The Scourge vs. Modern Day Earth [Archive]

Yoda

01-14-2006, 9:23 AM

Well I dont know no who would actually win but im sure we would have a good chance against them(likewise for them).

First of all The Scourge would not be able to infect us as easily as we protect our food better and we have better ways to contect each other. The Scourge would have swords. We would have guns. We would destroy them in ground battles as they would just send wave after wave at use but each would be destroyed. Their airforce(which consists of gargolyes and Frost Wyrms etc.) would be a match for ours but it would be a close call. Their navy...well they dont really have navy do they?(At least Ive never heard of The Scourge having a Navy). Now magic, the Scourge reeks of it. They would be able to raise our troops that have died and go to our cemetarys to raise more troops. Their Death Knights and Lichs would perform huge spells killing many. We, of course dont have any magic but we do have Nukes.

They could raise as much dead as they wanted but inevitably we would end up nuking em. I think it would be a close call, but we would probobly win. Now Burning Legion on the other hand...

This thread will inevitably be moved to Warcraft or closed, but I'll say what I think anyway. This doesn't really belong in IR.

Lets say just the Scourge. I don't think they would last very long. Ground units, we would defeat them easily. Bullets>Arrows. Oh and we could just nuke them using our atomic weapons of mass destruction. Assuming they don't have any Dusts of Appearance, we could send in an Invisible nuclear submarine to their hidden base at the North Pole, Bombard them with hydrogen bombs. This would make their undead nuking seem really dull. The end.

Tranxiety

01-14-2006, 9:43 AM

Oh Yoda, I meant for this to be the Earth we actually live in, not some warcraft representation of such.

I thought about the Burning Legion, but I figured Divine armor would be impossible to beat.

In terms of traveling over waterways, lets assume theres an invisible portal(the kind that simmers when you go through it but otherwise you can't see it) in the center for every landmass visible from space accessible from Northred.(Although I do think they must have some water transport in order to leave Northrend).

Anyways,
Here are some things to keep in mind though.
Psychological factors:
The sight of rotting corpses, fallen friends brought back to life, and maybe even grandma brought back from the grave would be seriously demoralizing. Legions of the dead that seem resistant to gun wounds(whereas a normal human would be dehabilitated) would be able to approach the enemy far less fearful than any man could. Simply fighting an unthinking, unfeeling, nonhuman enemy alone should be enough to cause large numbers of men to desert. The smell of rotting corpses would be unbearable should they get close enough.

Weaponry:
I'm not sure about this, but I'm pretty sure they could pick up guns and use them(although acquiring ammo would be a different story). The ability to combat using swords and the like in battle with some skill leads one to believe they retain some of their training memories from their previous life. Like I mentioned earlier, hitting skeletons would be hard. They have neither the soft flesh nor physical wholeness humans do. Its possible for bullets to simply pass through them.
Banshees can possess the enemy. This is significant because if your friend is alive, even if he's possessed, one would be less likely to kill them. Also included in their arsenal the amount of disease that would spread from their rotting corpses.
Furthermore, it is likely there would be acolytes(although fewer) who support the Undead and wish for eternal life who would be willing to spread the plague through our food supply(carrying it into supermarkets and whatnot). This will further cause hysteria about the food supply and possibly cause widespread stavation.

Frost Wyrms have the ability to freeze the capabilities of buildings. This could seriously disrupt communications satellites and other important locations.

Nuclear Weapons, while feasible, would do far less to several Undead compared to humans. The firing of a nuke in a crowded city or anywhere with a civilian population would be unthinkiable, and even firing it in a popular yet currently unpopulated area(National Park or a city thats been evacuated would also been restrained due to future damage.
Tanks would be at a ballistic advantage but a serious numerical disadvantage. We're talking about thousands of almost instantly replenishable troops coming at them.
A excessively long term fight with them would be impossible because eventually they'll be able to produce more troops than humanity could produce bullets.

While tactical weapons are available with high precision, firing them into a foreign country and firing them into ones own are very different. The remote chance of error seen in Iraq would cause fear to be multiplied 1000 fold if such an event happened in New York city.

I'm not well versed much in way of very modern of specifics of technology but those are my thoughts on the subject.

Alliances:
The world today's ability to mobilize a total alliance is questionable. While countries seem to be willing to do it, the time necessary to deploy them may be longer than required, especially bypassing border security allowing the entry of foreign troops.

Arthas and the Dreadlords are quite crafty. They could use scare tactics to take advantage of fears in the enemy leaders, giving away key secrets in return for their safety and possible power in the new world order if they succeed. As mentioned earlier, the promises of eternal life is still tempting even in today's world.

Policy
Lastly, I don't believe it's any country's policy to bomb first and ask questions later(as much as it seems that way lately). I believe they won't react right away and when they do, they will first try to assess the intelligence of the enemy and whether or not they're a threat.
Nor do I believe that Arthas the Lich King would send everything at once. Its possible for him to use said portals to gather information about our world as well.

EvilEggCracker

01-14-2006, 10:09 AM

Well then if thats the case then Im afraid we would be forced to nuke everything. Think about it. The Governments would have little options. Say New York was about to be attacked by the Scourge.Theres:

Option A)Let the Scourge get to the populace and turn them into the Undead
Option B)Send forces to protect the civilians, though the troops would lose, it would give the government time to access the situation
Option C)Nuke the Undead. Sure many civilians will die, its better them to die than become Undead.

Though the Government would think long and hard, option C would eventually happen if the Scourge was completly annihilating the Human Race.

An Alliance between countries would be swift in my opinion. If the dead start attacking a country, Im sure al the others will know and help them rather than sit around smoking cigars and saying "Tough luck". Though Im sure Arthas would be able to shake the alliances between countries like, say, Iraq and Iran(just an example), I very much doubt that England and America would abandon each other in face of such a threat.

When push comes to shove mankind is quite reliable. Alliances would not be broken easily at all in such a threat. I think that such a war would eventually lead to the death of not only mankind but to the planet itself. but you have to remember, the Undead arent as numerous as they once were. Many Undead are now part of the Forsaken so the Undead might not have as much troops.

Oh and as for The Burning Legion, if Medieval Humans,orcs and Night Elves could defeat em, we could(especially being weaker).

Cyberspirit

01-14-2006, 10:28 AM

Tranxiety, you are making a few assumptions:

1. Everyone on Earth fears the undead.

2. Noone on Earth knows how to use magic.

3. Scourge necromancy works on Earth.

4. That it takes the military strength of the whole Earth to take on the scourge.

For all we know, a taoist shaman, a dharmic sage or a new-age druid can destroy the whole scourge by just the power of his/her mind.

And then there are the ancient demons who do not like to share their world with the undead. ( Some old legends are still very much alive in the modern world ... )

They could raise as much dead as they wanted but inevitably we would end up nuking em. I think it would be a close call, but we would probobly win. Now Burning Legion on the other hand...

That's right. Compared to the demons or elementals, the undead suck big time !!!

Read " The Forgotten Ones " on the www.shatteredenigma.com (http://www.shatteredenigma.com), a Blizzard games fanfiction site.

The Old Gods gave the Scourge a real good thrashing.

This is just like one of those "imperial Rome vs imperial China " debates.

The Chinese during the Han dynasty were obviously more powerful than the Romans, but we have to assume that they were mostly "evenly-matched" just for the sake of debate, ( and European pride ).
OK forget I said that.

Tranxiety

01-14-2006, 10:55 AM

Option A)Let the Scourge get to the populace and turn them into the Undead
Option B)Send forces to protect the civilians, though the troops would lose, it would give the government time to access the situation
Option C)Nuke the Undead. Sure many civilians will die, its better them to die than become Undead.
While it would be the best option, at the same time, public support would be swayed against them. With the spread of information via technology, its not possible to simply nuke a populated city and noone find out about it. People don't vote to have their own people nuked. Morally many if not most people can't support their own government killing their own people over an enemy killing them. Its a problem of guilt. They can't place blame on the enemy for the deaths of relatives and whatnot. Not to mention other countries have people living in places such as New York, they could turn against us in those cases.

Not to mention a failure to kill all of them would create a breeding ground for more Undead.
Tranxiety, you are making a few assumptions:
1. Everyone on Earth fears the undead.
2. Noone on Earth knows how to use magic.
3. Scourge necromancy works on Earth.
4. That it takes the military strength of the whole Earth to take on the scourge.
For all we know, a taoist shaman, a dharmic sage or a new-age druid can destroy the whole scourge by just the power of his/her mind.

1. I bet a good number of people would be. People know the difference between a movie and real life. People are fine as long as its on the big screen, but if a real life undead came at you, you really woulnd't know how to react. Undead spreading among the populace would most likely tried to be kept under wraps by the government. Avoiding mass panic or even dissent is pretty important. This would enhance problems. And when mass panic does arise, which I believe it will(think realistically about how most people would react if REAL zombies were around attacking people(this isn't gang violence this is people with skin falling off that are eating the flesh of your dead neighbors) and people most likely aren't going to be able to organize a mass revolt against an enemy they aren't positive how to kill), it would cause even more chaos making it harder to organize any sort of rescue or attack.

I'm not saying everyone has to be scared, but even a trained soldier would have some hesitation about shooting friends and an enemy they know absolutely nothing about.

2. Noone has so far. As much powers as people have claimed, noone has done anything verifiable whereas the Undead have. Also, even in a world where the enemy does have magic, they cannot simply destroy an army.
3. Yes, thats the basic assumption for this. Realistically speaking, their powers didn't diminish in Draenor/Outworld or Azeroth, theres no reason for it to diminish here.
#2 and 3 are pretty much implied as true simply for the same assumption that the Undead exist and can come to earth.
4. The size of the military strength depends on their ability to handle the threat quickly before casualties arise. It is akin to a game of reversi, losing pieces turn against you. If the enemy is intelligent and skilled enough to fire arrows, they should be able to fire a gun.

Also, the Undead have their own seige weapons, not on par with our current military, but depending on where they strike can cause problems. People tend to concern about their own safety in life or death situations with an unknown threat. Firing a bucket of disease into a populated area wouldn't necessarily kill them right away. Its very possible, that like other diseases, people will try to escape to other countries causing plague to spread further

Also keep in mind that we're not assuming humans have any knowledge of said Undead beforehand. Everything learned must be figured out in the midst of fighting. Superstitions are more bound to arise such as shooting out brains and whatnot from preconceptions about zombies causing further problems. It isn't exactly intuitive to try to kill something that is technically already dead.

EvilEggCracker

01-14-2006, 1:40 PM

I still think wed win though, Mankind is a very resourceful specis. I bet wed be able to capture an undead and find out what makes it tick. Perhaps make a toxin that can counter the plague that the Undead suffer from. Though, its all a matter if we react quickly enough.

Cyberspirit

01-14-2006, 11:08 PM

Undead spreading among the populace would most likely tried to be kept under wraps by the government. Avoiding mass panic or even dissent is pretty important. This would enhance problems. And when mass panic does arise, which I believe it will(think realistically about how most people would react if REAL zombies were around attacking people(this isn't gang violence this is people with skin falling off that are eating the flesh of your dead neighbors) and people most likely aren't going to be able to organize a mass revolt against an enemy they aren't positive how to kill), it would cause even more chaos making it harder to organize any sort of rescue or attack.

