All Mentally Handicapped People are Going to Hell?

[Nuts]

I placed this in the IR because I want genuine and serious replies from some of our resident theists.

Here's my dilemma. Your entrance to heaven is based upon your the concept of accepting Jesus Christ as your savior, right? Ok, with this in mind, how would God approach a mentally handicapped person whom is unable to discern the complexities of a God, much less the conscious act of giving your soul to Jesus?

For instance, let's say that we're dealing with a mentally handicapped person with an IQ of 25. This person is essentially helpless, there is no chance that they will understand the concept of religion. Does this person receive a free pass to heaven? And if so, at what point does God draw the line? What IQ level does God decide that a human is capable of making this decision? The same could question could be asked for brain damaged patients.

This also brings up an similar question. If a person with highly advanced thinking has rationalized the non-existence of God based on logic and lack of evidence, why would God punish this person for using their gift of "life and intellect" to make this deduction? It seems that God made us to be logical and rational people, why would we be expected to believe in something without a tangible foundation? If God had desired humans to acknowledge the existence of God, would it not be more appropriate to give us some evidence, or at the very least an inherent belief?

Please, I ask that you give serious consideration to my thoughts. I would prefer not to see answers like "God knows" or "God works in mysterious ways." I am inviting some serious discussion, no flaming, no derogatory remarks towards your beliefs.

[Mtank]

I think it would be appropriate to add that in earlier times, a mentally handicapped person would be seen as either 'possessed' (depending on how abnormal his behaviour was) or it was said that he was being punished for either his or his parents' sins. (The same was also true of people who were handicapped in other fields. I remember reading a speech by a visually challenged American Professor where he uses the example of the disciples of Christ, who, upon seeing a blind man, ask Christ: 'who has sinned? This man, or his parents?')

I don't know how many people still believe that, but those who do obviously do not think these people are going to heaven.

[FallenLord]

Your entrance to heaven is based upon your the concept of accepting Jesus Christ as your savior, right?That is not what Lutherans believe. The Holy Spirit creates saving faith through the mechanisms of hearing the Word and through Baptism. Once you have that saving faith, the worst you can do is reject it. This is why we baptize infants; you don't have to be mentally developed to have the gift of faith.

You have, in fact, given an excellent demonstration of how Christianity works overall. All people are spiritually handicapped (dead), hateful enemies of God, and incapable of even "accepting" Christ. (Unless you define "accept" as the complement of "reject.") The entire point is that God comes to us while we are still spiritually dead sinners.

Does this person receive a free pass to heaven?If they were baptized, that's a good bet; just like the rest of us. Otherwise, of course not.

If a person with highly advanced thinking has rationalized the non-existence of God based on logic and lack of evidence, why would God punish this person for using their gift of "life and intellect" to make this deduction?You've missed the fact that a person with highly advanced thinking can rationalize the existence of God based on logic and evidence. Thus God will just cry and point to someone like me. :rolleyes:

But the answer to your question is sin. You seem to have extrapolated off the notion that God cares about "good" people to assuming that God cares about "smart" people. You get into heaven based on whether you have faith that Jesus justified you of your sin. If you don't believe in God, you don't believe in his Son (who justifies) or the Holy Spirit (who creates faith). You probably don't believe in sin either.

If God had desired humans to acknowledge the existence of God, would it not be more appropriate to give us some evidence, or at the very least an inherent belief?I think that order and design in the universe are objective evidence of God. God thinks so, too. We also have a built-in conscience (the Law written on our hearts). /shrug

[Leosam096]

In Romans chapter 5 of the Bible, Paul teaches us that it was Adam's sin which made each of us sinful by nature. But he also taught that the death of Jesus Christ has reverses the consequences of Adam's sin, allowing God to give eternal life to all who are "in Christ." By sinning against God, we identify with Adam, and demonstrate that we are worthy of God's judgment and death. By trusting in Christ, we are forgiven of our sins and given the righteousness which leads to eternal life. A mentally handicapped person by virtue of being born of man and therefore are the descendants of Adam, and consequently must face physical death. But because they have not willfully resisted and rejected the revealed Word of God, the death of Christ covers their sins and we can thus be assured that they will go to heaven.

cheers!

[Markpyro]

I believe God is fair; he'll judge those who are capable of being judged and spare those who aren't.

I asked the same question of people of another culture; ones raised so highly in another religion (or in lack of one) who had no chance nor reason to adopt Christianity. I do not think God is stupid, and he will again judge them fairly.

[Kingscrab]

But because they have not willfully resisted and rejected the revealed Word of God, the death of Christ covers their sins and we can thus be assured that they will go to heaven. I am confused. Why bother to spread the word at all?

A) People who have not heard of Christ cannot reject him.
Thus...
B) They are assured to go to heaven.
So...
c) What's the big need to convert anyone if they will go to heaven anyway? Aren't you doing them a favor by NOT teaching them of Christ? By your argument, ignorance is definately bliss.

[FallenLord]

I believe God is fair; he'll judge those who are capable of being judged and spare those who aren't.All who sin will be judged. Judgment is not based on some arbitrary human standard of ‘who has had a fair opportunity to hear the Gospel.’ It is based on sin. Period. Making the law palatable to our sense of fairness defeats the purpose of Christianity altogether.

But because they have not willfully resisted and rejected the revealed Word of God, the death of Christ covers their sins and we can thus be assured that they will go to heavenWhile that is just an assumption, I think it’s fairly reasonable.

… They are assured to go to heaven.I believe Losam is suggesting that a mentally handicapped individual who has been granted faith through baptism and the hearing of the Word will not be in a position to reject this faith because of their mental deficiency. However, a mentally handicapped individual who has not been exposed to the Holy Spirit through baptism or hearing the Word will go to hell.

[Kingscrab]

I believe Losam is suggesting that a mentally handicapped individual who has been granted faith through baptism and the hearing of the Word will not be in a position to reject this faith because of their mental deficiency. However, a mentally handicapped individual who has not been exposed to the Holy Spirit through baptism or hearing the Word will go to hell. So, as long as they have been baptized they can still go to heaven? Is that correct?

If so....
What about people who don't speak the same language that Christ's message is being taught in when they are "exposed" to it. Can they be saved through baptism too? After all, how can they be expected to understand the message if they can't understand the teacher who is speaking it?

[LinkTheGameFreak]

I think it's accepted that children who don't know the difference between right and wrong go to heaven if they die so why wouldn't a mentally handicapped person provided their mental state is severe as given - it's essentially the same idea, just older person

[FallenLord]

Kingscrab, baptism is a guarantee in the sense that God will always uphold is end of the bargin. Not in the sense that you can't reject the faith baptism gives you. Secondly, ""understanding"" (whatever you mean by that), is not a prerequisite for faith. The Holy Spirit can give anyone faith. Babies can have faith. Mentally handicapped people can have faith.

What about people who don't speak the same language that Christ's message is being taught in when they are "exposed" to it. Can they be saved through baptism too?Yes, of course.

I think it's accepted that children who don't know the difference between right and wrong go to heaven if they die For the record, it's not. Sin is sin, judgement is based on sin. No other criteria for judgement is just.

[Kingscrab]

Secondly, "understanding" (whatever you mean by that), is not a prerequisite for faith. By understanding i mean:
Person A preaches the word of God to person B in English. (for example)
Person B does not speak English. Hence Person B has no understanding of the word because it was taught to him in a language he does not comprehend. How can he have faith in something he knows absolutely nothing about?
What about people who don't speak the same language that Christ's message is being taught in when they are "exposed" to it. Can they be saved through baptism too? Yes, of course. So... Accepting Christ is really not a pre-requisite to salvation? As long as you're baptised, why is anything else even relevant?

