What's up, Doc?

[RedRagToAnOrc]

RedRag's Guide to an Underused Unit
The Orc Witch-Doctor
(What's up, Doc?)

Playing a few fun games on a smurf got me thinking about often unused units or heroes, and how they can be used in ordinary Orc matchups to help out. It all stemmed from a game I played against Jack777, a Level 23 Human player on Twisted Meadows. In a bid to try something different, I improvised.

So what did I do? I went Far Seer/Alchy/Mass Casters. The idea was to negate any slow effects on the Grunts (which would beat Breakers) with the Spirit Walkers, along with potential summons, use Shamen for Lightning Shield on the Alchy which would then run round the back carrying a potion or two and act as a deadly meat shield, and use Docs for Stasis Traps so that I could plant a Lightning Shield or two on and let it wreak havoc amongst my opponent's army.

Well, it was extremely fun. But that's besides the point - it worked. Militia got tore up by Stasis and Lightning Shield, along with Chain Lightning from my FS and the casters' magic attacks. Towers were taken down easily. Footmen never stood a chance, and Rifles didn't seem to last much longer.

So how and when should you use a Witch Doctor? I'm going to briefly explain how Docs can be used in various matchups - the advantages as well as various strategies and techniques, and something a little new (and untested) that I dreamt up along the way.

The Witch Doctor

Orc versus Human
How do I use my spells in tandem with the other casters?

Orc versus Human is the best way to show how Docs can interact with other Orcish spellcasters. Human players, especially at early to middle Tier 2, have lots of low HP heavy armoured units just waiting to be taken, left over from Tier 1 creeping etc.
How do you take advantage of this? Well, Stasis Traps and Lightning Shield, as I already mentioned, is a fantastic combo, and here's how it works.
In a situation where you run up against a Human army, you'll probably either be creepjacking or have run into each other. If it's inside a base, it's a different matter, which I'll explain later. But outside of a Human player's base, you simply slap down a Stasis Trap or two (one in the middle of your opponent's army, one behind their back lines incase they run) and then wait for the stun to take effect. Stasis Trap is the longest stun in the game, standing at six seconds.
This stun gives you ample time to stick on a couple of Lightning Shields and place another Trap (the first trap that stuns detonates all others in its area of effect, so wait until the first one starts before sticking another down) leading to 20 (I think) damage per second being distributed over a pretty large area for the best part of 4 seconds. That's 80 HP off already. Chain Lightning takes off a bit more. If you have an Alchy, Acid Bomb, or a Lightning Shield on him, that's extra damage on those footmen.
Unless you opponent has a healing scroll at this point, (and in any case, magic attacks own heavy armour,) there isn't much they can do about the Footmen. Casters get beaten by your Walkers, with Disenchant, and Breakers get beaten by those Grunts, which aren't slowed any more and can therefore deal out significant damage.
Breakers switching the shields on to you? Either use them to your own advantage through micro or dispel them and continue to use other spells.
Spirit Link dissipates any focus firing by casters or Rifles, and this can be later helped by Healing Wards or Scrolls of Healing, which will replenish a fair amount of collective HP.
See how all this works in tandem?
Now, if you're attacking a Human player in their base, place Stasis Traps inside choke points and then repeat the Lightning Shield trick. With units' AI pathing system struggling to get them through, it'll mean that unless they are dispelled or switched, those units may take some considerable damage.

Orc Mirror
Uber Healing Ability For The Win!

So a lot of people freely admit that Orc mirror has a lot of Kodos in it. How much HP do Kodos have? One thousand. How much do Healing Wards heal per second? Two percent of total HP - so that makes 20HP/sec regen on those Kodos, multiplied of course by however many Wards you have down.
Therefore, coupled with Spirit Link, those Kodos can't really be focus fired, as the Healing Wards compensate for the damage spread across other units by Spirit Link.
Stasis Traps can be used once again to stun and focus, along with Ensnare or Lightning Shield to spread damage across an area and focus down units. Wolves and microed units can be purged, as can Firelords' Lava Spawns to prevent having to focus them.

Orc versus Undead
Sentry Wards and Stasis Traps in Abundance

Playing a Fiends player? On a map such as Turtle Rock, where choke points and narrow corridors play a large part, and Fiends are more commonly used by Undead players, Stasis Traps and Sentry Wards can be used in a similar manner.
Undead players love to Burrow-micro Fiends that they can't heal. Not only can you place a Sentry Ward to keep an eye on an opponent's base or find a Shade, it can also be used to True Sight Fiends out so that you can kill them.
Other people complain about how Undead bases are difficult to attack. Well, they are, but place a Stasis Trap nearby and lure a couple of units out to be stunned and killed. Ensnare helps with this as well, and the Traps last for a stunning 150 seconds so you only need to replace them once in a while.

