I <3 Cheese

[RedRagToAnOrc]

I write this thread in anger. Some of you may know that I started a new account a week or two ago for a clan, zA. I've been told I should keep going regardless, which is what I've been doing. However, with a solo record of 9 wins and 7 losses, I feel really quite bad, and here's why.

My first loss was a Bloodmage/Archmage/Fast Tech Human player. I rush towered him and sieged his base for a good 5/10 minutes. He drove me back and won. My second loss was to fast tech/mass bats. My third, fourth, and fifth losses were due to fast expansions and a mass towerer. Sixth and seventh losses were mass Tier 1 tower rushers.

Notice a pattern? That's right, unless you've been living in a cave for quite a while, you'll notice that these are either 'cheese' strategies, or ones that are generally frowned upon. Or, in the case of fast expanders, ones that are simply very annoying. I should add that as a result, my ELL has been dragged down to 28, the 'average' - whereas against mainly cookie cutting players, I tend to be low to mid 30s.

My questions are as follows, and I'd like them answered before I smash my head off the keyboard.

Firstly, how do you stop a rush towerer?

Secondly, how do you stop a fast expansion?

Thirdly, how do you stop a turtler?

And finally, how do you stop mass Bats?

Bearing in mind that I am an Orc player, responses are encouraged. I need some solutions because I'm becoming chicken feed for these players. In fact, so much so that I can win against high 30s players who cookie cut but lose to high 20s players who don't.

[GenocideAlive]

Your solution is actually much easier than most: Scout. You should know what your opponent is doing at each tier of the game. Get a good idea of his starting buildings, his starting hero, and what's he's doing with his starting army.

From there on out, it's a matter of securing an expo while outcreeping him. It's usually tricky because he'll try to harass your main OR your expo while he techs--but towers and good building placement minimize this well beyond the point of ineffectiveness.

Mass bats counters -

HU - Tanks, 3-4 small groups (2-3) of flying machines with flak upgrade.
NE - several archers around the tree mixed with a few dotts, use hippo scouts for vision and use wells if they concoction.
UD - Fiends, frost towers, Nova

[cole]

I write this thread in anger. Some of you may know that I started a new account a week or two ago for a clan, zA. I've been told I should keep going regardless, which is what I've been doing. However, with a solo record of 9 wins and 7 losses, I feel really quite bad, and here's why.

My first loss was a Bloodmage/Archmage/Fast Tech Human player. I rush towered him and sieged his base for a good 5/10 minutes. He drove me back and won. My second loss was to fast tech/mass bats. My third, fourth, and fifth losses were due to fast expansions and a mass towerer. Sixth and seventh losses were mass Tier 1 tower rushers.

Notice a pattern? That's right, unless you've been living in a cave for quite a while, you'll notice that these are either 'cheese' strategies, or ones that are generally frowned upon. Or, in the case of fast expanders, ones that are simply very annoying. I should add that as a result, my ELL has been dragged down to 28, the 'average' - whereas against mainly cookie cutting players, I tend to be low to mid 30s.

My questions are as follows, and I'd like them answered before I smash my head off the keyboard.

Firstly, how do you stop a rush towerer?

Secondly, how do you stop a fast expansion?

Thirdly, how do you stop a turtler?

And finally, how do you stop mass Bats?

Bearing in mind that I am an Orc player, responses are encouraged. I need some solutions because I'm becoming chicken feed for these players. In fact, so much so that I can win against high 30s players who cookie cut but lose to high 20s players who don't.

You shouldnt have a problem at all vs mass bats as orc. What you need is fortified upgrade. Build 3-4 towers around your base and get fortified upgrade asap and you should be fine vs mass bats. Also ensare and using bats yourself work quite well.

Vs a tower rusher, id have to see a replay to know exaclty the kind your talking about because there are a few diff ways that HUs do it vs orc.

Vs a turtler, you need one major thing. An expo. Creep the last goldmine hed expect and expo there. Trust me it works. While expos going up, just keep pressure and contain him in base till you have a sizeable army, enough to lure him out and finish the game. Scout and make sure he doesnt try to expo himself though. Vs turtlers i usually have 3 working gold mines. But yea, towers are incredibly imbalanced, imo.