Makes a good movie storyline.
" The dead have risen ! Noone is safe ! Who shall stop them ??? "

Like the zombies would not be eaten up by carrion beetles and blowfly larvae before they even "organize" themselves into an army...

Oh yes, I forgot, Arthas/Nerzhul would do the organising.
RTS micromanagement huh ...

As much powers as people have claimed, noone has done anything verifiable whereas the Undead have. Also, even in a world where the enemy does have magic, they cannot simply destroy an army.

According to ... you.

Well, if you can dismiss iddhi, shamanism and mana as not "verifiable".
Then why should I believe that undead necromancy works on Earth ?

their powers didn't diminish in Draenor/Outworld or Azeroth, theres no reason for it to diminish here.

The undead been to Outworld before ? Hmmm...

If the enemy is intelligent and skilled enough to fire arrows, they should be able to fire a gun.

So ? Every trained human soldier on Earth knows how to fire a gun, throw grenades, set up mines, guide missiles, plant red herrings ......

I must say, Tranxiety,
You have a funny definition of "cunning" and "scary".

Please don't get offended.
I'm just debating. :D

Neo

01-14-2006, 11:31 PM

Some of you seem to be seriously missing the point of this thread, this is kind of a throwback to those huge threads we used to have at BF about the Zerg vs Present day earth (I remember siegetank was a huge poster in such threads, along with cronoss).

The point here, people, is to seriously discuss the ramifications of the scourge attacking us, and would it be possible for us to defeat them?

Whiz touched on a few things already (demoralizing and such) and the rest of you are just like "shoot em, nuke em, etc..."

First off; Nuking the undead (unless it was all of them at the same time) would do very little in the long run. The Scourge's strength lies in its ability to mass a large amount of troops. Yes you may slow them down, but nuking is not a viable strategy (also consider that if you do nuke an undead area, then normal humans couldn't enter it because of radiation concerns -- while the undead are dead anyways).

To combat the scourge, I believe we would need to rethink are weaponry (ie: instead of bullets, we would need explosives, blow them apart), perhaps even resort to flamethrowers/napalm/etc... If you burn them down, then they aren't going to be coming back.

Also I think that once we'd realize that they are using our own dead against us, that it would become standard to burn our dead (can't raise ashes).

Plus, the way I understand it, the undead troops (baring "heros/commanders/arthas") aren't very smart, we would likely be able to rely on stealth infiltration and the like to combat them... Also, considering the way that undead move, they would have to go slowly -- they don't have an airforce, or even ground vehicles that can move a massive amount of people/troops.

I dunno, meh. Its an interesting topic, but also hard to discuss. Whereas something like us vs the zerg is doable (you shoot them, they die) facing the undead is a lot different.

If you cant keep this serious and intelligent, dont post.

-Neo

Cyberspirit

01-14-2006, 11:48 PM

The fact that NeoX can already name effective weapons we can use against the undead, already shows the undead would be really dead the moment they invade our world.

And all the weapons mentioned are already being used now.
( Even burning the dead persists as a custom in some parts of the world )

Yeah, you can say I am deliberately trying to kill this thread,
but seriously people, what's so scary/formiddable about the undead ?

Sorry for being rude. But I am trying to prove an obvious point.

Ramifications:

I agree with NeoX.
Like any war, people will die, new weapons/tactics would be deviced, etc etc...

Maybe the humans would learn necromancy ?

More later...

Tranxiety

01-15-2006, 4:50 AM

The point here, people, is to seriously discuss the ramifications of the scourge attacking us, and would it be possible for us to defeat them?

Whiz touched on a few things already (demoralizing and such) and the rest of you are just like "shoot em, nuke em, etc..."

First off; Nuking the undead (unless it was all of them at the same time) would do very little in the long run. The Scourge's strength lies in its ability to mass a large amount of troops. Yes you may slow them down, but nuking is not a viable strategy (also consider that if you do nuke an undead area, then normal humans couldn't enter it because of radiation concerns -- while the undead are dead anyways).

To combat the scourge, I believe we would need to rethink are weaponry (ie: instead of bullets, we would need explosives, blow them apart), perhaps even resort to flamethrowers/napalm/etc... If you burn them down, then they aren't going to be coming back.

Also I think that once we'd realize that they are using our own dead against us, that it would become standard to burn our dead (can't raise ashes).

Plus, the way I understand it, the undead troops (baring "heros/commanders/arthas") aren't very smart, we would likely be able to rely on stealth infiltration and the like to combat them... Also, considering the way that undead move, they would have to go slowly -- they don't have an airforce, or even ground vehicles that can move a massive amount of people/troops.

I dunno, meh. Its an interesting topic, but also hard to discuss. Whereas something like us vs the zerg is doable (you shoot them, they die) facing the undead is a lot different.
While slow to move, I believe Arthas already has the good part of a continent of followers ready to attack by the time he reached the Lich King.

For our food supply, most of our food nowadays are centrally purchased. If 1 out of every 5,000 men were swayed by promises of the undead or fear of such(perhaps devil worshippers or similar), they could infect a supermarket providing food for hundreds or thousands. Even if this does not occur, the potential for such should cause food to be distributed far more securely and human greed may result in chaos.

In terms of weaponry, while such flame tools are available, we would have to mass produce or import them and arm our military with such. This would require mobilizing the masses to aide in production or making trade agreements for such. Since I am talking about a worldwide threat, some countries may horde such weapons for protection, resulting in a large scale problem.
Also, flame throwers and more close quarter weapons would work on smaller troops such as ghouls but opponents such as an Abomination would be able to tank such weapons and defeat them. Also against a fiery mass of rock such as the Infernals, if not defeated quickly would scare or burn troops.
The Scourge has more than mere zombies to fight for them. Their undead spiders(the name escapes me) could web down low flying planes.

Third world countries would be large breeding grounds for the undead, as well as countries which do not believe in burning their dead. People have known about cremation for some time and choose against it, so there would be countries that perhaps for religious reasons would refuse. Are we to bomb/invade those countries? Forcing everyone to burn their dead would be a long term advantage but could it be implemented early?

For explosives, in use in a city, to take care of the numbers, we would most likely try to evacuate the civilian population leaving many without a home or place to go. Also, the explosive force necessary to kill so many, would most likely result in serious collateral damage. In a crowded city such as L.A. or NYC, having a large part of those cities evacuated and destroyed would cause nearly irrepairable damage to our economy for various reasons. Even if we destroyed the threat, would our country collapse internally from the ruin?

The Undead troops are not as smart for the most part(although spellcasters would most likely be), they have unrivaled loyalty and threshhold for pain(virtually none is felt)

While we can rely on stealth, Arthas himself was raised as a prince and is likely a very cunning opponent with knowledge of military tactics as well as diplomacy, combined with NerZhul/Lich King, a former Orc, he'd have knowledge of war that surpasses our common knowledge. If the dead retain any memories he can quickly gain an intelligence advantage and adapt.
He has Shades which can infiltrate without being seen into locations thought impossible and most likely only killed unintentionally. His troop movements cannot be detected by infrared since they are dead.

While the Undead move slow comparably, they also lack fatigue and can move across hundreds of miles without slowing down and not sleep or eat during the days or nights. Arthas is on horseback so he can probably cross notable distances in days. With a portal on each landmass, troops it is not necessary to cross oceans and such. Islands such as Great Britain would have their own problems to worry about.

With the Zerg, you could determine how you could damage them by comparing futuristic Terran weaponry with our own. Such as if a Gauss Rifle firing hypersonic spikes can't instantly kill a hydralisk what weaponry do we have? Similarly, we can compare the effects of axes, swords, mortars, bombs, and even weather on the Undead. We also know how certain types of weapons work on them(even moreso than anything in Starcraft.), such as Piercing and the like. There were quite a few units with explosives that could be compared. Even Zergling, Hydralisk, and Marines were included in Warcraft and their damage could be compared. A modern rifle should do damage between that of a rifleman(20 I believe?) and that of a gauss rifle(80) of course, with more realistic considerations added. Swords and guns were capable of hurting banshees so even noncorporeal enemies wouldn't create an unstoppable force.

Regular civilians are most likely weaker and more disease prone than their more medieval counterparts, on the other hand, we have more tools and medicine.

Neo

01-15-2006, 6:40 AM

I am to sick to do a big reply, but your forgetting that there is a lot of food that is sealed, while you could infect other sources of food, eventually it would come out that those types of food aren't safe anymore.

THere is no way that fiends would be able to glob webs of goo at low flying airplanes. Thats just a leap I can't make right there.

Infernals could be easily dealt with (like I said earlier) instead of us relying on bullets we would have to switch to something like explosive weapons (ie: i dunno, bazookas).

Also I think tanks could probably serve a big roll in tearing through most things undead (roll over ghouls, fiends, etc... blow apart abominations... I dunno. On top of all that, it wouldn't be to hard for us to make enviromental-armored suits that could resist the undead (especially if they don't have anything as powerful as an AK... I dunno).

Said I was sick... rambling here.

For the last time, everyone else, take it seriously or dont post here. The next person to post something like "this should be closed, this is pointless, move this, etc..." will get banned. This is IR, and this is a serious topic, treat it as such. These types of topics used to be a lot of fun when people actually got into them!

-Neo

GenocideAlive

01-15-2006, 2:38 PM

Earth 100 yrs ago, UD had a shot. Earth today, not a chance.

Tanks, satellites, and warplanes are just a few things that the Scourge has no solid counter for. Gargs couldn't catch a fucking F-16 for love nor money, and an automated flak gun would cut them apart anyway. If they don't like arrows fired at a rate of .8 per second, I seriously doubt they'd like a .22mm cannon firing at a rate of 2000-6000 rounds per minute. Death Coil that shit.

They could have no base of operations / primary army, because it would immediately be nuked to hell and back without us having to risk a single life.

Things to kill them with = blasts, blunt objects, fire, acid. Bullets would be rather ineffective.

We have multiple ways of combating plagues, so it wouldn't spread as easily as it did in Azeroth.

There's just no basis of comparison...only constant Necromancy would be able to overwhelm our guns, but even then we'd just switch to bombs. Make a thousand skellies if you want, 10 bombs will wipe all of them out along with the necromancers.

william_clinch

01-15-2006, 5:54 PM

I think the Scourges conquest of modern day earth will be a lot quicker than there conquests of Warcraftland.

They wouldn't start attacking humans straight away, they would first off gather followers (accolites) which it's probably easy getting folowers from people that are either already "bad" (goths/satanists/devil-worshipers etc.) from people that dont know any better (retards) or from people who think that any voice they hear in there head is god
at the same time, they would probably try to infiltrate or take over governments, or other advantageous companies (with banshi posesions, shade spys, and possibly some of the members of the organisation being accolites)

Once they've done this. they can effectivly cripple any majour resistance and easyly spread the plauge (and if they controll the army, then they can easyly infect them to have a load of trained troops)

at best, some survivours will try to form a resistance, but they will easyly fall.

If the scourge can take over enough powerfull countries fast enough, then the other smaller countries dont stand a chance

Scourge 1 | Earth 0

unless the remaining countries see that they are doomed, and just fire all the remaining missiles/nukes (If they still can)

Neo

01-15-2006, 9:54 PM

I am sorry, but the undead are not that cunning.

Yes perhaps Arthas and his commanders might be, but the average undead member is not going to be able to pull that off.

