Could the Cold War repeat itself?

[hammocksleeper]

Only this time, it would be the US vs. the world's second largest superpower, the European Union. Free trade against socialism and centralization. And just a fun analogy, remember the space race? Look, the EU even has their own space program, etc.! :)

Europe launches rival to GPS
http://www.thestar.com ^ | Dec. 29, 2005. 01:00 AM

PARIS—A satellite blasted into space yesterday to launch the European Union's $4 billion planned rival to the United States' Global Positioning System.

The test satellite took off from Kazakhstan aboard a Russian Soyuz rocket. The 600-kilogram satellite was released into orbit nearly four hours later, when it began transmitting signals.

[Kingscrab]

I think a "coldwar" with China would be more likely.

[EvilEggCracker]

I doubt it. The European Union and the US are pretty much allies. What Kingscrab said is far more likely. Remember that thing with Taiwan?China nearly declared war on the US. Their not particualarly friends.

[Mtank]

Another Cold war?

In the current scenario, it would be highly unlikely. Especially concerning EU or China against the US.

Both the EU and the China have extensive economic links with the US, its not like they can afford to or have any reason to sever them.

Also, such a situation takes a long time to come about. The Cold war had its origins right after the Russian revolution, where there was foreign intervention in Russia until 1920. Then the fact that the US refused to recognize the Soviet Union, its exclusion from the treaty of Versailes, and the fact that the Western Powers spent a lot of their energy appeasing fascism in hope that it would destroy communism, and so on.

What im trying to point out is, something like the Cold war needs some pretty intense factors backing it. Nothing of the sort exist between the EU and USA at the moment.

[EvilEggCracker]

the world's second largest superpower, the European Union.

Would the European Union not be more powerful than the US?

[Kingscrab]

What im trying to point out is, something like the Cold war needs some pretty intense factors backing it. Kinda like China threatening to invade Tawain and the USA beefing up their defenses? It's a different political climate sure, but similar signs are there. China stockpiling nukes and racing to get a man on the moon. It could happen.

But yeah, with the EU? I doubt it.

[GenocideAlive]

Um, yeah. The EU and the US fighting is pretty freaking unlikely; every third country over there is on "allied" terms with the US.

I'm interested to see how a war with China would pan out, considering they're sort of hitting their Industrial Revolution here recently. Obviously they stand to lose much more in terms of people, but how well could they actually mobilize their army to even come close to invading the US? It just seems like the solution these days is to just strap a nuke to the problem.

[hammocksleeper]

Um, yeah. The EU and the US fighting is pretty freaking unlikely; every third country over there is on "allied" terms with the US.

Of course. Anyone who's not an ally with us right now is an idiot. Just look what we might do to you (Iraq). But if the EU ever musters the courage and the willpower to challenge us, they certainly could try. The proxy wars that happened in Vietnam, Korea, Afganistan and the like could happen again in the Middle East, with the EU funding and arming various radical nations and terrorist groups with the aim of engaging Coalition troops or our proxies.

I'm not saying it will necessarily happen anytime soon, I'm just pointing out the possibility.

[Kingscrab]

I'm not saying it will necessarily happen anytime soon, I'm just pointing out the possibility. Why bother to point it out then? Throw down some specifics, dude. A random European country here and there investing in a suspicious country somewhere doesn't count either. We're talking about the EU as a whole. Sure it's not impossible, but come on.... I think the possibility of the USA starting a "cold war" with the EU is just silly. We happen to be in a military alliance with them (or most of them anyhow) at the moment. (Remember NATO?) Again, I'd be more concerned about China. They are probably the big slumbering dragon here.

EDIT: As for their GPS system: Sheesh... who wants to be dependant on the US military for their access to technology. I don't blame them!

[GenocideAlive]

I'm along with Kingscrab but on a different wavelength. I seriously doubt 1-2 nations in the EU could take on the US with any hope of winning, short of all-out nuclear war.

[ShadeZ]

I seriously hope the cold war does not repeat itself, but if the US keeps attacking countries, they just might eventually bark up the wrong tree.

