Should students be punished for what they write on blogs?

[Fenguin]

Recently, increasing numbers of students are posting information on crushes, rumors, and gossip on their weblogs or on social-networking sites like Facebook. School authorities have begun to take advantage of the public accessibility of such sites and have on more than one occasion punished students for what they wrote.

The Wall Street Journal had an article (http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB113268572534704333-kl_gh5uVNgDPNPepwznr7DnkfW8_20051204.html?mod=blog s) on this yesterday; here are some choice excerpts:

Laura Iacovacci, a 16-year-old junior at Paramus High School in Paramus, N.J., was suspended last month after teasing a classmate during school and implying he was gay. While at home on her suspension, she posted some comments on MySpace -- including a post in which she commiserated with a friend who was paired with the boy for an activity in gym class. "Poor u … not fun not fun," Ms. Iacovacci wrote on the page. The comment has since been deleted.

Ms. Iacovacci said that when she returned to school, she was called to see the principal, Lina Gudelis, who showed her a fat stack of pages she had printed out from MySpace. Ms. Gudelis suspended Ms. Iacovacci for three more days. She wrote in a letter to Ms. Iacovacci's parents, "Please be advised that should Laura continue to participate in harassing behavior, either verbally or in writing, including websites, she will be suspended and may be transferred out of the classes she shares with the recipient of the harassment."

The unfortunate thing about commenting online is that no one really knows whether one is kidding or not. One cannot show body language online (except through the very limited medium of emoticons) and so it is hard to show the true seriousness of one's comments.

Still, some schools have run into trouble in their efforts to rein in student bloggers. New Jersey's Oceanport School District this month paid a $117,500 settlement to 17-year-old Ryan Dwyer after a district court ruled that the school district violated Mr. Dwyer's First Amendment rights by punishing him for a Web site he created in April 2003, which blasted his middle school and some faculty members. Mr. Dwyer wrote on the site, among other things, "MAPLE PLACE IS THE WORST SCHOOL ON THE PLANET!" and "The Principal, Dr. Amato, is not your friend and is a dictator." The site also included a message board where other students could post messages, but Mr. Dwyer warned students against using profanity or threatening language. Within days, though, one student posted a comment that referred to a teacher as "that dirty Jew." Another wrote of the school staff, "we gotta pull the plug on them."

The school suspended Mr. Dwyer, benched him from the baseball team for a month and excluded him from a class trip to Philadelphia. Mr. Dwyer took down the site, but he and his parents sued the Oceanport School District, saying the punishment was a violation of his First Amendment rights. Earlier this year, a district court sided with the Dwyers, ruling that Mr. Dwyer could not be held responsible for other students' comments and that his own postings, if insulting, were not grounds for punishment by the school.

There is much debate over whether content posted on blogs and such should be punishable or not; some feel that it violates first-amendment rights whereas others deem it necessary to prevent students from "harassing or bullying each other."

What do you think?

[Sikawtic]

I think what you write on the internet is none of the schools business. I mean, if it's a serious crime... like bringing a gun to school or something sure...

But suspending that kid, excluding him etc... just for having a site for people to vent about the school... that's retarded.

/what are happening to our rights?

[loads_of_fun]

I think what you write on the internet is none of the schools business. I mean, if it's a serious crime... like bringing a gun to school or something sure...i'm with Sikawtic (and every one else
that says no) that is just wrong ie. if
you see some thing that you dont like
on the web, you dont print it then try
to get ther person that put it there in
trouble...

[The_Maker]

I too am with Sikawtic, I find it ironic no one seems to care about-physical teas... excuse me "Harrassment" (at least not in my district) but they get all worked-up about just poking fun, or calling names especially to your teac.... "Superiors". The system seems to forget that physical force 95% of the time is more effective than verbal force.