Besides, the undead doesnt need to do that. If they were able to get into third world countries (ie: starting in africa) then they would be hard to stop at that point -- especially given that we would need the cooperation of most everyone on the planet.

Then again, the US probably has enough nukes to blow the planet up twice. O_o

-Neo

King_Templar

01-15-2006, 10:55 PM

Hrm...interesting idea.

Doom anyone? Anyway, Fire Department vs. Infernal could be interesting. I'd think a flaming ball of rock would kinda be killed by dousing it, but who knows?

Disease could actually be a bigger problem than some people seem to think. If a new disease was introduced, it'd take time to find a cure, if one could be found at all, and by that time it'd spread. We don't have the magical healing of the Warcraft races.

I agree that bullets wouldn't be as useful. Tanks would, as ghouls they could just run over, more likely than not. In the end, victory would most likely come through the air. Scourge air units: Gargoyles and Frost Wyrms, as my memory serves. Gargoyles would actually be the bigger problem. Big wads of cold air wouldn't really be that big of an issue to modern day aircraft. Strafing runs and whatnot could cut down huge numbers.

Furthermore, we (humans) are smart enough to figure out who/what is raising their armies. I don't think those beings would be allowed to live long.

I'm thinking there are enough people who've played Warcraft III and The Frozen Throne that we wouldn't be knowledgeless, once it's caught the general attention of gamers. Let's just hope they (we?) don't go trying to make pets. >.<

While the Undead would have a massive advantage of numbers, the modern world would most likely be able to destroy them. As I mentioned, ground forces wouldn't be as useful, but aircraft would be. So would the navy, as bombardment from the sea would be something the Undead would be hard pressed to effectively counter.

The aftermath would probably be very bad. Diseases (most of them probably new) would run rampant, at least until we managed to find cures/vaccines. The end result of course being economic and population problems. Also, what to do with all of the Undead. They'd probably be burned, as that would be the most effective way to take care of problems with disease coming from them.

Cyberspirit

01-16-2006, 5:03 AM

I'm thinking there are enough people who've played Warcraft III and The Frozen Throne that we wouldn't be knowledgeless, once it's caught the general attention of gamers. Let's just hope they (we?) don't go trying to make pets. >.<

And don't forget the real-life witchdoctors, shamans and seers etc. who live on Earth now !!!

They would provide effective counters to the Scourge's necromancy !!

For the fun of it, I can list some documented human "spells":

1. Tulpa : some Hindu/Buddhist seers claim to be able to cause objects to manifest according to their imaginations.

2. Zombification : Some African witchdoctors can use a kind of poison to turn corpses into mindless servants. I don't know if it works on the undead.

3. Remote-view : shamans can reportedly detach their spirits from their bodies and "journey" to remote locations.

4. Iron-palm : A martial art allowing one to crumble stone/metal and raise/lower temperatures at will. I don't know how they do it but they did it.
Some Chinese doctors say they can use this skill to treat illnesses as well.

5. Death-touch : paralyzes a victim. victim is killed if the blow is too vicious.
again, I don't know how the martial artists do it but they did it.

6. Mana : There are Pacific legends of mysterious people with telekinetic powers.

7. Maya : illusions.

8.etc, etc... ( feel free to add to the list )

I said "for the fun of it". Pardon me if I got some of my facts wrong.

Now on to the effects of an invasion by the Scourge ...

A radical change in the art of war.

Soldiers now have to make sure that dangerous enemies stay dead forever.

And they cannot assume that the enemy has the same amount of stamina as they do.

Fighter planes designed to handle melee combat.

Redifines what " a powerful warrior " means.

More later...

GenocideAlive

01-16-2006, 10:56 AM

They wouldn't start attacking humans straight away, they would first off gather followers (accolites) which it's probably easy getting folowers from people that are either already "bad" (goths/satanists/devil-worshipers etc.) from people that dont know any better (retards) or from people who think that any voice they hear in there head is godat the same time, they would probably try to infiltrate or take over governments, or other advantageous companies (with banshi posesions, shade spys, and possibly some of the members of the organisation being accolites)

Once they've done this. they can effectivly cripple any majour resistance and easyly spread the plauge (and if they controll the army, then they can easyly infect them to have a load of trained troops)

at best, some survivours will try to form a resistance, but they will easyly fall.

If the scourge can take over enough powerfull countries fast enough, then the other smaller countries dont stand a chance

Scourge 1 | Earth 0

unless the remaining countries see that they are doomed, and just fire all the remaining missiles/nukes (If they still can)
This is a horrible post. Not only do I see at least 6-7 spelling errors, you've also misspelled several homophones. Spellcheck isn't that hard to figure out, and you may want to start writing in Microsoft Word now so that you can learn grammar while you're at it.

As far as to the "content" of your post, I doubt that the Scourge could start "recruiting" without attracting the attention of everybody on the planet. Once everybody on the planet learned that the Undead were walking the Earth, I'm fairly certain that their mobilization would be much more effective than if the UD just surprise-attacked.

Obviously either China or the U.S. would have to be its first target, as they have the largest armies in the world. But ultimately it comes down to the circumstances behind their arrival/attack.

william_clinch

01-16-2006, 6:36 PM

The scourge are not all mindless sombies though, there are units which are human (accolites) which are still able to think, and there are units which have retained much of there human mind, and can move undetected (banshees and shades)
I'm sure they would be able to recrute more accolites to there cause, as there are numerous cults and satanists out there, and so far there has been very little done against them.

And once there were enough Accolites around the world, and in positions of power, they can simultaneously contaminate the population (includeing armys), and by the time people realise what's going on, it'll be too late

as for useing earth "magic" against them, the undead necromancers and other magic units would outnumber them, even without concidering that most earth "magic" is just trickery

frazz

01-16-2006, 7:51 PM

The way I see it, nukes would do more harm to us then them. If they were smart, they could easily beat us. First, seeing a town ravaged by undead and the zombies killing even more, would be enough to make at least 1/4 of the world want to commit suicide. Sure, bullets could mow down enemys from afar in mass numbers. But we have no power in close combat. The scourge could launch catapults and raise the dead. Major demoralization. Plus our body armour would be as useless as theirs. No sword or arrow protection. Remember that most of the third world nations would be slaughtered due to lack of food or water control, or telecommunication. Airforce units are no good without airports.
As we are, warring with eachother and such, we could not survive. However, if we had a few years warning maybe, but noone would actually believe it. But after a few years of combat we could definitely develop some anti-undead measures(burning bodies, anti-undead weapons and armour). We could use some medeival armour and high tech weapons, but an undead attack would take the world by such surprise, and the undead would not make their presence known till they have infested many humans and sown the seeds of the scourge.

Cyberspirit

01-17-2006, 3:21 AM

My friends, this is not exactly " The Human Alliance vs the Undead Scourge",

This is a mostly globalised technical civilisation vs a cult of walking corpses and rickety skeletons that randomly pop out of the ground.

1. The undead would be attacked by carrion beetles, army ants, blowflies etc.

2. It takes only a small airforce detachment to blow up a chain of undead bases.

3. We've had ebola, influenza, AIDS ...
So what's so scary and unbelievable about the plague of undeath ???

4. What can undead weapons do to concrete/reinforced metal/specially treated plastic ???

5. How does undead " cunning " help them get past the systematic defenses of a modern army ???

More later ...

GenocideAlive

01-17-2006, 11:41 AM

...I don't even want to comment on this thread anymore, it's getting borderlined retarded. "The Scourge could launch catapults and raise their dead. Major demoralization."? What the fuck is that? Hi Mr. Catapult, this is Mr. Artillery Gun. You're going to meet his depeleted uranium rounds from several miles away. Good luck with that Raising Dead thing.

singo

01-17-2006, 11:51 AM

You cannot raise dead that have been obliterated. A 30mm cannon shell will make a hell of a mess of any meaty thing.

I think most of the arguments have already been stated, but I thought to pitch in on the side of sanity (for a change). If a medievil level society can hold off the scourge, a modern one surely could.

william_clinch

01-17-2006, 12:07 PM

This is a mostly globalised technical civilisation vs a cult of walking corpses and rickety skeletons that randomly pop out of the ground.
1. The undead would be attacked by carrion beetles, army ants, blowflies etc.
2. It takes only a small airforce detachment to blow up a chain of undead bases.
3. We've had ebola, influenza, AIDS ...
So what's so scary and unbelievable about the plague of undeath ???
4. What can undead weapons do to concrete/reinforced metal/specially treated plastic ???
5. How does undead " cunning " help them get past the systematic defenses of a modern army ???

1-people and animals are attacked by insects as well, and only damage is done when people get poisned/infected by them. and if insects dont attack zombies in warcraft, why any different on earth?
2-asumeing they are still capable of doing this
3-mabey because people are activley spreading it, and it turns people in to zombies
4-not much I assume, so it's a good thing for the scourge that they're fighting people, and not robots
5-if people can think these things up, then people can also think of ways round them, or take the defences down from the inside

You all seem to be thinking it's just zombies Vs humans, but the scourge also has various magical units and stealth units, which would dissable army defences before launching a physical assault.

Because we have better technology than in warcraft doesn't nesseceraly mean we have a better chance then they did, because the scourge also have access to the technology, which could actually make things worse for us

GenocideAlive

01-17-2006, 12:55 PM

Because we have better technology than in warcraft doesn't nesseceraly mean we have a better chance then they did, because the scourge also have access to the technology, which could actually make things worse for us
90% of the Scourge don't have the mental capacity or presence of mind to operate complex machinery or technology. A ghoul doesn't use an axe because it can't hold one, but rather because axe use requires skill and practice; obviously, it'd rather just attack with its natural weapons.

A fiend CAN'T operate machinery, and an abomination has downright mechanical problems. A necromancer probably could, but what kind of machine would a necromancer operate? It'd be pretty damned difficult for him to Raise Dead if he was sitting in a Jeep. Most of these creatures would be put off by technology and other scaled weaponry...they revel in death and blood-letting combat. They wouldn't appreciate or even participate in the intricate, mechanical processes needed for operating technological machinery.

frazz

01-17-2006, 1:05 PM

90% of the Scourge don't have the mental capacity or presence of mind to operate complex machinery or technology. A ghoul doesn't use an axe because it can't hold one, but rather because axe use requires skill and practice; obviously, it'd rather just attack with its natural weapons.

A fiend CAN'T operate machinery, and an abomination has downright mechanical problems. A necromancer probably could, but what kind of machine would a necromancer operate? It'd be pretty damned difficult for him to Raise Dead if he was sitting in a Jeep. Most of these creatures would be put off by technology and other scaled weaponry...they revel in death and blood-letting combat. They wouldn't appreciate or even participate in the intricate, mechanical processes needed for operating technological machinery.
Well it's a good thing they have Arthas to tell them what to do.
And I thought you weren't going to comment anymore.

GenocideAlive

01-17-2006, 3:14 PM

Well it's a good thing they have Arthas to tell them what to do.
I'm fairly certain that the Scourge obeys mono/disyllabic imperative type-commands. I'm also fairly certain that these commands are going to be relatively simple: ATTACK FRAZZ for example. Not AGGRESSIVELY APPROACH FRAZZ, COAX AN ATTACK OUT OF HIM, DODGE IT AND COUNTERATTACK. Analogy-wise, I don't think that Arthas could paint a picture by proxy using a ghoul.