Baptised = Saved ???

[frazz]

Kingscrab, baptism is a guarantee in the sense that God will always uphold is end of the bargin.
Nowhere in the bible does it say baptism lets you go to heaven.

It's sad, but I believe that even if you never hear the Word of God, you will go to hell. People don't generally like this because it isn't a happy message. But the bible says(I can find the verse if anyone wants) that how can one enter the kingdom of God if they never hear. Also,(if you're Christian at all) Jesus said to go into all the world and preach the gospel.
Baptised = Saved ???
That is poor logic on FL's part. So if you claimed hurricane Katrina in the name of the Lord, everyone in new orleans is saved? I don't think so. Again, that is nowhere in the Bible.

[Nuts]

That is not what Lutherans believe. The Holy Spirit creates saving faith through the mechanisms of hearing the Word and through Baptism. Once you have that saving faith, the worst you can do is reject it. This is why we baptize infants; you don't have to be mentally developed to have the gift of faith.
By this standard, an agnostic, if baptized, would gain entrance to Heaven. Is this true? And if so, as Kingscrab mentioned, why bother with the other stuff, if all you require is a baptism at birth. So long as I don't reject God, I'm in good shape? And what of the mentally handicapped that are born to parents without faith? There is no chance that this person will ever be capable of being baptized. So God would spite an innocent soul? Please clarify if this is not the case.

If they were baptized, that's a good bet; just like the rest of us. Otherwise, of course not.
I apologize for going into semantics here, but I was under the impression that your relationship with God was a personal one. Why would God require the act of Baptism (A physical ritual) in order to grant salvation? It seems to me that prayer and acceptance of the heart would mean a great deal more than a human ritual.

You've missed the fact that a person with highly advanced thinking can rationalize the existence of God based on logic and evidence. Thus God will just cry and point to someone like me. :rolleyes:
No, I didn't miss it, I simply didn't address it. But kudos to you for this self-gratifying ego boost. ;)

But the answer to your question is sin. You seem to have extrapolated off the notion that God cares about "good" people to assuming that God cares about "smart" people.
Not at all. I simply find it odd that God would punish his children for thinking in a linear fashion. Christianity isn't a linear line of thought, it requires a jump in logic, or what you would call faith. Darwinism requires the same jump, although the general concept is still quite a bit more substantiated that the idea of a supernatural being.

I think that order and design in the universe are objective evidence of God.
Occam's Razor would disagree.

However, a mentally handicapped individual who has not been exposed to the Holy Spirit through baptism or hearing the Word will go to hell.
Allow me to close by saying this, if what you say here is true, then your God is indeed an unpleasant God. I can honestly say that I am disturbed that this line of thought exists with regard to religion.

It's sad, but I believe that even if you never hear the Word of God, you will go to hell. People don't generally like this because it isn't a happy message.

You're right, that's not a happy message at all. I've always equated Hell to punishment. Why would God punish someone for their ignorance?

[Modred]

You're right, that's not a happy message at all. I've always equated Hell to punishment. Why would God punish someone for their ignorance?
Prepare for an unsubstantiated jump in logic: maybe God provides some means of revelation to every person at some point during his or her life. I've actually heard this theory presented in a serious manner before. The big question then being: "How does someone who has not heard the Bible recieve this revelation?"

Anyway, it would be wrong to assume mentally handicapped people are doomed for Hell simply because they were born with less mental capacity than the general populace. Why would God allow them to be born as such if they were doomed from the beginning? If you accept the existence of a loving God and that he created humanity, then some way must exist for the mentally handicapped to achieve salvation. Of course, if you believe in some deception, sadistic god (a la Descartes' "evil genius"), yeah, we're all gonna burn.

[FallenLord]

How can he have faith in something he knows absolutely nothing about?Because your pronouns are wrong. The Holy Spirit creates the faith, not the listener. Of course, preaching to people in an alien language is obviously stupid in any case. (Like cheap grace or faith without works.)

Baptised = Saved ???An inaccuracy acceptable for its simplicity. Like simple harmonic motion.

Nowhere in the bible does it say baptism lets you go to heaven. Mark 16:16 Early Christians were typically not Christians from birth. Invariably, they received the Holy Spirit through hearing the Word and were baptized for assurance afterwards.

So if you claimed hurricane Katrina in the name of the Lord, everyone in new orleans is saved?YA RLY /sarcasm

So... Accepting Christ is really not a pre-requisite to salvation? As long as you're baptised, why is anything else even relevant?And if so, as Kingscrab mentioned, why bother with the other stuff, if all you require is a baptism at birth.Because we are still sinners living in a sinful world. If you don’t regularly listen to the Word, receive holy communion, etc., you’re limiting your direct exposure to the Holy Spirit, who maintains and strengths faith. On your own, the Old Adam (sinful nature) will beat you every time; that is why we constantly need the Holy Spirit to prod us.

By this standard, an agnostic, if baptized, would gain entrance to Heaven. Is this true?By the sterile dictionary definition of agnostic, I guess so. But no soul is an island; it won’t take the sinful nature long to take over.

Why would God require the act of Baptism (A physical ritual) in order to grant salvation? It seems to me that prayer and acceptance of the heart would mean a great deal more than a human ritual.A personal relationship with God (including but not limited to the above) is a byproduct of the saving faith gifted through baptism. Christian maturity, sanctification, personal relationship; all basically the same thing. But you have to get the faith first. Also, baptism is a personal comfort (assurance of salvation) especially for those who were raised Christian.

So God would spite an innocent soul? I simply find it odd that God would punish his children for thinking in a linear fashion.Why would God punish someone for their ignorance?Damnit, sir! :P Correlation is not causation: Judgment is based on sin. No other criteria for judgment is just or even makes sense. Accordingly, every “why does God punish if ___ ?” question is a fallacy. Doubly so if it uses the word “innocent.” No one is innocent, and God punishes based on sin.

No, I didn't miss it, I simply didn't address it. But kudos to you for this self-gratifying ego boost.Pardon my sarcasm, if you will.

Occam's Razor would disagree.How can you get more elegant than “God-dun-it?” /pseudo-serious

Allow me to close by saying this, if what you say here is true, then your God is indeed an unpleasant God. I can honestly say that I am disturbed that this line of thought exists with regard to religion.Rephrase: However, a mentally handicapped individual (or any other sort of individual) who has not been exposed to the Holy Spirit through baptism or hearing the Word (or was exposed and rejected the Holy Spirit) will be judged fairly, according to how their lives compare to God’s Law.

For the interested:

Luther's Small Catechism:
It is not the water indeed that does them, but the word of God which is in and with the water, and faith, which trusts such word of God in the water. For without the word of God the water is simple water and no baptism. But with the word of God it is a baptism, that is, a gracious water of life and a washing of regeneration in the Holy Ghost, as St. Paul says, Titus, chapter three: By the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ, our Savior, that, being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying.

[Baptism with water] signifies that the old Adam in us should, by daily contrition and repentance, be drowned and die with all sins and evil lusts, and, again, a new man daily come forth and arise; who shall live before God in righteousness and purity forever.

...

Btw...there's some funky shit going on with the quoting system.