Orc versus Night-Elf
My Latest Crackpot Strategy?

What beats Talons? Well, we know that Siege does, and AoE. But can't the Talons walk around the side and kill the Siege? Simply surround them with Traps and then let off Rockets (with Tinker) for additional stun, Pit Lord's (you heard me) Rain of Fire and Panda's Haze/Fire combo. Coupled with splash attacks from Siege, that is one heck of a damage dealer.
Sure, Dryads reduce the ability of your Docs to stun stuff, as Wards admittedly can be dispelled by Wisps or manual Abolish, but you'll have Siege and Raiders to deal with that, not least your heroes.

Two versus Two Combo?
Invisibility Harrass?

You read it right. Pair up with a Human player and try this out (untested so no guarantees!) - one player gets four Sorceresses and the other gets two Docs/two Shamen. Get other units as ordinary. Invis the Docs and Shamen and run them into your opponent's base (preferably Orc or Human).
Immediately, place one Stasis Trap between the mine and the main, and another one where the lumber workers are. Lightning Shield as many as possible and then run for it, and leave the Shield to do the work. Unless your opponents have some decent micro, they'll be forced to react and move quickly, giving you 4/5 seconds worth of Lightning Shield damage. Rinse and repeat and dent your opponent's economy big time.

So there you have it. Witch Doctors are, IMO, clearly underused. You have all these fantastic spells to use and so many windows of opportunity. All you need is some quick fingers for hotkeying and micro and you can really get the hang of it.

I know many of you may not agree, but the Witch Doctor is one of my favourite units, and I suggest that you all at least give it a try.

Thanks for reading, thoughts welcome. :)

[Prozerran]

Breakers can wreck this strategy against Human. Really, a Human that has Breakers and Flying Machines can cast control magic and suddenly turn the Stasis Traps against you. Sure, this would probably work with lower-level players, but Docs against Human really won't be too effective even if Humans don't go with Breakers. Adept Priests dispell Doc Wards. Sure, Human might walk into it once, but a good player can quickly counter by speed building a Workshop, upgrading priests, and pumping out a single flying machine. In that time, you've built a caster army, he'll come back with superior units and stomp you into the ground, possibly by casting control magic on those wards, but definitely by dispelling them.

[madmarv]

sounds like lotta work to me, i use shamans for bloodlust and doctors for healing wards. only in rare situations i might use other functions :\ its not that its, not usefull, but simply there are many other things to do, like, playing your heroes? when i know that i'm gonna go through a big battle, i move my army forward, put a couple of healing wards in the middle, turn on the bloodlust, and then i play my heroes.. of course i controle other units as well, but i concentrate more on playing my heroes, doctors and shamans are always in the back supporting the army and the heroes, grunts and tourins are always infront...

[cole]

Non autocast spells are usually the most useful(Not counting slow -_-). Your strat can work vs a good HU, but only if you add in grunts. In fact i use a similar strat vs hu that i learned from my level 41 solo clan mate. Ive played him alot and he showed me a interesting orc vs hu strat. Fs/TC Mass grunts tier then dual lodge mass SW shamen along with the grunts and a few late docs. It takes alot of proper micro(Statis wards, purge, using link and dischant at the right times, LS) but with good micro can be incredibly effective. To beat HU you need alot of dispel. a good hu that is and you need to be able to micro your units right, not just moving them back when their low hp. Stomp+LS+statis wards works pretty well vs HU but there are ways for hu to counter this. Statis wards can be FFed and die and LS can be dispelled.

[Prozerran]

If this strat works, let's see some replays in the replay thread, pls. Thanks!

[cole]

If this strat works, let's see some replays in the replay thread, pls. Thanks!

My strat or redrags? My strat is sorta cookie cut and it works hella good.

[Lordshadowbane]

Can't HU go breaker/priest/sorc and dispell your wards/LS?