I doubt it will happen against the EU anytime soon though, maybe against somebody else.

I'm along with Kingscrab but on a different wavelength. I seriously doubt 1-2 nations in the EU could take on the US with any hope of winning, short of all-out nuclear war.
In all-out nuclear war, there are no winners.

[WeekendLazyness]

Anyone who thinks that you can launch a nuclear weapon with the accidental push of a button is a moron. First off, the safeguards were put in place in the 60's, long before the Bush administration. These safeguards have improved over time since then, and include complicated launch codes that only the highest in command know. Also, the control of nuclear weapons in the U.S. is maintained by the U.S. Strategic Command, not a "load" of workers. Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Strategic_Command

[Yoda]

From conditions that exist now, I don't think that the Cold War could happen again against any other country. The USA/Britain never invaded Russia mostly because (I think) that both sides were very powerful. I don't think that Korea would last that long against the US in this nuclear weapons crisis. And I don't think that either side would want a war against China - both sides are very strong and nuclear weapons are not what anyone wants. I don't think that George Bush or whoever is the Leader of Equals in China would risk having a nuclear device fall on their heads.

[WeekendLazyness]

No country is dumb enough to actually launch a full scale nuclear attack. It almost guarantees retaliation leading to worldwide nuclear winter.

[EvilEggCracker]

Heres a question: if you were leader of a country and some other country launched a Nuke at your country, would you retaliate and possibly create nuclear winter for the entire world?

[GenocideAlive]

I don't know how it is now, but a while back, a group in a bomber could drop a bomb without too much difficulty(though I'm sure the government would be pretty selective when choosing these people).
Also, nowadays, if you get the right people on the right levels of command... but the president is not that stupid(no matter what people say).
You watch a little too much TV, buddy. BTW, that movie was called "Dr. Strangelove". When you've got a bomber with 4+ people in it, you're going to require one hell of a crazy bunch before they'd drop a nuke without permission.

That is, of course, assuming they could. I'm relatively sure that the codes that released and activated the nuke were secured in a safe onboard. The operators would be transmitted the combination to open the safe, and then could pull the codes from the safe to stick in the nuke to activate it, and into the plane to release the nuke. Once an AWACS saw the pilot deviating from his prescribed flyby course, they could make a decision: shoot the plane down themselves, inform the enemy of its deviation, or use some sort of radio-activated failsafe that would lock the doors shut.

[Neo]

I just deleted a whole bunch of posts I deamed crappy for IR. If you don't like it, cry to someone else.

Expect this as a warning of things to come, IR will shape up, and if you think I am being to harsh... or unfair, etc... Well, tough =P

At any rate; IR is a place where you talk about facts and such. If you truly think Bush could push a button to launch a nuke, you need to use google, or wikipedia or something before even trying to contribute.

-Neo

[Snot]

Wow NeoX... I like how you handled that... but that is off topic.

It has always been a possibility that the Cold War will happen again, with the ammount of nukes that both countries have, I'm glad no one has fired one. Both the US and the former Soviet Union are still not quite sure of one another. The 1st war truely did not end, so it's still going, but it's just calmer now than it was. Being in the US armed forces has it's certain advantages... but before a war does happen, both the US and Russia would more than likely do all in their own power to diffuse it, if not... aduios muchachos.

[WeekendLazyness]

Wow NeoX... I like how you handled that... but that is off topic.

It has always been a possibility that the Cold War will happen again, with the ammount of nukes that both countries have, I'm glad no one has fired one. Both the US and the former Soviet Union are still not quite sure of one another. The 1st war truely did not end, so it's still going, but it's just calmer now than it was. Being in the US armed forces has it's certain advantages... but before a war does happen, both the US and Russia would more than likely do all in their own power to diffuse it, if not... aduios muchachos.Actually, the fall of the Berlin Wall (and fall of the Soviet Union after that) signified the end of the Cold War.

[GenocideAlive]

Wow NeoX... I like how you handled that... but that is off topic.
It took some prodding, but at least one of the mods stepped up.