[frazz]

Mark 16:16 Early Christians were typically not Christians from birth. Invariably, they received the Holy Spirit through hearing the Word and were baptized for assurance afterwards.
This is a two part verse. Early - Word is part 1. Thus they were saved AFTER they heard the word. were baptized for assurance is part 2. They were baptized as a declaration of their faith. It is not what saved them. Why don't you read the surrounding verses? I am sure you will not find that Mark 16:17 says "For by baptism you were saved, not of faith"

[Kingscrab]

Because your pronouns are wrong. The Holy Spirit creates the faith, not the listener. So, it doesn't matter if you understand or not? Seems like the equivalant of a spiritual lottery. Good luck! Of course, preaching to people in an alien language is obviously stupid in any case. Isn't that how early missionaries first started their work? You think they spoke every obscure language of the natives they tried to convert? An inaccuracy acceptable for its simplicity. You could just say "no" if that's what you mean. Reading your posts i sometimes feel like i'm going in circles trying to understand what you mean. It would be nice to have a graph or some charts telling me what can or can't save our souls. I mean really... Between the relevance of baptism, the Holy Spirit randomly bestowing the revelation of faith on you, accepting Jesus as the son of God and the ambiguity of what is or isn't sin, it's a wonder that anyone gets to heaven. :confused:

[frazz]

Heres a chart:

Faith(required)
|
|
|
|
|
|
| ____ Baptizing(not required)

People like to think they can just baptize their kids and not have to worry about how they live their lives or whether they actually are saved. They can think what they want to.


the Holy Spirit randomly bestowing the revelation of faith on you That's jsut something FL(or lutherans) made up. The holy spirit is bestowed upon you AFTER you are saved. People tend to misquote verses concerning baptism and the Holy Spirit.

[Markpyro]

I believe God is fair; he'll judge those who are capable of being judged and spare those who aren't.

All who sin will be judged. Judgment is not based on some arbitrary human standard of ‘who has had a fair opportunity to hear the Gospel.’ It is based on sin. Period. Making the law palatable to our sense of fairness defeats the purpose of Christianity altogether.

Are you saying that God created those mentally ill just to smite them into "The fiery pits of hell"? I was in belief that God loved all his creations, and wouldnt be as cruel as to submit someone so innocent.

Saying this, do mentally challenged persons know that they're sinning? Thus, can they really be charged as sinners?

[GenocideAlive]

So, it doesn't matter if you understand or not? Seems like the equivalant of a spiritual lottery. Good luck!
Ahhahaha! Good luck to you too, bro! Hope to see you guys on the other side--my numbers are 6-21-3-11-5-4.
Reading your posts i sometimes feel like i'm going in circles trying to understand what you mean.
This is sort of a two-stroke manuever, to both confuse the uninitiated and to lend his naked Christian zeal in a very factual clothing.
Saying this, do mentally challenged persons know that they're sinning? Thus, can they really be charged as sinners?
Ahahahah! Knowledge of sin has nothing to do with sin, you silly goose! Of course they can burn in hell for not knowing better! They're sons of Adam--they're destined for hell anyway because 1000000000000 generations ago some dude they never met ate some fruit. They either get on board with G or their flesh cooks eternally. ...What?

The fact of the matter is according to the Bible, God is all-knowing: past, future, present. He could have just created the faithful beings as they would have been after living their lives in heaven with him, but instead he elected to create both faithful and unfaithful and stick 'em in there for shits and giggles. Then he forces them to live in the miserable flesh, kills them, then tortures them or forces them to spend every waking second kissing his ass.

Who are we to say he's a bad person or question his perfect plan?

[Ender]

As this topic has the sensitive nature of religion, I'd like to remind everyone of two things:

1) You're doing well so far. Keep up being polite.

2) If something rubs the wrong way, turn the other cheek.

[FallenLord]

You could just say "no" if that's what you mean. Reading your posts i sometimes feel like i'm going in circles trying to understand what you mean. It would be nice to have a graph or some charts telling me what can or can't save our souls. I mean really...(Man sins. God is just. God is loving. On the cross, God's love and justice converge to pay for our sins.)

To answer your question in definite terms:

In order to be saved, you must have faith that Jesus justified you before God.
However, this faith does not come from us; we are spiritually dead and enemies of God.
How to get this faith? There are two promised mechanisms:
Hearing the Word of God (i.e., the Bible or a sermon) preached.
Baptism.
The Holy Spirit is the delivery mechanism, he works to create faith in us.
When you hear the Word, the Holy Spirit nurtures and strengths your faith and attacks your sinful nature.
Baptism is more than simply receiving the Holy Spirit, it is also a public confession of faith and an assurance of salvation for humble Christians.Consider new Christians. There are two types; infants and adults/(children). Generally speaking, adult converts have already received the Holy Spirit through hearing the Word. This make actually have been a long process over many years that the Holy Spirit has finally won. Thus, you could argue from a hyper-technical standpoint that baptism isn't necessary, since they already have the Holy Spirit/faith. However, they should still of course be baptized because it was commanded, is a public confession and also an assurance of salvation and the Holy Spirit.

On the other hand, infants can't exactly tell you what's going on in their heads, plus they haven't been around very long to hear the Word. Thus, they are baptized with the Holy Spirit as a 'pre-emptive' measure. The Holy Spirit accordingly works saving faith in them. Further strengthening of their faith will occur as the Holy Spirit works on them as they hear the Word and are brought up in it.

Finally, there is the critical topic of living as a Christian. The devil, the world and our sinful nature attack the faith that is in us and try to drive out the Holy Spirit or dull us to his effects. Without further intervention from the Holy Spirit, He will often eventually be drowned out. This is why it is incorrect to say that baptism "alone" saves. If you want your faith through the Holy Spirit to remain strong or grow, it's necessary for you to continue to be exposed to the Holy Spirit through the hearing of the Word. If you just get baptized and then forget about it, what good does that do you?

However, when you are talking with serious Christians (not people looking for an 'instant win' button) who may have doubts about the assurance of their salvation from time to time, baptism is the key marker of assurance that they do have saving faith.

You think they spoke every obscure language of the natives they tried to convert?It's not clear where you are going...

So, it doesn't matter if you understand or not? Seems like the equivalant of a spiritual lottery. Good luck!Non sequitor...? The Word is the Word, and I think any Christian nowadays would bend over backwards to ensure you could understand it. As far as a 'lottery,' the Holy Spirits' invasion tactics (hearing the Word and baptism) are well publicized. Nothing mysterious there.

The holy spirit is bestowed upon you AFTER you are saved.The Holy Spirit is what creates the faith to allow you to be saved in the first place.

People like to think they can just baptize their kids and not have to worry about how they live their lives or whether they actually are saved. They can think what they want to.What people? (The vast majority of the Lutheran infant baptism ritual involves the parents/sponsors promising to raise the infant in the Word.)

Are you saying that God created those mentally ill just to smite them...Where do you get the idea that the mentally ill can't have the Holy Spirit and the faith he creates?

Saying this, do mentally challenged persons know that they're sinning?If they have faith from the Holy Spirit, God will forgive them just like he forgives everyone else.

[Markpyro]

What about those uncapable of comprehending faith? You cant make someone believe something if they dont understand.

[frazz]

What people? (The vast majority of the Lutheran infant baptism ritual involves the parents/sponsors promising to raise the infant in the Word.)
Riiiiiiiight.... And anyone who promises can't possibly be lying.
How to get this faith? There are two promised mechanisms:
Hearing the Word of God (i.e., the Bible or a sermon) preached.
Baptism.
NOWHERE in the Bible does it say you have to be baptized to be saved.
So, it doesn't matter if you understand or not? Seems like the equivalant of a spiritual lottery. Good luck!

Non sequitor...? The Word is the Word, and I think any Christian nowadays would bend over backwards to ensure you could understand it. As far as a 'lottery,' the Holy Spirits' invasion tactics (hearing the Word and baptism) are well publicized. Nothing mysterious there.

So mentally ill people can't be saved?

[FallenLord]

You cant make someone believe something if they dont understand.So mentally ill people can't be saved?Matthew 19:26 (But that generalizes to everyone, anyway.)

NOWHERE in the Bible does it say you have to be baptized to be saved....In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[e] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.Anyway, what is the purpose of baptism, according to your doctrine?