This is a bunch of bull.
Now, I am not saying that the girl was right to go around posting rumors about someone being gay, but that guy who who had the site bashing the school deserves every penny of that three quarters of a million dlollars. Heck, even I call my computer class "teacher" (who isn't teaching me anything) Mrs. Humvee because her real name sounds so much like it. I really don't understand how teachers and "Superiors" seem to turn a blind eye whenever I student is bashed or bullied, but when its directed at them they need to start a cold war over it.

*Meh* :rolleyes:

[Neo]

Unless the student was accessing his/her blog from school... Then no. Nothing there should have any effect on the kid at school. Thats like opening up some kids journal (ok maybe not, but perhaps a friendly journal a kid gives around to friends), its a matter of privacy.

If i want to say that my teacher is a douche, then I should be able to say that without fear of repraisal.

Haha, this is going to be great once it gets out how bad techers and staff really are at certain schools. If there is actually a group of students who are anti-staff then that says something more about the school then the student doesnt it?

-Neo

[Nuts]

Let's not forget that these administrators are not obligated to respect freedom of speech until someone tells them different (i.e. the courts.) Freedom of speech is not an enforceable law as is, say the right to not be stabbed with a knife. ;) I would be very surprised if the ACLU did not step in on this case and make the administrators look like imbeciles.

/I don't like the ACLU 99% of the time, but on occasion they do serve a purpose.

[Neo]

More then likely the ACLU will take this up as well, Heh, I have sentiments more like yours regarding the aclu, but for things liek this...

Come on, this is just complete bull what happened to this kid.

As if its not bad enough that you've got these teachers and staff at school (some of which are apparently bad tempered or have crappy personalities) but when you goto vent about it these teachers are there reading it?

What I want to know is how these teachers/staff got a hold of this kids blog. Makes one wonder why said person was searching specifically for that kid.

Though I spose someone could've ratted him out...

-Neo

[Ender]

This happened at my school. Kid named Stefan posted on his LJ that sometimes he hates school so much he just wants to pull a Columbine, or some sort of reference to bringing in a gun. However, anyone who knows the kid instantly knows he is messing around, just because that is the way he is. It isn't like anyone else doesn't do that.

Anyway, some idiot saw it and went running to Mommy. Mommy calls school, and Stefan gets suspended for the semester, so now he can't graduate.

I, personally, think it is ridiculous. By all means, investigate, but you can't suspend a kid for something he posts outside of school! Sure, call the police, let them search his house, interview him, friends, and family, and THEN make a decision.

[Spartan-II]

Ender - I can understand them being cautious, but an entire semester? That's moronic and paranoid.

I beleive what you do outside of school should be your business, not the schools. You have the right to say on MySpace that 'Mr. Langley is an assnugget' and not get punished for it. It reminds me of last year when my friend got in a fight off school campus, and the next day he had an I.S.S. (In School Suspension) His parents were PiSsEd.

Freedom of Speech +1!!!

[Ender]

You mean -1.

[Nuts]

There's a difference between free speech and public threats. Musing about engaging in Columbine style activities is a threat, and not a very thinly veiled one at that. They can arrest a person for such comments, I would say he was lucky with a semester suspension. Of course, they likely evaluated him and deemed him to be an unlikely threat, thus the short suspension.

Your right to free speech ends when it affects another. Have you ever heard of yelling fire in a crowded theater? You can't run around making threats, no matter how insincere they may be.

[Neo]

There's a difference between free speech and public threats. Musing about engaging in Columbine style activities is a threat, and not a very thinly veiled one at that. They can arrest a person for such comments, I would say he was lucky with a semester suspension. Of course, they likely evaluated him and deemed him to be an unlikely threat, thus the short suspension.

Your right to free speech ends when it affects another. Have you ever heard of yelling fire in a crowded theater? You can't run around making threats, no matter how insincere they may be.
So now we have to censor our thoughts as well?

Almost everyone at one time or another has entertained thoughts that are less then wholesome, some have journals, or diaries... others have blogs. What right have you got to judge me solely on a comment I may have made on my blog?

Suspending a kid for saying something?

Where the hell are these tightasses when kids are getting harrassed?

