit; ironically, heavy air is what totally fucks Orc over. If you ever manage to kill a chim or frost wyrm or something with a bat, fucking pat yourself on the back. Not to mention that bats take a good chunk of time to build.
Remove ensnare use on heroes, hero holders should be on other heroes, JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER RACE. Cyclone?

You're kind of stupid for someone passing out balance changes.

[Insert generic homosexual attack here]

[mAnbimanimanimA]

Give Orc an air unit that doesn't abolish air entirely JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER RACE.
You forgot about GYROCOPTERS!!!!!!!11111111111

omg lol!

[xodkrm]

MK is imba.

[cole]

Orc

Make warmill required for grunts, JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER RACE.
Give Orc four upgrades, JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER RACE.
Give Orc an air unit that doesn't abolish air entirely JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER RACE.
Make Warmill required to build a beastiary JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER RACE.
Remove ensnare use on heroes, hero holders should be on other heroes, JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER RACE.

Was this a joke or a serious post? Warmill required for grunts? lol. So orc can only build peons tier 1 until they build a warmill. Im guessing this nerf orc section was a joke though?

[GenocideAlive]

Was this a joke or a serious post? Warmill required for grunts? lol. So orc can only build peons tier 1 until they build a warmill. Im guessing this nerf orc section was a joke though?
No, he's serious. Revelade is an HU RT noob that quit WC about 6 mos. ago. He frequently posts and argues the dumbest senseless shit and then throws in homosexual references to taste. You can generally expect retarded crap like this from him.

[Revelade]

Removed.

[xodkrm]

Nerf orcs? Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.
Yes, ensnare could use a tiny little nerf, but in general, orcs need a huge buff.
Not as in stats, but they need better spell counters, and more effective unit spells.

[Yoda]

I'm going to go through everything I find imbalanced at the moment, which I can think of:

Dotts are balanced, in my opinion, except maybe Faerie Fire lasts a little too long. However they become imbalanced against orc since orc does not have a single anti-caster which is immune to magic (and thus cyclone)... If anyone tried mass dotts against another race, then they would easily lose. Just take etheralness off spirit walkers and make them immune to magic.

Seige Tanks have fortified armour it seems for "realism" reasons, and not for balance reasons. They are very difficult to kill because of this, except if you're orcs (raiders => ensnare ftw), or humans. NE and UD seige is pretty dodgy. And you can't win a base destroying contest because they would have massed three million towers in their base. Its a beatable strategy, sure enough, but its still imbalanced. Seige Tanks need a different armour setting.

Dyrads seem to be better anti-air than they are anti-caster. Slow poison should become autocast with 2 mana cost /hit, and only poison and not slow. They also need to give more experience.

Bears are OK, however Roar increases damage by too much. Maybe 20% increase, or even 15.

The Blademaster's cooldown for Windwalk should start AFTER he has broken the Windwalk and done the bonus damage. Right now the cooldown is almost redundant. He and the DH need another nerf in some way.

All autocast anti-casters should autodispel any unit abilities which are also autocast, especially "Raise Dead." And that needs a nerf in some way as well.

Btw, this thread is likely to be closed sometime soon.

[Nedech]

I'm not sure what part of undead is imba apart from the destroyers. The DK can be annoying and so can stats, but they are not really imba.

I think they said the UD base build was imbalanced.

How come Grubby said that ne was imbalanced?

[GroG]

this is what i think is rediculous in war3, but i don't think it's imbalance

-spellbreaker stealing rejuv (and i'm sure other manual cast spells)
-those towers humans can buy at their shop and quick push with
-LS effect on human
-faerie fire duration (wouldn't be so bad if you didn't get vision)
-the hex interaction with kodos (i liked it when it spit the grunts back out, made the matchup more interesting imo)
-raiders ensare duration and cooldown
-headhunters freaking suck
-hippo riders usually suck
-destros nullify orc casters, probably race casters (although huvud get casters)
-the only GREAT unit ud has vs orc is destro.. give them something else
-make docs useful in solo
-boost all the other "less often used" heroes!

i'm sure i can think of tons more but those are just off the top of my head

[cole]

this is what i think is rediculous in war3, but i don't think it's imbalance

-spellbreaker stealing rejuv (and i'm sure other manual cast spells)
-those towers humans can buy at their shop and quick push with
-LS effect on human
-faerie fire duration (wouldn't be so bad if you didn't get vision)
-the hex interaction with kodos (i liked it when it spit the grunts back out, made the matchup more interesting imo)
-raiders ensare duration and cooldown
-headhunters freaking suck
-hippo riders usually suck
-destros nullify orc casters, probably race casters (although huvud get casters)
-the only GREAT unit ud has vs orc is destro.. give them something else
-make docs useful in solo
-boost all the other "less often used" heroes!

i'm sure i can think of tons more but those are just off the top of my head

Some things you need to take in consideration DD is that HHs suck ass in solo, (Not counting certain maps in orc mirror) but they can realllly rape in team. Their cheap gold cost allows them to be massed and easily replaced when they die. They are extremely effective combined with multiple auras and buffing them could make AT reallly imbalanced. But i agree in solo they are kinda weak.

I do wish that destroyers didnt nullify orc casters also because it would be more of a fun MU if i could lodge vs ud but i cant think of a way of fixing this without making orc completly rape UD.

Ensare isnt that bad in most cases imo, now that its already been nerfed. Its no worse than certain other things..

You were reffering to "ivory towers" with HU and yea they can be really useful even just for protecting expo purposes.

Faerie fire is pretty ridiculous to say the least :/. -5 armor and vision? And its a initiate spell? Wtf? Compare that to something like sentry wards...Dont get me wrong, sentry wards can be good but they dont lower units armor by 5.

[GenocideAlive]

I do wish that destroyers didnt nullify orc casters also because it would be more of a fun MU if i could lodge vs ud but i cant think of a way of fixing this without making orc completly rape UD.
Docs work pretty well against UD, but you can't be noob about it. If you put the wards far enough back, a dest flapping far enough forward to eat them pretty much means gg for that destroyer. They take finesse.

[cole]

Dual beast still tends to be more effective than going a lodge though.

[RedRagToAnOrc]

Yes, plus Docs are more effective at Tier 2 IMO anyway where you have Raiders/Sentry Wards/TC to stop Fiends Burrowing. If you can catch the Undead out of their base then (especially without any skellies) then it's either TP out or run for their life.

[GenocideAlive]

If you can catch the Undead out of their base then (especially without any skellies) then it's either TP out or run for their life.In theory, Docs and Sentry ward would help you be able to do that.