Riiiiiiiight.... And anyone who promises can't possibly be lying.How cynical. The people I personally know who don't consider it a major priority to actively train their children don't understand what baptism means to begin with, so I highly doubt that they are relying on a baptism = "fire and forget" philosophy.

[Ubergopher]

Anyway, what is the purpose of baptism, according to your doctrine?
In my church we use baptism as a public statement of faith. The best example of this I can think of is person A is in the military and he needs to show an ID to get into a bar he can either
A. Show his military ID and let the person know he's in the military
or
B. Show his drivers liscense and not let the person know.

It is basically a choice, neither one is wrong but IMO if you did something as life altering as accepting Christ as your Saviour why NOT show it by being bapitized

btw. yes I do know that my ID card analogy is not exacct, but I believe it was close enough to suit my purpose

[frazz]

Anyway, what is the purpose of baptism, according to your doctrine?
You have misunderstood the verse.
Baptism with water is the vivid symbol of the changed life of one who has a conscience at peace with God through faith in Christ.
It is symbolic, not literal. Kinda like ubergopher's post.
btw I believe the same thing he does(concerning baptism anyway).

[hammocksleeper]

I placed this in the IR because I want genuine and serious replies from some of our resident theists.

Here's my dilemma. Your entrance to heaven is based upon your the concept of accepting Jesus Christ as your savior, right? Ok, with this in mind, how would God approach a mentally handicapped person whom is unable to discern the complexities of a God, much less the conscious act of giving your soul to Jesus?

For instance, let's say that we're dealing with a mentally handicapped person with an IQ of 25. This person is essentially helpless, there is no chance that they will understand the concept of religion. Does this person receive a free pass to heaven? And if so, at what point does God draw the line? What IQ level does God decide that a human is capable of making this decision? The same could question could be asked for brain damaged patients.

This also brings up an similar question. If a person with highly advanced thinking has rationalized the non-existence of God based on logic and lack of evidence, why would God punish this person for using their gift of "life and intellect" to make this deduction? It seems that God made us to be logical and rational people, why would we be expected to believe in something without a tangible foundation? If God had desired humans to acknowledge the existence of God, would it not be more appropriate to give us some evidence, or at the very least an inherent belief?

Please, I ask that you give serious consideration to my thoughts. I would prefer not to see answers like "God knows" or "God works in mysterious ways." I am inviting some serious discussion, no flaming, no derogatory remarks towards your beliefs.

One is only let into the Kingdom of God through the grace of God. Mortals have no power to determine whether our good works or faith in Jesus will let us in. To us, God's grace might as well be arbitrary. We can only follow Jesus' example, pray, ask forgiveness, and repent. There's a scripture that I'm trying to think of, I'm not sure what it is but Ephesians 2:8-9 NASB says it sort of, it's not exactly what I was thinking of but it fits.

We've got not clue if God will let retarded folk into his kingdom, but he's all-powerful, and if he wants to he will do it. (I know, you asked that people not give that kind of answer ;)) Basically nothing you can do will change the way God thinks of you, he already knows everything about you. That's what the scripture says that I was looking for.

[FallenLord]

Ubergopher, frazz:

It's quite clear that baptism is something more than simply a public statement of faith and certainly more than an 'arbitrary' choice. Matthew 28:19-20, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Romans 6:3-4, 1 Corinthians 12:13, Galatians 3:26-27, Ephesians 4:5, Colossians 2:11-12, 1 Peter 3:20-22

You have misunderstood the verse.That's easy to say. :rolleyes:

Mortals have no power to determine whether our good works or faith in Jesus will let us in. To us, God's grace might as well be arbitrary. We can only follow Jesus' example, pray, ask forgiveness, and repent.How do you figure?

Leosam:

What's the age of accountability for sin?

...

One reason Lutheranism is neat is because we place total 100% reliance on God for everything, including (but not limited to) creating the faith in us which saves. Since we believe this is a work of God and not a work of man, Lutherans do not have to worry about whether or not we are saved. We don't participate in our salvation (God does it all), so there's nothing we can do to mess it up; God can create saving faith in an infant or mentally ill person the same as any other person. Suggestions that assume that infants or the mentally ill are somehow "missing out" on an aspect necessary for salvation simply make an incorrect assumption. The real problem is that we are spiritually dead. Infants, adults, mentally handicapped, we are all equally spiritually dead. If the Holy Spirit can create saving faith in an adult, it is no surprise that he can create saving faith in an infant or mentally ill person. Colossians 2:11-12

Lest this confuse anyone, this is (again) talking about "serious" Christians who are regularly in the Word and in fellowship. (This includes reading the Bible to infants or the mentally ill.) This is not talking about people looking for loopholes or an instant win button.

[Sargallikus]

My two cents would be this. I don't believe that people go to heaven or hell in general, I think people face the prospect of either dying with no hope of ever living again or dying with the hope of a resurrection to eternal life in a new paradise, but anyway on to the main point...

God is a reader of peoples hearts, so if a person is lacking the necessary mental faculties to make the choice to serve God, he could judge whether or not that person if given a sound and healthy mind would be willing to submit to his Sovereignty. Can I say that all handicapped people will be given the mercy of being recreated in sound mind? No, because the fact is that God doesn't tell us everything in the Bible, but I would surmise that there is a strong possibilty that, based upon God's mercy, he would ressurect many of them.

That is much the same way I feel about people who in the past milleniums never heard the word of God or had the chance to submit to the rule of God. Would God judge them worthy of eternal death if they never had the chance to hear about God or Jesus? I hardly think that would fit the loving and just God of the Bible. I would imagine that many Native Americans who died in a land where, presumably, no one had ever heard anything about the Christian God until the Europeans showed up, would be shown mercy.

[hammocksleeper]

How do you figure?

To clarify, I didn't say it was arbritary, I only said it might as well be, in that we don't have any control over our salvation; it's entirely up to God.

[frazz]

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
This only says that you should be baptized. It does not say you MUST be baptized. It does say that if you truly believe, you will take the opportunity to be baptized.
Matthew 28:19-20
This is Jesus saying to baptize. Not him saying that baptism is the way to heaven.
Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Galatians 3:26-27
Same deal with those

1 Corinthians 12:13, Colossians 2:11-12, Romans 6:3-4
Symbolic(no, I did read them, and I read their surrounding verses. that is pretty obviously symbolic stuff.)
Ephesians 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
If you read this verse in context(4-6 instead of just 5) you would have found that this is only speaking of the unity of the church, and the fact that there is one God.
1 Peter 3:20-22
You have misunderstood the verse.
Baptism with water is the vivid symbol of the changed life of one who has a conscience at peace with God through faith in Christ.
It is symbolic, not literal. Kinda like ubergopher's post.
infact, it says symbolizes in the verse
and that's what I was referring to in my earlier post. sorry for the confusion.

So I do see the importance of baptism, but it is not neccesary. Though using certain particular verses you could argue for it(that is if you ignore the verse below).
But you CANNOT find a verse which says that baptising babys will get them into heaven. That is where Lutherans(and many other denominations) go way off.

So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

[FallenLord]

To clarify, I didn't say it was arbritary, I only said it might as well be, in that we don't have any control over our salvation; it's entirely up to God.Okay, but God tells us two of the mechanisms through which He (the Holy Spirit) works; hearing the Word and baptism.

...

Since this is getting off-track, the simplest answer to Nut's question is that there's nothing magical about anyone which somehow renders them incapable of being saved. Thus, there is no reason for God to grant special favor to anyone.

...

Jesus: Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved...
frazz 1: Whoever believes [...] will be saved [and should be baptized]...
frazz 2: Whoever [truly] believes [...] will be saved [and will take the opportunity to be baptized]...Why do you find it necessary to butcher what Jesus says?