-Neo

[Nuts]

Thoughts are not public record, the internet is. People publish their "thoughts" on the internet for the sole purpose of having them made public. It's not as if blogs have an assumed level of privacy. Anyone that posts on a blog should be fully aware that they will show up on google eventually.

If you want to have private thoughts, keep them in your head.

Again, harrassment is not the same as a death threat unless of course you are eing harrassed with death threats, then it's obviously serious.

Edit: And yes, if your parents find and read your journal, and it has disturbing notions of violence against another, then your parents have an obligation to look into it.

I hate to remind people, but when you're a minor you have very few rights as does an adult. Your guardians are responsible for your deeds, good or bad.

[Neo]

Thoughts are not public record, the internet is. People publish their "thoughts" on the internet for the sole purpose of having them made public. It's not as if blogs have an assumed level of privacy. Anyone that posts on a blog should be fully aware that they will show up on google eventually.

If you want to have private thoughts, keep them in your head.

Again, harrassment is not the same as a death threat unless of course you are eing harrassed with death threats, then it's obviously serious.
My point was that, this kid (in the article) said that his principal was a dictator and that his school was the worst place on earth (or w/e).

So he gets suspended, taken off the sports team, and not allowed to go on some trip?

Jesus, talk about reinforcing exactly what he said huh? Dictatorship certainly looks like it. Its really nice that the courts are siding with him (as they should...).

But teachers can see and know harrasment is going on, but they don't do anything about it?? A kid posts something like "omg my school sux" and he gest suspended for it? How the hell does that make sense at all? So we have educators browsing students blogs? (that in and of itself is extremely creepy to me)

-Neo

[kongurous]

So we have educators browsing students blogs? (that in and of itself is extremely creepy to me)

-Neo

Maybe they realize that some kids are messed up enough to want to kill others. They also realize that they may be stupid enough to put it on the internet. Why risk a life for the sake of privacy? Anyone who wants to keep private things on a blog isn't very smart in their own right, because it will end up on google, or someone will eventually find it.

[UnHoly-Assassin]

There are two kinds of people in two sides of this issue: The stupid and the Jerks.

The Stupid is the students who get caught. They should expect some sort of retaliation by school officials if insults and threats were seen from them, the least would be a cold eye from one of the teachers. However the most stupid part of it is using your real name online. If this is a issue of privacy, then at least try to protect your identity. Don't give who you're threatening/insulting your name so they know exactly who to target.

Then there are the Jerks, whom are the ones who make such a big deal of such trivial matter. Last year, my math teacher found a bunch of webspace websites (she had siblings whom are in our grade) that openly insulted her and in retaliation she vaguely threatened our entire class to beware of what we post online. However, actually punishing someone is a way of saying, "Hey, we decide what you can say and what you can't, and we decide you cannot speak ill of others. But you won't do anything about it, because you're too young to know your rights and your parents will simply accept it." This is similar to the proposal concerning a law in New Jersey in which everyone should smile and noone speak profanity in the streets. Saying "I wish he was dead" is not enough to warrent punishment. There's a difference between free speech and public threats, but there's an even bigger difference between saying something and actually acting on it. Precautions could be taken, but not at the cost in violation of the accused.

I was thinking of starting an unofficial school board where every student can speak freely. This news article only strengthens my resolve. The only way to change a wrong is to be heard, and to be heard you have to be loud. Sometimes to be loud you need the voice of others, and that is how I hope we will overcome some of the injustice that happens in our school.

[Cyberspirit]

I get NeoX's point.

If we want to investigate a comment on the blog, we should first investigate why the comment was made and whether the person's request can be carried out, rather than who made the comment and how to punish that person.

On the other hand, if students want their thoughts to be known, they should phrase them in a constructive manner.

E.g. " I wish my school canteen sells better food, not just what the staff thinks is good food " rather than " My school canteen sells rubbish and poison ! "

E.g. " I would be happy if my teachers are more understanding and calm " rather than " My teachers are monsters and deserve to die !"