[thefazant]

you seem to take for granted that human will actually attack you at tier 2.
hes much better off with creeping sneakily while getting one of the many extremely hard counters for youre strat

[Prozerran]

That's kind of what I'm thinking here, Faz. Wards are nothing more than food for Breakers to make them EVEN MORE abusive. There's nothing like throwing a stasis trap out against a superior army of Footies, Priests, Breakers, and probably Hawks only to be dispelled or worse, stolen. Though, I can say this much. It'd be damn funny to watch an army of Docs, Shamans, Grunts, and what SW's(?) get owned by their own wards. Please, post a replay of that happening, at least in your testing of the strat. At some point, it had to happen if you played a decent human player.

I'm not trying to knock the strat either, I just don't see where you're getting around Dispel and Control Magic. What's getting you past that other than inferior micro on the part of your opponent?

[Nedech]

I hope the Orc vs Orc strat you came up with works because the orc kodo war is getting really boring >_>

[RedRagToAnOrc]

Breakers can wreck this strategy against Human. Really, a Human that has Breakers and Flying Machines can cast control magic and suddenly turn the Stasis Traps against you. Sure, this would probably work with lower-level players, but Docs against Human really won't be too effective even if Humans don't go with Breakers. Adept Priests dispell Doc Wards. Sure, Human might walk into it once, but a good player can quickly counter by speed building a Workshop, upgrading priests, and pumping out a single flying machine. In that time, you've built a caster army, he'll come back with superior units and stomp you into the ground, possibly by casting control magic on those wards, but definitely by dispelling them.

Hold on a sec. Stasis Traps can be switched? That's my theorycrafting out the window. I knew they could be dispelled, but not switched by Breakers.

The whole point was that many Human players don't think of getting Adept Priests and dispelling the Traps because they're too busy microing other stuff, like heroes etc. If there's an auto-cast spell that does it for them, then admittedly, that kind of sucks.

Sigh.

[Prozerran]

Hold on a sec. Stasis Traps can be switched? That's my theorycrafting out the window. I knew they could be dispelled, but not switched by Breakers.

The whole point was that many Human players don't think of getting Adept Priests and dispelling the Traps because they're too busy microing other stuff, like heroes etc. If there's an auto-cast spell that does it for them, then admittedly, that kind of sucks.

Sigh.

No, control magic is researched at the Sanctum. It is not autocast. It's the same as casting control magic on a wolf or WE. CM works on wards as well.

So, maybe your theory crafting isn't out the window. Just play a few games and see if Humans easily adapt to it or if you can overwhelm them with more wards than they can control and dispell. It still is possible I suppose, I just don't see how. Need some replays here.

[cole]

That's kind of what I'm thinking here, Faz. Wards are nothing more than food for Breakers to make them EVEN MORE abusive. There's nothing like throwing a stasis trap out against a superior army of Footies, Priests, Breakers, and probably Hawks only to be dispelled or worse, stolen. Though, I can say this much. It'd be damn funny to watch an army of Docs, Shamans, Grunts, and what SW's(?) get owned by their own wards. Please, post a replay of that happening, at least in your testing of the strat. At some point, it had to happen if you played a decent human player.

I'm not trying to knock the strat either, I just don't see where you're getting around Dispel and Control Magic. What's getting you past that other than inferior micro on the part of your opponent?

There are a few keys flaws your logic faz.

A. Control magic is tier 3, the orc should always tier 2 push with strat and optional offensive towering while using it.
B. Most HUs dont tech to tier 3 to fast vs orc, unless they feel that they really need air,poly, or knights.
C. Like i said before, my ovshu strat has a few WEAKNESSES LIKE DISPEL ON LS. But priest can be countered with proper stomp+chain+FF micro and unless he has more than 3 priests, which usually theirs more sorc than priest the orc wont have to worry about priests to much.
D. Breakers cost more gold than grunts, SWS, docs, or shamen.

If i have time ill play a ovshu game vs a clanmate from clan AM and show it you but ive been kinda busy with WOW. Not trying to flame you prozerran, just saying i know what to abuse buddy. But you dont really use alot of docs anyways, and usually i dont get more than 2 and i use them for sentry wards againt invising heros, expos, etc. And usually if the games played out pretty evenly and the HU makes it to tier 3, the hu will win 90% of the time.

[xodkrm]

How exactly does statis trap work?
Do your units auto-attack the trap when they see it?
Do they try to NOT attack it, and onyl attack when you click on the trap?
Does statis trap stack?
eg: 1#unit attacks trap, 1sec later unit #2 that just arrived (meaning is not stunned) atcks trap #2. Does unit 1's stun last for total of 12secs or 7secs (6+1) ?
Does healing ward stack?
Are enemy units more likely to attack your wards compared to units?