This is Jesus saying to baptize. Not him saying that baptism is the way to heaven.You say tomato.

If you read this verse in context(4-6 instead of just 5) you would have found that this is only speaking of the unity of the church, and the fact that there is one God....and one faith and one baptism. Notice how baptism is right up there with God and faith.

So I do see the importance of baptism, but it is not neccesary.If you're not baptized, you have no assurance that you have the Holy Spirit and the saving faith he provides.

infact, it says symbolizes in the verse
and that's what I was referring to in my earlier post. sorry for the confusion.Actually, it says the Flood symbolizes baptism. Then it says that baptism "now saves you," just like the Flood saved Noah and his family. (And the Flood didn't "symbolically" save Noah.) 1 Peter 3:20-22

SymbolicIs your faith symbolic too?

But you CANNOT find a verse which says that baptising babys will get them into heaven.Sure. But Lutherans don't break the Bible down into verses and study each verse individually. Our confessions address the Bible as a whole unit. Thus, just as the waters of the Flood saved Noah, so the waters of baptism save us. 1 Peter 3:20-22 (Infants and the mentally disabled are people too, so they're included.)

*31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household." 32Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. 33At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized.What?

You're beating around the bush, frazz. The Holy Spirit comes through baptism. When he comes, he creates saving faith. That is why Peter says, "baptism now saves you." You can get the Holy Spirit through hearing the Word, but how can you be sure? Baptism makes sure.

[frazz]

OK. I see you did not adress Acts 16:31
anywho..
Sure. But Lutherans don't break the Bible down into verses and study each verse individually. Our confessions address the Bible as a whole unit. Thus, just as the waters of the Flood saved Noah, so the waters of baptism save us. 1 Peter 3:20-22 (Infants and the mentally disabled are people too, so they're included.
The Bible may mention baptism right up there, but to be saved, by studying the bible as a whole, you will find that faith is primary.
So here's a scenario...
A baby is born, but dies minutes later. He goes to hell because he is not baptized then?

And real believers shouldn't need baptism as 'insurnace'. they should know in their heart. Real salvation somes through faith, not something physical like baptism.
Since Acts 16:31 explicitly says to believe in order to be saved, I believe faith is the only thing that truly saves you. If you don't have the mental capacity to even tell right from wrong, you can't get that concept, and I think babys and mentally handicaps go to heaven.
Since this is getting off-track, the simplest answer to Nut's question is that there's nothing magical about anyone which somehow renders them incapable of being saved. Thus, there is no reason for God to grant special favor to anyone.
that is your answer. But it depends on baptism being the way to heaven.
so the waters of baptism save us
not faith? like Acts 16:31
Baptism makes sure.
when I was saved, I knew for sure. I was baptized, but I knew I was already going to heaven.

[FallenLord]

Since I've been saying all along that baptism gives faith (through the Holy Spirit), it's particularly odd how you incessantly insinuate that baptism is simply a sterile, disconnected, physical procedure. According to you, "Faith saves, baptism is unrelated." Yet baptism is assurance that you have the Holy Spirit and, accordingly, faith.

Think of it this way: Hearing the Word inches the door open. Baptism kicks it down. Baptism drowns the Old Adam through the power of the Holy Spirit. Hearing the Word is like a faucet you forgot to turn off: the steady action of the Holy Spirit will strengthen your faith - but there's no shock-and-awe. (See the 'one sows, another reaps' references - spreading the Word usually takes a long time to have an effect.)

Faith saves; yet since we are spiritually dead, saving faith must come from outside us. Namely, the Holy Spirit. We are promised that the Holy Spirit works through baptism to create faith and through the hearing of the Word to create/maintain it. Of course, the Holy Spirit can work however he wants to and create faith outside of these promised means. Yet we rely on the promised means.

If you think baptism doesn't give the Holy Spirit or that faith can come apart from the Holy Spirit, that's fine. But stop the strawmen. Thanks.

OK. I see you did not adress Acts 16:31*31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household." 32Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. 33At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized.What?What?

not faith? like Acts 16:31Why would you pit Scripture against Scripture? Can you explain Peter's words, or do you just ignore them? In Acts 16:31, the jailer and his family were immediately baptized, which is consistent with what I've said.

A baby is born, but dies minutes later. He goes to hell because he doesn't have faith?Is that what you meant to say?

[JimRaynor117]

South Park did a surprisingly thought-provoking episode about this over Timmy's admission into heaven.

Don't know if anyone saw it....

[frazz]

Is that what you meant to say?
I was asking you. Now give an answer already.
Why would you pit Scripture against Scripture? Can you explain Peter's words, or do you just ignore them? In Acts 16:31, the jailer and his family were immediately baptized, which is consistent with what I've said.
So you admit that faith gives salvation. Good. I do believe that once you believe you should be baptized. I do believe baptism is a very important thing for a Christian to do.
But you earlier claimed(I don't know if you still do) that baptism gives salvation. There are plenty of people who have believed and died soon after before they could be baptised. I believe that by faith they have been saved. I don't remember the reference:
"For by grace you have been saved through faith"
so i believe fiath saves you. and grace. Baptism is important, but not neccesary.

[FallenLord]

Are you just ignoring 95% of my posts? Or what? Stop using the same ridiculous strawman.

Baptism saves because the Holy Spirit promises to work through it and create saving faith. Stop ignoring the fact that the Holy Spirit works through baptism and creates faith.

(You evidently don't believe that the Holy Spirit works through baptism. It's possible you also don't believe that the Holy Spirit is even necessary to have saving faith.)

There are plenty of people who have believed and died soon after before they could be baptised. I believe that by faith they have been saved.So do I. But that doesn't change the fact that the Holy Spirit promises to create saving faith through baptism.

I was asking you. Now give an answer already.Obviously a person who does not have saving faith will not go to heaven. Unless that person hasn't sinned. Do you think infants are perfect?

[frazz]

Obviously a person who does not have saving faith will not go to heaven. Unless that person hasn't sinned. Do you think infants are perfect?
So you think baptism creates saving faith in any yahoo that gets dunked under water in a church? A baby cannot have faith, because it does not have any concept of that. You are essentialy forcing faith on a baby who does not know what it is.
Here's another scenario(please I am just trying to clarify): A baby is brought to church on a sunday to get baptized. As the parents bring the baby to be baptised, the baby suffers a heart attack from a birth defect. This happens only seconds before the baby is baptised. The baby would go to hell because of a lack of physical baptism?

In a book(can't remember which one) David commited adultery, and the Lord killed the baby as punishment. David fasted and prayed. He asked the Lord to sapre his life, even though he would see the baby again. There was no baptism in that book.
Are you just ignoring 95% of my posts? Or what? Stop using the same ridiculous strawman.
Your arguments are redundant sometimes, so I rebuke a few.
So do I. But that doesn't change the fact that the Holy Spirit promises to create saving faith through baptism.
So what do you believe? Do you believe baptism saves, or do you beleive faith and grace saves?
then immediately he and all his family were baptized.
Yes. Baptism is important. But that verse says believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you willl be saved.
Also note John 3:16

[FallenLord]

Just can't get those strawmen out of your system, I guess...

So you think the Holy Spirit works through baptism [and] creates saving faith in any yahoo that gets dunked under water in a church?Fixed. It's not my fault the Holy Spirit is promised to work through baptism.

A baby cannot have faith, because it does not have any concept of that. You are essentialy forcing faith on a baby who does not know what it is.Don't stuff God into your tiny little box, thanks. He can and does give faith in the ways he promised. And yes, the entire purpose of infant baptism (and evangelism) is to "force" the Holy Spirit on people so he can create faith in them despite the fact that they are spiritually dead and enemies of God.