If students do not want their thoughts to be known, then they should not publish them anywhere.

If they want to do something about the horrible conditions at school, they should talk to a school staff that they trust, or friends, parents, the police ...

If they feel that all adults cannot be trusted then they should not expect adults to trust them, or their children to trust them when they grow up.

Same goes to adults...

[Prozerran]

Times change.

Shouting Fire in a theater and stating your desire to kill your teacher or fellow students today are one in the same, unfortunately.

[LinkTheGameFreak]

the right to have an opinion and to express it should not be violated on the internet, regardless of who is the target (although someone might not agree with someone's stance, it's not their place to try and get the person in trouble)

take this for instance:

--------------------------------------------------------------
a poem from my LJ that I wrote (bolded added to trouble lines)

I can't think, my mind is shot, my brain is frozen, my hands are hot
My body - it responds not, to the messages sent from my cold, cold mind
I sit here, eyes half-glazed, my body not responding to the horrid pain
I've learned to deal with what I've been dealt - that just means shutting it out
Shutting out the pain, shutting out the guilt, shutting out the voices that tell me to kill
I'm happier now - I'm comfortably numb, my body not responding, the result is the sum
The sum of me being here, eyes half-glazed, writing this letter while in a daze
In a daze of stupidity, a daze of ignorance, a daze of confusion, a daze for days...
I finally wake from this comforatable slump and I leave my seat to find what's become
Of my family and loved ones - no friends for me to see, now that I've been gone for near to a week
They tell me they're fine, but what's been of me? I should have stayed numb, comfortably...
– Adrian Ramirez (12-7-04)

--------------------------------------------------------------

ok, if someone saw my LJ and told my school counselor about the poem claiming some stupid shit like I was doing drugs or feeling suicidal just from reading that, they would be dead wrong... what I write in my journal or online is my personal business, and not the school's or anyone elses but the few people I let access my journal...

now I would agree if it was something like this:

--------------------------------------------------------------

September 10th 2001

Dearest Fallllujhdglwdopmf,

tomorrow I shall crash planes into the world trade center and recieve 72 crystal clear raisins at the gates of heaven - wish me luck

- hasseed ahn been fock't

--------------------------------------------------------------

something like that is is important, but stupid little emo rants by prepubescent kids... not worth anyone's time.

that's just my opinion though. I could be wrong.

[Neo]

If you do open up an unofficial message board for the school, I would strongly suggest you make everything anonymous, that is, make sure others understand that they dont need to use thier real names, and make it plan in your terms that you will not release in personal information to the authorities (or whatever).

Also make sure that those students who do reveal themselves realize that they may want to be careful about what they say.

Otherwise, have fun :)

I remember suggesting a message board back when I was in HS working on thier website, but it didnt go over so well.

-Neo

[GenocideAlive]

There's a very fine line between what's acceptable and what's not. The Internet is a tool, and access/use of it isn't always something that falls under the blanket of the First Amendment. The problem with most is that they don't know what their rights are, so they automatically assume anything they do or say is somehow written in stone as acceptable. I'm pretty much referring to everybody but Nuts thus far; maybe him too, but I don't have enough information to make an informed accusation there. :)

Writing "my school sucks, I hate it" is perfectly acceptable and there's nothing anybody can do about it. It's expressing your opinion. However, writing something like "Mr. Jones sucks and can't teach" is pretty much borderline; you're no longer just expressing your opinion, you're attacking someone. Going as far as to say "Mr. Jones is a fag and likes to touch little boys" is clearly singling someone out and defaming their character. You can be sued for libel, whether it's some website on the Internet or a front-page newspaper article. Writing "I'm going to shoot everybody in my school in a homicial rampage" after Columbine (even going as far as referencing it) pretty much guarantees that you're either going to be arrested or expelled. It's not a joke, that's one of the early shared psychological properties of the school shooters: fantasies / expression of carrying out an armed attack. Get a fucking grip; the Internet isn't a magical do-anything say-anything land.