Similarly, I seriously doubt Arthas will stand by a ghoul in an artillery gun and start instructing it on how to load it, use it, and fire it; especially since the ghoul has no memory. Doesn't really seem like a good use of his time, does it.

william_clinch

01-17-2006, 4:34 PM

again, you seem to be focusing only on the zombie type units
The scourge could use technology to help them gain followers/accolites (fast transport, and internet)
and it would also help them spread the plauge when it's time to strike
and the zombies wont have technological weapons, the accolites and necromancers will still use it to there advantage (and accolite driveing a necromancer from graveyard to graveyard would be a lot quicker than the necromancer just walking)
and the accolites will also be able to opperate any milatary bases they have taken over
and even when earth knows of the scourge, accolites, shades, and banshies will still be able to infiltrate any human resistance

EvilEggCracker

01-17-2006, 4:41 PM

Im sure wed be able to detect when Shades are around. They may be invisible but they still have a mass. Perhaps lasers on doorways to important places or night vision goggles on infantry (though I dont know if Shades emit heat...).

There isnt actually a large enough amount of accolites to actually make much of a difference. Besides, not everyone knows how to drive. Especially someone who has come from a place where there is no (generally) cars. Contrary to your belief, theres not too many Satanic Cults etc. who are actually serious enough to join forces with the walking undead...

Sirion

01-17-2006, 9:16 PM

The undead would definately be a powerful enemy. Some have said that if A medieval civilization could hold back such a problem then a modern one could. I however am not so sure.

Weapons would be our first major problem. As it has been said bullets would be practically useless in this situation, and most of our other major defenses might be rendered useless. I would think the major weapons that would be useful would be modified flak cannons, tanks, explosives, acids, and flamethrowers. Biological weapons would be useless, along with blades and guns, and fission or fusion bombs would hurt us more than them most likely. So the question is can we amass the weapons we need fast enough?

And the front of the battle isn't the only problem. As others have pointed out the food supply could be poisoned, perhaps by accolytes or shades. With so many people going to a central source for food these days it would be relatively easy. Of Course we would wisen up soon, but by that time entire major cities could be hit. Also, an event such as this could cause a mass panic as people find out. This would make things even more difficult for us.

The bodies of former friends would assuredly demoralize the armies and people. Fear is one of the most powerful emotions in a human, and may cause entire armies to desert. Assuming that the undead zombies can use bow and arrow I'm sure they can operate a gun, which would give them even more firepower as guns are left behind.

There are also political problems. What's to say that all contries would immediately ally with everyone? I'm pretty sure the North Koreans would resent it. And if we can't pass through the country's terratory we may lose many opportunities. And who's to say that they will all wholeheartedly give their resources to the threat immediately? I'm sure that a few countries would hold back some for themselves. And there are other third world countries that would be extremely vunerable to attack, as the have little power and a bad communications network. A large army could be amassed in, say, Africa.

Really, in the end it depends on if we can put our differences aside and work towards a common goal, putting all of our resources to develop new technologies and weapons.

psycho42b

01-17-2006, 10:35 PM

So the question is can we amass the weapons we need fast enough? Yes, we could if we really wanted to.The U.S. and China have (correct me if I'm wrong) the two largest manufacturing capabilities in the world. If we put a good portion our resources into wartime production (like we did in WWII) It should be no problem. and even when earth knows of the scourge, accolites, shades, and banshies will still be able to infiltrate any human resistance Accolytes:not so sure, they'd probably reek of death, and be recognized. Shades: Umm, yeah, a group of invisible guys capable of doing nothing. They're going to do what again? Banshees: other that possessing someone, they aren't going to be able to do much, and sicne they aren't cloaked, just kind of clear looking, just shoot them, since it appears any damage hurts them until theyre dead. I'm fairly certain that the Scourge obeys mono/disyllabic imperative type-commands. I'm also fairly certain that these commands are going to be relatively simple: ATTACK FRAZZ for example. Not AGGRESSIVELY APPROACH FRAZZ, COAX AN ATTACK OUT OF HIM, DODGE IT AND COUNTERATTACK. Analogy-wise, I don't think that Arthas could paint a picture by proxy using a ghoul.

Similarly, I seriously doubt Arthas will stand by a ghoul in an artillery gun and start instructing it on how to load it, use it, and fire it; especially since the ghoul has no memory. Doesn't really seem like a good use of his time, does it. I would just like to add some thing to this. Even if the ghoul could follow Arthas' commands to fire a piece of artillery, how is he supposed to command a bunch of them in different locations to do the exact samething, targeting different areas. And as for the using of our technology, such as guns, zombies and such, even if they figured out how to fire them, aren't really bright enough to reload them. As for the types of undead, lets review how best to kill one, shall we? Accolyte:anything that would kill a human, since they are still alive. Ghoul: fire, run over by a tank, anything big and heavy, explosives. banshees: probably anything that does enough damage, as it seems corporeal weapons hurt them, as stated in an earlier post. Abominations: Fire!! they are still made of flesh, and flesh burns. Meat Wagons: a well place HE tank shot will do the trick. Necromancers: Fire, run over by tank. Crypt Fiend: a couple bullets to the brain should do the trick, otherwise, more fire and explosives, and a possible running over by a tank. Gargoyles: a few hellfire missiles from an apache or cobra gunship will solve that problem, as will a few bullets, since they aren't really dead, they just work for the dead. Frostworms: More missiles and HE shots from tanks and bazookas and such. In short, the weapons we have will bring any undead unit down miles before it can reach us. As for shades: thermal imaging will still pick up cold things, just a little harder to see. And as for weapon and ammunition, near full wartime usage of materials will result in near completer domination of the undead armies. Meh, it's what I think, anyway.

Cyberspirit

01-18-2006, 6:21 AM

Exactly.
It only takes a few bombers + a commando squad + a normal tank division in one country to destroy the undead hundreds of times.

It is really a stretch to say that " bullets will not work against them / they can summon infinite numbers of skeletons/zombies / they can go anywhere they want ... "

How did we complete the last mission of WC3: RoC Night Elf campaign ?
By Godmodding ? Sometimes maybe ...

And if I remember correctly, the only reason we could not charge right into the undead base and wipe out all the undead in one go was because this tall green and bald demon lord with divine armour and insane chaos attack power was standing at its entrance.
( There is actually a way to wipe out the undead at the start of the game. Perhaps most here know it already. )

The scourge casters know necromancy yes,

but we have the most powerful magics in all game worlds:

advanced physics, biology etc.

Wait, how do we define " the arcane arts " ? Noone knows.

In Azeroth the study of magic counts as a science, so with the " magic is superior over science " assumption broken, we see that there really is nothing scary about necromancy.

Want to talk about scary magics ?
Why not consider demonic magics ?
Rain of Chaos, Dark portal, doom, world-wide corruption, etc ...

pwns necromancy in terms of destructive power.

singo

01-18-2006, 7:47 AM

and the accolites will also be able to opperate any milatary bases they have taken over

Do YOU know how to operate the technology in a military base? Because I do not, And I am assuming that Acolytes from a world without any technology more advanced than the catapult (Steam Tank I suppose, but the UD never used them) Will not be able to either.

william_clinch

01-18-2006, 11:28 AM

Yes, we could if we really wanted to.
I dont think there would be enough time, within days the scourge would be able to take down a vast chunk of the population, and weapon manurfactureing factorys aren;t independant, they need worker, raw materials, power etc. which would probably be in short supply

Accolytes:not so sure, they'd probably reek of death and be recognized.
Accolytes are just humans, with no difference to any other humans, other than they serve the lich king. In WCIII they successfully blended in with the regular population, untill it was time to strike
Shades: Umm, yeah, a group of invisible guys capable of doing nothing.
The same as they were in the game, they can be used spys and such.
Banshees: other that possessing someone, they aren't going to be able to do much
I wouldn't call possession not much. all they have to do is possess a general or something, and they can take down an army from the inside, send troops in to traps and such
Even if the ghoul could follow Arthas' commands to fire a piece of artillery, how is he supposed to command a bunch of them in different locations to do the exact samething, targeting different areas.
Arthas isn't the only inteligent being in the scourge army, there are numerous accolites as well
And as for the using of our technology, such as guns, zombies and such, even if they figured out how to fire them, aren't really bright enough to reload them.
they're only as smart as the people they were when they were alive, so if they could do it when they were alive, they can probably do it while they're dead

Do YOU know how to operate the technology in a military base? Because I do not, And I am assuming that Acolytes from a world without any technology more advanced than the catapult (Steam Tank I suppose, but the UD never used them) Will not be able to either.
I dont, but there are people who do, so all the scourge needs to do is get these people to join them
And the Acolytes would be from this world, that's how the lich king works, he starts a cult to gain followers(acolytes) from the local populous, then, in secret, the acolites spread the desesise/plauge whatever. Everyone who has been infected dies, and rises as zombies.
On earth, chances are that some acolytes will be in very influential positions. As food production and distribution is centralised, it will be easyer to spread the plauge. There will likely be some acolites in the armys as well, so they can easyly spread the infection to dissable the armys. on earth, they'll be able to turn over half the population in a day, far too short a time for any effective resistance

GenocideAlive

01-18-2006, 4:40 PM

Accolytes are just humans, with no difference to any other humans, other than they serve the lich king. In WCIII they successfully blended in with the regular population, untill it was time to strike
They're Undead. No human could be "healed" by a Death Coil.
I wouldn't call possession not much. all they have to do is possess a general or something, and they can take down an army from the inside, send troops in to traps and such
Possession of a general wouldn't be too easy to pull off, first of all, second of all, a simple codeword to be taught to all generals would suffice to immediately be able to determine which have been possessed. Not to mention that I seriously doubt a banshee could possess a general and go through all of the motions of a modern military campaign. The banshees may have their bodies, but they won't have their memories or knowledge.
Arthas isn't the only inteligent being in the scourge army, there are numerous accolites as well
You're really grasping at straws, here. The Scourge has no more capacity to operate machinery than the Zerg do. They just don't have the presence of mind to be able to comprehend sophisticated instructions. And acolytes have never expressed any ability to control or order the Scourge around.
they're only as smart as the people they were when they were alive, so if they could do it when they were alive, they can probably do it while they're dead
WRONG! If Albert Einstein were ressurrected by a Raise Dead spell, they wouldn't have a fucking genius working for them, they'd have a dwarf skeleton. Same with ghouls, same with abominations, same with anything raised from the dead. The only time you could maintain their faculties (in regard to capability, not knowledge) would be in possession. Otherwise, there's no evidence to support that anything ressurected by the Undead is anything other than a meat puppet.

Xenon

01-18-2006, 5:46 PM

The Scourge has no more capacity to operate machinery than the Zerg do. They just don't have the presence of mind to be able to comprehend sophisticated instructions. And acolytes have never expressed any ability to control or order the Scourge around.