So what do you believe? Do you believe baptism saves, or do you beleive faith and grace saves?Baptism is a mechanism through which the Holy Spirit creates saving faith. Baptism, the Holy Spirit, and saving faith all go together; stop trying to split them apart.

A baby is brought to church on a sunday to get baptized. As the parents bring the baby to be baptised, the baby suffers a heart attack from a birth defect. This happens only seconds before the baby is baptised. The baby would go to hell because of a lack of physical baptism?People only go to hell because of a lack of saving faith. Baptism shoves the Holy Spirit and saving faith down your throat. The Holy Spirit can "arbitrarily" create faith in an infant if he chooses to, but we know he does in baptism. Which is what I have been saying continuously. (That is the last of these hyper-contrived "examples" I am going to dignify with a response.)

In a book(can't remember which one) David commited adultery, and the Lord killed the baby as punishment. David fasted and prayed. He asked the Lord to sapre his life, even though he would see the baby again. There was no baptism in that book.Baptism is the new circumcision, and the baby had been circumcised.

Your arguments are redundant sometimes, so I ignore a few.Fixed. Like how you ignore that the Holy Spirit comes through baptism and creates saving faith.

[Ubergopher]

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

So call me crazy, but to me it sounds like baptism is the works part of that verse. ALSO one question I've got, have you ever seen someone as a teen get baptised just to keep their parents happy? So even though he is baptised but doesn't share the faith what do you call that?

[FallenLord]

ALSO one question I've got, have you ever seen someone as a teen get baptised just to keep their parents happy? So even though he is baptised but doesn't share the faith what do you call that?It's called rejection. But the Holy Spirit still works on people, especially those who have baptized, even if they reject his saving faith. This is why people often return to the Church later in life; the Holy Spirit is very persistent.

So call me crazy, but to me it sounds like baptism is the works part of that verse.Our works do not save us; God's works (such as faith and baptism) do save us. Baptism is a work of God, one in which the Holy Spirit creates saving faith.

One of the major Reformed doctrinal themes is minimizing God's work and putting it in a human box, especially the work of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit doesn't create saving faith, it's something we "choose" in ourselves. Baptism isn't a work of the Holy Spirit, it's just a symbolic ritual. Babies can't have saving faith because they can't reason. The Lord's Supper is symbolic because it makes no sense. Etc.

[frazz]

It's called rejection. But the Holy Spirit still works on people, especially those who have baptized, even if they reject his saving faith. This is why people often return to the Church later in life; the Holy Spirit is very persistent.
So basically parents can force their troubled teen to get baptised. At that point the teen has two options
1. Be baptised and forget about it. In which case he unknowingly saves himself(or the HS or w/e)
2. His parents can shove him into the water and give him saving faith through baptism. :confused:
Fixed. It's not my fault the Holy Spirit is promised to work through baptism.
so that's a yes. Any old yahoo can walk in the church, dunk himself in the water, leave before the sermon, and call himself savd. ok. that makes sense.
Don't stuff God into your tiny little box, thanks. He can and does give faith in the ways he promised. And yes, the entire purpose of infant baptism (and evangelism) is to "force" the Holy Spirit on people so he can create faith in them despite the fact that they are spiritually dead and enemies of God.
excuse me for my box stuffing, but whatever happened to free will?
Baptism is a mechanism through which the Holy Spirit creates saving faith. Baptism, the Holy Spirit, and saving faith all go together; stop trying to split them apart.
that may be, but you did npt answer my question.
People only go to hell because of a lack of saving faith. Baptism shoves the Holy Spirit and saving faith down your throat. The Holy Spirit can "arbitrarily" create faith in an infant if he chooses to, but we know he does in baptism. Which is what I have been saying continuously. (That is the last of these hyper-contrived "examples" I am going to dignify with a response.)
OIC. It's the spiritual lottery again.
But I will stop with the ridiculously unlikely scenarios.
Baptism is the new circumcision, and the baby had been circumcised.
fair enough.
Fixed. Like how you ignore that the Holy Spirit comes through baptism and creates saving faith.
I see you are working on that UN-redundancy:rolleyes:
And you made your argument totally relative to mine.:rolleyes:
EDIT:See? And I didn't even have to pull out that For by grace you have been saved through faith "strawman"

[FallenLord]

Once again, you've evaded addressing the fact that the Holy Spirit works through baptism to create faith. Or that the Holy Spirit does anything, for that matter.

So what do you think, frazz? Does the Holy Spirit play any role in your faith whatsoever? Or does he just sit on the sidelines applauding when you "decide" to "choose" Jesus?

excuse me for my box stuffing, but whatever happened to free will?Spiritually alive people with saving faith can choose to reject the Holy Spirit and their faith and go back to being spiritually dead. However, spiritually dead people cannot choose to resurrect themselves, they can only be made alive through the power of the Holy Spirit. Baptism is a promised means for spiritual resurrection. And you can reject your baptism.

It's the spiritual lottery againYeah, where the jackpot is B A P T I S M.

]that may be, but you did npt answer my question.Your question is silly. You can't split baptism from faith.

So basically parents can force their troubled teen to get baptised.This scenario is limited to people who believe baptism is a powerless exercise in symbolism. Namely, non-Lutherans. (Lutherans would have baptized you about 14 years before you went 'emo.')

so that's a yes. Any old yahoo can walk in the church, dunk himself in the water, leave before the sermon, and call himself savd. ok. that makes sense.strawman = YA RLY :rolleyes:

BTW and FYI, a strawman is when you twist/ignore what I say before attacking it.

[frazz]

Once again, you've evaded addressing the fact that the Holy Spirit works through baptism to create faith. Or that the Holy Spirit does anything, for that matter.

So what do you think, frazz? Does the Holy Spirit play any role in your faith whatsoever? Or does he just sit on the sidelines applauding when you "decide" to "choose" Jesus?
oK. here is my addres. NOWHERE in the Bible does it say "Baptism saves you" or "baptism makes saving faith". And MANY times Jesus simply said "Your sins are forgivven. MANY times in the bible it says "faith saves"
And the Holy spirit(I'll look up the verse later) helps you know what is right and wrong. Tells you what to pray for. The verse is near the end of one of the Gospels.
Yeah, where the jackpot is B A P T I S M.
So you agree.
Your question is silly. You can't split baptism from faith.
Once again, you've evaded my question. Obviously you have no answer. (Other than: You can't do that! no fair!)
This scenario is limited to people who believe baptism is a powerless exercise in symbolism. Namely, non-Lutherans. (Lutherans would have baptized you about 14 years before you went 'emo.')
So whether or not you get saved depends upon family ties. Or pure luck.(see spiritual lottery)
strawman = YA RLY

BTW and FYI, a strawman is when you twist/ignore what I say before attacking it.

Like you haven't been doing that.
:shiftyl: :shiftyr:

[GenocideAlive]

Once again, you've evaded addressing the fact that the Holy Spirit works through baptism to create faith.
I'm curious, if baptism had something to do with the Holy Spirit, then why was Jesus baptised?

The Holy Spirit is dead Jesus, so why does he baptise himself? Why were people baptised before Jesus was dead?

[FallenLord]

frazz:

Faith saves. The Holy Spirit creates faith. Baptism, among other things, is a delivery mechanism for the Holy Spirit.

1 Peter 3:21 "...BAPTISM that NOW SAVES YOU."

There is no saving faith apart from the Holy Spirit.

...

GA:

Jesus was baptized to fulfill prophesy and set an example.

The Holy Spirit is dead Jesus, so why does he baptise himself? Why were people baptised before Jesus was dead?...come again?