Additionally, if some bully at school is picking on someone and calling them names, physically harassing them, etc. then goes home and continues by posting derogatory remarks, items regarding school activities, and tacking on other such discriminatory labels (fag, etc.)...you're pretty much continuing with your in-school harassment. You're also creating a very obvious paper trail of what you're doing at school.

Feel free to disagree, but do it with something other than "int3rnet m33ns fr33 sp33ch!111!1!" It doesn't, didn't, and won't.

[Morkeliph]

I'm totally with GenAl on this one.

What I want to know is what the hell do people think suspension is going to do as a punishment? It's probably the crappiest punishment I can think of. First off, kids who get in trouble at school generally don't like school anyway (probably because they are always punished at school) and so kicking them out for a few days is almost rewarding. Secondly, kicking a kid out of school might prevent them from making further distractions, but it does nothing for the student; they lose out of education, fall further behind in their classes, get poorer grades, and will possibly lose hope of passing their classes and stop caring about school altogether. Is the social embarrassment of being suspended supposed to regulate their behavior? Hell, there are more effective ways of doing that, and for many kids suspension isn't embarrassing at all; it's cool. I never understood the logic behind suspension, other than "let's get the kid out of here so we don't have to deal with them." The only effective part of it is the correlated punishment given by the parents because their kid was suspended and is now in their hair, and this usually causes the kid to lose respect or affection towards their parents. Punishment is so poorly executed in our schools, and so counter-productive.

[UnHoly-Assassin]

Suspension is to let the kid cool down, or simply let everything settle down for a while. Also I have never seen a classmate perferr suspension; it's dreaded by almost all of us. If there isn't punishment, what is it that will keep the students in line? Contrary to popular belief, most academically poor student realizes the value of a good academic record, and will try to sustain that. It wouldn't be fair to the kid who just had the crap beaten out of him/her to have the perpetrator walking in the halls unscathed the next day.

[Morkeliph]

I'm not suggesting no punishment, but merely effective punishment. Unfortunately, my opinion of effective punishment crosses most peoples' ethical boundaries. Still, I think most kids dread suspension not because they dread being kicked out of school for a few days (do you dread a snow day?), but because they dread what mom and dad will do because they were suspended. Perhaps the reason you don't see kids who prefer suspenseion is:

They are always being suspended.
They get expelled.
They end up in juvenile detention.

[UnHoly-Assassin]

The most common reasons that students are frequently getting punished is because of Zero Tolerance Policies which I hate to the bitterest level possible (I've had very bad experiences in Middle School). Of course running during lunch shouldn't get you an In School Suspension for the last two days of school (which almost happened to me), however if a person was injuring other people as frequently as to get them suspended for half the school year, then I believe something must be done to stop them. But I won't get too far into that--it isn't really the topic at hand anyways.

Unless every student and parent is informed that they may not speak their mind negatively against any staff member, the student should not be punished. They may be questioned, and precautions may be made if the situation seemed real enough, but not enough to violate someone who can still be innocent.

[GenocideAlive]

"Zero Tolerance policies" is a little unclear. But I think it's also starting to diverge from the actual topic (not sure if that's OK).

Suspension seems like it's designed for the student, but to answer Mork's question, it's actually for the administrators. When dealing with problem students who frequently make serious infractions on rules, it can be problematic to get them out of the school system. Most teachers / administrators want these kids out of the system ASAP because they're very dangerous and even more disruptive. It becomes almost a full-time job in itself to keep up with these students, how they're breaking the rules, and how to punish them. They'd like them expelled, but don't want litigation.

So they suspend them for documented behavior correction and parental notification. A parent can never say that they didn't know that their child was misbehaving and getting in trouble at school if they've been suspended; it's neglect if you don't know where your child is. They can argue they didn't get notes sent home and that letters never arrived, etc. etc. but suspension is rather impossible to ignore. Some schools take up ISS as an alternative to suspension to address a lot of the problems that Mork mentioned, but I'm not sure how they adapt that to parental notification.