I disagree with you only on this one point. I am not really interested in this whole topic, but I did just waste several moments reading through it, and thought I should point out that the Scourge DO use machinery...

http://www.battle.net/war3/images/undead/units/animations/meatwagon.gif (http://%3Cfont%20face=%22arial,helvetica%22%3E%3Cfont%20s ize=%22-1%22%3Ehttp://www.battle.net/war3/images/undead/units/animations/meatwagon.gif)

One of the strangest and most dire tools utilized by the undead Scourge is the dreaded Meat Wagon. This rickety contraption is used to collect and store recently slain corpses from the field of battle. At any time, corpses can be pulled from the Meat Wagon and raised into undead warriors. The Meat Wagon can also 'fling' diseased corpses at enemy units by use of a crude catapult device. An invaluable support vehicle for the Scourge, the Meat Wagon strikes fear and woe into the hearts of even the most resolute defenders.

william_clinch

01-18-2006, 6:31 PM

They're Undead. No human could be "healed" by a Death Coil.
yes they can, but only if they serve the scourge. Read the WCIII manual, it says they are human men, but it doesn't say they are dead anywhere. If they were dead, they wouldn't be able to sacrafice themselfs to create undead units.

Possession of a general wouldn't be too easy to pull off, first of all, second of all, a simple codeword to be taught to all generals would suffice to immediately be able to determine which have been possessed. Not to mention that I seriously doubt a banshee could possess a general and go through all of the motions of a modern military campaign. The banshees may have their bodies, but they won't have their memories or knowledge.
Although it says the posetion isn't permanent, where does it say the banshees are unable to posses the mind as well as the body? If the banshee could only posess the bodys of units, then they would not move like unposessed units, and would not be able to perform the regula actions (use weapons/tools) of that unit

The Scourge has no more capacity to operate machinery than the Zerg do. They just don't have the presence of mind to be able to comprehend sophisticated instructions. And acolytes have never expressed any ability to control or order the Scourge around.
How difficult can it be to order people around? And we already know they are able to carry out commands, so they can't be as compleatly retarded as you seem to think

WRONG!
I haven;t read anywhere that the dead dont retain any memory, only that they are bent to the will of the lich king. I've always asumed they did retain some of there intelegence, as they seem capable of moveing, understanding people, following orders, and if someone didn't have a brain, or had it wiped clean, they wouldn't be able to do any of this

frazz

01-18-2006, 6:53 PM

Wow, GA, did you even play the campaigns through? Look at sylvanas, her will was bent towards Arthas', and she was still a pretty smart banshee. Also the undead can only raise fresh corpses. Einstein's would be invalid being that his brain was chopped up intos several peicses and sent around the world for study(its true!). But today with enbalming corpses would stay fresh for quite some time. Getting them out of the caskets might present a slight problem however.
On another note you didn't say anything about the plague spreading.
And there are plenty of people out there whose wills could be turned toward the lich king. Whethe by cults or the use of some slight magic.

GenocideAlive

01-18-2006, 8:34 PM

Wow, GA, did you even play the campaigns through? Look at sylvanas, her will was bent towards Arthas', and she was still a pretty smart banshee
Sylvanis wasn't raised from the dead, numbnuts. Her roaming spirit was ripped from the afterworld and corporealized. And I seem to recall her shooting Arthas into a paralysis while he was trying to get to the Lich King.
Although it says the posetion isn't permanent, where does it say the banshees are unable to posses the mind as well as the body? If the banshee could only posess the bodys of units, then they would not move like unposessed units, and would not be able to perform the regula actions (use weapons/tools) of that unit
It's akin to retaining usage of one's amigdala. Higher functions are lost, while lower functions that can support your life are retained. There's basically no way that you could argue that the Scourge have higher thinking function, because if the influence of the Lich King is removed, they basically turn into animals.

Think of the Lich King as an animal trainer--they can be trained to obey certain commands like "sit", but there's pretty much no way that he's going to be able to teach them "Train and lock reticule on possible hostiles, lead them, and fire when they're vulnerable. Then unlock the casing, open the gun rear, remove the empty casing with pads (fire--hot), put in a new shell, close the casing, and repeat."

And I hardly consider a crude catapult to be anything in need of sophisticated understanding to operate:

Step 1. Put body on loader.
Step 2. Aim.
Step 3. Release spring.
Step 4. Replace spring.
Step 5. Repeat.

WCIII siege weapons are also notorious for being extremely poor in terms of accuracy. Is it because they're struggling to handle the mechanics of even the simplest siege? I'm thinking so.

frazz

01-19-2006, 1:17 AM

Ok banshees can posses someone and nowhere does the game dissuport that the banshees do not get the information of the souls they captured. For example, in one mission the banshee possesed the bandit mercenary leader, and the leader was able to stir his troops to battle. He probably didn't say "OK men, I have had my soul stolen, so start working for these undead!" And based on what the ogre leader said, he was still acting like an ogre, but he "serves pretty ghosts now". The people are the same as they were, but once possesed they "serve pretty ghosts now".
Sylvanis wasn't raised from the dead, numbnuts. Her roaming spirit was ripped from the afterworld and corporealized.
Whatever she still had a pretty vivid memory of her pre-undead life. And the other banshees were smart enough to sympathize with their sister, having gone through a somewhat similar thing, they were now free from the will of Arthas. I don't care how she got to being undead, she was still pretty darn smart.

GenocideAlive

01-19-2006, 1:39 AM

Ok banshees can posses someone and nowhere does the game dissuport that the banshees do not get the information of the souls they captured.
Sorry, but proofs don't really work that way. You must prove that the banshees retain the body's memory and faculties, I don't have to prove that they didn't. Any time you find yourself forcing someone to prove something DIDN'T, you immediately know you're on a crumbling foundation and should probably just shut the fuck up. A bandit lord and an ogre both require relatively little expertise to imitate, don't you think? Any idiot can yell "LET'S KILL SOMETHING! RRRAAAAA!" and get people whom have already sworn fealty to come along. And the ogres even know that their leader was possessed...they just don't care.
Whatever she still had a pretty vivid memory of her pre-undead life.
OK, so now you're completely abandoning your point earlier and just saying "whatever, I'm right even though we're talking about apples and oranges". A banshee is not a ressurrected corpse. A banshee is a corporealized corrupted Night Elf spirit. Like a shade is a corporealized corrupted human spirit. Ghouls, skeletons, abominations, etc. are examples of corpses that have been raised--the mainstay of the UD army. I don't even know why I'm arguing, you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground.

frazz

01-19-2006, 1:43 AM

OK GA. I still presented proof that you did not look at apparently. One more thing I just thought of: if the possesed bodies did not maintain their faculties and knowledge, how could they cast advanced spells, or build structures etc.
On your second point I think we have a misunderstanding and we are thinking about two different subjects, but it seems irrelevant now so I will just abandon the point(whatever it may be).

Cyberspirit

01-19-2006, 2:19 AM

Whatever Sylvanas and the banshees became, they would not be joining the Scourge in the invasion of Earth.
...

For hell's sake, just go to www.shatteredenigma.com (http://www.shatteredenigma.com) -> featured stories -> warcraft -> The Forgotten Ones

and read how the undead was thrashed by a swarm of unthinking tentacled monsters with clubs and a few hundred Nerubians empowered by elemental magics.

OK you can argue that that was not part of the official Warcraft storyline,
but tell me how the undead could have won.
Raise more skeletons ?
Spread the plague ?
Use Deathcoil and Cripple on every Faceless ?
... ?

Oh yes, in this story the Forsaken got slaughtered as well.
Think the undead would win by possessing the enemy huh ...

frazz

01-19-2006, 11:58 AM

OK you can argue that that was not part of the official Warcraft storyline,
I will do that.

william_clinch

01-19-2006, 1:46 PM

Sorry, but proofs don't really work that way. You must prove that the banshees retain the body's memory and faculties, I don't have to prove that they didn't.
we have given evidence that they do, and you haven't given any against
If you want more proof, mabey you should try playing the game
Here are some examples for you
-Silvanis when turned in to a banshee retains her memorys
-When other units are possesed by banshees, they are still able to perform all the things they could origionally do (the banshee must therefore have access to there memorys). There is no noticeable difference between the un possesd unit, and the possesed unit, even if the unit is more intelegent than an orge
-The Death Knights 'Animate Dead' ability, allows him to reserect recently fallen units, which retain the abilities they had in life

There's basically no way that you could argue that the Scourge have higher thinking function, because if the influence of the Lich King is removed, they basically turn into animals.
How do you explain the forsaken then?

Sgt.SlagRock

01-19-2006, 2:59 PM

william_clinch

01-19-2006, 4:19 PM

Do you know how long it takes to counter normal deseises? Now think how much longer it would take to effectivly counter a magical deseise.
And by spreading the plauge by way of central distribution, half the population could be infected in several days

frazz

01-19-2006, 5:08 PM

yes, and that would take a buttload of time. I do agree with genocide alive that if we could capture them and find out what makes them tick we could find out a counter to their plauge. Oh and to the morale of the people fighting the zombies. If I just saw me next door neighbor being eaten by his mom. I think I would pull out my shotgun and blast it, no matter how confused or scared i was. When it comes to entities with skin peeling off their flesh, i think i would resort to the rule shoot first and think later ;)

oh yea, and you know. They could most likely develope a vaccine, pill. that you could ingest to counter the effects of the zombification processes. And to the meat chucker wagon thing. Give me a M1A2 Abrams and i'll show you a meat chucker :P
You see the reason people are so scared of the bird flu is that there is no effective nice vaccine against it. Same with other diseases. Some don't even have vaccines! Now a magical plague that turns people into walking undead. Only the truly brave vaccine making people would want to work with this kind of plague. Especcialy if we didn't notice what caused it right away. In WC3 the people all ate the infested food. They didn't notice much. Now think of just seeing half your family turning into zombies... Would your first thought be " Whoa, glad I didn't eat the porkloaf!". No, your first thought would be, OH NOES! they're zombies!
Also note that the average civilian doesn't have direct acces to an Abrahm with crew:P
Infact, the US has so little interior military force. Now, if you were trying to wipe out humanity as fast as possible, and you were a zombie(read terrorist) and you had a deadly plague(read hijacked plane), would you attack a million civilians or a dozen tanks?

Also everyone should remember that no Nation has a respones time of one hour. At 9/11, some people knew the planes were hijacked a while before they hit the towers. But communications just weren't fast enough to do anything about it. You can't just pick up ur cell and call the FBI and ask for an Abrahms. The conversation would be like this:
Slagrock: Ya well, we got some zombies and they're kinda skinning everybody alive
FBI: Some what?
Slagrock: zombies! Z-O-M-B-I-E-S ZOMBIES!
FBI: riiiight.....
Slagrock: Ok, now that you understand I'm gonna need a few Abrahms tanks down here at J street
FBI: Sir don't worry I have the solution
Slagrock: Really what is it?
FBI: Find a line, stand on it...
Slagrock: ok...
FBI: Now, touch the tip of your nose and recite the alphabet backwards with out falling over
Slagrock: Hey! is this a sobriety test?
FBI: Sir I've got another call coming in I don't have time for this nonsense
Slagrock: But the zombies!
FBI: *hangs up*

Ok I think you get the point. As a final statement, remember that most civilians don't even have guns. In some citys it's illegal to have guns at all.
Sorry for the long post.

singo

01-19-2006, 5:47 PM

Ok I think you get the point. As a final statement, remember that most civilians don't even have guns. In some citys it's illegal to have guns at all.
Sorry for the long post.

Probably just as well if they are all turning into Zombies....

Even so, there WOULD be survivors, the military WOULD be largely unaffected and they are the ones with the firepower.