[frazz]

1 Peter 3:21 "...BAPTISM that NOW SAVES YOU."
I see you have one verse in the context of several other verses that are not focused on that.
LOTS of verses say faith saves. ONE says baptism saves. In a way, baptism is a symbol of salvation. A declaration that you have the Holy Spirit in you and you are saved. btw, PETER said that. On the other hand, JESUS said many times that your faith saves you. Every time he heals someone, he says "your faith has made you well". Baptism is important but it does not save.
I also see you have abandoned every other argument you had, and re-stated your idea without any reference to what I said.


I'm curious, if baptism had something to do with the Holy Spirit, then why was Jesus baptised?

The Holy Spirit is dead Jesus, so why does he baptise himself? Why were people baptised before Jesus was dead?
Once again you do not know what you are talking about. The HS is not dead Jesus. Read the Bible. Or an overview. Or something.

[GenocideAlive]

Father = God Proper
Son = Jesus
Holy Spirit = Jesus Ressurrected (Dead Jesus)

Am I confused, here? It seems pretty straightforward.

[Ubergopher]

Father = God Proper
Son = Jesus
Holy Spirit = Jesus Ressurrected (Dead Jesus)

Am I confused, here? It seems pretty straightforward.

I'd be interested in seeing where you got that from. It is right in a sense, but not completly true.
God= Jesus= Holy Spirit. All 3 are the same, but different purposes. This probably isn't the best analogy and FL will probably disagree with me but here it goes anyway.
My dad's name is Terry. (The father)
His mother is named Barb (the son)
and he works at a lumber store (the Holy Spirit)

Now granted we can't comprehend the actual way it works because God is infinte and our minds are finite, but that is one of the best examples I can think of that humans can understand.

[FallenLord]

GA, the Holy Spirit is a separate person in the trinity. He is not Jesus.

Interesting to see how an article on if mentally retarded people can comprehend the idea of faith and god turned into yet another discussion on the myriad different facets of christian idealogy and its interpretation, having different ideas on this dotrine, forgetting the original enquiry.Not really. The entire point of the matter is that certain doctrines give little hope to the mentally immature/disabled. Others, which refuse to rob the Holy Spirit of his power, do. And Nuts' question was already answered.

Now granted we can't comprehend the actual way it works because God is infinte and our minds are finite, but that is one of the best examples I can think of that humans can understand.I can't even comprehend your analogy.

frazz, you win. :tup:

[frazz]

frazz, you win.
Thanks.

I can't even comprehend your analogy.
here's another analogy.
God is the big father of everything.
Jesus is God incarnate on earth.
The Holy spirit is what communicates between us and God. It allows a relationship directly with Jesus(and thus with God)

And yes GA, you are very confused.

[GenocideAlive]

God is the big father of everything.
Jesus is God incarnate on earth. I think you'll find that almost everyone that considers themselves worshipping Yaweh or Jehovah or El or whatever has a different opinion regarding this little tidbit.
The Holy spirit is what communicates between us and God. It allows a relationship directly with Jesus(and thus with God)Because Jesus died on the cross, he was risen and that pact is what provides Man Salvation despite his sins. The sacrifice of his flesh resulted in Jesus' reincarnation in the Spirit, e.g., the Holy Spirit. This HS now embodies the sacrifice of Jesus and now provides Salvation to mankind.


From Ender: I deleted that last flame. Genocide, 1 more personal strike like that, and you're gone. Keep it down.

From Genocide: Warboards has this dandy feature called PMs. As fun as it is to grandstand your ability to edit posts by leaving others messages with Clint Eastwoodesque threats, it's very disruptive and about as useful as the flames that have you so concerned.

[GrassDragon]

Romans 10:10

Badabing.

And to argue against what FallenLord argued at the beginning of this thread (that you can be preached to in a language you don't understand and still receive... something), here's 1 Corinthians 14:6-12. Paul is talking about speaking in tongues, but the point is essentially the same. Even if you are preaching to someone, if they have no idea what you are saying it is pointless.

[FallenLord]

Real words have meanings. Even if you don't understand them. (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%202:6;&version=31;) 'Tongues' is the equivalent of babbling. It has no meaning to anyone except God. And even that assumes the person isn't simply showing off or having a seizure.

But in any case, try not to take me too seriously when I'm responding to anti-realistic examples designed to mock the role of the Holy Spirit.

[GenocideAlive]

Real words have meanings. Even if you don't understand them. 'Tongues' is the equivalent of babbling. It has no meaning to anyone except God. And even that assumes the person isn't simply showing off
And the IR enters into a realm of surrealism.

[Protogod]

alright kiddies, although i dont believe in god, or any religion, the reason i believe so happens to be because im a tad knowledgeable in those regards.

i was too lazy to read the whole 6 pages of this thread, so forgive me if i reiterate something. those who are mentally handicapped are not in control of their actions. that handicap is a daemon to them, they struggle to live with it. plus, god gave it to them. by living with it, they are still following god's plan. as long as their supposed "soul" does what it can to do good, that "soul" is worthy of heaven. you must note, that religions of old do not note the significance of the brain, or its chemicals. rather, they note people by their "spirit"s. so, theoretically, if their "spirit" were pure, their physical mind would be irrelevant.


of course, i am being hypocritical by even arguing this, as once more, i find the idea of a "god" to be preposterous

[frazz]

alright kiddies, although i dont believe in god, or any religion,
This is looking bad
the reason i believe so happens to be because im a tad knowledgeable in those regards.
Boastful?
i was too lazy to read the whole 6 pages of this thread,
You shouldn't be here.
so forgive me if i reiterate something.
You are.
those who are mentally handicapped are not in control of their actions. that handicap is a daemon to them, they struggle to live with it. plus, god gave it to them. by living with it, they are still following god's plan. as long as their supposed "soul" does what it can to do good, that "soul" is worthy of heaven.
i thought you didn't believe in all that.
you must note, that religions of old do not note the significance of the brain, or its chemicals.
Howabout make a new one?
rather, they note people by their "spirit"s. so, theoretically, if their "spirit" were pure, their physical mind would be irrelevant.
Spiritual lottery again
of course, i am being hypocritical by even arguing this
That is true.
as once more, i find the idea of a "god" to be preposterous
Agai, why are you here?

In closing...
Read the thread before posting(stating you did not do so makes it look worse).
You also claim to know a lot of things you don't.

[Neo]

Proto has an interesting point. But then does this mean that those people who are mentally messed up and cuase/go out and murder, rape and pillage still able to get into heaven even if their life is full of 'sins'?

Though I don't like to think of anything in terms of Heaven/Hell. I just don't think even God is cruel enough to punish an incorporeal being because of something they did/didn't do when they were corporeal.

err something.

And I would really enjoy it if someone could explain to me the whole "speaking in tongues" bit, because it seems incredibly... odd.

-Neo

[FallenLord]

Proto has an interesting point. But then does this mean that those people who are mentally messed up and cuase/go out and murder, rape and pillage still able to get into heaven even if their life is full of 'sins'?The sins you commit in life actually have no relevance to salvation. (That is actually what makes Christianity Christianity.) Saving faith from the Holy Spirit is the only relevant factor. (Saving faith which is promised to come through baptism and is, accordingly, the exact opposite of a so-called "spiritual lottery.")