Vs a fast expoer..Im assuming your talking about NE/Hu on maps like LT? Theres different ways to approach this... You can try doing what some do and send your grunts to attack his peasants at his expo while using your FS to harrass his main, or if your not confident you can stop his expo, just hurt it as much as you can and get expo up yourself asap.

[GenocideAlive]

You shouldnt have a problem at all vs mass bats as orc. What you need is fortified upgrade. Build 3-4 towers around your base and get fortified upgrade asap and you should be fine vs mass bats. Also ensare and using bats yourself work quite well.
Why would you get a fortified upgrade when it doubles the damage that bats do to the towers? And why would you get ensnare when you can just Unstable Concoction the bats yourself?

[cole]

Why would you get a fortified upgrade when it doubles the damage that bats do to the towers? And why would you get ensnare when you can just Unstable Concoction the bats yourself?

I said use bats yourself,too. And ensare works nearly as good if you dont want to play bat wars.But that can depend on the map. Anyways towers in general tend to rape bats ever since they HP nerfed them. Unless he has a shitload of bats and you have towers badly placed, i dont see how this is raping you.

[GenocideAlive]

Bats' Liquid Fire upgrade heavily lowers the RoF of the towers. And he did say "MASS BATS", so I'm assume that he has..."MASS BATS". Let's double check:
MASS BATS
...yep, it says "MASS BATS". A control group of bats means one per tower to lower their RoF, then FF them down one by one.

The only towers that do significantly well against bats is HU towers, and that's because they're not fortified and they have armor upgrades. Otherwise, you still have as of yet to defend your decision to fortify the towers or why the "3-4 towers" are somehow going to be able to take out "MASS BATS".

[cole]

Can you post a rep and defend your decision that mass bats beats mass towers? Towers cost less gold thatn bats for one thing. And liquid fire or w/e is tier 3, so a tier 2 push could set him back a little bit.

[GenocideAlive]

Can you post a rep and defend your decision that mass bats beats mass towers? Towers cost less gold thatn bats for one thing. And liquid fire or w/e is tier 3, so a tier 2 push could set him back a little bit.
Wow, because the cost of the two units fighting is EXTREMELY important when dealing with unit counters. For instance, we know a master sorc could never beat a Tauren, because the Tauren is WAY more expensive. Likewise, a dryad doesn't stand a chance against a Spirit Walker, because the Spirit Walker costs more, right?

And how the hell did you bring a tier 2 push into this?

[GroG]

i hate to say it redrag, but you tower rushed someone, and called their play a cheese strat? you lost to mass bat and liquid fire (which is rare ovo) and you call it cheese?

you need to learn what a cheese strat is. FE you either need to harass the hell out of them, and make it not worth their while, or you need to expand yourself, or you can out-tech/creep them.

i'm assuming the mass bat ovo game, it was solo blademaster and you let his levels get out of control?

let me know

[thefazant]

bats really completely rape towers, their rate of fire gets reduced by 90% or so.
still, i dont see how the fuck you lose vs mass bats as orc, 3 unstable concoctions on his bat group and he loses them all

[RedRagToAnOrc]

i hate to say it redrag, but you tower rushed someone, and called their play a cheese strat? you lost to mass bat and liquid fire (which is rare ovo) and you call it cheese?

you need to learn what a cheese strat is. FE you either need to harass the hell out of them, and make it not worth their while, or you need to expand yourself, or you can out-tech/creep them.

i'm assuming the mass bat ovo game, it was solo blademaster and you let his levels get out of control?

let me know

The mass Bat game was a Level 2 Blademaster, actually - he just escaped one Peon and killed my base with one Burrow out of the way so that I didn't win after I finished off his base.

Rush towering a cheese player is... well, you can't really call it hypocritical. I don't do it because it's cheese, I do it because it's the only thing that's ever worked for me.

Thank you for the advice everyone, by the way.

[GenocideAlive]

I rarely tower with HU because I'm generally pretty bad at it. However, I have towered several NEs whom fucking tech with no units...which drives me freaking crazy. Moonjuice + DH + 2 archers can eventually beat out my AM + 5-7 foots and 3 peasants building towers. OFC, they start pumping units as soon as I show up...:S

[Sid]

I thought ur's the boss in this Town Hall!