Allah. Step up, get served. Voltron style.

[Neo]

Remember to stay on topic. GA I know you feel the need to respond to stuff, but couldn't you have at least done what CC did?

As for the cold war returning;

I strongly doubt it. I think at this point in our history (And with the internet, oddly enough), that it wouldn't be possible to 'wage' another cold war... After all what else is there? Advanced Medical techniques? Getting to mars?

The internet, for those of us who use it, has really opened up a lot of peopls eyes. You can debunk so much of the shit you see and hear on TV just by using Google, they would like you to think that everyone who is Muslim is a fanatic... But thats not true is it?

Meh, I am getting off topic.

A Cold War would be pretty hard to do wouldn't it?

-Neo

[GenocideAlive]

Remember to stay on topic. GA I know you feel the need to respond to stuff, but couldn't you have at least done what CC did?
I could respond to this by saying "couldn't you have done what hammocksleeper did?" Note how this comparison is completely inappropriate, and by and large almost entirely meaningless. I'm not CC, you're not hammocksleeper. Moving on.
I strongly doubt it. I think at this point in our history (And with the internet, oddly enough), that it wouldn't be possible to 'wage' another cold war... After all what else is there? Advanced Medical techniques? Getting to mars?
I'm thinking more like another massing of thermonuclear weapons, jockeying for position using countries like little Risk gamepieces, and generally just being hot-headed dicks to make people miserable.
The internet, for those of us who use it, has really opened up a lot of peopls eyes. You can debunk so much of the shit you see and hear on TV just by using Google, they would like you to think that everyone who is Muslim is a fanatic... But thats not true is it
Considering China isn't a free country, you'd be hard-pressed to keep them from participating in a Cold War based on the Internet. They make the majority of the Internet illegal, and they're playing ball like the 1960s. And frankly, at least half of the internet is total bullshit. I really wouldn't put that at the top of my list in terms of "sources of irrefutable truth". Nobody would argue every Muslim is a fanatic, but few would disagree that religious zealotry is a characteristic of Middle Eastern culture.

Allah. Playing ball.

[Neo]

I could respond to this by saying "couldn't you have done what hammocksleeper did?" Note how this comparison is completely inappropriate, and by and large almost entirely meaningless. I'm not CC, you're not hammocksleeper. Moving on.

I'm thinking more like another massing of thermonuclear weapons, jockeying for position using countries like little Risk gamepieces, and generally just being hot-headed dicks to make people miserable.

Considering China isn't a free country, you'd be hard-pressed to keep them from participating in a Cold War based on the Internet. They make the majority of the Internet illegal, and they're playing ball like the 1960s. And frankly, at least half of the internet is total bullshit. I really wouldn't put that at the top of my list in terms of "sources of irrefutable truth". Nobody would argue every Muslim is a fanatic, but few would disagree that religious zealotry is a characteristic of Middle Eastern culture.

Allah. Playing ball.

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't most piracy happen in china also?

At any rate, I only meant that people CAN be more informed now then in the past. For example, Officials can say whatever they want (Iraq has WMDs and active WMD programs) but that doesn't make it true anymore. In the past the govt could tell us the sky is really pink and most americans would believe them. Now they end up having to rationalize everything and explain things.

One of my favorites from bush now is his 'guess' at how many Iraqis have died ("Oh, about 30,000") with the same inflection one might guess as to how much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood. (Or something).

Ok, that was random.

I hope I made some sense somewhere. Cold war would be harder to do in this day and age. People would either see through it, or just not give a shit.

Then again, I would love to see those old "duck and cover" videos that my mother had to watch (oh noES a nuke, but getting under your desk will save you!!!)

-Neo

[Yoda]

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't most piracy happen in china also?

At any rate, I only meant that people CAN be more informed now then in the past. For example, Officials can say whatever they want (Iraq has WMDs and active WMD programs) but that doesn't make it true anymore. In the past the govt could tell us the sky is really pink and most americans would believe them. Now they end up having to rationalize everything and explain things.