Edit: I actually think they force you to drop the kid off early/late, or something like that. Basically making it impossible for them to use public transit or alternate routes.

Anyway, hope this helps in some small way or another.

[Prozerran]

Speaking of suspension, I have a rather funny story.

I was in Music all throughout high school, played as a drummer and wrote full blown orchestrations for the group during concert time. Well, senior year, it's the end of the spring... I'm about 3 days out from graduating, and our director is involved in the chorus musical rehearsal so we were left to sit around bored out of our minds and watch. We went from the auditorium to the bandroom (which were right next to each other). Back and forth just to pass the time because we were all anxious to leave... it's 2:00, we can't leave until 3:00.

So, I went out to my car and left. So did a few others. I knew the teacher personally, we were kind of friends and still are, but he had to report my leaving early since the principle was especially hard on teachers that didn't coach sports in our school.

So, the next day I'm in Pre-calculus, and my name is called to go to the office. Busted. Ah well, no harm... I'll get a verbal reprimand or something light. No. The assistant principal offered me two options: In School Suspension or Corporal Punishment. Nice...

So I asked, "can I opt for Out of School Suspension?" He looked curiously at me.

"OSS?" He asked.

"Yeah," I said. "Can I just be suspended outright?"

"Well," he said, "I suppose you could." He gave me 2 days of OSS. My last two days of classes I didn't have to go to because of suspension. I had no tests to take, there was no harm done. I thought it quite possibly the funniest thing that's ever happened to me. Not all of my friends agreed, but I'm a college graduate now, so oh well.

[L2_1989]

You can say that. One of my classmates was a hair away from expulsion. In my school, three suspensions and you're banned for life. He was suspended twice in two weeks for not obeying a teacher and not going to class as ordered. I'm in a school of hard knocks. I'm the one who's pinned most of the time. People saying I'm gay, saying where's my ex-girlfriend to (in a teasing matter), etc. At least they don't force me to drink and/or smoke weed. I can't wait to graduate from my school, which is 18 months from now.

[GenocideAlive]

"Yeah," I said. "Can I just be suspended outright?"

"Well," he said, "I suppose you could." He gave me 2 days of OSS. My last two days of classes I didn't have to go to because of suspension. I had no tests to take, there was no harm done. I thought it quite possibly the funniest thing that's ever happened to me. Not all of my friends agreed, but I'm a college graduate now, so oh well.
I would have just taken the beating. Five minutes of pain for an hour's worth of free time seems worth it.

But a lot of people overestimate the effect of that kind of thing on your career. As long as you're sure that it's nothing deliquent and can be explained as a learning experience or REASONABLY explained as school procedure moreso than serious punishment, nobody will give a shit. College recruiters want to know if you can make the grades and do something worthwhile after graduation. Unless your test scores are abysmal and your grades suck, nobody gives a damn if you got into trouble twice during your HS career.

[Xenon]

Anything you say on the internet or in a blog can come back to haunt you.

I once said a bunch of things about someone at my work on my blog, basically venting about a bad day at work. Stupid me, I used his real name. Eventually (months later) he found out, and I was fired by the CEO. No big deal to me (I was leaving anyway) but the fact remains, there can be real-world consequences to blogging.

When I contacted a lawyer, I sued, and eventually won a wrongful dismissal case against the company and was compensated. However, the lawyers I talked to all agreed that this is one of the newest causes of dismissal (blogging) and that they are seeing more and more of this all the time as employers seek to curb your rights to freedom of expression on the internet. Particularily when talking about them.

In the end, whatever you say on the internet becomes public domain, and as such, has the potential to harm you if you're not careful.

[chibi]

I wondered how long it would be before authoritative figures would begin to view blogs written by students. What is really suprising is that to graduate from high school, my cousin who is out in B.C. has to keep a daily blog. It seems strange that the education system would tackle such an open network.