[RedRagToAnOrc]

No, control magic is researched at the Sanctum. It is not autocast. It's the same as casting control magic on a wolf or WE. CM works on wards as well.

So, maybe your theory crafting isn't out the window. Just play a few games and see if Humans easily adapt to it or if you can overwhelm them with more wards than they can control and dispell. It still is possible I suppose, I just don't see how. Need some replays here.

Thought you meant spell break - didn't realise you were talking about Control Magic. Sigh... again.

Well yeah, that does kind of help me a bit. I'll get round to posting some replays later, but as Cole pointed out, CM is Tier 3 and Orcs are strongest at Tier 2, which is why they always push then. Many Hu players will also be too busy pumping casters to have researched Dispel upgrade for Priests.

P.S xodkrm, my understanding is that a unit has to enter the Stasis Trap field and stay there for a certain period of time. The Stasis Trap will then be activated, stunning all units in it's area for 6 seconds and destroying all other Stasis Traps in the area with no additional stun.

[Prozerran]

I really think it would work with Gruntapult quite nicely if you spammed them. If you consider in SC BW, you have the Tank push with Vults and Siege Tanks. Stasis Traps are kind of like the mines, and sure, some of them might get stolen or dispelled or whatever. But placing them strategically, you could theoretically create a containment on your opponent. I don't see why you wouldn't use Stasis Traps when towering someone at Tier 2. Drop Stasis traps around the Towers and watch as your Cata's and Towers decimate pitiful Militia and AM. Traps have their uses, and who knows, if you pump enough docs and drop enough traps, it won't matter how many priests come out to dispell, at least one of those traps will go off.

If you were in a 2v2 HU Orc and used sorcs to invis docs, that would work perfectly. Position Docs behind the enemy army, Drop Traps, push forward with Grunts. Enemy moves back into the traps, bada bing bada boom.

[RedRagToAnOrc]

I really think it would work with Gruntapult quite nicely if you spammed them. If you consider in SC BW, you have the Tank push with Vults and Siege Tanks. Stasis Traps are kind of like the mines, and sure, some of them might get stolen or dispelled or whatever. But placing them strategically, you could theoretically create a containment on your opponent. I don't see why you wouldn't use Stasis Traps when towering someone at Tier 2. Drop Stasis traps around the Towers and watch as your Cata's and Towers decimate pitiful Militia and AM. Traps have their uses, and who knows, if you pump enough docs and drop enough traps, it won't matter how many priests come out to dispell, at least one of those traps will go off.

If you were in a 2v2 HU Orc and used sorcs to invis docs, that would work perfectly. Position Docs behind the enemy army, Drop Traps, push forward with Grunts. Enemy moves back into the traps, bada bing bada boom.

Yeah, something like that. :)

What about a second hero? I was using Alchy for a Lightning-Shielded-Tank but that's pretty inpractical against Priests. Panda, perhaps? Chain/Haze/Fire would work pretty well in a Stasis Trap, methinks.

[Prozerran]

Or TC. Shockwave works fine. CL and Wave will do enough to kill off the casters.

[GroG]

remember, hu only has like a 3 second window to control magic that stasis trap before it goes invisible (so they need a gyro or a crystal ball + a breaker), whereas with a healing ward they can control magic it at any time.

i'm not seeing any real huge potential here vs human, except for SW's vs. human. link is really good, dispel obviously good, and if you do manage to get tauren the cow revive is good. the reason i think you'd be better off vs this is because first, human FF's in this matchup so link is good (until it's dispelled, obviously), second MK rapes individual units, so revive will be good, and finally SW's are a bit bulkier and also can dispel slow.

only real leet thing i ever saw happen with docs was back in 1.14, when some guy went grunt/doc instead of grunt/raider, and used sentry ward to kill burrowing fiends and hard tier 2 pushed into his base before roys came

[GenocideAlive]

Just FYI, this strat will get you raped, hands down. Docs are horrible units against human, period. Their tier 1 spells are useless, tier 2 spells are sub-par, and their tier 3 spells are OK. Including them in a tier 2 push means you'll be able to cast one trap that'll stun maybe 2 units. This, as opposed to shams that'll give you 2-3 purges for equal cost and will net kills and extremely effective stuns.