One of my favorites from bush now is his 'guess' at how many Iraqis have died ("Oh, about 30,000") with the same inflection one might guess as to how much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood. (Or something).

Ok, that was random.

I hope I made some sense somewhere. Cold war would be harder to do in this day and age. People would either see through it, or just not give a shit.

Then again, I would love to see those old "duck and cover" videos that my mother had to watch (oh noES a nuke, but getting under your desk will save you!!!)

-Neo

I'll translate what I think you're trying to say :D.

The cold war won't happen again, because part of it was propaganda. You can't really succesfully keep everyone from seeing everything due to the internet - some facts, or someone elses propaganda, will leak through. The Americans can't really, as successfully, say that the Chinese or whoever slaughter millions of people like they did with Stalin. Actually with Stalin it was probably true. You can't as easily stir up hatred for the majority of people because they have more than one source of news than the Propaganda Channel. However some lot manage to make acts of violence against a few tourists in Australia a while ago :rolleyes:

[GenocideAlive]

I'll translate what I think you're trying to say :D.

The cold war won't happen again, because part of it was propaganda.
All it takes for Cold War is one facist regieme. Then the citizens don't have normal access to information outside of the government's propaganda. No one has the power to bring proper information to them, and they don't have the power to do it themselves. One country may be "informed happy joy joy" but it doesn't make a bloody bit of fucking difference.

And in re: Stalin-level fuckups, please see Tianamen Square incident.

"Oh look! Protestors! Let's call out the tanks."

[singo]

Actually, the fall of the Berlin Wall (and fall of the Soviet Union after that) signified the end of the Cold War.

The same as the armistace in 1918 signified the end of World war one and all tensions between Britain and Germany?

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't most piracy happen in china also?

Most piracy happens out of indonesia I think. Leastways REAL piracy with ships and things does, software piracy isnt deserving of the name I dont think.

All it takes for Cold War is one facist regieme. Then the citizens don't have normal access to information outside of the government's propaganda

It doenst even need to be that extreme, just a few heavily biased mainstream Media sources can really skew public opinion about just about everything. Hell, just look at the reaction Al jazeera got in the US just for showing a few Al Quaida videos. They showed hundreds of times more than that of Coalition speeches and whatnot.

But, thanks to our wonderful free press in what is laughably known as the "civilized" world. The main impression that was got was along the lines of "Holy shit they are all a big bunch of terrorist broadcasting that!"

Now, imagine Iraq had been and was known to be a major nuclear power. (using iraq for the reason that its the easiest example, also irony).

Well, remember the massive inflammation of public opinion against Iraq at the time of the start of the mess that is there where the country used to be? Well, thats with a not particularly biased media. (As in, on average the places biased one way almost balance out with the others, the individual sources themselves take the biscuit).

Now, imagine that with a wide spread of unblanaced media. There were a lot of protesting voices this time around. And even with that all sorts of panic measures and legislation have been passed somehow tieing in with an unconnected terrrorist attack that happened years ago. Not too big a step of logic to reason that with a massive approval for extreme measures that the public would cheer laws made to arrest "troublemakers" and "enemy lovers" etc.

Hey presto, instant cold war.



As to it actually HAPPENING? nah, unlikely. The last one (cold war) cost too much. And every nation is now part of the global economy and you cant just close your borders anymore without getting left behind. No government is going to risk losing money. Politicians dont give a damn about people, but they care a lot for their wallets.

Once more money triumphs over weaponry and paranoia. People will cheer "extreme measures" given a lot of circumstances, them losing money isnt one of them.

Thank goodness for human greed eh?

[Neo]

I meant piracy as in, everything related, black market stuff, bootleg movies, software, hardware, other things, etc...

Not actual pirates commiting piracy o_O lol.

Oh, and I love how Fox, or whoever, says "And the terrorists (insurgeants whatever), released a new video to intimidate and terrorize people who watch it.... Lets take a look shall we?"

I mean cmon.

-Neo