Also, the plague can only be spread by eating it as far as I remember. And they hardly let just anyone into a food processing factory thingy with a few containers full of plague.

frazz

01-19-2006, 5:59 PM

Probably just as well if they are all turning into Zombies....

Even so, there WOULD be survivors, the military WOULD be largely unaffected and they are the ones with the firepower.

Also, the plague can only be spread by eating it as far as I remember. And they hardly let just anyone into a food processing factory thingy with a few containers full of plague.
sigh, why don't you just read the thread? the points have already been made. 1. Third world countries would be down the terlet right from the get go
2.(new point) Farmer's markets, swap meets and such are not heavily regulated.
3. Use a banshee to posess someone high up in the food proccesing chain. Or a few people. have them lower conditions enough for one posessed guy to get in and dump the plague. This is quite doable, and there wouldn't be swat officers running in shouting"who isn't following food safety regulations?!!?".
4. You could just infest crops, cattle, etc.

Your military statement makes a point. But the military is by and large dependent on the civilians, if enough food was infested, it would be hard to get food, if only half the civilians died before the military could do anything, the whole economy would be down the drain, and our main resources for the military would not get to them.(no oil, food, rubber, etc.) Sure the US military could do a job on the undead, and maybe kill them out for the most part. But with the loss of civilians, All of Africa, and most of Asia, and half of Europe, all Of South america, and half of North America, we would be effectively disabled, thus easy pickings for the undead.

psycho42b

01-19-2006, 7:15 PM

As for the whole food "problem", How do you infect food that is sterilized (usually, although there are exceptions), and then checked and rechecked for any abnormalities. That, and as I recall, after a few days, the infected food in RoC was quite noticably infected (at least in game, it was). Now, as for WC's comment about us needing a few days for production of weapons, go find a really good history book or something, and tell me how long it took to build something in WWII. If I recall correctly, a destroyer was made in somtheing like two weeks, on average. The weapons I'm talking aren't anywhere near as big, and if full force was put behind it, I'm thinkg a matter of days, a week tops for the more complicated things. flamethrowers? pfft, rolling out of the factories after being put on full produciton like we eat food. As for the chemicals, a few days, but we already have a small supply of backup. Then, you back up and look at the rest of the world. China, for instance, could more than likely repeat what we did in WWII, only a little better with out help. Of course, Africa's toast on this one, they don't have much going for them in this one. But Europe. some (or most) parts of Asia, and most parts of the American continents will have this thing mostly down pat within days. Besides, once one country falls, the rest WILL take notice.

Sgt.SlagRock

01-19-2006, 7:35 PM

"4. You could just infest crops, cattle, etc."

wow, zombie cows, ewww...... lol, ur right about that frazz. But most states, cities do allow personal firearms. And how long does the zombification process take? now that making a medication is out of the picture. WE could just kill the people b4 they turn into zombies ;). although i'm not sure everybody would approve of that.. lol... btw, are the potals themselfs destroyable? If so, just send a few ICBMs and cut off their main node of transportation.

Tranxiety

01-19-2006, 11:48 PM

WE could just kill the people b4 they turn into zombies ;). although i'm not sure everybody would approve of that.. lol... btw, are the potals themselfs destroyable? If so, just send a few ICBMs and cut off their main node of transportation.
But do we really know who's infected? What if someone "might've" bit into a plagued apple, do you think he'd tell anyone? Don't you think even if they found out, loved ones would try to protect him or pretend that he might've eaten a safe one? If they can't get a safe way of detecting said plague in specific people, a nice large population could get infected before its even taken effect. I'm not talking about poisoning in the factor, I'm talking about walking into a supermarket with hands covered in the plauge, pretending to check different fruits and whatnot, picking up foods. A few dozen people each supermarket and voila, an army at your disposal.

The portals seem to be only destroyable by mystical means, as seen in WC2 where a powerful mage closed it I believe.

Now, as for those who don't believe even Satanists would join the undead, I'd like to remind of a bargaining tool that people would kill for. Immortality.

Thats right, its what people have tried for centuries with medicine and elixirs, always trying to extend life. Do you realize how tempting it would be for many people to be removed from fear of death? I believe this was a convincing factor in WC3, especially for mages and pretty much why the acolytes did what they did. Humans today are no less...greedy. Would you rather have your sick terminally ill mom die, or give her a second life?
Popular soverignty would give way and no politician would dare attack unprovoked against such a person.

Arthas alone could broadcast this and cause an internal revolution without the Scourge ever having to shed one drop of blood. I didn't say the scourge has to kill everyone, I'm saying mankind could turn on itself. By the time they realized this involved becoming mindless slaves of the Lich King as well, it'd be too late.

frazz

01-20-2006, 12:22 AM

Sarge: lol zombie cows! But ya even when the mage in WC 2 destroyed the portal gate, the rift still wasn't closed. But in WC3 some magic was used to effectively close portals. But the US would launch an ICBM on the portal, if they found it, and waste all their nukes.
Psycho: Even our food isn't that safe. Like I said earlier, just get control of an owner of a food thingy, and lower the levels of sterilization, again, it would take weeks to get stuff to change, by then it'd be too late.
weapons: You're right they can be built quickly, but it's the response time I'm talking about. In WW2 they didn't have destroyers being built that fast first day of the war. You have to get your resources together, you know?
TRANXIETY:Whoa tranxiety, I never thought of that. Wow ya, regular people today can convince people to join their cults, think what Arthas could do. We touched on the subject of cults earlier, but I don't think anybody realized there would be millions of people bowing before the undead, just begging for the chance to gain immortality. 'Course, in a couple weeks, after the undead ravaged the world, about half the undead would be wishing they turned earlier. For the side of light, I would like to say that the other half realize that the souls who took the undead's offer, would eventually wish they hadn't accepted this "immortality".

EvilEggCracker

01-20-2006, 11:24 AM

Well, Arthas would probobly offer rich politicians and presidents immortality. Thus some armies would actually ally with the Undead. Im sure most of the modern countries though wouldnt join up, what with the opinions of the people always a deciding factor. But countries like say...Iran would ally with The Scourge and perhaps othe African countries.

Lots of people seem to be saying, "just possess a high up person in the food production" How do the Undead even know how the food production works? How do they know who to possess? I certainly dont...

Weapons production wouldnt be much of a problem, just getting the countries to actually produce firearms will be the problem.

But, if someone was infected, would they feel sick and go to the doctor? If so then Im guesssing we could combat the plague pretty well. Whos to say simple anti-biotics wouldnt help make people immune to the plague?

william_clinch

01-20-2006, 1:41 PM

Like I've already said numerous times, accolites are just humans that serve the scourge. Out of the millions of humans that do join the scourge, at least a few will either be either in the food industry, or know something about it.

And I dont see why the military would be uneffected, they're human, and need to eat as well, dont then? It may even be easyer to infect the millitary, as soldiers are usually found together in millitary bases, rather than spread out throughout a city. And they have less coice in what they eat as well.

Tranxiety

01-20-2006, 2:34 PM

Well, Arthas would probobly offer rich politicians and presidents immortality. Thus some armies would actually ally with the Undead. Im sure most of the modern countries though wouldnt join up, what with the opinions of the people always a deciding factor. But countries like say...Iran would ally with The Scourge and perhaps othe African countries.

Lots of people seem to be saying, "just possess a high up person in the food production" How do the Undead even know how the food production works? How do they know who to possess? I certainly dont...
You think the masses would turn down immortality? Thats like them turning down medicine. I mean heck, I think there are laws in the US that prevent euthanasia/suicide which would FORCE people to do so. Essentially not choosing to keep people alive is against the law so turning down immortality should be essentially the same.

As for knowing the inner workings, you may not know, but thats because
1. You're probably not interested nor have you done any research that is readily available especially in this day and age
2. You don't have an army of shades to act as your eyes. I'm pretty sure they have some degree of intelligence or they wouldn't be much use as recon units.

frazz

01-20-2006, 5:27 PM

Whos to say simple anti-biotics wouldnt help make people immune to the plague?
medical science, for one. Also remember that the plague can take affect in less than a day.

Sgt.SlagRock

01-20-2006, 8:34 PM

well sqrew it. they have majic, we don't, end of story. I just got done debating frazz for like 15min on aim. and we faced all the facts. so yea, i do think the scourge would be able to get us. but u know what
? I say that we get firebats if they get spellcasters. lol

frazz

01-21-2006, 12:25 AM

Well, the fact is, the world just isn't prepared for a transdimensional undead attack. And we thought we were smart trying to find a vaccine for the bird flu. It would appear that there is noone left willing to argue on behalf of the humans winning. Well, I am glad we are in accordance seargent.

GenocideAlive

01-21-2006, 2:55 AM

It would seem that anybody that wants to argue this reasonably has to immediately deal with hoardes of little fanbois that will inevitably drown out the voice of reason with endless theories of magic. And as long as there's no way to determine what magics the UD would have at their disposal and the conditions behind their arrival, there's no real way to determine a scenario in which the human populace could win. All arguments in favor will immediately be trumped by BUT THE UD IS MAGIC, and will promptly nosedive because there is no logical retort to anything so rooted in make-believe.

It just goes on and on...they could raise all the dead from the graveyards. Or Arthas could promise everybody immortality. Or they could plague all of the food supplies. Or they could possess everybody. Or they could take over our weaponry and technology and use it against us. Or they could trick everybody into eating the food, etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum.

To hear it described, the Scourge are an invicible armada of unstoppable power no matter any preparation or opposition to their plans. Who would want to sit here and quibble over it?

frazz

01-21-2006, 12:30 PM

So are you admitting you lost? Because you proved my point in your post. And please don't post something like that just to make yourself look smart even though you lost the argument.

GenocideAlive

01-21-2006, 1:15 PM

So are you admitting you lost? Because you proved my point in your post. And please don't post something like that just to make yourself look smart even though you lost the argument.
I don't need to "make myself look smart" as long as people like you are around. My post was an address of the fact that without details, there's no way to mount an argument for either side. Without them, the arguments are basically nuh-uh! -- yes-huh! bullshit. They will go on indefinitely or as long as both sides are willing to waste their time talking. I [was] pointing this out.

So if Neo wants to re-ask the original question with some details in regard to the invasion, it's debateable. But as long as the circumstances surrounding the invasion are unknown and undetermined, to argue is pointless. And also irritating, considering my "opponents".

Tranxiety

01-21-2006, 2:34 PM

I've tried to argue keeping their "magic" limited to what they've shown so far. Skeletons are not invincible, we have seen them be taken down by humans, and while certain types of modern weaponry would not work, we've agreed that certain types would. I wanted people to keep a realistic useage of modern day weaponry, warfare, and politics to face such an enemy, not a modified world to match theirs. While they have troops far more durable than normal humans, our weapons aren't only capable of taking down humans.

For my argument of Artha's proposal of immortality, humanity currently has a horde of skeptics and debunkers, as well as being an unrivaled propaganda machine that could turn away believers and make it seem as though Arthas is lying or his lack of an SSN or any sort of identity/known origin would make any comments by him seem less credible. If he brings undead as proof, it would give our military time to learn about them and organize while media outlets and skeptics would make claim of parlor tricks/computer editing

This would move his hand towards a more offensive assault.
If he revealed himself, he would lose the advantage of a total surprise.