Any aggressive placement of a ward/trap will just get it insta-wrecked, and any attempt on your part to involve witchdoctors more in the game will just be more money wasted. You can put three docs in your army, but you might as well get shams for that cost and the only spell you really want (healing wards) is tier 3. So you have to tech to tier 3 to get there, then tech the appropriate spell, and THEN you finally have the payoff. In the meantime, HU can research one priest tech and fuck all of it. God help you if he gets a breaker, because one breaker can literally steal every single product of 20-30 witch doctors' mana pool.

You'll also hamstring your attacking force, since you'll have to spend money on docs, a hut, and an upgrade for a hideous return. You won't be able to buy as many grunts, catapults, or raiders because you went down this fucking hideous tech tree angle. You're going to, what, stun trap them to death?

[Ender]

If the group of you can figure any sort of unit guides, whether for the Witch Doctor or any other unit, I'll sticky them for you. It might be nice for Warboards to have some unit guides there for everyone to see and use.

What do you all think?

[RedRagToAnOrc]

I like the idea, Ender, but it would take a while. I don't know what everyone else thinks and how on earth it would be organised, but maybe.

[cole]

The problem with one person writing a guide is to takes a while to complete if you want to make it effective. The best thing to do is have 2-4 people collaborating on one guide and contributing what they know to it.

[GenocideAlive]

The problem with one person writing a guide is to takes a while to complete if you want to make it effective. The best thing to do is have 2-4 people collaborating on one guide and contributing what they know to it.
I don't really see how one person writing a guide has any problems that 2-4 people writing would solve without creating its own problems.

I also think it'd be a fairly straightforward approach, I don't quite see how it would be this omfg huge convoluted mess. Make an article, submit it, and see how it goes. Not too hard...

[Ender]

Well, look at this thread. You all are discussing the various points and counterpoints of a certain unit. Someone compile this, organize it, and there we have it.

[Prozerran]

I don't really see how one person writing a guide has any problems that 2-4 people writing would solve without creating its own problems.

I also think it'd be a fairly straightforward approach, I don't quite see how it would be this omfg huge convoluted mess. Make an article, submit it, and see how it goes. Not too hard...I'm game.

Ender: Human guide on it's way. Everyone feel free to pitch in with response posts.

[Yoda]

You should probably have a different section for general strategies, otherwise you'll take something like the entire first page of this section... but its a good idea.

Hey, Prozerran a strat that I often do as human when I have a level 7 (or higher) archmage is make him invisible (by using a sorc), and take him behind an enemy gold mine. Then blizzard-kill all the workers. Mass teleport out. Rinse and repeat.

[GenocideAlive]

You should probably have a different section for general strategies, otherwise you'll take something like the entire first page of this section... but its a good idea.

Hey, Prozerran a strat that I often do as human when I have a level 7 (or higher) archmage is make him invisible (by using a sorc), and take him behind an enemy gold mine. Then blizzard-kill all the workers. Mass teleport out. Rinse and repeat.
Yeah, wow. I don't think that one will make it into the guide. A L7 AM doesn't make it into WC very frequently. Try an AM with a staff of TP and a sorc. That sounds a little more realistic.

[Yoda]

Yeah, wow. I don't think that one will make it into the guide. A L7 AM doesn't make it into WC very frequently. Try an AM with a staff of TP and a sorc. That sounds a little more realistic.

Yes probably. But I still think you would need level 5.

[Prozerran]

Actually, you would either need a Pitlord or a Bloodmage, a Staff of Sanctuary and Staff of Teleport along with a Sorc or two to Invis them, of course in addition to that absolutely necessary AM. God, everyone seems so fucking hung up on Brilliance Aura, like a game can't be played without it. I have to address that in the guide. Ugh... it's already too long.

[RedRagToAnOrc]

Actually, you would either need a Pitlord or a Bloodmage, a Staff of Sanctuary and Staff of Teleport along with a Sorc or two to Invis them, of course in addition to that absolutely necessary AM. God, everyone seems so fucking hung up on Brilliance Aura, like a game can't be played without it. I have to address that in the guide. Ugh... it's already too long.

Pitlord gets used on the odd occasion in Orc mirror (there was a Grubby/Zacard game once where Grubby went FS/PL and Zacard went FS/Alchy) with Boots of Speed and Staff of TP for a burrow harrass at early Tier 2. Don't know how effective it is, though, to be honest.

And PS nothing is too long, Proz! I can do an Orc or Night-Elf guide if you'd like, Ender. Well, a low 30s one - nothing too fantastic.