And I would really enjoy it if someone could explain to me the whole "speaking in tongues" bit, because it seems incredibly... odd.In reality, speaking in tongues just means speaking intelligibly in a language you don't otherwise understand. Acts 2

[GenocideAlive]

If you'd read the thread, you'd have known that it is already swimming in half-assed, poorly-conceived, flat-out-anti-Christian lies.
As opposed to half-assed, poorly-conceived [sic], Christian lies? Since when did you guys get so picky?
God hates strawmen.
WOOOOHOOOOOOOOO! God hates whatever I say he does!
Yes, the Reformed tend to make everything incredibly odd.
YIPPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! Lies lies liez! Lies about you, lies about me, lies about other Christians!
In reality, speaking in tongues just means speaking intelligibly in a language you don't otherwise understand.
In reality, it's some quasi-religious act that amounts to epilepsy. But let's stay a comfortable distance from reality, because when dealing with reality, none of your hocus pocus crap exists.

[FallenLord]

The Bible is made up of words with absolute definitions. It is possible to assign false definitions to these words and promote said lies as factual. Real Lutherans™ are about as picky as anyone else when it comes to false definitions.

[GenocideAlive]

After you blatantly start name calling and insulting people's posts, motives, and content, you have a cutesy little blurb about ad hominem. Then you add a few more insults at the end. Well, at least we'll know when someone's stolen your acct--that kind of behavior is pretty distinctive.

[Neo]

The sins you commit in life actually have no relevance to salvation. (That is actually what makes Christianity Christianity.) Saving faith from the Holy Spirit is the only relevant factor. (Saving faith which is promised to come through baptism and is, accordingly, the exact opposite of a so-called "spiritual lottery.")
Uhm so your telling me that the most evil person, doing the most evil things imaginable won't be judged and punished by going to hell? Theres still a chance that, say, hitler is in heaven? Thats pretty fucked up.

It sounds like your saying that you don't have to follow Christianity's codes or w/e for living a good life, being a good person, etc... and still get into heaven O.o

As if, I can practice satanism for my entire life, sacrifice children, rape, etc... But then in the after life suddenly claim my life is for god and still get into heaven?

Yes, the Reformed tend to make everything incredibly odd. In reality, speaking in tongues just means speaking intelligibly in a language you don't otherwise understand. Acts 2
That still doesn't explain it at all. I actually looked it up, or tried to, but there weren't any good sites that explained it... Just like assumed you knew about it already.

I have, of course, missed the point. As the Bible is all wrong anyway, policing its interpretations is simply academic. And atheists have a right to ban academics they don't like.

And the church as never banned anything they didn't like or agree with... Oh wait.

EDIT: I would like to point out that religious topics like this can end up with people who've gone past discussion and entered into flaming or trolling -- It would be nice if you could get back on track. Its rather easy to discuss a topic on hand without the need to resort to insults and such. I assume your mature, would it be possible for you to act it?

-Neo

[GrassDragon]

Uhm so your telling me that the most evil person, doing the most evil things imaginable won't be judged and punished by going to hell? Theres still a chance that, say, hitler is in heaven? Thats pretty fucked up.

It sounds like your saying that you don't have to follow Christianity's codes or w/e for living a good life, being a good person, etc... and still get into heaven O.o

As if, I can practice satanism for my entire life, sacrifice children, rape, etc... But then in the after life suddenly claim my life is for god and still get into heaven?
According to most who practice Christianity, this is the way it works. If you repent and ask for forgiveness, you're in the clear. That would mean that it's possible Hitler is in heaven while all the Jews he tortured are in hell. The justification is simple: we're all sinners and God doesn't see one sin as being worse than another i.e. a liar is just as bad as a murderer (in other words, there is no such thing as moral relativism).

By the way, Satanism does not encourage sacrificing children or even hurting them. One of their rules is not to hurt "little children".

[FallenLord]

GA: Huh?

Neo:

God is just and loving. Because he is just, he cannot tolerate sin. It must be punished. Therefore hell, the absence of God.

Christian teaching comes in two parts. Law
Gospel
The Law is what God demands of us. He demands it be perfectly kept. It includes, but is not limited to, all the rules, moral codes, and standards of the Old Testament. Sin is breaking this Law. Jesus "expanded" the Law in the New Testament for the purpose of reminding everyone that even though they thought they could keep the Law, they couldn't. All have sinned.

The Gospel: Because of God's love, he satisfied his justice against our sins by punishing his Son instead. Since God's justice is satisfied, he considers us perfect and worthy of his presence.

(The entire point is that it doesn't matter how terrible your sins are or what you did in this life.)

FAQ: Q: What does "Jesus died for you" mean?
A: It means God's righteous justice against your sins was direct upon Jesus at the cross. I.e., God's righteous justice will not be directed at you.
Q: Did Jesus die for everyone?
A: Yes.
Q: Did Jesus die for Hitler?
A: Yes, because Hitler is included in everyone.
Q: Could Hitler be in heaven?
A: Yes, because God's righteous justice against Hitler was directed at his Son.
Q: Hitler was one bad fuck, how is it fair for him to go to heaven?
A: It's just as fair as anyone else going to heaven.
Q: Is Hitler in heaven?
A: I don't know; probably not.

Q: What about the Law? Don't we still have to follow the Law to get into heaven?
A: No. Jesus fulfilled the Law for us. He satisfied it so we don't have to.
Q: But I still want to follow the Law.
A: Okay, Christ will judge you based on that.

Q: What's the catch? If God's righteous justice is satisfied, why doesn't everyone go to heaven?
A: Believe and be baptized, and you shall be saved.
Q: WTF does that mean?
A: Belief (faith) comes from the Holy Spirit. He gets in you and influences you to fight your sinful nature. He causes you to produce good works. (Actions that are consistent with God's Law.)
Q: What about baptism?
A: Baptism, among other things, is a delivery mechanism for the Holy Spirit.
Q: But I know of people who came to faith before being baptized.
A: The Holy Spirit also works through the hearing of the Word (i.e., the Bible).

Q: I make a lot of money by dismembering babies who inconvenience their mothers. I also happen to be a pedophile and enjoy torturing Christians to death in third world countries. Since I like my life, can't I just wait until I'm about 80 before becoming a Christian?
A: Yes.
Q: There has to be a catch.
A: No catch. Just make sure you don't die first.

Q: What about Christians believe that you have to live your life a certain way to get to heaven?
A: Trick question. By definition, they're not Christians.
If you have a specific question about "tongues," ask.

I edited all the flames out of my posts. Happy?

[frazz]

After you blatantly start name calling and insulting people's posts, motives, and content, you have a cutesy little blurb about ad hominem. Then you add a few more insults at the end. Well, at least we'll know when someone's stolen your acct--that kind of behavior is pretty distinctive.
Your post was pretty trolly.(trollish? trollistic?)
oh how i missed the moral elitists of the intellectual roundtable </sarcasm>
Ofcourse you would, seeing as you were one
<SArcasm>

Anywho....
Hitler would have to be a Christian to go to heaven. Seeing as he wasn't, he isn't. Most of the Jews are probably in hell(tragic, I know) because they weren't Christians either.
As if, I can practice satanism for my entire life, sacrifice children, rape, etc... But then in the after life suddenly claim my life is for god and still get into heaven?

You can't claim belief after you die. In the case of a murderer, they would have to be sincerely sorry for their sins, and really wish to live a righteous life for Jesus.

[Neo]

Would anyone be upset if this thread got closed? It seems as if we've gone way past actually discussing it and are now just starting to piss one another off.

I was asking specifically what speaking in tongues mean -- ie: How does it work, whats it got to do with God/Christianity, how/where/when does one do it, etc...?

I don't know anything about it basically except that speaking in tongues is done during prayer?

At any rate. This thread has really gone way off topic, and while I don't like to, I feel that if we leave it open much longer it will devolve furthur into crap.

I think we need a new IR thread, something that doesn't have anything to do with religion.

Christianity is one messed up religion... No offense. If someone like hitler could repent and be rewarded in the afterlife... Thats just wrong.

-Neo

[Ender]

Neo, I second the motion and the reasoning.
Closed.