While we are seemingly far more divided in today's day and age, the events of 9/11 have shown the ability for people to quickly join together in the face of adversity. People are willing to die rather than negotiate with terrorists. In a way, the policy of refusal to negotiate would make it easier to attack the Scourge
The main threat is not magic but numbers. While there are destructive magics, most are aimed at people whereas we have the ability to control weapons via computer.

While attacking a city is feasible, like I said earlier, the propagation of information in the current world is nigh instantaneous.
Tracking the source of the incoming invasion is possible nowadays given satellites that can view the earth within 100 meters of accuracy. In order to move such a large number of undead, this should be feasible to spot given enough time. A barricade would be implausible but attacking the Lich King directly should be possible given our level of technology. Also possible is to cut off the source. Guarding locations of the portals should stem the tide of sources. Also, it would prevent any reconnaisance on their side. It would require some sort of general or commander on this side to maintain their troops in an intelligent fashion which could be effectively eliminated. While the undead are mindless, they are an army nonetheless.
It requires necromancers and time to raise the dead, so once we learn about them, we can kill them. Necromancers are virtually human so they can be killed with bullets and modern weaponry.

Now, the question is how we would react to an attack on a city. Past experience has shown both times of order falling apart in crisis and also times of unification. However, most cases of times of crisis in which there is a common enemy shared by the majority, unity tends to arise. Mostly in the face of natural disasters does panic cause havoc.

Dealing with food supplies. Given early enough detection, I believe people will be willing to close down stores if compensated. Most people have food available to survive on long enough for a more controlled source of rationing food becomes available. While it is a magical plague, it is spread through the food and thus controlled food would prevent its spread.

Given that it is a worldwide disaster, aide should be available through the UN, and even opposing countries should be able to form temporary alliances.

Hording of materials is still an issue but threats of attacks on said countries could deter this. Public opinion would generally still be swayed against leaders if they attack people in times like this, but given worldwide support of other leaders, it would not last long. Even the masses of a single country cannot say that their leader did the wrong thing if every other leader does the same

frazz

01-21-2006, 2:55 PM

For my argument of Artha's proposal of immortality, humanity currently has a horde of skeptics and debunkers, as well as being an unrivaled propaganda machine that could turn away believers and make it seem as though Arthas is lying or his lack of an SSN or any sort of identity/known origin would make any comments by him seem less credible. If he brings undead as proof, it would give our military time to learn about them and organize while media outlets and skeptics would make claim of parlor tricks/computer editing
Arthas is isn't stupid. He would just take the regular steps any cult would take. And he would show undead as proof to individuals(probably not in person), not on camera. As news of his cult spread, he would just be called another satanic cult leader, there being really no camera evidence of his 'magic'.
Dealing with food supplies. Given early enough detection, I believe people will be willing to close down stores if compensated. Most people have food available to survive on long enough for a more controlled source of rationing food becomes available. While it is a magical plague, it is spread through the food and thus controlled food would prevent its spread.
Early enough protection is not a given. It would be something nobody notices. Until 1 out of every ten people have eaten infested food. Then Arthas would call to himself the cult of the undead. And raise those who have eaten the fould plague to himself. Some might stay undercover, like military people, someone said earlier that this would be easy to infect soldiers in a barracks, and reveal themselvesonce they are called to fight the undead. With a tenth of humans infected, economy would collapse, and you could not feal safe in your own home(or at the police station, or in military protection).
Given that it is a worldwide disaster, aide should be available through the UN, and even opposing countries should be able to form temporary alliances.
The UN isn't good for much of anything. They haven't done much useful. WE took the heaviest load in the middle east. WE are probably the ones who are going to have to step in once north korea and Iran start building nukes.
Besides, a squad of banshees could infect the UN. With the beurocracy the UN goes through, help would come to late.

I don't need to "make myself look smart" as long as people like you are around. My post was an address of the fact that without details, there's no way to mount an argument for either side. Without them, the arguments are basically nuh-uh! -- yes-huh! bullshit. They will go on indefinitely or as long as both sides are willing to waste their time talking. I [was] pointing this out.
The details you are citing, what details are you citing? Anyway, we just have to assume that Arthas would be leaing(he's pretty smart), thus the undead wouldn't do anything stupid. In WC3, the undead snuck in pretty well, awakening the cult at just the right time. Sure that's all ancient. But the military aspect is so little, being how powerful they were at the end of TFT, they could do much better with the plague and cult.

I've seen you do this, GA. You argue until you're beaten, and then you pull the "This argument is pointless!" trick out of your hat. You were goin "nuh-uh!", "yes-hu!", until the argument turned sour, then you just go trying to make yourself look good and putting down everyone who wasn't on your side.

GenocideAlive

01-21-2006, 8:50 PM

The details you are citing, what details are you citing? Anyway, we just have to assume that Arthas would be leaing(he's pretty smart), thus the undead wouldn't do anything stupid. In WC3, the undead snuck in pretty well, awakening the cult at just the right time. Sure that's all ancient.
Arthas was never proven "smart", half of his rise to power was based on betraying people's trust that he had earned over decades. If he weren't the son of a king, he wouldn't have been able to get close enough to kill the king. I don't think he'll have that little "betrayal" route to take when he comes to attack Earth. And nobody in WC3 has an instant telecommunications network, nor any imaging technology. I seriously doubt a cadre of Undead / magical beings could set foot on Earth without someone noticing.

What "cult" did Arthas awake at "just the right time"? Source plz kthx.
I've seen you do this, GA. You argue until you're beaten, and then you pull the "This argument is pointless!" trick out of your hat. You were goin "nuh-uh!", "yes-hu!", until the argument turned sour, then you just go trying to make yourself look good and putting down everyone who wasn't on your side.
I'm going to make and effort to avoid making your personal attacks at me the overall topic of this thread. But I am going to say that you are hands down the shittiest debator I've ever seen, and your intellectual capacity has to be no higher than that of a 13 year-old. The day I enter into an equal-footing debate and "lose" to someone as witless as you, I will fucking give up debating in earnest. I'm terribly sorry that you think you're sitting on top of the "I AM TEH WINAR!" pile and that I'm cheating you of that. Unfortunately, the sad fact is that you're making shit up as you go along, and as long as there's no one to control your bullshit factory and force it into the realm of basic logic then you're going to keep spouting fantasy crap until my ears bleed.

I mean...But the military aspect is so little, being how powerful they were at the end of TFT, they could do much better with the plague and cult....this makes no fucking sense, and it sure as hell isn't a sentence. But this is half of an argument with you/williamclinch--deciphering what the fuck you're talking about and where the hell you're trying to go with it. When you possess the writing skills of a 6th grader, it makes it difficult to form ideas well enough for someone else to understand them, much less interpret them into the context of a debate.

I should have known better, though. There's a reason that nobody else with any reading or writing skills would enter into this thread.

frazz

01-22-2006, 12:13 AM

I mean...But the military aspect is so little, being how powerful they were at the end of TFT, they could do much better with the plague and cult....this makes no fucking sense, and it sure as hell isn't a sentence. But this is half of an argument with you/williamclinch--deciphering what the fuck you're talking about and where the hell you're trying to go with it. When you possess the writing skills of a 6th grader, it makes it difficult to form ideas well enough for someone else to understand them, much less interpret them into the context of a debate.
Then leave and get away with your smugness.
What "cult" did Arthas awake at "just the right time"? Source plz kthx.
One of the undead leaders said this at the very beggining of the 1st UD mission in RoC. "It is time to awaken the cult of the damned." This was the point of the entire first mission. It's things like this that make me think you didn't even play the game through.
I mean...But the military aspect is so little, being how powerful they were at the end of TFT, they could do much better with the plague and cult....this makes no fucking sense,
I was saying that the point of debate for my side is that the UD will succeed on more than military might(being that they would lose in a head to head battle). They will use the advantages I have mentioned above.

Neo

01-22-2006, 10:02 AM

Please people remember to post seriously in IR. This means Frazz and Slagrock in particular.

Whiz perhaps you shouldve set up some rules... Seems kind of hard to discuss if your giving free reign over the entire idea of it (ie: you could claim that a few banshees could go possess the world leaders, or that a few death knights could raise invincable undead units to attack various areas, or that giant flying Frost Wyrms will come and freeze buildings with one blast). Raising the dead is one thing, but trying to imagine a real life version of Death Pact, or Frost Nova or even Unholy Frenzy or something is a bit far (You could claim that a lich could just summon DnD and kill anything) For that matter, How could a lich actually be in current times? A Dark Ranger? A crypt lord? Though a Crypt Lord actually would be interesting. Since his skills could all make sense -- tendrils tunneling under the earth to impale unaware troops, infesting corpses to create baby buy minions, having a thick carapace and being able to summon a massive amount of beetlees to tear apart troops to heal himself.

But a dark ranger? Summoning skelaton minions from dead corpses? Ok. Draining the life out of a victim? Huh, howd that work? Silencing humans (uhhh we dont do magic XD) and Charming someone -- whoever would find a DR charming will probably be supporting the undead already.

Wow talk about rambling.

I agree with GA a bit, to many fanboy-like attitude going in here :\

And whiz this was a great idea, perhaps it would work better in the warcraft forums? Perhaps you could try it out there instead of in IR.

-Neo

Sgt.SlagRock

01-22-2006, 6:41 PM

gee sorry about the silly comment i was just trying to lighten things up, but what is so realistic about tendrils burrowing through the ground and imapling other people? anyways couldn't frosy wryrms or whatever their called just be shot down with AA fire aka big nice 108mm shell/rocket to it's body?

psycho42b

01-22-2006, 7:14 PM

I'm just curious about something. frazz, you said the cult leader said awaken, correct? Well, awaken means that it was not awake before that time, and thusly was not under his control until they were awaken. How would you answer this?

Also, the infected food was kind of obvious, wasn't it? Or is that just my imagination?

And, perhaps my final thought to play accross my mind, who in their right mind would lower food preparation standards, and/or listen to such a thing? Wouldn't that cause a public uproar?

Just curious. thx.

frazz

01-22-2006, 10:49 PM

But a dark ranger? Summoning skelaton minions from dead corpses? Ok. Draining the life out of a victim? Huh, howd that work? Silencing humans (uhhh we dont do magic XD) and Charming someone -- whoever would find a DR charming will probably be supporting the undead already.

I guess you could imagine it as just casting a spell that makes one sympathize with the UD(stock-holme syndrome?), and make them want to turn on their allies.
Raising the dead is one thing, but trying to imagine a real life version of Death Pact, or Frost Nova or even Unholy Frenzy or something is a bit far (You could claim that a lich could just summon DnD and kill anything) For that matter, How could a lich actually be in current times? A Dark Ranger? A crypt lord? Though a Crypt Lord actually would be interesting. Since his skills could all make sense -- tendrils tunneling under the earth to impale unaware troops, infesting corpses to create baby buy minions, having a thick carapace and being able to summon a massive amount of beetlees to tear apart troops to heal himself.
Does this really contribute to the debate. But ya I would love to see those in action. Like Arthas being beat down by a squad of soldiers and sapping the life out of his own soldiers.
How could a lich actually be in current times?
What is this? Like they would just come through the portal? Please explain.

I'm just curious about something. frazz, you said the cult leader said awaken, correct? Well, awaken means that it was not awake before that time, and thusly was not under his control until they were awaken. How would you answer this?
Stop nitpicking and play the game. He alerted the undead cult to return to him and do whatever it was the lich dude wanted.
Also, the infected food was kind of obvious, wasn't it? Or is that just my imagination?
Well, everybody ate it.
And, perhaps my final thought to play accross my mind, who in their right mind would lower food preparation standards, and/or listen to such a thing? Wouldn't that cause a public uproar?
You'd be surprised how inactive the public can be. Besides, the banshee would posses the worker to lower the standards so someone else can infect the food. I mean at the factory or proccesing plant or w/e, the head guy would be possesed and he would let in the guy to infect the food.

GenocideAlive

01-22-2006, 11:51 PM

Besides, the banshee would posses the worker to lower the standards so someone else can infect the food. I mean at the factory or proccesing plant or w/e, the head guy would be possesed and he would let in the guy to infect the food.
It's automated. But this is classic.

william_clinch

01-23-2006, 2:11 PM

And food isn't created in a factory, and sent directly to peoples homes, there are many different stages at which it could be contaminated

And if you're haveing trouble understanding what the scourge, and there effectiveness, then mabey you should try playing the game. In it, it does show the dead being raised, the scourge infecting the food suply, people turning in to the undead from eating the food, people in authorative positions being possessed, the scourge useing technology, etc.

And the reason so many people are starting to favour the scourge in this argument, isn't because they're "fanboys", but because they've read the posts of this thread, and have seen that the evidence for the scourge takeing over earth is far greater than that against.

And try to come up with some new ideas, rather than just repeating the same thing over, and saying things wont work without evidince

Sgt.SlagRock

01-23-2006, 3:17 PM

I think the scorge would take the humans, but not in like, one week, maby in a month. Food is the earth's major downfall because of all of the points cinch stated. And the fact that the Scourge are mythical creatures and have the advantage of majic. while us humans have advanced weapons and science. I do think that if the humans did find out why people were randomly turning into zombies after they just ate grannys chicken pie. They could make new processes to eliminate that threat. I.E. pasturization.

EvilEggCracker

01-23-2006, 3:31 PM

But, just looking at this...didnt the medieval Humans have a good chance against the Scourge? How about Elves? And Orcs? The moment an army steps onto the planet, we would be on it.

Have you ever seen a banshee actually alk through walls? Shes not invisible...it would be pretty hard to possess someone in a crowded street... Also, didnt the Scourge loose a load of Undead to the Forsaken at the end of TFT? They dont have as much Undead left as most people are saying...

GenocideAlive

01-23-2006, 3:38 PM

And try to come up with some new ideas, rather than just repeating the same thing over, and saying things wont work without evidince
Holy shit. It's like you read my mind.

GUESS WHAT? ARTILLERY! WHAT'S YOUR FUCKING RESPONSE? YOU DON'T HAVE ONE. OH NOES POSSESS THE DEPLETED URANIUM ROUND BEFORE IT LANDS!!1!1 WAIT! POSSESS THE GUY FIRING THE ARTILLERY--BEFORE HE MANAGES TO FIRE IT! HIM AND HIS 3000 BUDDIES!

GUESS WHAT? BOMBS! WHAT'S YOUR FUCKING RESPONSE? YOU DON'T HAVE ONE. OH NOES POSSESS THE BOMB BEFORE IT STUFFS ITSELF UP YOUR ASS!1!!11! POSSESS THE PLANE AS IT FLIES OVERHEAD!1 GARGOYLE SOMETHING CRUISING AT MACH 1! NET SOMETHING FLYING AT 40,000FT!

GUESS WHAT? NUCLEAR ARMS! WHAT'S YOUR FUCKING RESPONSE? YOU DON'T HAVE ONE. OH NOES RAISE SOME DEAD! POSSESS A LEADER! IT'LL STOP THE BOMB!1!1!

GUESS WHAT? SATELLITE IMAGERY! WHAT'S YOUR FUCKING RESPONSE? YOU DON'T HAVE ONE. POSSESS...STUFF! RAISE...CANNIBALI...DEATH COIL...? I'VE GOT IT! POSSESS AN ASTRONAUT, FLY UP INTO THE STRATOSPHERE, AND START JUMPING FROM SATELLITE TO SATELLITE, HITTING THEM WITH A HAMMER!1!!1 PWNEED!11! CAST CRIPPLE ON THE RADIO WAVES!

GUESS WHAT? MARINE WARFARE! WHAT'S YOUR FUCKING RESPONSE? YOU DON'T HAVE ONE. THROW THE GHOUL IN THE WATER!1!1 HE'LL...FUCKING SINK!

Here's a fucking news flash--there's a very good REASON why as soon as you possess a unit, EVERY UNALLIED UNIT AROUND IT will attack it. Even if you possess it off by itself somewhere that nobody else could see you possess the unit, everybody in the game IMMEDIATELY KNOWS that unit has been possessed. Apparently something makes it OVERWHELMINGLY OBVIOUS that person has changed, and enough to make others attack it on sight.

You halfwits are cheesing the shit out of the discussion by falling back on possession and subterfuge as some sort of "Ultimate Copout" card. As though they're some sort of espionage experts and the Frozen Throne campaigns support that. If it were as you say, they would have never gotten into large-scale combat with the Orcs, the Humans, and the Night Elves. They would have just possessed a few of their number and attempted to infiltrate the highest levels of organization to ultimately backstab them. They didn't, because it isn't feasible or even possible. The Burning Legion and their Dreadlords possessed 10 times the subterfuge that the Lich King did.

There's absofuckinglutely NO WAY that the Scourge could land on Earth, learn about our technology, learn about our countries, learn about our political structure, learn about our military structure, infiltrate our government, infiltrate our military, establish a base of operations and stage a large-scale attack without someone being able to catch on at some point that something is HORRIBLY wrong. You can't "hide" 8-10ft 500lb. monsters with open gut wounds spewing plague and 30ft. long frost breathing dragon skeletons without someone being able to tell that SOMETHING is fucking fishy.

After the FIRST attack on ANY military installation ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD, the Scourge will be BUSTED. We can take pictures of them, their units, their capabilities, their technology (if you can call it that), everything about them. As soon as their hierarchy is established and its realized that they have "controllers" (Arthas, Lich King, etc.) they will be either smartbombed or NUKED depending on how pissed off everybody is at the moment. Then the Scourge will just sit there like fucking retards until we feel like sweeping them away. The scourge has nowhere NEAR the number of banshees available to possess any significant portion of the military and civilian power structure. Not to mention that these people might qualify as "heroes", and thus be unpossessable in the TFT sense.

Everything in this country is based on checks and balances and the bi-partisan system. You're not going to be able to possess a Democrat and start acting like a Republican, your party will discredit you and you won't be elected during the next term. You can't hijack an entire party and start chanting to kill everybody or overturn the government, you'll be voted into minority (observe: our current President) and have even less power than you started with.

The only reason even half of that shit was possible is because Arthas was the king's son. If he weren't commanding an army to ultimately betray and kill his own, he would have had a hell of a time getting anywhere. The Scourge didn't ever try any backhanded bullshit with the Orcs or the Nightelves, why is that? Because they can only "possess" one hero using Frostmourne, and nobody else was spoiled, brash, and stupid like Arthas. By the way, you can stop acting like Arthas and the Lich King are two different people. There's only one controller of the Scourge now; one leader, one target, one big, glaring weakness.

Edit: Don't come up with anymore bullshit about Arthas "promising immortality". He never displayed any such skills of diplomacy in TFT and as soon as he showed his queer face he'd only help Earth. Not to mention every Christian or Christian group on Earth would immediately declare him the anti-Christ and do everything in their power to work against him.

I guess all the goths and limp-dicked nobodies might convert, but I seriously doubt that's going to help the UD much besides to make a few more ghouls to be shredded by artillery and bombs.

SpeedyWorm1

01-23-2006, 3:50 PM

umm i kinda agree with Genocide... he pretty much said what i woulda said so ill guess ill just say........ SCOURGE GOT PWNT BICH HAHAHAHAHAHAH

singo

01-23-2006, 4:04 PM

Well if one side of the debate consists entirely of "mag1c ftw" or some such bollocks. Why not limit the magic that the scourge posess to that which they have actually displayed in WC eh?

So, area of effect spells cover a few dozen square feet at most. Skeletons (somehow) spring two from each corpse but require a big hunk of energy to animate, and the flying animals dont fly above a few hundred feet.

Are people SERIOUSLY saying that that gives them an advantage over even a single armoured regiment? Or a squadron of fighter bombers? Or even a few companies of infantry.

Do people really thing world leaders can be A) got close enough to to be posessed and B) Change colour completely unnoticed?

And more than anything, are a shambling horde of decomposing lumps a threat to even something so simple as an electric bloody fence let alone something that can shoot.

frazz

01-23-2006, 5:50 PM

Holy shit. It's like you read my mind.

GUESS WHAT? ARTILLERY! WHAT'S YOUR FUCKING RESPONSE? YOU DON'T HAVE ONE. OH NOES POSSESS THE DEPLETED URANIUM ROUND BEFORE IT LANDS!!1!1 WAIT! POSSESS THE GUY FIRING THE ARTILLERY--BEFORE HE MANAGES TO FIRE IT! HIM AND HIS 3000 BUDDIES!

GUESS WHAT? BOMBS! WHAT'S YOUR FUCKING RESPONSE? YOU DON'T HAVE ONE. OH NOES POSSESS THE BOMB BEFORE IT STUFFS ITSELF UP YOUR ASS!1!!11! POSSESS THE PLANE AS IT FLIES OVERHEAD!1 GARGOYLE SOMETHING CRUISING AT MACH 1! NET SOMETHING FLYING AT 40,000FT!

GUESS WHAT? NUCLEAR ARMS! WHAT'S YOUR FUCKING RESPONSE? YOU DON'T HAVE ONE. OH NOES RAISE SOME DEAD! POSSESS A LEADER! IT'LL STOP THE BOMB!1!1!

GUESS WHAT? SATELLITE IMAGERY! WHAT'S YOUR FUCKING RESPONSE? YOU DON'T HAVE ONE. POSSESS...STUFF! RAISE...CANNIBALI...DEATH COIL...? I'VE GOT IT! POSSESS AN ASTRONAUT, FLY UP INTO THE STRATOSPHERE, AND START JUMPING FROM SATELLITE TO SATELLITE, HITTING THEM WITH A HAMMER!1!!1 PWNEED!11! CAST CRIPPLE ON THE RADIO WAVES!

GUESS WHAT? MARINE WARFARE! WHAT'S YOUR FUCKING RESPONSE? YOU DON'T HAVE ONE. THROW THE GHOUL IN THE WATER!1!1 HE'LL...FUCKING SINK!

Here's a fucking news flash--there's a very good REASON why as soon as you possess a unit, EVERY UNALLIED UNIT AROUND IT will attack it. Even if you possess it off by itself somewhere that nobody else could see you possess the unit, everybody in the game IMMEDIATELY KNOWS that unit has been possessed. Apparently something makes it OVERWHELMINGLY OBVIOUS that person has changed, and enough to make others attack it on sight.

You halfwits are cheesing the shit out of the discussion by falling back on possession and subterfuge as some sort of "Ultimate Copout" car